Having kids in med school?

[fullofhope]

Is there anyone out there who had children while in medical school? I've read about the good time to get married, is there any good time to have children? I really would like to have a family earlier on and I'm not sure if it is possible to start a family before residency is over. Please share any experiences of couples having children while in school or residency. Thank you

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[Seaglass]

I'm married and my wife and I are expecting our first child this January, the last semester of my fourth year. I would say that the first two years or the end of the fourth year are good times to have kids if you're a guy. From the female perspective I don't know if there is an ideal time. Don't worry so much about residency - you'll still see your kids and have time for family stuff, but perhaps less during your intern year.

And I know plenty of students and residents who have had children without having to put school or residency on hold. It does depend somewhat on the personality of the program/school.

Casey

 

[k's mom]

My husband is starting second year, and we have a 3 year old and 5 month old. No problem!
In fact,we are surrounded by other families with children, many with three or more. Among the spouses, I can count five babies born last year, and another five due this winter. As for students, last year alone, I know of three women medical students who gave birth, two fourth years who simply "fit-it-in" to their rotation schedules, and a second year who is taking a semester off (the school is very supportive) and picking up her rotations later.
It can absolutely be done, but be realistic. There is no such thing as a perfect time to have a baby, just know that it will be difficult, and try to prepare the most supportive environment possible. If you try to "do-it-alone" you will be miserable. Find support groups, get out of the house and check with current students with families about how they make it work at a particular school.
For us, choosing on-campus housing has made all the difference, because of the number of other spouses in our exact same circumstance.
I have also heard that the school/program makes a difference. SOme are more supportive of students/residents with families than others.

 

[irlandesa]

Originally posted by fullofhope
Is there anyone out there who had children while in medical school? I've read about the good time to get married, is there any good time to have children? I really would like to have a family earlier on and I'm not sure if it is possible to start a family before residency is over. Please share any experiences of couples having children while in school or residency. Thank you

I'm not married, but based on what I know of med school so far, I think the best time to have kids would be during the second year of med school, that way you can take a whole leave of absence at the end of second year and enter third year a year later if you need to. Having a baby at the end of third year sounds like a decent option too, though if you are female the stress/lots of time on feet of third year might be a concern during pregnancy. During residency, sometime after internship is a good possibility, and many programs (Yale and Brown, etc.) seem to be supportive about maternity and paternity leave from what I hear (particularly if you're in one of the primary care-oriented residencies like peds). We have only one woman in our class who is currently pregnant during third year, but she is about 30 and has a supportive husband. I think it is possible, but like everything else in life, not as easy as it looks on paper. If you have to take a significant amount of time off to stay home with your baby sometime during the whole med school/residency process, I don't think it's a terrible tragedy. Your health and the baby's are the most important thing, not that you got your MD/DO at age 26! good luck!

 

[banner]

Anyone who has a child during medical school (unless they have an outside source of wealth/income) is irresponsible and selfish. A child deserves to come into this world with parents that have time and ability to properly care for them (which eventually, you will). To have children knowing that the next 5-10 years will be difficult financially, and timewise is foolish.

It is a myth to think that you can have everything: a demanding career and a family life. Sure you can have it, but you won't be successful at either.

My sister-in-law went to her intern year of ER residency three months pregnant. By doing this, she announced to all of the other residents that they would be picking up the slack for her when the baby was born. Naturally, they have made it no secret that they resent her. The only other question is, will her child resent her, not being around, for the first four years of her life?? It is absurd to assume that you can enter a profession that will require 80-100 hours of work a week and still be around for your child during the most formative years of their life.

Sure, there are "success stories" of people having it all, but I am of the school of thought that these people are just good showmen instead of good parents.

So why not just wait for the first years of residency to end, and make it easier for everyone, including the child?

 

[MichiMO]

Originally posted by banner
Anyone who has a child during medical school (unless they have an outside source of wealth/income) is irresponsible and selfish. A child deserves to come into this world with parents that have time and ability to properly care for them (which eventually, you will). To have children knowing that the next 5-10 years will be difficult financially, and timewise is foolish.

It is a myth to think that you can have everything: a demanding career and a family life. Sure you can have it, but you won't be successful at either.

My sister-in-law went to her intern year of ER residency three months pregnant. By doing this, she announced to all of the other residents that they would be picking up the slack for her when the baby was born. Naturally, they have made it no secret that they resent her. The only other question is, will her child resent her, not being around, for the first four years of her life?? It is absurd to assume that you can enter a profession that will require 80-100 hours of work a week and still be around for your child during the most formative years of their life.

Sure, there are "success stories" of people having it all, but I am of the school of thought that these people are just good showmen instead of good parents.

So why not just wait for the first years of residency to end, and make it easier for everyone, including the child?

Not all people enter medical school at 22. There is a certain time factor for women, especially if they want to have more than one child. Yes, there are advaces being made for women to have children later, but no one can deny that as you get older your risk of not being able to have a healthy child greatly increases.

