Having a LOR writer call the dean of admissions?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

drrrrspaceman

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
16
Reaction score
23
So for a little background, I am waitlisted at my top choice school and one of the physicians I have researched under and shadowed (who works for this school) offered to call the dean of admissions for me. He is not the PI of my lab group but the first author for the paper we published together in this lab. Do you think this would this help at all or would only the PI's call matter? I know him very well and he thinks very highly of me (not to sound conceited) but he also already wrote me a letter of recommendation. Just looking for some opinions on the matter. Thanks!

Members don't see this ad.
 
So for a little background, I am waitlisted at my top choice school and one of the physicians I have researched under and shadowed (who works for this school) offered to call the dean of admissions for me. He is not the PI of my lab group but the first author for the paper we published together in this lab. Do you think this would this help at all or would only the PI's call matter? I know him very well and he thinks very highly of me (not to sound conceited) but he also already wrote me a letter of recommendation. Just looking for some opinions on the matter. Thanks!
Does he know the dean personally?
If calls from interested parties worked, the phones would ring off the hook!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I wouldn't but since you have already been accepted elsewhere what do you have to lose at this point?

If calls from interested parties worked, the phones would ring off the hook!
Haha, so true.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
No, I don't think so. He just offered to do it for me if I thought it would help.
 
If he offered to do it, say yes. It can't hurt you that someone took the initiative to call in on your behalf.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The Dean will be very polite and then nothing will happen with your app.

I find that the only thing that works on wait lists is patience, which is a virtue, after all.


So for a little background, I am waitlisted at my top choice school and one of the physicians I have researched under and shadowed (who works for this school) offered to call the dean of admissions for me. He is not the PI of my lab group but the first author for the paper we published together in this lab. Do you think this would this help at all or would only the PI's call matter? I know him very well and he thinks very highly of me (not to sound conceited) but he also already wrote me a letter of recommendation. Just looking for some opinions on the matter. Thanks!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Annoying, yes. More effective at getting what they want? Yes.
.
We have had governors, former governors, Senators, producers, directors, actors, trustees and so many more call (and that's just this cycle!).
All with no detectable effect (at this point in the process).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
We have had governors, former governors, Senators, producers, directors, actors, trustees and so many more call (and that's just this cycle!).
All with no detectable effect (at this point in the process).
Why is that? Have you all made up your minds already? What if it's an unranked waitlist?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The Dean will be very polite and then nothing will happen with your app.

I find that the only thing that works on wait lists is patience, which is a virtue, after all.
That's one way to keep your place on the wait list.
I was fortunate enough to find my way off. It happened about 10 minutes after someone called the dean of admissions on my behalf. It may have helped that they were friends for 2 or 3 decades.
They knew I gotten accepted elsewhere and asked if I wanted to go there instead, I said it was my #1 choice, and the rest is history.
If he doesn't know the dean it probably won't help.
Ymmv as the wait list and how one moves off it will vary between schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
You're an outlier, then, colleague!

That's one way to keep your place on the wait list.
I was fortunate enough to find my way off. It happened about 10 minutes after someone called the dean of admissions on my behalf. It may have helped that they were friends for 2 or 3 decades.
They knew I gotten accepted elsewhere and asked if I wanted to go there instead, I said it was my #1 choice, and the rest is history.
If he doesn't know the dean it probably won't help.
Ymmv as the wait list and how one moves off it will vary between schools.
 
We have had governors, former governors, Senators, producers, directors, actors, trustees and so many more call (and that's just this cycle!).
All with no detectable effect (at this point in the process).

Right but most of those people aren't doctors or alums at the school etc...
 
Last edited:
This doesn't make us want you more.
Why though. Wouldn't a phone call serve a similar function to a letter of recommendation. These schools are crazy about the LORs. And if a governor or even someone very well-known in medicine is ready to take the time to personally vouch for you, that should trump any LOR.
 
We have had governors, former governors, Senators, producers, directors, actors, trustees and so many more call (and that's just this cycle!).
All with no detectable effect (at this point in the process).

Please tell me it was Arnold.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Why though. Wouldn't a phone call serve a similar function to a letter of recommendation. These schools are crazy about the LORs. And if a governor or even someone very well-known in medicine is ready to take the time to personally vouch for you, that should trump any LOR.

Just because you know someone influential doesn't mean you're going to be a good doctor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Why though. Wouldn't a phone call serve a similar function to a letter of recommendation. These schools are crazy about the LORs. And if a governor or even someone very well-known in medicine is ready to take the time to personally vouch for you, that should trump any LOR.
Not at all.
Now if you had been taught or supervised by this person, it is another story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The process is clearly open to some degree of outside influence at some programs. At my university's medical school, the son of one of my professors matriculated.
 
.
 
Last edited:
Yup. We call these people "legacies".

