Has a psychiatrist ever became a psychologist?

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cryhavoc

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I believe that long ago, psychiatrists did not just prescribe medicine, but provided some form of therapy. My question is, are there any psychiatrists who after their residency, went back and got their Ph.D. in clinical psychology?

I'd prefer to be a psychiatrist over a psychologist, but I really dislike that someone has to see different people to receive medication and a little therapy. I'd even think a couple of months of learning a little cognitive therapy would be beneficial for psychiatrists but that's just my opinion . . .

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Psychotherapy training is standard part of psychiatry residency and many psychiatrists still provide psychotherapy.
 
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Psychotherapy training is standard part of psychiatry residency and many psychiatrists still provide psychotherapy.
Oh, good. I'm still premed and very interested in becoming a psychiatrist. I believe in the necessity of drugs for a lot of mental illnesses but I really would like to offer some form of therapy. I heavily believe drugs + therapy is more effective than either alone, and I believe many studies cite this effect.
 
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It certainly wouldn't be very efficient. I'd imagine having to be an "unlicensed" psychology student in an internship, getting paid peanuts getting supervised for clinical issues when they could be out making real money and not being so low on the totem pole. It would just make more sense to pick up some advanced training that moves you from where you're at to where you want to be, rather than starting at square 1 in another somewhat related soecialty.
 
Oh, good. I'm still premed and very interested in becoming a psychiatrist. I believe in the necessity of drugs for a lot of mental illnesses but I really would like to offer some form of therapy. I heavily believe drugs + therapy is more effective than either alone, and I believe many studies cite this effect.

I'm one of the forum's resident patients, and the majority of my treatment is Psychotherapy based (with medication only when needed). I'm in Australia, but as others have indicated the situation does seem the same in the US, as in absolutely you can be a Psychiatrist and do therapy as well. :)
 
Oh, good. I'm still premed and very interested in becoming a psychiatrist. I believe in the necessity of drugs for a lot of mental illnesses but I really would like to offer some form of therapy. I heavily believe drugs + therapy is more effective than either alone, and I believe many studies cite this effect.
This isn't really a matter of opinion or "belief." Every reasonable person in the field believes that, mostly because it is a fact. I often liken it to diabetes - diet/exercise and medications are both often necessary, and it's silly for anybody to think that a doctor should only recommend one or the other.

When you go to med school, you'll learn about how evidence-based medicine governs how we practice in any specialty. For most principles in everyday medicine, we have enough science so that we no longer have to decide what we "believe in" - usually, there are good studies that answer those questions. Such is the case for the idea of psychotherapy/meds - it is well-established in the literature that certain types of psychotherapy are effective for certain disorders, other types are effective for other disorders, and other types are really just art forms with little scientific basis. It is also well-established that certain drugs are effective for certain disorders and others are just placebos. There is plenty of overlap. Suggesting that it's a matter of "belief" cheapens the validity of the data.

That said, there are plenty of topics that have not yet been conclusively answered by the data. In those cases, we might cite "belief" based on personal experience or a theoretical understanding of the underlying neurobiology. I believe that verapamil is useful for some patients with bipolar disorder (I believe that it's probably for the patients with the calcium channel mutations that we have barely started to discover), I don't believe that Latuda is useful as a primary treatment for schizophrenia (despite the fact that the drug company tries hard to convince me to the contrary), I believe that CBT is wonderful, I believe that transcranial direct current stimulation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex will make a patient respond better to formal CBT or even informal CBT (i.e. the cognitive reframing that a depressed patient will experience in everyday life situations and interpersonal interactions), and I don't believe that Freudian psychoanalysis is likely to benefit a patient with real mental illness more than other psychotherapies.