 

[StealthFille]

Originally posted by banner
Anyone who has a child during medical school (unless they have an outside source of wealth/income) is irresponsible and selfish. A child deserves to come into this world with parents that have time and ability to properly care for them (which eventually, you will). To have children knowing that the next 5-10 years will be difficult financially, and timewise is foolish.

--What about poor people who have to work very hard for little money as a matter of course? It's not like they graduate after four years, that's how their life goes--always working, always poor. Should they never have children?--

It is a myth to think that you can have everything: a demanding career and a family life. Sure you can have it, but you won't be successful at either.

--My parents did it.--

My sister-in-law went to her intern year of ER residency three months pregnant. By doing this, she announced to all of the other residents that they would be picking up the slack for her when the baby was born. Naturally, they have made it no secret that they resent her. The only other question is, will her child resent her, not being around, for the first four years of her life?? It is absurd to assume that you can enter a profession that will require 80-100 hours of work a week and still be around for your child during the most formative years of their life.

--Ever notice how these criticisms always come up about women/mothers but rarely if EVER men/fathers?--

Sure, there are "success stories" of people having it all, but I am of the school of thought that these people are just good showmen instead of good parents.

--Just because YOU can't pull it off (and that's actually not even true--even YOU could have it all if you quit being so whiny and cynical and got down to business making your life amazing) doesn't mean nobody can. I highly doubt that all these successful, happy people are doing it just to make you look bad.--

So why not just wait for the first years of residency to end, and make it easier for everyone, including the child?

--That's a great idea for some people, and I respect your commitment to responsible parenting, but the FACT of the matter is everybody's situation is different and nobody's situation is ever perfect. Say a couple follows your advice and waits to start a family until after school and residency, and a year after the baby's born one of them is killed in a car accident. Wouldn't it have been better for the baby to get to know both parents even if one of them was fairly busy with medical training? Life is too uncertain to wait for the "perfect" situation.

 

[beanbean]

I am 35, married and a mom to two daughters (ages 5 and 7) and one son (age 3 months). I am also an MS1.

My son was a big surprise! My husband and I thought we had planned everything so that our kids would be in school full-time when I started med school....ha! ha! I delivered a little bundle of joy 2 1/2 weeks after school started. No, I wouldn't recommend this. I am very fortunate to have a husband with an excellent paying job and family very close by. I was a stay-at-home mother for my two girls, ao being away from my son is difficult at times. However, we are all doing just fine. My girls are happy and my baby is quite a Momma's boy! My husband is amazing and I am doing very well in school.

Have a child when it feels right for you...there is no perfect time.

 

[smc927]

I believe it is a matter of priorities. Those who wait for the "perfect time" to have a child often never find it. Same goes for marriage.<br><br>
As for having kids in medical school - I know a half a dozen great doctors now who had one to four kids while in medical school. They are strong and happy families who have been strengthened by their "lean years" in med school. They are fathers, so I can't offer a p.o.v. as far as mothers are concerned. <br>
Life will <i>always</i> present challenges. Big ones. The question, I truly believe, is our willingness and commitment to work together as parents more than how much we have in our bank accounts. Money does matter, that cannot be denied, but I believe it is a sad mistake to make money the deciding factor in having children. <br>
As for time - will you really have any more time after medical school? There is always plenty to fill up the calendar.<br>

 

[mellybell]

My husband and I got married after his first year of med school and had our first baby at the beginning of his 3rd year. She is now 6 1/2 and we have 2 more kids and are in the 2nd year of 4 of a fellowship. I can't say that it was easy having a child in med school, but we did it for 2 main reasons. First, we both knew we wanted kids young, and second, we had family around there, whereas where we went for training we didn't/don't, and we knew that would probably happen. IMHO I think that if it is a toss up between med school and training, there isn't much difference. Our second baby was born during 2nd year of residency and our 3rd at the beginning of fellowship. It has all been somewhat tough, but babies are like that no matter what. I went into it all knowing there would be many bumps in the road, and just found myself a good support system (VITAL!) of other moms in the same situation (or similar). We have playgroups, and also do dinners together or meet on the weekends during times when most other husbands are home from work, so that we aren't always alone with the kids. Personally I didn't want to be in my mid 30's when I started having kids which is what would be the case if we waited until after training. I am not saying its wrong by any means.....to each his own, but as many people here have said, there is no "perfect" time to have a baby. It does take a lot of effort on both parts (ie: for me not to take it out on him how much he is gone, and for him to REALLY have quality time with the kids when he is home) and it has taken a lot of adjusting. Looking back, I wouldn't have done it any other way.
Oh I could go on and on.......and I am just getting my feet wet here having just found this board, so I am sure more will come out as time goes on.

