Has anybody lied about their ethnicity or SES and was accepted into medical school because of it

[jakeislove]

Christ.... it's not like admissions is going to measure people with a brown bag. And let's not forget that there are conditions that can change your skin color. Doesn't change who you are.

It's happened before!

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[WingedOx]

So it's not possible that someone was using an answer for a while, but then reassessed whether their answer was accurate when it came time to apply to med school?

without being disingenuous and manipulative? not really.

If you've never recorded/considered yourself part of a racial and ethnic group when there was nothing on the line, you're not being ethical by checking that box when you stand to benefit.

 

[Salt Salt]

without being disingenuous and manipulative? not really.

If you've never recorded/considered yourself part of a racial and ethnic group when there was nothing on the line, you're not being ethical by checking that box when you stand to benefit.

I don't think that's true at all. There are many people, like the fair-skipped person mentioned above, who was concerned that by marking "African-American/Black," that it might appear she was trying to increase her chances of success and thus possibly upset adcoms. When there's nothing on the line, people don't give as much thought to their answer; when it actually matters, most people want to be as accurate as possible (whether it's to their benefit or detriment). I don't see anything complicated or contentious in that, so the point remains.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't think that's true at all. There are many people, like the fair-skipped person mentioned above, who was concerned that by marking "African-American/Black," that it might appear she was trying to increase her chances of success and thus possibly upset adcoms. When there's nothing on the line, people don't give as much thought to their answer; when it actually matters, most people want to be as accurate as possible (whether it's to their benefit or detriment). I don't see anything complicated or contentious in that, so the point remains.

OK, let's start with the premise that being "Black/African-American" increases the likelihood that one will be admitted controlling for GPA and MCAT. So, if a person who has always identified as "Black/African-American" decided that checking that box would hurt her because she would be judged "too pale" to have correctly self-identifying in that category, she would check the "prefer not to answer" box thus eliminating any advantage that she might receive as a "Black/African-American" but avoiding any disadvantage of being judged "too pale".

It would not be a case of being "more accurate" to check the "prefer not to answer" but to be more strategic in feeling that no advantage is better than a possible advantage that could become a liability.

Again, it is a category, not a color. (I visited with a woman yesterday who was very pale but whose nose and lips made be think that she was part African-American.)

And yet again, Hispanic is an ethnicity and Hispanics can be of any race (including Black).


And if you want to get started about being part of the community, we could have a huge discussion of whether Blacks from Africa or born of parents from Africa should be considered URM.... but let's not.

 

[Salt Salt]

OK, let's start with the premise that being "Black/African-American" increases the likelihood that one will be admitted controlling for GPA and MCAT. So, if a person who has always identified as "Black/African-American" decided that checking that box would hurt her because she would be judged "too pale" to have correctly self-identifying in that category, she would check the "prefer not to answer" box thus eliminating any advantage that she might receive as a "Black/African-American" but avoiding any disadvantage of being judged "too pale".

It would not be a case of being "more accurate" to check the "prefer not to answer" but to be more strategic in feeling that no advantage is better than a possible advantage that could become a liability.

Again, it is a category, not a color. (I visited with a woman yesterday who was very pale but whose nose and lips made be think that she was part African-American.)

And yet again, Hispanic is an ethnicity and Hispanics can be of any race (including Black).


And if you want to get started about being part of the community, we could have a huge discussion of whether Blacks from Africa or born of parents from Africa should be considered URM.... but let's not.

Good point(s). I don't mean to imply that this girl had no options; I was just using this girl as an example of why someone might want to discuss what race to put (if any) in their application when the application season rolls around. The whole reason I got on this topic was in response to the user who expressed dismay at the number of people who want help determining what race(s) to check, if any, when they do their application. All I'm saying is that I can understand why these people might want help with the answer.

 

[LizzyM]

All I'm saying is that I can understand why these people might want help with the answer.

And people should understand that appearing to falsely self-identify so as to gain an advantage may hurt an applicant unless their LizzyM score is 5 points higher than the median for that school (in which case no one on the adcom will care if they claim to be a descendant of both Pocahontas and Kunta Kinte.)