In the real world, the reason why most psychiatrists refer a patient elsewhere for therapy is because of practicality/logistics. There are several factors at play... the first few that come to mind are:
1. Both psychiatrists and psychologists can do therapy, while only psychiatrists can do med management. You could help more patients as a psychiatrist if you focus on the med management while referring to therapists.
2. Most patients ideally say that they want therapy, but when you present them with the option of real-world psychotherapy, they find it to be too difficult and don't commit to it. If I had a nickel for every borderline patient who I actually convinced to do DBT (I always make a genuine effort) instead of trying to get me to prescribe placebos at homeopathic doses, I'd have two or three nickels.
3. You can make a lot more money by doing 15-minute med checks than by doing 1-hour psychotherapy sessions because of insurance reimbursements, unless you have a cash practice, in which case most patients won't be able to afford to see you.
4. For most psychiatric disorders, biological treatments (medications, ECT) work faster, are easier to implement, and are cheaper than psychological treatments. This creates a positive reinforcement loop in the mind of the practitioner.
5. Effective psychotherapy requires close follow-up with multiple frequent sessions, which is expensive. Many patients can't afford it, and most insurance companies have strict limitations on what they'll pay. Prozac costs $4.

That said, most good psychiatrists will do some therapy along with med management. Some psychiatrists will do purely one or the other. I've never met a psychiatrist or a psychologist who thought that only one or the other was necessary, although I have occasionally run into patients whose therapist was trying to treat something that should have been managed medically (the example that comes to mind is a patient who was floridly manic).
 
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two of my biggest pet peeves are the myths that "everyone can benefit from therapy" and that "combined treatment is better than meds or psychotherapy alone". No not everybody could benefit from psychotherapy, and of those that can the majority are not interested. The overwhelming majority of my punters are not interested in psychotherapy (lots of excuses) and many patients who come for psychotherapy, especially more open ended types are not interested in changing and just want to vent which really isn't all that helpful and therapists who allow it are enabling their patients. It takes a lot of motivational enhancement to get patients to the stage where they are able to change. Change is scary. There are some examples of where drugs can be used to facilitate the psychotherapeutic process (such as some studies looking at d-cycloserine potentiating exposure therapy for certain anxiety states or MDMA facilitated psychotherapy, amytal interviewing etc), and sometimes drugs can help dampen down intense affects and reduce avoidance allowing patients to engage more meaningfully in therapeutic work they might otherwise be too scared to engage in.

However there are no psychotherapies that are effective for mania or catatonia that I know of. While I believe some cases of "schizophrenia" can be treated with psychotherapy alone, I am entirely underwhelmed by the fairly paltry offerings of CBT for psychosis and the trumped up evidence base. Some depressive states are too severe for patients to meaningfully engage in any therapeutic work beyond behavior activation and sometimes not even that.

At the same time, I do not know of any drugs that are beneficial in the treatment of borderline personality disorder. I am unaware of any drugs that completely control PTSD although they may have a limited role in specific symptoms (nightmares, arousal, intense affects). For anxiety disorders it is clear that psychotherapies are the treatment of choice, and there is little evidence that the combination of therapy and drugs give you much bang for you buck - for instance no evidence that adding SSRI to CBT in panic disorder improves outcomes, though the converse does seem to be the case. Likewise I know of no drugs that can completely control OCD whereas exposure and response prevention often can do so. Sometimes prescription of drugs is actually therapy-interfering. benzos in the treatment of anxiety disorders is the best example, but even SSRIs and other drugs can undermine therapeutic work and lead patients to attribute improvement to drugs and this does matter because this kind of external attribution impedes recovery and often leads people becoming dependent on drugs or underestimating their own ability to manage their emotions.

Nassir Ghaemi has written about how psychiatrists have conveniently promoted this myth of combined treatment being effective as it is self-serving and justifies the existence of psychiatrists in treating problems that could be managed by psychotherapy alone and reinforces the mythical "biopsychosocial" model. Going back 25 years or so, many neurotic patients were treated with psychotherapy alone, today most of these patients are on drugs even if they are receiving therapy, and many are on drugs alone, fewer than that receive psychotherapy alone.

To answer the OP's question it would be completely stupid for someone to go and do a PhD in clinical psychology after finishing psychiatry residency. The only example I could think of is if they lost their medical license in which case they likely wouldn't be accepted onto the program. There are people who did a clinical psychology degree AND an MD concurrently but this was many years ago. I have also heard of some rare people in family medicine or non-psychiatric fields who did clinical psychology afterwards. But today this would be unheard of. The PhD programs are very competitive and most psychiatrists probably wouldn't be able to get in!
 
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Good post, Splik.

There is absolute utility for fulfilling the niche of doing quality meds and therapy.