 

[johnk]

I can share a very horrifying story of a couple I know who had a child while in residency. I won't list any names or programs in fear of backlash but I will tell you this.. The couple I know had a child while in their 3rd year of an extremely competitive residency & program. CLUE CLUE... SOUTH Once the director of this program learned of this he confronted the person and said, "how dare you have a child in my residency!" To make a long story short the director threatened to not graduate the resident from the program. The director also told this person the only way they would get their certificate from the program was if they filled a two year fellowship vacancy. Whether this resident will receive their certificate still remains to be seen

You just never know when something like this is going to hit yourself or someone you know so think twice before making decisions.

 

[emanresu]

Originally posted by johnk
I can share a very horrifying story of a couple I know who had a child while in residency. I won't list any names or programs in fear of backlash but I will tell you this.. The couple I know had a child while in their 3rd year of an extremely competitive residency & program. CLUE CLUE... SOUTH Once the director of this program learned of this he confronted the person and said, "how dare you have a child in my residency!" To make a long story short the director threatened to not graduate the resident from the program. The director also told this person the only way they would get their certificate from the program was if they filled a two year fellowship vacancy. Whether this resident will receive their certificate still remains to be seen

You just never know when something like this is going to hit yourself or someone you know so think twice before making decisions.

Man, that is just scary!

I have a 9 mo. old. I'm 28; my wife is 33. She's really jonesing for another. Like my wife's, my parents were young when I was born. We feel it's important not to have one foot in the grave by the time our kids graduate HS. Come hell and/or high water, we will have another.

 

[radspouse]

Originally posted by johnk
I can share a very horrifying story of a couple I know who had a child while in residency. I won't list any names or programs in fear of backlash but I will tell you this.. The couple I know had a child while in their 3rd year of an extremely competitive residency & program. CLUE CLUE... SOUTH Once the director of this program learned of this he confronted the person and said, "how dare you have a child in my residency!" To make a long story short the director threatened to not graduate the resident from the program. The director also told this person the only way they would get their certificate from the program was if they filled a two year fellowship vacancy. Whether this resident will receive their certificate still remains to be seen

I was under the impression that discrimination on the basis of family circumstances was illegal. Perhaps this resident needs to take the bigotry coming from this program director to a whole new level (ie the board of directors might be interested in knowing about this program director's behavior). btw This might be the same residency program that told my husband while he was interviewing there years ago that they didn't want residents with families ..... Thank goodness the program director he ended up with is much more enlightened than that.

 

[k's mom]

I agree with radspouse. This is illegal behavior. If the legal dept. at the hospital in question got one whiff of this, I can guarantee the person in question would be lucky to retain his(or her!) job. And don't give me any grief about possible retribution....residents are EMPLOYEES, with the same rights to a safe, harassment-free work environment as anyone else.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by k's mom
I agree with radspouse. This is illegal behavior. If the legal dept. at the hospital in question got one whiff of this, I can guarantee the person in question would be lucky to retain his(or her!) job. And don't give me any grief about possible retribution....residents are EMPLOYEES, with the same rights to a safe, harassment-free work environment as anyone else.

This is true. Times are changing, and clinical departments need to follow the law.

 

[PainDr]

As a 3rd yr resident, I've seen lots of people get pregnant and raise kids and I can tell you that NO ONE gets through it without alot of misery. This is especially true for female students and residents. Those of you who are just spouses really have no idea of the physical, mental and emotional demands of medschool and residency. You may think you know, but you really don't. In fact, there was a study that evaluated stressful life events and found only three that truly and profoundly change a person...war time combat, childbirth and becoming a physician. It's hard enough to spend 80 hrs a week making life and death decisions, but then to come home to children who want and need your undivided attention, (if they're still awake) is monumentally difficult. It is NOT like having a regular job or even two regular jobs. Think about what it's like for kids to go days without even seeing mommy/daddy? You may think I'm exaggerating but I've seen it first hand. Then you have to deal with your collegues who, although really happy for you, are not thrilled about adding more work to their already impossible schedules. It's not fair to anyone involved, but it's probably the kids who suffer the most. I guess what I don't understand is the need to have kids NOW. What's wrong with having them later, when you have the time for them? In response to one of the above posters, yes, your schedule DOES get better after residency. Even the last years of residency and fellowship aren't as bad. I now average only 60 hrs a week (although just last week I clocked 83) compared to the 80 I averaged as an intern and 2nd year. Also, none of these numbers include study time, which adds another 10-20 hrs a week. Personally, I've decided to wait. Yes, I am taking a risk by waiting so long, but I don't care. I just can't justify forcing a child to suffer in order to satisfy MY needs!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by PainDr
It is NOT like having a regular job or even two regular jobs. Think about what it's like for kids to go days without even seeing mommy/daddy?

There's no better role model for having kids in school than a person who HAD kids while in school and thankfully my mentor had 5 kids all throughout her training from undergraduate to UPenn MD/PhD to Hopkins residency/fellwoship . Ultimately, its about personal choice however I think it's foolish for a woman that's in her early 30's to delay childbearing based on a career choice. Women as you know have biological clocks and apprently men do too given that over 40% of infertility issues can be attributed to the male. Training opportunities will ALWAYS be there but the ability to have children is limited.