 

[Salt Salt]

And people should understand that appearing to falsely self-identify so as to gain an advantage may hurt an applicant unless their LizzyM score is 5 points higher than the median for that school (in which case no one on the adcom will care if they claim to be a descendant of both Pocahontas and Kunta Kinte.)

Again, I'm not talking about those who merely want to gain an advantage in admissions by stretching the truth. I'm talking about anyone who has a complicated racial heritage and shouldn't be expected to have their racial identity formulated to a T.

Again, this is in response to the user who expressed dismay that anyone would dare post on here looking for advice on what to call their race. Immediately, everyone's mind (including yours) jumps to the example of ORM's trying to claim some URM background just to get a leg up (granted this does characterize many if not most of the "What race am I?" posts). What I'm saying is that, for people who know their racial heritage completely or aren't multiracial, they can't imagine a reason anyone would ask for help on this topic. But they should try.

 

[Planes2Doc]

without being disingenuous and manipulative? not really.

If you've never recorded/considered yourself part of a racial and ethnic group when there was nothing on the line, you're not being ethical by checking that box when you stand to benefit.

Here's what I don't understand... There's a huge double-standard on SDN when a pre-med is "checking that box when you stand to benefit."

For instance, let's take an ORM applicant. As you know, around 90% of those accepted have volunteered. The purpose of volunteering is to show that you're altruistic, and willing to give up your time to help the underserved. So many of the ORMs put on a song and dance claiming that they want to devote their lives to helping the underserved. But once they are accepted, they are singing an entirely different tune. And you know what? It's totally acceptable!

And not only that... It's expected!

But as the late Billy Mays said, "Wait, there's more!" Once you get to know your fellow medical school classmates well, they will boast about their previous and say things like: "Haha! All that volunteering I did was such bull****!"

Now what happens when you have a black pre-med who is upper-middle class and doesn't have much connection to the African American community (think Token from South Park)? Just like ORMs who are checking the boxes they are supposed to, the black student will likely join AA-centered ECs in order to boost their application. But all of a sudden, we all frown upon this person. Of course they shouldn't be checking that box unless they want to help their fellow AA community.

And finally, let's see what kind of URM will have people screaming bloody murder! Let's say you have a pre-med who is LEGALLY Native American, but has never connected with their past roots before. Now as pre-meds, they realize the importance of checking the boxes in order to play the game. They suddenly start focusing their ECs around Native American activities. They claim that they are dying to help their fellow Native American communities, but of course have no desire to ever practice in those areas. How do we see them on SDN? We see them as worse than he who shall not be named (Voldemort)!

So what do all of these people have in common? They are all pre-meds trying to get into medical school. They are all checking boxes to help their applications in a highly-competitive process. But the URMs are viewed poorly. The well-to-do African American may be seen as an unethical applicant gaming the system. The legal Native American would likely be viewed as a scammer that should have their application rescinded because they are being completely unethical. Yet, when the ORM does pretty much the very same thing, what they are doing is not only accepted as common practice, but encouraged by fellow SDNers as they are told what boxes to check in order to strengthen their application.

The application system is flawed, and there is clearly a double-standard here which results in URMs getting unfairly attacked, while ORMs are praised for doing the same exact thing!

 

[deleted480308]

Here's what I don't understand... There's a huge double-standard on SDN when a pre-med is "checking that box when you stand to benefit."

For instance, let's take an ORM applicant. As you know, around 90% of those accepted have volunteered. The purpose of volunteering is to show that you're altruistic, and willing to give up your time to help the underserved. So many of the ORMs put on a song and dance claiming that they want to devote their lives to helping the underserved. But once they are accepted, they are singing an entirely different tune. And you know what? It's totally acceptable!

And not only that... It's expected!

But as the late Billy Mays said, "Wait, there's more!" Once you get to know your fellow medical school classmates well, they will boast about their previous and say things like: "Haha! All that volunteering I did was such bull****!"

Now what happens when you have a black pre-med who is upper-middle class and doesn't have much connection to the African American community (think Token from South Park)? Just like ORMs who are checking the boxes they are supposed to, the black student will likely join AA-centered ECs in order to boost their application. But all of a sudden, we all frown upon this person. Of course they shouldn't be checking that box unless they want to help their fellow AA community.

