Discussion in 'Allopathic' started by PrideNeverDie, 02.24.12.
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I was just being sarcastic and beating a dead horse....
This is almost certainly a waste of time, but go ahead. Supply the quotes and we'll discuss...
All of 3 posts into the thread:
Oh, I thought we were talking about specific examples from past experiences (not getting into more competitive schools based on race, etc), not generalities. Nevermind, if that's what we're talking about then you're right.
Visited UCLA School of Medicine a couple weeks ago. The Dean of the Medical School is black and the Dean of Admissions is black. However, not one of their first year students were black
Clearly discrimination is at work here.
If my Anatomy professor is from Harvard, and my Physiology professor is from the University of Dundee, why are there no Harvard or Dundee students in my class?
Diversity is worth it.
Maybe my lackluster high school history background is to blame, but I just realized for the first time that my ancestors may have been slaves... really interesting to think about.
Parachutes are unnecessary. (n=1)
Affirmative Action is meant to address the issue of whether the workforce, etc. reflects the population at large, or whether it is seriously skewed--particularly in areas where there were in the past explicit policies of exclusion. It is not a policy of "reparations" (which is another issue).
On "colorblind racism":
It doesn't matter how AA factors into admission committee decisions because in reality it varies from school to school. Either way the simple fact is this: Not having a set criteria upon which all applicants are judged makes some candidates that are admitted less qualified than others if skin color trumps dedication and hard work that got someone a 3.8 GPA and 30+ on the MCAT. Case and point: A Latina girl in my first year of medical school was sitting with myself and 7 other classmates in a Patient Care class when the subject of necessary MCAT scores for admission to MD programs (there were a few minority prospective students in the room to which this was conversation was aimed) came up. All the other students in the room happened to be Caucasian (unusual because my class is quite diverse) and around the table they all mentioned how you need at least a 30 for admission to my particular Medical School. In response to this the Latina girl laughed and said "Well I can tell you I didn't even get close to a 30 and I got in my first try." No one said a word, but you can guess what people may have wanted to say. It's complete BS that this goes on. It is a sad truth for student applicants, but what's worse is that it may indeed prove to be an even sadder reality for patients that fall under the care of these future doctor's who may or may not be worthy of being in that position to begin with.
Thanks... I know it's insane, but it gives me some small amount of comfort when I fly to know that there is a tiny chance I would survive if the plane broke apart in the air (I think these kinds of thoughts whenever the plane hits turbulence and the wings wobble and creak).
Well I'm white and I had an undergrad gpa that by all rights should have kept me out, but I'm in. Not on my first try but whatever.
By your logic patients should be terrified of me - or rather if I were black or latino they should have been terrified of me, but since I'm not I'm probably a smart guy who just had a bad break. Right?
Easy killer, not sure why the first reaction anyone has to someone disagreeing with AA is to imply (or state overtly) that the poster is racist.
i didn't take from your post that you were racist. Rather, i took from it that you didn't think the large number of med students with MCATs < 30 shouldn't be allowed in med schools.
It wasn't my post, but thanks for not jumping on the "They must be racists!!11" train.
By my logic people that are let into medical school should all meet a concrete benchmark that is colorblind. Of course you will have people that score extremely high on the MCAT and have a 4.0 GPA and will be terrible doctors, but according to many physicians on admissions at my school this is why we interview applicants (to weed out the people with personality red flags). IMO standardized tests are of zero indication as to how good a physician you will be, but this is a standard to which all applicants are held and therefore it is my opinion that all applicants should be judged in an equitable way (not adjusted). I am sorry you misconstrued my statements as racist scarshapedstar. That would be grossly incorrect. However, the response you errantly posted is why most people keep their opinions to themselves. Let's be civil here.
Does your school deliberately pick white students over other students with better scores? Because unless they do, I'm afraid you really don't have a point.