Going without seeing ones children for days? I don't know one female physician that has EVER been in this situation. As a matter of fact the only professions I know that fits this "profile" are Airline Pilot, Actress, Politician.

Originally posted by PainDr
I guess what I don't understand is the need to have kids NOW. What's wrong with having them later, when you have the time for them? I just can't justify forcing a child to suffer in order to satisfy MY needs!

Women as you know have biological clocks and apprently men do too given that over 40% of infertility issues can be attributed to the male.

I've met plenty of 40-something career, oriented, childless women that regret their decision to delay having children. But I have NEVER met anyone who had regrets having them.

 

[k's mom]

Um, reality? Seriously consider your choice of words. If you have not lived it, it is not your reality.

My reality is that marriage is hard, having kids is hard and medical training is hard....so what?

My husband and I saw each other less and had much, much more stress in our lives when we were parenting our son and trying desperately topay our bills and my husband's tuition with any and all jobs we could find. We BARELY SCRAPED BY while we both worked 100+ hour weeks, and never saw one another.
Now, we see each other more, we spend quality time with our children, and my husband is able to focus on MEDICINE, not making the rent every month and trying to stay awake for his $7.00 an hour graveyard shift job or 8 am lecture the following morning.

By the way, not everyone is 23 when they start medical training. If we waited until my husband's training was done, he would be 40, I would be 37, and he would STILL be working 60 hour weeks.
Plus, we would miss out on all of the joy that our children bring us...oh, right, that's not the "REALITY" you are interested in.

 

[PainDr]

"going for days without seeing your children...I don't know one female physician..."

Oh really. Just how many physicians with children do you know? I know quite a few and can tell you that when mommy or daddy has to BE AT THE HOSPITAL by 6-7am and doesn't LEAVE THE HOSPITAL until 9-10pm, they can and do, go days without seeing their children. Many people average 80 hrs a week, especially during internship and the first years of residency.

Seriously consider your choice of words. If you have not lived it, it is not your reality.

My point exactly. First of all, your husband is only a second year student! He hasn't even started clinicals...just wait until he does. At many schools, the student schedules are nearly as bad as the residents. Secondly, when he does become a resident, his stress level will increase exponentially! Not only are the hours horrible, but the mental and emotional stress can be very draining. We make life and death decisions...we watch people die. It is not like an office job with lousy hours! Also, I have been a confidante to many colleagues and see first hand the stress both parents and children go through. So please don't presume to tell me what it's like to go through the process. Your husband isn't even there yet, and as a spouse, you are really just a spectator.

 

[beanbean]

A spouse in any good marraige is never "just a spectator"; my spouse is my partner. No part of our lives are not intertwined together. The decision to attend medical school was a family decision; my children and husband are not spectators to my life.

My life priorities are as follows:

1) My own health and happiness - without these I am of no good to anyone.

2) My family

3) Everything else including medical school.

By the way, there are plenty of parents who don't 'see their children everyday' due to business travel - mothers and fathers. Just because Mom and Dad are home at 5 every night does not make them good parents.

I have been a stay at home mom and now attend medical school. My husband and I are raising three children who at the present time are happy, healthy and tell us we are the best Mommy and Daddy in the world. We aren't perfect, but so far we seem to be doing a very good job.

 

[PainDr]

I can see this is pointless. Why don't you all post again in about 5 years when you actually know what you're talking about. Has it escaped your attention that there are few, if any RESIDENTS in this forum contradicting me and defending your points of view? Good Luck...you're going to need it!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by PainDr
I can see this is pointless. Why don't you all post again in about 5 years when you actually know what you're talking about.

Half empty or half full, you obviously see the cup as neither just broken

I dont' know a better example of balancing career than the CHIEF of Surgical Pathology where I work. She's just great!!!!

BTW, could someone please name the career that requires an iota of brain power and that's just perfect for working women with families?

 

[PainDr]

Believe it or not, most people consider me a "half full" kind of person. I am mearly telling you the cold, hard truth. At least that way you'll have some idea of what's ahead...or would you rather get blindsided. Ignorance is not bliss. If you know the truth, at least you'll have the time and opportunity to set up a good support system? FYI, pathology is probably the ONLY residency that doesn't have terrible hours. I recently heard that now they don't even have to do an internship! Regardless, it is hardly the prototypical residency. If your mentor is a pathologist, I'm sure she had no problems raising kids. However, very few people are interested in that specialty.