And finally, let's see what kind of URM will have people screaming bloody murder! Let's say you have a pre-med who is LEGALLY Native American, but has never connected with their past roots before. Now as pre-meds, they realize the importance of checking the boxes in order to play the game. They suddenly start focusing their ECs around Native American activities. They claim that they are dying to help their fellow Native American communities, but of course have no desire to ever practice in those areas. How do we see them on SDN? We see them as worse than he who shall not be named (Voldemort)!

So what do all of these people have in common? They are all pre-meds trying to get into medical school. They are all checking boxes to help their applicants in a highly-competitive process. But the URMs are viewed poorly. The well-to-do African American may be seen as an unethical applicant gaming the system. The legal Native American would likely be viewed as a scammer that should have their application rescinded because they are being completely unethical. Yet, when the ORM does pretty much the very same thing, what they are doing is not only accepted as common practice, but encouraged by fellow SDNers as they are told what boxes to check in order to strengthen their application.

The application system is flawed, and there is clearly a double-standard here which results in URMs getting unfairly attacked, while ORMs are praised for doing the same exact thing!

I have a "don't hate the player, hate the game" approach to this.

The "boxes" that give you bonus points for having enough disposable income to volunteer for 4000 hours, or having darker skin, or poor parents shouldn't exist. It should go away and this really should be a meritocracy.

But it isn't a meritocracy and those boxes exist, as such the meritocracy is no longer who is the smartest or most academically prepared. The meritocracy is those who learn the system and check the right boxes, thus playing the game better than rejected applicants. I encourage playing the game well and respect those with enough self-awareness to do so, but the game has some crappy aspects that are worth hating and changing.

 

[godawg300]

I have a "don't hate the player, hate the game" approach to this.

The "boxes" that give you bonus points for having enough disposable income to volunteer for 4000 hours, or having darker skin, or poor parents shouldn't exist. It should go away and this really should be a meritocracy.

But it isn't a meritocracy and those boxes exist, as such the meritocracy is no longer who is the smartest or most academically prepared. The meritocracy is those who learn the system and check the right boxes, thus playing the game better than rejected applicants. I encourage playing the game well and respect those with enough self-awareness to do so, but the game has some crappy aspects that are worth hating and changing.

Why should US medical school admissions be a meritocracy? It has never really been that way. If it was, they would just admit those people with the highest MCAT/GPA. Some other countries do admissions based on scores alone and then a short interview that means very little. I'm not so sure they are turning out better doctors than the US.

 

[deleted480308]

Why should US medical school admissions be a meritocracy? It has never really been that way. If it was, they would just admit those people with the highest MCAT/GPA. Some other countries do admissions based on scores alone and then a short interview that means very little. I'm not so sure they are turning out better doctors than the US.

everything in life should be a meritocracy...

 

[medic86]

everything in life should be a meritocracy...

But, instead, everything in life is who you know.

 

[llamasarefuzzy]

I have known two people who swore they were black and African American despite looking totally white. I did not know one of them well enough to press. I knew the other one somewhat well, so I did press the matter. She admitted to having a fully white European mother, but a black father. I eventually met her father, he was probably a bit lighter than Barack Obama, I might have thought he was Latino or part African or just a dark olive Italian. The daughter says he is black and descended from Africans, I would definitely buy it.

If I were in her shoes, I really don't know what I would do for med school applications. Being black helps so much, but she doesn't look black at all. She has black hair, that's it. I would probably check two boxes, "black" and "white", and hope that they didn't think I was lying about the black heritage.

It really gets rather ridiculous, classifying people by race like this. And the results actually matter. It reminds me of the European colonists who used to measure the noses of African people to classify them.

See, I am pretty much exactly the same as the person you described. I am half and half aa/ white and marked myself as such on amcas. I look white, but have grown up with both ' cultures'.

I don't feel guilty for marking African American on the application. I'm not going to ignore half of my heritage just because I look white to other people. I was truthful on my application and don't need people questioning me just because I don't look black.

