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has racial preference in admissions gone too far?

Discussion in 'Allopathic' started by PrideNeverDie, Feb 24, 2012.

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  1. Nel G

    Nel G

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    Personally I don't care what other people think because I know that my 32 MCAT, 3.8 GPA undergrad and my grad work are way above anything that's on the chart that begins this post. I worked my ass off to make sure that I was one of the best applicants and not just the best black applicant, and earned my spot.
    One of the issues is that doctors have a special place in society and because its such a glorified job (probably over glorified) its scrutinized alot more closely than construction workers or nail techs. People have been raging against AA since the beginning but they really haven't said alot and have not proposed any plausible

    All I'm saying is that the system is flawed but your proposed fix will create many issues as well. I can already hear the rich kids screaming discrimination. And since they have the money to sue the schools; using socioeconomics probably won't happen. Some schools have started looking into what they refer to as a holistic application review, although shouldn't already be doing that, but let's see how that works out.
    Look up the meaning of the word sexism and racism compared to prejudice or discrimination and you'll see why I suggested the change in your wording.
  2. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    Whenever I see someone post their stats on SDN in an argument

    I'm just like
    [​IMG]
  3. Nel G

    Nel G

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    :smuggrin: Nice one. I guess I brought out the best in you
  4. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    That's great and I commend you on your hard work. All I'm saying is that you don't walk around with your stats on your forehead so people might have thoughts in the back of their mind that maybe you got in because of a certain government program. Should you have to suffer through that? I guess if you don't care then it doesn't matter.
  5. asmith1121

    asmith1121

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    This is beyond ridiculous. There are 6 African American students in my class of 200 and 6 Hispanics. Seriously- you want to blame your inability to get into med school because of this?

    It's important to realize that if schools didn't try to have some URM, there wouldn't be any URM physicians to treat that population. Furthermore- AA stops in residency. Residency is 100% merit based, so if a student is truly below average- they are not likely to get into a highly competitive specialty and then ultimately serve the initial intentions of the admissions committee- to go into primary care. Not that primary care is easy (not looking to piss anyone off), there are simply more spots.

    Interestingly enough- none of the URMs had to remediate a year, which was extremely condescending in your post. Everyone who had to repeat was either white or Asian. And I can honestly say it had nothing to do with their intelligence, but much to do with outside factors. Looks like admissions committees know what they're doing!
  6. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    who are you yelling at?
  7. Guitardude

    Guitardude

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    Question regarding your 32 MCAT and 3.8 GPA. What school (or rank range) did you get that GPA at? And grad work does it mean you did post-bacc? So does your 3.8 GPA = GPA in college + post-bacc? And just wondering: what medical school did you get into? Just the rank range is fine for me, thanks.
  8. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD

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  9. OREdwardsJR

    OREdwardsJR Your favorite nightmare

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    Of course OP is a miscer... even more fitting, a miscer with Zyzz as his avi.
  10. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7567291&page=1#.T6IUnesQsdk

    Students felt offended that he called himself an African-American? Are you kidding me? If you are offended by his skin color then you are a racist.

    Same way that feminism is just another form of bigotry and sexism.

    I love the double standards in this country.
  11. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    abso-f***ing-lutely
  12. sylvanthus

    sylvanthus EM/IM/CC PGY-2

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    Dude, are you even reading your own post? The first bolded is just ridiculous. The second is naive. The 3rd is just probability. If there are a handful of people that have to remediate and 90% of the class is white, well obviously there is a much higher chance of the remediators being white.
  13. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Exactly. asmith1121 is wrong because s/he used anecdotal evidence. Blacks have a ~7.0% attrition rate 10 years after entering medical school which is the highest even though they make up the smallest percentage of students. Asians are at ~1%, Whites are at ~0.8% and Hispanics are at ~3%

    Source: https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf (Table 1, Page 2)
  14. MDPhDJourney

    MDPhDJourney

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  15. sylvanthus

    sylvanthus EM/IM/CC PGY-2

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    First person to point out the logical fallacy of this post wins a cookie.
  16. carolp

    carolp

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    .
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  17. DuskPhilosophy

    DuskPhilosophy

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    I'm a little confused, who gets the short end of the stick when AA is used? The over-represented population that gets to sit in class or the URM that has to spend every day being judged and proving they deserve to be there, because honestly without wearing your stats on your forehead, everyone will be thinking the only reason you got in is your race. So who really benefits?
  18. CatFactorial

    CatFactorial

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    It's unfortunate for those who will be judged as affirmative action admits, but at the end of the day, they are medical students, which is a huge benefit.