There is no "Uniformity" movement... there is, however, a "Diversity" movement. And anyway you slice it, it is racist. You can say deliberately selecting under-represented minorities is a good thing because minority patients prefer having a doctor of their same race. How is that not incredibly racist? Or you can say individuals of a certain race are more likely to practice in certain areas. Again, racist. It's no different than looking at a person of a certain race and assuming they are more likely to commit a crime than someone of a different race. You can't use statistics to make prejudiced judgements in one scenario and then label people racists for doing it in another because it doesn't fit your agenda.
Giving individuals privilege over others due to the color of their skin is racism in its purest form. It doesn't matter what happened the past, principles are principles and racism is racism. You don't cure it by implementing more of it, because then you just create a vicious cycle. As a result of these AA policies, people see others being promoted ahead of them and automatically assume it's because of the color of their skin. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. But regardless it just breeds more racial tension and continues to set us back as a nation.
Great points, also made me realize that the common argument for AA that we need to recruit URM's to serve minority populations that prefer physicians of their own race is completely and utterly racist, and actually absurd if you think about it for a second. If you allow that kind of reasoning to influence your admissions criteria, what's stopping you from recruiting white medical students in greater numbers to treat poor, underserved white communities that prefer physicians of their own race? If there are underserved white families in neighborhoods with zero nearby white physicians, it would be perceived as quite racist for them to avoid medical attention by members of other races. Why is the reverse not true?
white students are already enrolled in med school in great numbers...
Our job is to take care of patients, not to judge them. If patients feel they can not trust the medical system (which is already rife with racial disparities), we cannot do our job effectively. Ever have to take care of someone who believes i holistic medicine more than western medicine? very difficult and frustrating. Ever have to care for an autistic kid and have parents who felt abandoned by the medical system? It's a much different experience than one where they feel safe. If they go to a practice where they at least feel respected, they're fine.
Not to mention, I think it's a little bold to call racism what is actually better described mistrust based on recent racial oppression, especially if you can't empathize with them. Not saying they're right to think that, but that would be like calling a holocaust survivor racist for not trusting German doctors who had nothing to do with it and weren't even around then.
Honestly, a reason to expand diversity in medicine is because historically these groups are blocked out of medicine based on educational socioeconomic oppression that exists to today. Perhaps a different means must be used, but it sounds very crybabyish to cry about alternative measures used to assess whether someone should become a doctor. It's used all the time. life experience, prior jobs, research, volunteering, LoR's, hell even nepotism is a standard practice (oh both your parents are doctors and they went here? good, you ahve a step up) for assessing admissions
Holocaust, eh? And this thread ends, as all inevitably do, with Godwin's Law.
By the way, "crybabyish to cry about"... really? I never once complained about my individual situation. The admissions process has gone better for me personally than I could have ever hoped, and I have nothing to complain about. This is a discussion about a national policy that systematically implements racist decision-making into our educational system. Don't assume things about people you have never met.
Godwin's Law? I never complained about Nazi's. I'm just pointing out how a formerly oppressed group would feel uncomfortable in the care of people similar to former oppresser's. And how it would simply be ignorance to label this behavior as racist. If you don't like people labeling you and others racist for opposing policies that take URM status into effect, then don't call blacks racist for not trusting white people given what life was like 20+ years ago. Simply realize that you shouldn't be judging people like that just as you don't want yourself or others on your side to be judged as racist.
If you want to get upset because I think it's crybabyish to complain about policies that take into consideration things other than test-taking ability, be my guest. I also think it's crybabyish to complain about people getting in to med school because their parents are doctors. Just so you know, I'm not a URM, and I don't have relatives who are doctors, and I'm not being called racist by anyone. Nor am I calling anyone here racist. Just pointing out irony that you're falling prey to the "the other side" is racist argument just as much as the people you're arguing against.
Fair enough. The Godwin's Law bit was in reference to your Holocaust comment, but your argument doesn't really rest on that comparison so it probably wasn't a fair use. Darn it, and I was hoping to cut this thread short so I could get some studying done...