 

[touchpause13]

everything in life should be a meritocracy...

I disagree. There are more factors that are important when it comes to med school admissions at least. And it's not like everyone has equal opportunity.

 

[LizzyM]

What would happen if we were to select only on the basis of MCAT and GPA?

Using AAMC Table 24 and AAMC Table 25 for all Black, Hispanic and Native American (URM) applicants and accepted applicants we see that over a 3 year period there were 61005 acceptees and 16,403 (26%) were URM.

If we were to ignore the mission of the HBCUs and the Puerto Rican schools and admit at all schools solely on MCAT with GPA coming into account only for the lowest acceptable MCATs, we'd admit everyone with an MCAT of 33 or higher and everyone with a MCAT of 30-32 with a gpa of 3.4 or higher as well as 80% of those with a GPA of 3.20-3.39 to come up with three classes totaling 61,005.

The number of URM admitted under this system would be 2,750 (4.5%). URM would be more profoundly under-represented in medicine as time went on under this system.

DISCUSS.

 

[deleted480308]

I disagree. There are more factors that are important when it comes to med school admissions at least. And it's not like everyone has equal opportunity.

attempting to guess who had the hardest life is ridiculous.....results is what matters and everyone has the same legal right to produce results

What would happen if we were to select only on the basis of MCAT and GPA?

Using AAMC Table 24 and AAMC Table 25 for all Black, Hispanic and Native American (URM) applicants and accepted applicants we see that over a 3 year period there were 61005 acceptees and 16,403 (26%) were URM.

If we were to ignore the mission of the HBCUs and the Puerto Rican schools and admit at all schools solely on MCAT with GPA coming into account only for the lowest acceptable MCATs, we'd admit everyone with an MCAT of 33 or higher and everyone with a MCAT of 30-32 with a gpa of 3.4 or higher as well as 80% of those with a GPA of 3.20-3.39 to come up with three classes totaling 61,005.

The number of URM admitted under this system would be 2,750 (4.5%). URM would be more profoundly under-represented in medicine as time went on under this system.

DISCUSS.

I still think that life should be based on who achieves the highest level of excellence, if that means we end up with a medical industry that is 95% asian......then good for them for learning more than the rest of us

to alter the academic standards to achieve racial parity is not consistent with the idea of achieving the most capable group of students

 

[touchpause13]

^Exactly LizzyM

Also I'd seriously have issues with the quality of physicians that type of system would produce. Just having high stats doesn't mean that you would be a good doc. I think we all know students who had great stats but terrible personalities

 

[touchpause13]

attempting to guess who had the hardest life is ridiculous.....results is what matters and everyone has the same legal right to produce results



I still think that life should be based on who achieves the highest level of excellence, if that means we end up with a medical industry that is 95% asian......then good for them for learning more than the rest of us

to alter the academic standards to achieve racial parity is not consistent with the idea of achieving the most capable group of students

I'm not talking about guessing who has it worse, I'm talking about taking into account people's lives and that there are more valuable attributes to a physician than just their MCAT or GPA.

I believe that a system like you would want wouldn't produce the most capable students for this reason. Capable of what is my question. Capable of taking tests maybe, but capable of caring for the general population - no way jose.

 

[deleted480308]

^Exactly LizzyM

Also I'd seriously have issues with the quality of physicians that type of system would produce. Just having high stats doesn't mean that you would be a good doc. I think we all know students who had great stats but terrible personalities

it's a straw man, no one is saying let in a 45mcat serial killer....of course you interview and make sure the person is able to function socially....but race/SES is not a part of that consideration

 

[touchpause13]

it's a straw man, no one is saying let in a 45mcat serial killer....of course you interview and make sure the person is able to function socially....but race/SES is not a part of that consideration

Read my above post.
There are other important factors that contribute to being a good doc besides academics

 

[deleted480308]

Read my above post.
There are other important factors that contribute to being a good doc besides academics

i maintain thar race and SES are not among those factors

 

[touchpause13]

i maintain thar race and SES are not among those factors

We are just going to disagree on that

 

[WingedOx]

everything in life should be a meritocracy...