    Rather than worry about what other people think about why they got there, anyone who gets a shot at being a physician should make the most of it and let his or her competence speak for itself.
  19. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD

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    Judging from the ignorance in this thread I may have to tattoo my transcript and step scores on my forehead:rolleyes:

    I could go on a rant about institutionalized racism, environmental racism and other subtle forms of "racism" to explain that cartoon but it wouldn't change anything. Opinions rarely change in these sort of arguments


    All minorities can do is work twice as hard as the next man to prove themselves :/
    Last edited: May 8, 2012
  20. FutrPharm

    FutrPharm New Member

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    Lol if the minorities you're referring too truly were working twice as hard as the next man, then they wouldn't need AA to force schools to accept them even though their MCAT scores are half as high as lots of asians that are turned away. Slightly exaggerated, but the statistics are littered throughout this thread.
  21. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    I love it when 2 seconds of critical thinking reveals the flaw in another's logic.
  22. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD

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    I'm referring to minorities who graduated med school (not as easy feat) and had good enough credentials to match into a good specialty having to work twice as hard still having to prove their worth because people have preconceived notions of how they got there. That's where I was going with that, I apologize if it flew over your head.

    It was a response to duskphilosophy's comment about "spending everyday being judged and proving they deserve to be there"


    A minority with a 265 Step 1, AOA and all the other credentials can't wear their credentials on their sleeves, so people will judge them based on skin color but he may be able to offset these attitudes by working twice as hard and being the best possible physician he/she can be:)


    Good try tho


    What you people need to do is raise the minimum standards for graduating med school and earning an MD degree so that these "affirmative action" doctors stop graduating and tykyingyerjerbs?
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  23. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD

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    [​IMG]


    I see evidence of this "even playing field" you speak off everyday working in a big city with a huge disenfranchized minority population. Some of these kids don't stand a chance, it's tragic:( But some roses do grow from concrete

    MESSAGE!!!!


    How many women want to become construction workers? Ironically, a lot of nail Salons I go to have a lot of males working there.

    And if I'm not mistaken many companies do have quotas and Affirmative Action for women. I'm guessing you chose construction work for your comparison to show that minorities are too stupid to become doctors in the same way women aren't physically fit enough to become constructions workers.

    [​IMG]


    It sounds ridiculous because women aren't supposed to be construction workers, men aren't supposed to do nails, and minorities aren't supposed to be doctors, BRILLIANT!!!!
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  24. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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  25. SlickNickMD

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    LOL not that it matters but um by next year I'll have 3 degrees under my belt including a MS and MD, I'm not a premed:p

    Pre-meds can't have opinions on race?


    Physical evidence that supports the claims in The Bell Curve, also brought to you by wikipedia:)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniometry

    This is why black people should stick to basketball and leave the doctoring and eye exams to whites. I don't care what Noam Chomsky has to say about it
  26. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Meh, this is some unempirical sociology from the 1800's and early 1900's. My link is from a Harvard Professor from 1994. They need updated studies on this.
  27. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD

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    You're right, he's from Harvard so his claims must be valid. Why don't you dedicate your life to proving that black people are intellectually inferior, it sounds like your calling *shrugs*

    I'm sure in the 1900s someone thought craniography was "real science":laugh:, but if you're lucky 40 years from now no one will look back at "The Bell Curve" as unempirical sociology:xf:
  28. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Or maybe I am trying to prove Asians are intellectually superior? har har

    Personal income by race:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    All I am doing is believing statistics. You can ignore facts if you like. If that gives you the moral high horse.
  29. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD

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    Black people in this country are incarcerated more than any other group, based on these statistics black people are genetically predisposed to violence :) Let's completely ignore any confounding factors!!! :)



    Statistics don't lie and that is the only logical conclusion to draw from that.


    http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php


    Since we're taking all these statistics at face value without taking time to think about them critically, I guess Nigerians are superior to everyone else?



    Income is clearly a measure of superiority, based on statistics of income men are superior to women :) Being a man FTW

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html




    I'm sure Adolf Hitler had a lot of statistics showing the superiority of the Aryan race. You can't ignore the statistics!!!
  30. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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  31. trackstr22

    trackstr22

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    I am a black male with a 3.9+ GPA and a 30+ MCAT and I really think that affirmative action has gone too far. I have seen three other black students being granted interviews with MCAT scores that are less than 23 and one even got accepted. The worst part about it is that they all come from pretty well off families so they really have no excuses. Affirmative action should be income based. It would still help many URM students but not allow poor Asians and Whites to fall through the cracks.
  32. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
  33. Dave89

    Dave89 E pluribus pluribus

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    "Superior" is an inaccurate word to use in this context. Greater work ethic or drive to attain degrees? Perhaps.