I do both, and I enjoy both. I do it because I've prioritized it since my training, and I've sought out additional training at my own expense when I wanted more. I didn't wait for my residency at the time to offer it, or complain when it wasn't there. I also live in a city that can afford to pay me a good rate for my services.
 
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Hello, I'm an attending who generally agrees with the notion that most of our patients could benefit from some form of therapy and that combined treatment is often better than at least medication alone. Even the patients I'm only seeing for 30 minutes every month or so are assuming that I'm doing some kind of psychotherapy- Seeing someone for years serially adds up into quite a relationship!. After asking about symptoms, medication AE's, etc, there is usually plenty of room of doing an intervention that can be defined as psychotherapy. And the quality and results of psychotherapy can be difficult for us to ascertain- I know of precontemplative patients whose 'venting sessions' turned out to be quite useful over time even as I initially minimized my importance in the their lives.

I try not to get to dogmatic with psychotherapy theory and evidence base medicine, but in support of adding at least psychotherapy to pharmacotherapy, a recent recent meta-analysis (World Psychiatry. Feb 2014; 13(1): 56–67.
Adding psychotherapy to antidepressant medication in depression and anxiety disorders: a meta-analysis) concluded:

"The results also suggest that the effects of pharmacotherapy and those of psychotherapy are largely independent from each other, with both contributing about equally to the effects of combined treatment. We conclude that combined treatment appears to be more effective than treatment with antidepressant medication alone in major depression, panic disorder, and OCD. These effects remain strong and significant up to two years after treatment. Monotherapy with psychotropic medication may not constitute optimal care for common mental disorders.

Good-night!
 
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Psychiatrists have varying levels of training in psychotherapy, but the same goes for psychologists or even social workers for that matter. You won't really see the difference between what we do by looking at where we overlap. I don't prescribe so patients know what they will be getting when they come see me and that it won't be a medication. This seems to be a benefit in many cases. Although I believe that I have had more training in psychotherapy than the typical psychiatrist at my same experience level, there are still psychiatrists out there that specialize in psychotherapy and wrote some of the books that I have read on pyschotherapy. So if you want to be a better psychotherapist as a psychiatrist, you don't need to get another degree, you just need to continue to seek that experience and training out. I also think that it is essential that a psychiatrist have excellent conceptualization and therapy skills because there is much more to what is going on in the room than just a discussion of side effects and dosages. It doesn't mean that you need or should provide the psychotherapy, just that the more aware of the dynamics you are, the better for the patient.
 
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I do tons of therapy. It's the fun part of psychiatry. I do think that psychiatrists tend to be more eclectic in their approach while psychologists seem to be much more structured and manualized. Just my observation.
 
No not everybody could benefit from psychotherapy, and of those that can the majority are not interested. The overwhelming majority of my punters are not interested in psychotherapy (lots of excuses) and many patients who come for psychotherapy, especially more open ended types are not interested in changing and just want to vent...

Yep, I hear you on this. Got a friend in a similar position at the moment: Treats her therapy sessions like she's going on a date; won't talk about any of the 'icky' stuff she actually needs to work through, because why ruin a perfectly good conversation; completely misinterprets, shuts down and/or throws a hissy fit any time she's even remotely challenged on her ongoing negative thought processes or behaviours; commits to doing exactly zero amount of any actual work in therapy, and then wonders why her therapy sessions don't really seem to be getting anywhere.

:smack:
 
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Yep, I hear you on this. Got a friend in a similar position at the moment: Treats her therapy sessions like she's going on a date; won't talk about any of the 'icky' stuff she actually needs to work through, because why ruin a perfectly good conversation; completely misinterprets, shuts down and/or throws a hissy fit any time she's even remotely challenged on her ongoing negative thought processes or behaviours; commits to doing exactly zero amount of any actual work in therapy, and then wonders why her therapy sessions don't really seem to be getting anywhere.

:smack:

I would assume all of this has been pointed out to her in session
 
I would assume all of this has been pointed out to her in session

Yes it has - maybe not in the exact way I worded it, but she has been challenged on what she hopes to be able to achieve if she's not going to engage in the therapeutic process, both by myself and by her therapist. Let's just say it didn't go down too well, and resulted in an almost immediate chorus of "nobody loves me, everybody hates me". She's already been terminated and referred on to other practitioners by several of her previous therapists, but then again what else are you going to do if a patient steadfastly and repeatedly refuses to actually engage in the therapeutic process regardless of your best efforts - at the end of the day if a situation like that is allowed to continue unchecked or unchanged, in my opinion at least, it just ends up becoming a waste of time and effort for all involved.
 