Nobody ever bitches about them, ever, on SDN, but God forbid a URM gets accepted with stats less than someone else.


The process is clearly open to some degree of outside influence at some programs. At my university's medical school, the son of one of my professors matriculated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
This doesn't make us want you more.

You are telling me that if Braunwald calls the Dean of admissions and says, "Hey, I heard you guys are considering this student that worked with me, you should take him, I can vouch for his abilities." That is not going to make you want that student more? I understand your point that random celebrities calling on a student's behalf are useless. But, that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about well known PIs or physicians calling and vouching for students that they have worked with as an adjunct to their LOR or out of the blue to simply say, "If you haven't looked at this app yourself, I think that you should, this guy is special."

Admittedly, this affects very few people. And yes, most of these calls are annoying and mean next to nothing. But, many application processes are governed heavily by phone calls. In vascular surgery residency, virtually everyone gets a phone call about applicants that a program is seriously considering. I'm sure that it is the same in most if not all other competitive fields. When it comes to looking for jobs post residency, there are no LOR, it is 100% pure phone calls and who will call on your behalf. Yes, medical school admissions is fundamentally different in terms of scope and numbers compared to those two examples, but the people involved do overlap and networking/who you know will always have some impact and in a handful of cases every year a significant one (ie admission vs. no admission).

Yup. We call these people "legacies".

Nobody ever bitches about them, ever, on SDN, but God forbid a URM gets accepted with stats less than someone else.

I don't know what the common use of the term is, but at least in the circles that I have run, a legacy is someone whose family have an affiliation with a particular school. For instance, my father went to medical school, they interviewed me, more than one interviewer brought up the fact that he went there. The funnier one was when I interviewed at Hopkins, one of their interviewers brought it up and asked if I would even consider Hopkins given that my father went somewhere else. Knowing people that will call on your behalf is a little bit that, but it is also networking and also simply being a strong applicant, usually with things outside of the classroom. I've been asked a couple of times by students how to stratify their research 'credentials' and honestly, what a PI would say in a phone call is probably the most important thing for an undergrad where publications/impact are even more hit or miss than usual.

I personally have a problem with the legacy concept, it is stupid, maybe it is growing up in upper middle class north east where this was rampant and seeing students that had no business being in particular undergrads/medical schools getting in and doing poorly. But, if someone is willing to stick their neck out for a student because they think they are good, not just because they are related? I think that that is very very different.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
The process is clearly open to some degree of outside influence at some programs. At my university's medical school, the son of one of my professors matriculated.
There is a propensity for this at all schools. But it is not attributable to last minute waitlist calls on their behalf! It is part of the systematic preference for relatives and the offspring of the influential.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You are telling me that if Braunwald calls the Dean of admissions and says, "Hey, I heard you guys are considering this student that worked with me, you should take him, I can vouch for his abilities." That is not going to make you want that student more? I understand your point that random celebrities calling on a student's behalf are useless. But, that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about well known PIs or physicians calling and vouching for students that they have worked with as an adjunct to their LOR or out of the blue to simply say, "If you haven't looked at this app yourself, I think that you should, this guy is special."
The committee decision and the strength of their recommendation will be far more important than any phone call at this point.
This type of influence works both ways. It can also foreshadow problems of "specialness" that we would have to live with for the student's entire stay the school.
No Student Affairs Dean wants this.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I expect that at least one of my children will attend college at the very selective university where I am on the faculty. If they're reasonably competitive I see nothing wrong with that. It's a perk of the job, just like the tuition reimbursement.
How far that extends to the more selective and limited graduate programs is anyone's guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Haha, I remember one of the attendings I work for complaining about how he was considered faculty at HMS and his son didn't get into Harvard as an undergrad because he was white.

True story.

(To be fair though, his son sounds really freaking smart and has done a lot of cool tissue engineering work with lots of conferences and publications as a high school student and knowing his dad, the kid did it himself outside of a little guidance in lab. i.e. not gift publications)
 
We have had governors, former governors, Senators, producers, directors, actors, trustees and so many more call (and that's just this cycle!).
All with no detectable effect (at this point in the process).
eek, let me text my friend Obama not to phone your school then!!!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This makes me wonder whether this situation is far more common at top law/business schools. George H. W. Bush calling for George W. Bush, anyone? :rolleyes:
 
The committee decision and the strength of their recommendation will be far more important than any phone call at this point.
This type of influence works both ways. It can also foreshadow problems of "specialness" that we would have to live with for the student's entire stay the school.
No Student Affairs Dean wants this.

No student affairs Dean wants a student that is vouched for by a top researcher in that specific field?

You're being hyperbolic... By a lot!
 
No student affairs Dean wants a student that is vouched for by a top researcher in that specific field?

You're being hyperbolic... By a lot!