    There are rational reasons for men earning more than women, on average:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/297356/left-s-favorite-bad-statistic-rich-lowry
  34. SlickNickMD

    SlickNickMD

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    Um pay attention to the tone of my comments!!!!!! I was in no way implying that Nigerians are superior, I was trying to challenge shnurek to think critically which is also why I brought up the statistics about being black and crime rates. Someone like him would dismiss it as blacks being inferior and genetically prone to violence ignoring the centuries of mindrape black people have had to endure in the land of the free.


    lol I sound like dirty hippy:(
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  35. Dave89

    Dave89 E pluribus pluribus

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    I think I understood your tone. But it's important to stress that some statistics do have significant weight, and good reasons behind them.

    For instance: in the case of black crime rates, the stats are significant enough, in my opinion, to be beyond the excuse of "centuries of mindrape black people have had to endure in the land of the free."
  36. untouchable

    untouchable

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    Med schools tend to give preference to whites/blacks/hispanics as they are in good numbers on a quota system. You will always find a school having 70% whites, 25% blacks/hispanics and around 5% Asian/Middle East.

    people from Asia/Middle East are at a disadvantage
  37. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Exactly, look at Jews. They have been enslaved, mass murdered (6 million) and are basically ostracized everywhere. Yet they won 50% of the Nobel prizes for the USA and they only make up 2% of the population of the USA. Also Israel has a highest PhD. per population ratio than any other nation in the world.

    So I don't really think "centuries of mindrape black people have had to endure" is an excuse.

    PS - I'm not Jewish.

    Oh, and SlickNick you sound like a 16 year old high school kid by the way you write.
  38. Nescience

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  39. Dysgenics

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  40. andon

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    If anyone can tell me the figure of speech represented by this absolute gem I will hand make you a pizza of reddit upvotes that are useless here, but tasty.
  41. kjamess

    kjamess

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    I find it amusing that those of you posting intellectually dishonest pseudo-science regarding race and IQ are too cowardly to do it under your real user names. The problem with the bell curve is for one, correlation != causation. Also, genetics alone cannot account for the Flynn affect. And if genetics and IQ are so inextricably linked, it stands to reason that black women and black men would have similar IQ scores. Yet, there is a descrepancy between the two not seen amongst whites. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

    http://holtz.org/Library/ToFile/Reading/IQ.htm
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  42. PrideNeverDie

    PrideNeverDie We're all gonna make it brah

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    agreed ... closet racists hijacked my thread

    the thread was originally about "has admissions in their need to increase minority representation lowered their academic standards too far" not about race and IQ

    i heard one minority classmate say his GPA/MCAT score and just shook my head. another classmate stared in stunned silence. not surprisingly, he remediated.

    i commend you for admitting that black males have lower IQs than any other demographic in the US.
  43. kjamess

    kjamess

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    um, that clearly wasnt my point.
  44. texniowa89

    texniowa89 texniowa89

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    I am merely quoting you because I want to reel this in to the question posed by the original author of the thread, thanks PrideNeverDie for pointing out what your actual question was. Before I continue I will say that many of the comments made in this thread are extremely disturbing, many of you sound like old, dated sociologists/psychologists from the 1950s. Someone cited the bell curve at one point and I almost fell out of my seat, after which point I proceeded to laugh hysterically because I cannot (well, I can) BELIEVE we still have people going that far. Especially since everyone in their right mind who uses their brain to its FULL capacity knows that the Intelligence Quotient was/is an invented measure created by very misguided white men who were so bent on trying to come up with a reason why dark-skinned people just could in no way be as smart as they were that they refused to explore similarities. Half of you are so affected by oppressive ideology that you would still cry wolf if someone beat you to a pulp with Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Forgive me, as I am very aware that I have bought into the cycle of violence and have directed attention away from the original question.

    My use of "you" in my statements to follow is a generic one, I am not only responding to Pride's question but posing this to everyone.