It is a meritocracy, just not the merits pre-meds think are the be all and end all.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Read my above post.
There are other important factors that contribute to being a good doc besides academics

This is quite true, but it sucks when these factors are strategically doctored in order to make an applicant appear to be someone who they are not (no pun intended).

 

[Goro]

The process IS meritocratic (although not 100% so)! What hyperachievers consistently fail to recognize is that merit includes more than just GPA and MCAT scores. The road traveled is also part of merit. As I like to to point out, stats get you to the door; ECs get you through, and who you are and what you do with that is indeed an EC.

I am amused that people constantly piss and moan about URMs, and no one ever says a peep about legacy interviews and admissions.

everything in life should be a meritocracy...

 

[touchpause13]

The process IS meritocratic (although not 100% so)! What hyperachievers consistently fail to recognize is that merit includes more than just GPA and MCAT scores. The road traveled is also part of merit. As I like to to point out, stats get you to the door; ECs get you through, and who you are and what you do with that is indeed an EC.

I am amused that people constantly piss and moan about URMs, and no one ever says a peep about legacy interviews and admissions.

Or people from rural areas, or interesting life experiences, or any other factor you can't see by looking at someone. hmm....

 

[drjay16]

everything in life should be a meritocracy...

The world and life has never been that way.....

 

[victoryXfailure]

In my opinion, the community that you identify with doesn't matter. It's the community that identifies with you that's important. After all, the whole point of having minorities in medicine is for better community outreach. If you're perceived by others as being 100% white, even if you're only 75%, then you're not going to be much more effective than a typical white doctor at building rapport/trust with the African American community.

If we go with what community identifies with you then we may have issues for a lot of multiracials because the community that identifies with you, you might have no connection with or understanding of at all.

I mean I am half Caucasian and half Vietnamese-Chinese. I grew up speaking Vietnamese fluently (my Chinese sucks worse than a four year old). I mark this on all the forms growing up, or just put other when it was check only one. I don't speak a lick of Spanish, but working in the pharmacy day in and day out patients ask my why I don't speak Spanish or learn my culture because they believe me to be Hispanic. To everyone i have encounter and they haven't gotten to known me personally they believe me to be Hispanic. If I go into an interview what group would the interviewer be able to think would identify with me? What benefit would I give the school for being so racially ambiguous?

(Either way I think my issue as being mistaken for Hispanic might be due to my upbringing in low SES in the Bronx being surrounded by Hispanic and AA culture and picking up a lot of things from my friends. Forget about being white, I didn't accept being part white until much later in high school.)

 

[Planes2Doc]

This isn't about medical school, but a good read:

http://themash.com/blog/news/2012/11/15/college-applications-mixed-race-ethnicity/

 

[beachside]

If we go with what community identifies with you then we may have issues for a lot of multiracials because the community that identifies with you, you might have no connection with or understanding of at all.

I mean I am half Caucasian and half Vietnamese-Chinese. I grew up speaking Vietnamese fluently (my Chinese sucks worse than a four year old). I mark this on all the forms growing up, or just put other when it was check only one. I don't speak a lick of Spanish, but working in the pharmacy day in and day out patients ask my why I don't speak Spanish or learn my culture because they believe me to be Hispanic. To everyone i have encounter and they haven't gotten to known me personally they believe me to be Hispanic. If I go into an interview what group would the interviewer be able to think would identify with me? What benefit would I give the school for being so racially ambiguous?

(Either way I think my issue as being mistaken for Hispanic might be due to my upbringing in low SES in the Bronx being surrounded by Hispanic and AA culture and picking up a lot of things from my friends. Forget about being white, I didn't accept being part white until much later in high school.)

I think it's a bonus that you can pass as hispanic. To a hispanic patient, you'll be a hispanic doctor. To a Vietnamese patient, you'll be a Vietnamese doctor! Win-win.