"Our job is to take care of patients, not to judge them"... what a nice sentiment. So do you say the same thing when an old white guy comes in and refuses to be seen by the "colored" doctors? I sure hope not. I sure hope you "judge" them as being racists. Of course, it shouldn't have any effect on the quality of your care, but to try to act like you're oblivious to it is flat out laughable. Anyone who comes out and says they'd rather be treated by "X" doctor because they are the same race as them is acting in a racist manner, and you can dance around the subject and try to make excuses all you want but it doesn't change this fact.
Yes, different groups of minorities have had awful things happen to them in the past. But that doesn't mean we should sit here and say its okay for them to not trust people that had absolutely nothing to do with these things. If you do this, you open a Pandora's box where you start justifying racism in certain scenarios, and the cycle just continues. The fact is, racism in any scenario is wrong. My mother was held up at gun point in a parking garage by a black male, and my father was shot at by two black males while driving (the only reason why he isn't dead is because he drives with his car seat extremely far back and therefore the bullet crossed right in front of his face instead of traveling through his skull). So does that give them the right not to trust black people? To refuse to be seen by black doctors? Of course not. There's no excuse to judge anyone based on the color of their skin, whether it's an admissions committee, a patient, or any other scenario you can dream up.
You comparing someone's race, which is something they are born with and have absolutely no control over, to things like life experience, prior jobs, research, volunteering, etc. is flat-out nauseating. It boggles my mind that someone who is obviously intelligent enough to be in medical school cannot see how incredibly wrong that is. We should be evaluating these students based on the things they've accomplished and the things they've physically done that prove they will make good physicians. And what was your point in bringing up nepotism? To justify one massively unfair practice in medical school admissions by bringing to light another? To say "Oh well, the system is already flawed, who cares?"
I'm sorry if it feels like I'm attacking you here, but this statement in bold is exactly the kind of stuff that just drives me nuts.
How can you use such flawed logic? One person is saying race should NOT be a factor in a decision, and the other is saying it should be the only factor. They are literally polar opposites.
That's because affirmative action was banned in California after voters voted on a referendum. I'd imagine a larger portion of the class is asian.
Yup, this is true. AA is banned in two states now. It should be 50.
Note to self: If I every apply to Medical schools I will put that I am Black even though I am White. Why doesn't everybody just do that? There is no certificate proving the amount of melanocytes/melanin in your skin per square inch. Beat the moron bureaucrats at their own game and abuse the loophole so it gets closed.
How?!? Did she land on a bag of cotton candy? No comprendo.
Until you get interviewed?
I sense... Ron Paul bumper sticker...
Ron Paul is an MD, maybe he used that method...
Dont have time to read the whole thread... racial preference is just another form of racism (maybe call it "reverse racism?").
Yes, he is an MD and he knows better about what's going on than most career politicians.
This is the biggest circle jerk of chicken $hittery I have ever seen. If you're white or asian and well to do, just man up and get a 35+/3.75+ on your MCAT/GPA and get in. Realize what it is and that complaining here will not do anything. If you really hate it, just get into politics and change it.
Personally, I think the idea of AA is silly and only economic disadvantage should be considered. I have a lot of poor asian friends and a lot of white trash friends as well that could use a hand up (not a hand down). The reality is, percent wise, more African Americans are socioeconomically disadvantaged than whites so by keeping this policy, you would benefit all.
Anyway, I have no clue why I posted other than the fact I don't like Chicken $hittery.
EDIT: Maybe if all the people bit<hing who didn't get in weren't such lazy, pathetic, blood sucking leeches, they would get off their rears and work HARDER to get in. Get some balls people. If you're too chicken **** and you can't even compete with a little affirmative action despite not coming from a disadvantaged background, then too bad. If some disadvantaged minority wants to compete with me with a handicap, bring it, because I know I will.
PS: above is all in partial jest.
Give me a ****en break. You think its any easier being an first generation asian american? This country gives hand outs to those who whine the loudest. Then **** on the ones who try to work hard and make a decent living. There is a reason why medical schools put asians at a higher standard. It's racism pure and simple.