Perhaps they have a different perspective on the West coast!
 
I see your point but consider that people get onto a wait list for a reason, and they're usually not good ones. Late applicants might be good on paper, but also may have issues with poor choice making or time mgt.

Also consider this: think about the duds you've personally interviewed. You wanted them on a wait list for good reasons. Now, imagine a Name calling up the Admissions Dean, trying to subvert the process (and your decision) because of the personal connection to the applicant.

Thoughts????

I personally have a problem with the legacy concept, it is stupid, maybe it is growing up in upper middle class north east where this was rampant and seeing students that had no business being in particular undergrads/medical schools getting in and doing poorly. But, if someone is willing to stick their neck out for a student because they think they are good, not just because they are related? I think that that is very very different.[/QUOTE]
 
I see your point but consider that people get onto a wait list for a reason, and they're usually not good ones. Late applicants might be good on paper, but also may have issues with poor choice making or time mgt.

Also consider this: think about the duds you've personally interviewed. You wanted them on a wait list for good reasons. Now, imagine a Name calling up the Admissions Dean, trying to subvert the process (and your decision) because of the personal connection to the applicant.

Thoughts????

I personally have a problem with the legacy concept, it is stupid, maybe it is growing up in upper middle class north east where this was rampant and seeing students that had no business being in particular undergrads/medical schools getting in and doing poorly. But, if someone is willing to stick their neck out for a student because they think they are good, not just because they are related? I think that that is very very different.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I should have also added the additional caveat that I am mainly talking about people pre-waitlist. Phone calls before decisions are rendered I think have a pretty good sized impact coming from the right people.

However, I think that it all comes down to trust. There are well regarded faculty and and people in medicine whose opinion of an applicant I trust more than my own. Even after an interview, I trust Braunwald's opinion of a student (that he has worked with) more than I trust virtually any admissions committee member. Medical school admissions is an inexact science and we are playing with a limited data set. Do we really know who these students are after reading their applications and meeting them for an hour or two? Not really. We depend on how similar people to them have performed in the past and hope that they will follow the trends. It is a system that works well. But, it does lack a personal component to it that IS valuable. I don't trust all MD/DO to know who is a good fit for medicine. They are as a group, less different from the general population than we like to think. But, are there those out there that you would trust, either because you know them personally or by their impeccable reputation? I think so.

I won't argue the ethics of this kind of stuff. I fall back and forth every other day. But, who you know matters. Name and reputation matter. And big shots do have pull. Again, maybe a product of where I grew up, but I've seen it first hand on numerous occasions and from that had a relatively negative impression. But, that was mostly in undergrad/legacy rather than people who have demonstrated strong X-factors being talked up by advocates.
 
No student affairs Dean wants a student that is vouched for by a top researcher in that specific field?

You're being hyperbolic... By a lot!

A strong LOR that addresses the characteristics we are looking for from a reliable person who has worked with the applicant (top researcher notwithstanding) is powerful. A last minute phone call for someone on the waitlist is a far different thing. It is usually made in good faith on behalf of a friend by someone who barely knows the applicant.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Interesting food for thought. Two things immediately come to mind:

Our wily old Admissions Dean is very unlikely to know or even care who Braunwald is. Our Dean may, but I honestly don't know how much pull that might yield.

I don't know who Braunwald is either, and had to Google his name (FYI:: major league cardiologist... literally wrote the book on it). So I'm now trying think of what I'd do, if, say Al Gilman (who I do know: Nobel laureate and wrote THE book on Pharmacology) called me and vouched for someone. Haven't a clue!


Sorry, I should have also added the additional caveat that I am mainly talking about people pre-waitlist. Phone calls before decisions are rendered I think have a pretty good sized impact coming from the right people.

However, I think that it all comes down to trust. There are well regarded faculty and and people in medicine whose opinion of an applicant I trust more than my own. Even after an interview, I trust Braunwald's opinion of a student (that he has worked with) more than I trust virtually any admissions committee member. Medical school admissions is an inexact science and we are playing with a limited data set. Do we really know who these students are after reading their applications and meeting them for an hour or two? Not really. We depend on how similar people to them have performed in the past and hope that they will follow the trends. It is a system that works well. But, it does lack a personal component to it that IS valuable. I don't trust all MD/DO to know who is a good fit for medicine. They are as a group, less different from the general population than we like to think. But, are there those out there that you would trust, either because you know them personally or by their impeccable reputation? I think so.

I won't argue the ethics of this kind of stuff. I fall back and forth every other day. But, who you know matters. Name and reputation matter. And big shots do have pull. Again, maybe a product of where I grew up, but I've seen it first hand on numerous occasions and from that had a relatively negative impression. But, that was mostly in undergrad/legacy rather than people who have demonstrated strong X-factors being talked up by advocates.[/QUOTE]
 
Top