 

[radspouse]

Hmmm, well my husband is in the middle of his third year of residency and we have four children (our fourth child was born during his intern year). We've talked this over many times in our marriage (ie what PainDr referred to as the difficulties associated with doctors in training having children). PainDr has some valid points concerning *some* residency programs and specialties but his sweeping generalizations are just that - sweeping generalizations. My husband and I, looking back on the last eight and a half years of marriage would have changed many of our reactions and decisions - but we are in agreement that we do NOT regret having our children when we did and we do NOT regret any of his medical training. Both life-changing situations are difficult in unique ways but neither automatically spell disaster for a physician, his/her children, or a marriage. Now, in saying this I must acknowledge that certain specialties (such as radiology - my husband's chosen specialty and one, I might add, that is HIGHLY popular, PainDr) are much easier towards parenthood than others. Program directors can also affect a resident's personal life dramatically so some programs within a specialty can be worse than others towards parents.

My husband's average rotation requires him to be at the hospital at about 7:30 to 8 am. He generally leaves the hospital by 6:30 pm. His program has a night-float system rather than the old-fashioned, draconian "call nights". So, his program is geared towards treating residents like human beings. He has a fairly low-stress work environment according to him (he absolutely LOVES what he does everyday as well as his program). I have approached him in the past with concern that it might not be best for him to be around his children at the end of a day as it could add to his stress level. His response? That being with his family at the end of the day LOWERS his stress level. Perhaps he is unique in viewing his family in such a positive way. Perhaps many of the problems alluded to by PainDr have less to do with the career of medicine and more to do with the individual physican and his/her emotional issues with children.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I would like to add that both ophtho and derm are very family friendly programs.

 

[Stinky Tofu]

I'd agree with radspouse that it really depends on which specialty you are in. While an intern, I remember we had a few people who either had babies or their spouse did. The program hardly gave them any time off at all and any time that was given had to be made up. This was pretty much impossible for those going on to another specialty. On the other hand, in my PM&R residency, we've had two women who have had babies and each were given two months of paid leave (which is a significant amount of money at my program) and they still got their vacation/educational leave time too. They didn't have to make up the time either. One of them actually got two months off when she first started too because she was simply burnt out from the stresses of both internship and having a baby during that time as well. So, she got a total of four months off and is going to graduate on time.

As a PGY-2, we probably average around 60 hrs/wk because we are on call approximately Q7. As a PGY-3, we probably average 45 hrs/wk and that includes being on call Q14. As a PGY-4, we don't have any call at all and probably average 40 hrs/wk. At least at my program, residency doesn't seem like a bad time at all to have a baby.

 

[kilroth]

So what are all the professions that are family friendly in both residency and career?

My guess:
Derm, Optho, PM&R, Radiology, Family Practice

ER??

Feel free to add.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by kilroth
So what are all the professions that are family friendly in both residency and career?

My guess:
Derm, Optho, PM&R, Radiology, Family Practice

ER??

Feel free to add.

I'd add: radiation oncology, psych, pathology, and possibly ER (for the possibility of 5 days on, 5 days off).

 

[pathdr2b]

Life is about choices. Make good ones, end up reasonably happy. Make bad ones..................... I haven't seriously considered ANY other career path since I learned that there's no internship year for pathologists not to mention all the real "science" involved.

Furthermore, I resent the comment that few people are interested in pathology

 

[12R34Y]

I think painDr unfortunately has seen many bad situations.......many have not seen these "bad things".

My closest friend finished her EM residency have 2 children DURING RESIDENCY!. no problems. very happy and would do it again.

3 of the attendings I work with in the ED in suburbia ALL had children during medical school (mostly during residency) and all are extremely glad that they did. Very happy, well-adjusted kids. trust me I've asked.......they always say no regrets.

Currently, I'm only a second year, and have a 9 month old. It's awesome. I know clinics and residency are approaching, but we're not going to let that interfere. Planning on another (God-willing) during 4th year.

having a stay at home wife makes a big difference also, which mine is.

So, bottom line.........don't let your career affect your entire life to that degree. It doesn't have to be that way as evidenced by many people who have done it before you.

later

 

[@70mphC2005--->]

I had thought about ways of having children in medical training - during second year and take a year off before rotations, take a year off before residency, or after training. Why? because I don't believe having children during medical training is healthy.

Although current studies show that there seems to be no long term risks to the baby while in medical training, unfortunately there are higher rates of low birth weight and delivery complications among residents. In addition, many in the program may resent you for having children during residency. I've heard others often feel it to be a burden among them for one resident to have a baby and take time off. Although program directors are not supposed to discriminate, unfortunately there are some adverse changes in their behavior when someone becomes pregnant.

But I did not follow the straight path to medical school, so I am concerned of my age. I hate to say this, but when I see some patients that display learning disabilities or mild mental ******ation, sometimes they say their mother was older (40's) at the time of their birth. Significant risks are known to occur after age 35 unfortunately.

I have been reading about egg cryopreservation, but this technique seems far too experimental and risky. But there is demand for research in this because of women who want to delay birth because of a career or for cancer patients who want to preserve eggs before chemotherapy/radiation, etc. Removing ovarian tissue seems to have a reasonable success rate, but it involves taking out one ovary which leads to earlier age of menopause (~45 versus 51) and subsequent risks of osteoporosis, heart disease, etc.