 

[Promethean]

I was tempted not to claim my Native American heritage because I was afraid that I would be perceived as attempting to obtain some advantage by doing so. But I couldn't make myself check White or "prefer not to answer," because one of the greatest injustices done to NA folks is the systematic erasure of our heritage. It felt like acceptance of the forced assimilation that has been inflicted on NA cultures. Even the instructions on the form reinforce this. To check any of the other boxes, the standard is whether you have ancestors of that race/ethnicity. For NA, the standard is having ancestors of that race/ethnicity AND affiliation with a recognized tribe. That, right there, is straight up racist. So, I checked the boxes based on ancestry alone.

So, I guess, if I were being judged strictly by the rules for filling the form, that would mean that I "lied" about my ethnicity and was accepted. I am not actively affiliated with the tribal group since I didn't seek membership prior to turning 18 (for various personal reasons.) The tribal constitution absolutely bars adults from joining. A difference of politics does not invalidate my birthright, to claim my heritage and my history. I don't want special treatment based on my self-identification, nor do I believe that I have received it, since my application was a strong one even without any URM boost. What I insist upon is the right to self-identify officially in the same way that I do privately.

 

[Promethean]

I think it's a bonus that you can pass as hispanic. To a hispanic patient, you'll be a hispanic doctor. To a Vietnamese patient, you'll be a Vietnamese doctor! Win-win.

No. Not win, win.

You know, some people actually do care, deeply, about who they are and how they are perceived. It can be pretty hurtful to be mistaken for something that you are not, even if there is a benefit in that.

 

[Planes2Doc]

So what happens if a URM applies but is not connected with their respective group nor has partaken in any activities? How would that be viewed by ADCOMs?

 

[beachside]

You know, some people actually do care, deeply, about who they are and how they are perceived. It can be pretty hurtful to be mistaken for something that you are not, even if there is a benefit in that.

Oh get over yourself. If your skin is really that thin, you don't belong in medicine.

 

[LizzyM]

So what happens if a URM applies but is not connected with their respective group nor has partaken in any activities? How would that be viewed by ADCOMs?

What's the applicant's MCAT and GPA? It's all going to hinge on that. And if "partaken in any activities" you mean a list of experiences that is completely blank, well, I think you know how that's going to be perceived regardless of race and ethnicity.

 

[Planes2Doc]

What's the applicant's MCAT and GPA? It's all going to hinge on that. And if "partaken in any activities" you mean a list of experiences that is completely blank, well, I think you know how that's going to be perceived regardless of race and ethnicity.

Whoops, I didn't mean blank. I meant a URM not partaking in any URM-related activities associated with their cultural group.

 

[LizzyM]

If a URM has grades and scores that puts him (or her) in that sweet spot of GPA >3.39 and MCAT > 29, then there may not be any issue with activities that are not related to their ethnic community (eg community service at a nursing home, work as an EMT, research on zebra fish, playing trumpet in marching band, all the usual stuff....)

 

[victoryXfailure]

I think it's a bonus that you can pass as hispanic. To a hispanic patient, you'll be a hispanic doctor. To a Vietnamese patient, you'll be a Vietnamese doctor! Win-win.

True this does make to some benefits.

Oh get over yourself. If your skin is really that thin, you don't belong in medicine.

Until you completely miss how sensitive the race/ethnicity issue actually is. Thick skin or not I still feel hurt for being perceived as an outsider at times no matter what group I am with. But, that is just something that made me have to try to fight to prove myself in more ways than one. I am tougher because of it. Still, it is human nature to want to have a feeling of belonging in some way, shape, or form. I don't think anyone wants to be seen as an outsider all their lives.

 

[IslandStyle808]

If you choose not to identify, it will neither help nor hurt.

There does not appear to be a shortage of Asian physicians; if a school believed that its area had an under-representation of some race or ethnic group and that shortage was having a negative effect on the diversity of the student body or the ability to serve patients of that race/ethnicity in its catchment area, then the school can define URM as it sees fit and take action to increase the number of students/graduates of that race/ethnicity.

This is how it should be. Based on the needs of the population in the local area and not just based on diversity for the sake of diversity.

 

[touchpause13]

This is how it should be. Based on the needs of the population in the local area and not just based on diversity for the sake of diversity.

Uhhh pretty sure that's how it works now....