I never said anything was easy, I just said man up. First generation Ayrab here and my pops drives a cab for a living so I know what its like to pull your bung hole up by your boot straps while everyone thinks your family is full of "Tourorists" cuz your mom dresses differently and your dad has an accent.
Good luck with your Journey, just remember, those brick walls with razor wires that they put up aren't there to keep you out, just to see how bad you want it. If your smart enough to throw a mattress over the razor wire and climb the wall, you will get in. All I am saying is no need to whine (I've done my fair share of it, and it didn't help me one bit), just kick some rear and get in.
I got a kick out of your candor.
Look at the bright side. As an Asian, once you've made it through med school, your patients will have confidence that you've been vetted based on your own diligence, rather than admitted just because you were a "good enough" candidate with the right skin hue (or preferred undercarriage).
Haha, misread that as parents initially. I was like, all Asian parents would think that...
It's great to see this wonderful thread still going.
Keep up the good work!
Its just amazing to see all these "smart", "intelligent", "future leaders" are so narrow minded think of diversity and the root of affirmative action as only being about race. While race is a factor. Gender, religion, socioeconomic status etc are all taken into consideration. Speaking about taking things too far in admissions, check out the first paragraph of an interview invite that was sent to me from a rather popular school... let me know what you think.
The ########## College of Medicine's Medical Student Selection Committee
has reviewed your application and invites you to the College of Medicine
to interview with faculty.Our records indicate that you have self-identified
your racial and/or ethnic background as one traditionally under-represented
in medicine. Diversity is one of the core values of the College of Medicine.
Accordingly, we would like to extend to you a special invitation to visit on
the following date of the interview season: ######. The activities of the
day will include interaction with both our Associate Dean for Diversity as
well as current medical students from groups under-represented in medicine.
Gender is no longer an issue. ~50% of medical graduates are female. The point we are making is that Affirmative Action should not be about anything except your socioeconomic status. If you favor females then that is by definition sexism. If you favor certain races, then that is racism. Can you tell me that it is not?
Lololol I guess I'm sexist then.
Gender isn't an issue? Ok point taken... however how did we get to this point? They saw an issue with the way things were being done, an inequity, and started enrolling more females. I'm not saying you're point isn't valid about socioeconomic status just in left field.... but still in the ballpark. Admissions committees are trying to have their schools mirror society, which is a daunting task. Its obviously a flawed system (and yes this is coming from a black male) but I don't see an easy way out of this one because whichever way you turn this rubix cube someone is going to be screwed. And yes, that always seems to be the middle class white male with solid stats under the current system or your proposed one. In addition, prejudice would be a better term for what you are referring to rather than racism.
Well, I guess I needn't have worried about this thread dying anytime soon. *sigh*
aside from all of the other fun stuff happening here in this thread - the only defensible position FOR affirmative action is producing physicians with common interests to patient populations who are under served medically. If, however it was to be shown that such physicians are no more or less likely to serve these populations then AA loses its only reasonable argument and the reality of the situation becomes this: we are selecting physicians with lower measures of talent specifically because of skin color. That sounds like harm in my book.
And this is the problem. It is only perpetuating the fact that you used a crutch to get into medical school. People may not tell you that they think you got in because of AA but some will certainly think it. Do you want people subtly looking down on you? Or do you want an even playing field where the best of best get in?
Construction workers are like ~95% male, should we start programs that put a quota on how many females must be hired? Nail salon workers are ~95% female, should we put a quota on how many males must be hired? See how ridiculous that sounds? That is how I see AA.
Prejudice, discrimination, racism, call it what you want. It is still giving preference to people of one skin color and obstructing other ethnic groups from getting in with the same stats (Asians).
I don't bitch about the fact that 80% or whatever of NBA basketball players are black. And they make way more $$$ than any doctors. So whats with the blatant double standards?
See this is why this country is slowly going down the drain. It caters to people that yell the loudest and doesn't really cater to the ones that actually have something intelligent to say.
I'd say it's more like the middle class male with mediocre/bad stats, given that most med students are... drum roll... white and middle class with solid stats.
Separate names with a comma.