So this is a tough decision. There are a couple of questions to think about - would you rather have a child who may be healthier but unable to receive the kind of care from their mother desirable during residency? Or would you rather wait and risk a more complicated birth but be able to choose the time you spend to care for the child? Hopefully you can find some compromise.

Just so you know, I've heard there is a residency couples match where each person takes on half the work as though they matched one person- but 2 people are doing the work of 1. I don't know much about how this works but it seems like a good idea for someone who wants to raise a child.

 

[Caverject]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
BTW, could someone please name the career that requires an iota of brain power and that's just perfect for working women with families?

Becoming a pharmacist is a great job for women with families since you get vacation, no pager (usually), every other weekend off and a decent 40 hour work schedule that stays the same from week to week

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Originally posted by South2006
Becoming a pharmacist is a great job for women with families since you get vacation, no pager (usually), every other weekend off and a decent 40 hour work schedule that stays the same from week to week

Sounds like dermatology and ophthalmology, except there's a pager that occ. goes off!

 

[pathdr2b]

Sounds like dermatology and ophthalmology, except there's a pager that occ. goes off!

And let's not forget Pathology!

 

[zinjanthropus]

Can I ask a economic question about having kids in medical school?

Will having a child increase your yearly budget? If so, does this equate to a larger financial aid award? If not, does having a kid lower your EFC significantly such that you are eligible for a larger financial aid award?

Thanks.

 

[smc927]

It is a myth to think that you can have everything: a demanding career and a family life. Sure you can have it, but you won't be successful at either.

Russell M. Nelson - one of the pioneers of open heart surgery. Incredibly successful in his career. His 10 children praise him as not only a man who has done wonderful things to further the science but also as a loving, tender, caring father who DID spend time with them, in spite of his busy and demanding career.

 

[smc927]

Will having a child increase your yearly budget? If so, does this equate to a larger financial aid award? If not, does having a kid lower your EFC significantly such that you are eligible for a larger financial aid award?

I'm still applying to med school so I can only tell you that having a wife and child made much more money available to me as an undergraduate student. The AMCAS application specifically asks about dependents.

 

[bjolly]

my financial aid office told me that you can get extra money added to your budget for day care.

 

[k's mom]

undergrad EFC is GREAT when you have children, graduate school is not so generous. You can get increased money (LOANS) for DAYCARE expenses. That is about it. However, unless you have a spouse working for fairly big bucks, you can usually get your child(ren) onto a state sponsored health care program (saves lots of money).

 

[double elle]

I LOVE debating this topic. I just finished my 3rd year and had a baby in November of my 2nd year. My husband works a FULL-TIME, SELF-EMPLOYED job (ie - he can't stay at home). Our daughter is in day-care from 9-ish until no later than 5 (she loves it). I don't see her in the mornings. My husband gets her up, fed, and out the door. She is 19 months. If I get out of clinicals early enough to pick her up - I race to get her! I spend the entire weekend with her while my husband takes some time for himself.

Now - this sounds all great, right? And, 95% of the time, it really is great. However, the other 5% should make people really stop and think about having a child in medical school. I had my first 29 hour shift a couple of weeks ago. My husband was shell-shocked. I am planning on going into surgery, so he was thinking "oh my god - this will happen frequently pretty soon and I have so much responsibility." After discussing it and after he got over the initial shock - we were fine.

PainDR is right with some of his points. I have had SO many terrible things said to me because of my desire to do surgery. (oh, you'll get to know your kid again in about 10 years.) Yeah, things like that. (What about your daughter?) It's been really discouraging. The bottom line - surgery (and medicine in general) give me a positive energy that everyone notices. Even though my surgery rotations have kept me away from home - my husband was the first to say "hey, you brought all that positive energy home and you were so happy - everyone could feel it." This is coming from a guy who likes to hunt from september until march (on top of his job) and golf all summer. He LOVES his free time - but still sees how we can make it work.

As for my daughter - well, she is just as intense as me. She does NOT need to be around me all the time and clearly lets me know it. Yes, she does need me...that isn't what I'm saying. Having her in medical school has forced me to be creative in how I spend my time with her. I take her running with me. I take her to the library, to the store...everywhere. She enjoys every thing we do together. We sing in the car, we stop along the side of the road to see turtles of cows.....she isn't lacking one bit in motherly love or time.

Now, is it going to be this way for everyone? No, it isn't. It all depends on what has prepared you to handle this much stress and this much stuff shoved into a single 24-hour period. If you've had life handed to you and the only thing you've worked for since you were 5 was medical school - then I'd say you better wait until you have a little more 'life-experience'. However, if you've worked 3 jobs while being full-time student in undergrad, having no parents to help you because they died when you were young and you were left on your own at 17....and ended up choosing the paths along the way that got you clear to medical school......then, hey...you just may be able to handle it.