    Do I believe admissions has gone too far? The question is a simple one but the parts of any answer are wrought with complexity. You cannot ask this question (OR ANSWER IT) without having an unwavering understanding and awareness of all sides of (as in, more than what you are taught in a textbook) history, sociology, and most importantly, social psychology. Everyone, everyone in medicine knows that once you are in med school, your grades and MCAT do not matter insofar that they will not help you succeed as a physician-in-training. What is important is the discipline mastered to get into medical school that may or may not have yielded a 3.5+ GPA or 30+ MCAT (as evinced by the many people who consistently practice for the MCAT and receive lower, or possibly higher scores than the official score achieved on exam day, which is based on a curve pretty much). I would like a show of hands as to how many doctors you know who have told you "I am a [insert specialist type here] and my GPA and MCAT were [insert grade/score]." Once accepted to medical school everyone starts anew and you have the ability to now "prove yourself" on a much, much higher ground than ever before, unless you're entering medicine after having experience in another lucrative profession or earning a degree higher than a masters. The question IMO is not have adcoms gone too far, an even better question would be have adcoms gone too far in accepting students with low scores who then (stats required no less) do not make it through med school or end up not passing the multiple board exams. One reason adcoms accept all sorts of students (dingding, it is not just URMs people) with lower scores is because they care about more than just grades. I have a very intelligent friend from college who was applying to med school last admissions cycle and to my knowledge I kid you not he only received interview offers from 2 out of 12 med schools....yet he had done everything right: summers of research, high grades (3.5+), double majored in science and a foreign language, a 32+ on the MCAT, is an excellent speaker/conversationalist and he even identifies with a minoritized sexuality. According to what we learn about what med schools seek and why, he should have had absolutely no problem getting in to pretty much anywhere. And no I am not and have never been on any sort of adcom.

    Do I believe grades/MCAT scores are important? Of course. Do I believe that they will tell an adcom who is going to actually be successful as a physician?....which is what the whole admissions process is about let me remind you...well, somewhat. An interview is what would be necessary to really solidify admissions' decisions....which is why they're required for EVERYONE. Do I believe grades/MCAT scores will tell an adcom who is most likely going to succeed in med school? Probably. But do I believe adcoms have lowered their standards too far? No. And do I think this is a mute point because last I checked success rate in med school is relatively the same as it has been for the past what like 20 years? Absolutely. I will point out that pass rates are typically higher for private schools because guess what, when people fail in any capacity at private med schools it makes it appear the school is doing something wrong, not the student and there is a whole ton of money wrapped up in every single private-run medical educational institution. The case is very similar for state-funded schools but trust me, way more money is at stake for private schools. If this concept is foreign to any of you then try looking up who the trustees are and their approximate salaries for schools like Harvard, P&S, UPenn, WashU, Duke, Baylor, any big name or any school really.


    I welcome further dialogue but I really, really think that people should stop being bitter about who gets in and who does not and get BETTER at succeeding to excellence in your medical endeavors. How do you think top physicians get to where they are? Not by being angry in forums let me tell you.

    And if you think regardless of the above that high achievers (someone said Asians earlier, but the assumption that Asians are the only minoritized high achievers not getting accepted to med school in and of itself is a racist claim) deserve to be accepted anyway then maybe you should move to France or Great Britain where the physician population is determined by high achievement alone, nothing more and nothing less. If you think America is too easily swayed by some master make-believe "double standard" then welcome to the world of capitalism people. GET INFORMED.


    Oh and I almost let this slide but couldn't...that "i commend you for admitting that black males have lower IQs than any other demographic in the US" comment makes you a disgusting ignorant pig but I have seen klansmen and neo-Nazis emerge from the darkness that is their ignorance so there is no reason to not believe that you too could one day see the light of intelligent consciousness.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  45. AshPreMed

    AshPreMed

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    I love this.

    You will find a very illuminating and insightful short discussion I had on this topic, here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=13017211#post13017211. I strongly recommend everyone reads it.

    Enjoy seeing how dangerously foolish the admission system is.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  46. sibitrum

    sibitrum Newbie

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    Never have I seen someone write so much and yet provide no reasoning/evidence for their beliefs, other than a vague mood-affiliation with Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
  47. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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  48. texniowa89

    texniowa89 texniowa89

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    Sibitrum wants to know why I believe what I do/how I am informed. lololol my work here is done. Crack a book.
  49. AshPreMed

    AshPreMed

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    That's because there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's shameful to let the racism and sacrifice of health for political INcorrectness continue because some politicians (who as always) don't have interest in serving the public but only in being re-elected by their constituents. Do you think some URM representatives wouldn't want to provide their URM constituents almost guaranteed medical school admissions among other affirmative actions? An eye for an eye does not make things right, only worse.

    Also, are you URM, by any chance? http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1287666826226.png The health of the population is far more important than any group (even whites) becoming doctors for political correctness (if its even truly correct). Cultural understanding and competency is based on culture, not a URM living in Beverly Hills without any URM's around him (not even part of the targeted culture, lol) getting into med school with a 3.0 GPA and 22 MCAT.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  50. kpcrew

    kpcrew Removed

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    Well seeing as how we've all successfully gone through the admission system while you haven't...

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