 

[IslandStyle808]

Uhhh pretty sure that's how it works now....

I just wonder if this is true across the board for all medical schools? It just doesn't feel like that sometimes.

 

[deleted480308]

I just wonder if this is true across the board for all medical schools? It just doesn't feel like that sometimes.

I guarantee Vermont doesn't have a stated goal of reaching a 99% white enrollment to achieve representative diversity

 

[ThatcherChaudhry]

I don't think it's fair that ORM's who have a 30 MCAT and 3.7 have a hard time getting into Medical School when a person that identifies as an AA has a 30 MCAT and a 3.7 and gets into the top 20. And stats that would get ORM's ruled out like a 28 MCAT and a 3.5, would probably get a URM into a nice mid-tier.

I think it's foolish to change the merit system. A person with those stats is undeserving of that seat, imo. Sure, we create doctors for those communities, but one could definitely argue, less capable doctors.

I'm waiting for the day when the primary application has no race option, so that people are interviewed blind, and race is taken out of the process, because it has nothing to do with who should get a spot, it shouldn't be on an adcom's mind at all.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't think it's fair that ORM's who have a 30 MCAT and 3.7 have a hard time getting into Medical School when a person that identifies as an AA has a 30 MCAT and a 3.7 and gets into the top 20. And stats that would get ORM's ruled out like a 28 MCAT and a 3.5, would probably get a URM into a nice mid-tier.

I think it's foolish to change the merit system. A person with those stats is undeserving of that seat, imo. Sure, we create doctors for those communities, but one could definitely argue, less capable doctors.

I'm waiting for the day when the primary application has no race option, so that people are interviewed blind, and race is taken out of the process, because it has nothing to do with who should get a spot, it shouldn't be on an adcom's mind at all.

Taking race out of the equation would make it very, very easy to discriminate against blacks and Asians.... and no one could prove it.

The proof that a certain academic performance is sufficient for success in medical school is in passing the boards, graduating in 4 or 5 years (some of the weakest students take 5 years but so do some of the strongest as they take a year off for research or another degree), and achieving a license to practice medicine. If that is the measure, then anyone with a MCAT of 26 regardless of gpa has the academic chops to succeed as well as anyone with an MCAT of 36.... we would need to have higher cut points (3.4/30) just because there aren't enough seats. Should we exclude some people with rare experiences (living in America as a URM) because although they have the talent to successfully complete medical school, that someone else is considered "more worthy" based on just a test score.

And consider that going by just scores, or just scores and grades, would mean admitting quite a few misanthropes and social duds who will be unable to connect with patients and other team members.

 

[deleted480308]

I am amused that people constantly piss and moan about URMs, and no one ever says a peep about legacy interviews and admissions.

No one ever defends legacy admissions either...next time someone does, send me a note and I'll piss and moan about it

 

[deleted480308]

Taking race out of the equation would make it very, very easy to discriminate against blacks and Asians.... and no one could prove it.

. Your system discriminates against asians right now, it's proven and admitted and even defended openly as ok by a lot of people on this board

 

[Goro]

When Asians make up ~40% of medical students, as they do at some schools I know, one can hardly say that they are discriminated against. They are, in fact, the most successful minority in the history of this country.

. Your system discriminates against asians right now, it's proven and admitted and even defended openly as ok by a lot of people on this board

 

[deleted480308]

When Asians make up ~40% of medical students, as they do at some schools I know, one can hardly say that they are discriminated against. They are, in fact, the most successful minority in the history of this country.

If you (as a member of admissions) set up a system that cuts their odds of acceptance by half just by them checking "asian" on their application you are absolutely discriminating...

 

[Goro]

As we pointed out before, and on multiple occasions, admissions aren't about stats only. 4.0/36 automatons are a dime-a-dozen, too.

If you (as a member of admissions) set up a system that cuts their odds of acceptance by half just by them checking "asian" on their application you are absolutely discriminating...

 

[Promethean]

Oh get over yourself. If your skin is really that thin, you don't belong in medicine.

I would say that having a strong sense of identity and personal values are pre-requisites, rather than disqualifiers, for a successful career in medicine.