Now - since I am the mommy, I need to put in my opinion about moms vs dads in medical school. My class was FILLED with dads. But, I was the only one who actually had a baby in my class those first two years. If you are a guy and your wife stays at home....great for you. However, no matter what anyone says....and I'll get flamed for this.....it is DIFFERENT when you are the mommy. Although dads love thier children, moms REALLY LOVE thier children! Mommies have chests that ache when they think about their children. Their eyes fill with tears and their hearts come up in their throats. I asked a classmate of mine who has 3 kids how he decided to do surgery, given that he'll be away so much. His reply:"I've just resigned to the fact that my contribution to my children will be supporting them financially". Um - I can't be just financial support!!! I want to be there with my child!! However, I want to be a surgeon too!!
Okay - moving on from the mushy stuff - let's get to the practical stuff. Again, being the mommy is different. After you come home from class - but before you get to sit down and study - there are baths to take, books to read, tickles to give, and bedtime (only god knows how long bedtime will take). No matter how supportive a husband may be, mommy's will always have those 'certain' things only mommy's do (whatever they may be at your house). Here, I do dinner, bath, and bedtime. When that is finally over, I am exhausted. Seldom do I get any reading in after I come home from clinicals. Since I have our daughter for most weekends while my husband does his extra-curriculars, I get a little jealous that my 'free-time' consists of dealing with tantrums, cleaning house, and laundry. When is my tee-time? When do I get to go out with my friends (without taking the baby?)?

My post could go on and on. When you read it - it reads scattered and disorganized....because that's what I feel my life is!!

I have a perfect daughter and a wonderful husband. I have it all. I've come from poverty and literally being an orphan to almost a surgeon.

Am I happy? Oh, God, Yes. In the middle of the stresses and the exhaustion there is this REASON for each day.

Is it easy? Not at all. But few things worth anything are ever easy.

Bottom line - PainDR is right - you need to THINK about having children in medical school. It's not easy. If you are male, it's not right for your wife to have to raise kids 'alone' (as some would say) - if she has her own dreams and goals. It's NOT right to have a bunch of kids and go on welfare. I agree with Paindr - if you can't financially afford children, it shouldn't be up to society to finance your children when some taxpayers can't afford their own. If you are a female - mommy-guilt hits you twice as hard when you have to go to class or clinicals. I know there will be times I can't come home. That's why I am choosing to do my residency where we only live 6 miles from the hospital and my husband can bring my daugher to me, even if I can't come home. Also, we don't have family close. Our friends just drop the kids off at grandmas.....we can't do that. THink about that before deciding to have kids. MOST couples need help at times...medical school couples need help a lot of the time.

It's all about how YOU decide to do it, what YOU can handle, and the sacrifices YOU are OK with. If you work hard, manage your time, have a supportive husband/spouse....then it won't be 100% impossible - just 99% impossible!

Seriously - it's doable.....but it really is tough at times.

 

[zeebs]

double-elle, what a great post! how did it go studying for step one with a young baby?

 

[double elle]

Although I 'reviewed' things along the way - the majority of time was spent studying from 9-5 during the 2 weeks we had off before the boards. My partner and I would 'assign' eachother what we would teach to one another the next day. We each 'taught' what we were weak in - so it forced us to really have a lesson down pat for the next day - and it was review for the person who was stronger in the subject.

I used to be a high-school teacher...so I think it helps to be able to teach it. And to teach it and not look like a fool...well, you better know it pretty well.

I didn't score in the 90th percentile, but I passed.

 

[pathdr2b]

However, if you've worked 3 jobs while being full-time student in undergrad, having no parents to help you because they died when you were young and you were left on your own at 17...then, hey...you just may be able to handle it.

This is an excellent point and your entire post was great. Perhaps the reason I'm so optimistic about being able to "handle it' is because as far as trials and tribulations go, I've certainily had my fair share. From working 3 jobs as a single full-time undergraduate to being a graduate student in Chemistry while also a wife, mother of an infant, AND care giver for my Dad following a stroke followed by terminal cancer, I've done it all. Therefore, attending medical school, with NO financial worries as a wife (again ) and hopefully a mother of 2 will seem like a day in the park to me.

 

[kaos]

pmed u double elle

 

[double elle]

Hey, all -
I just want to go back and state that I do NOT intend to display an opinoin that just because you've been fortunate in life....that you won't be able to handle the stresses that come along with all this. I just found that after all my experiences, and going into medical school with the worst fears of failing and fears of how hard I will have to work.......

It seriously was comparitively (is that a word?) easier that many of my experiences. I was actually pleasantly surprised. Did I have to work hard in medical school? Yes, but since I'd already had to bust my butt just to get there - I wasn't shell-shocked like a lot of my classmates who are those 'naturally smart people' (that should be beaten! haha) that really didn't have to work all that hard in undergrad. I saw some of those people get so down and depressed because they literally lost all they loved to do because they found they actually had to stay inside and study. Now, after the initial period, most people find their routines and settle in fine.....