Nothing against psychology. It's just not cost-effective to pursue a Ph.D. or Psy.D. in psychology if one's completed a psychiatry residency. We're talking a setback of 4 years minimum assuming one completed enough undergrad credits to go onto a masters and Ph.D. track. That's going to amount to a loss of > $600,000.

Psychologists do have some advantages over us in psychometrics and testing. In terms of psychotherapy no one really is better IMHO as a whole, though I do believe that several psychiatrists use psychotropic meds as an excuse to limit their own psychotherapy skills. Some psychologists are better at some of the physiological aspects if they've done some extensive work in the area.

It's more effective to team up with a good psychologist or take some extra classes on psychometrics if you ever wanted to know more about it, but don't expect or even think you'll be able to claim you can do an MMPI. In most states, in terms of something that's going to hold any legal water, you have to have a doctorate in psychology to do those.
 
I do tons of therapy. It's the fun part of psychiatry. I do think that psychiatrists tend to be more eclectic in their approach while psychologists seem to be much more structured and manualized. Just my observation.
The "structured and manualized" part probably has to do with them practicing things with an evidence base.
 
Psychotherapy without any structure (I assume "structure" refers to measurable short and long term goals and ongoing assessment of sx and progress?) is called coffee with a friend at Starbucks.
 
You guys don't get it. There is a difference between, "having a chat" and adapting things in the moment and allowing for fluid sessions that aren't limited by what a manual says you should do.
 
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You guys don't get it. There is a difference between, "having a chat" and adapting things in the moment and allowing for fluid sessions that aren't limited by what a manual says you should do.

I'm not sure why you think trained clinician-scientists would turn into robots when you put treatment manual in front of them? And, if they do, whose fault is that? The manuals or the clinicians? Think semi-structure interview, not structured interview...

Manuals help us (both clinican and patient) keep structure and keep us adherent to the treatment plan, as opposed meandering here and meandering there, which is naturally tempting, but generally a quite ineffecient method of administering psychotherapy.
 
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Forgot to add this. I will say that psychiatrists, in general, are clueless when it comes to DBT and the irony is we're referred all the borderlines in a hospital. On that matter, I've also seen a lot of psychologists and virtually every mental health professional completely clueless about it too unless they specifically went out of their way to get training in it!
 
Forgot to add this. I will say that psychiatrists, in general, are clueless when it comes to DBT and the irony is we're referred all the borderlines in a hospital. On that matter, I've also seen a lot of psychologists and virtually every mental health professional completely clueless about it too unless they specifically went out of their way to get training in it!

Word...
 
Forgot to add this. I will say that psychiatrists, in general, are clueless when it comes to DBT and the irony is we're referred all the borderlines in a hospital. On that matter, I've also seen a lot of psychologists and virtually every mental health professional completely clueless about it too unless they specifically went out of their way to get training in it!

We offer DBT training for fourth years. I highly recommend it based on resident feedback.
 
Psychotherapy without any structure (I assume "structure" refers to measurable short and long term goals and ongoing assessment of sx and progress?) is called coffee with a friend at Starbucks.

Supportive therapy is an exception and can be completely free flowing. You can get supportive therapy as an adjunct to med management but probably shouldn't be a primary therapy. By that, I mean you probably shouldn't have weekly 1 hour supportive therapy sessions. Those should have some semblance of structure.
 
You guys don't get it. There is a difference between, "having a chat" and adapting things in the moment and allowing for fluid sessions that aren't limited by what a manual says you should do.
I had an extremely intelligent kid I was working with tell me that I was like a therapeutic terrorist. When I asked him what he meant by that, he said, "Here I am thinking that we're just having a conversation and then zing, pow you bring it all back to my stuff." It's all about building and maintaining the rapport while knowing what you are doing and where you are going from moment to moment. Fun stuff! Not a big fan of manualized treatments either, but I do like to know what works and what doesn't.
 
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