However, adding a kid/family into the mix isn't to be taken lightly.

I just didn't want those of you who haven't been 'in our shoes' and have been fortunate enough to have had help and have had a rather good life to think I was putting you down and saying you were less able to handle things. That isn't what I mean. I just think that until you face extreme trials and tribulations - and get thru them successfully - you may be a little more unprepared for some situations that seem to demand more from you than you've ever had to give.

I hope that makes sense....Sometimes I wonder if I EVER make sense!

 

[nineisfine]

I am new to this site but happened upon it today by accident while searching for a very different answer....I now feel I must share my family's story with all of you who are wondering if you should have children in medical school or wait, or for those of you that are searching and waiting for the perfect time....my husband is a 3rd year and also the father of our 7 children who range from 1yr. to 12yrs. He is frightfully busy, and spread very thin but without question he is the best father. There is no question that medical school has been more challenging for him because of his obligations within the walls of his home. He has never had enough time to study, is not one of the 'naturally' smart, he was not a science major in undergrad so the sciences really threw him in the first two years. He survived though, passed all of his classes, and attended all but a small handfull of the programs/games that involved his children.

There is not any given moment in our lives that we will have money, time, and energy all set in place to share with our children. Parenting children is done in pairs so that when one is unable to be there the other can pick up the slack....as for money...for the most part children do not require too much esp. when they are young!

I could go on and on...I guess more then anything else it is important to follow your own heart. If it tells you to have a baby then do so and plan as well as you can. My husband's school offered to slow the first two years down so that you could graduate in 5 years instead of 4. That was not an option for me and consequently he had the larger challenge of making it all work in the 4 years....he chose med school and so for us some of the other peripheral decisions are made by my loud and opinionated voice.

For those of you that see it as selfish to have children at the less opportune times perhaps need to re-examine your own short sitedness. Perfectionism is perhaps the greatest fault found amonst the medical students, residents, and young docs--life is not every going to be just right. Stive for it to be wonderful but do not rob yourself of growth because it will not be ideal.

Enough from me....

 

[pathdr2b]

I am new to this site but happened upon it today by accident while searching for a very different answer....I now feel I must share my family's story with all of you who are wondering if you should have children in medical school or wait, or for those of you that are searching and waiting for the perfect time....my husband is a 3rd year and also the father of our 7 children who range from 1yr. to 12yrs. He is frightfully busy, and spread very thin but without question he is the best father. There is no question that medical school has been more challenging for him because of his obligations within the walls of his home. He has never had enough time to study, is not one of the 'naturally' smart, he was not a science major in undergrad so the sciences really threw him in the first two years. He survived though, passed all of his classes, and attended all but a small handfull of the programs/games that involved his children.

There is not any given moment in our lives that we will have money, time, and energy all set in place to share with our children. Parenting children is done in pairs so that when one is unable to be there the other can pick up the slack....as for money...for the most part children do not require too much esp. when they are young!

I could go on and on...I guess more then anything else it is important to follow your own heart. If it tells you to have a baby then do so and plan as well as you can. My husband's school offered to slow the first two years down so that you could graduate in 5 years instead of 4. That was not an option for me and consequently he had the larger challenge of making it all work in the 4 years....he chose med school and so for us some of the other peripheral decisions are made by my loud and opinionated voice.

For those of you that see it as selfish to have children at the less opportune times perhaps need to re-examine your own short sitedness. Perfectionism is perhaps the greatest fault found amonst the medical students, residents, and young docs--life is not every going to be just right. Stive for it to be wonderful but do not rob yourself of growth because it will not be ideal.

Enough from me....

7 kids, WOW Now I don't feel so "crazy" for wanting 5 kids!

 

[cricketnmatt]

For us, we waited until residency. Our situation is we married right after 1st year of medical school. I was finishing my bachelors and working at a nice cush job, so we decided to hold off for those reasons until residency.

Matt is an anesthesia resident. He opted to do internal med for his internship at his alma mater, and anesthesia training elsewhere. We had our daughter (Emma) 6 months into his internship. His dept was great- Emma decided to come the last day of Matt's vacation. However, Matt was smart and scheduled an easy rotation (ER Med) during the month of her expected arrival, thus his dept. shifted his schedule around so Matt could be home with us for a few extra days. Also Matt arranged the following three months of rotations be "easy" months.

Our second child was born the beginning of the CA-3 year. The anesthesia dept stepped up, and arranged Matt's schedule for him to have 2 weeks off. Matt had asked for no time off and requested an easy no-call month, as we had family coming, and the dept chair asked "Do you want to stay married to your wife? If so you will take time off."

Our situation is unique in that Matt has a fairly family friendly specialty (anesthesia). Is it hard? Yeah, but having children no matter what profession, med specialty or time of your life is going to be hard. You have to determine if you are ready to add more responsibilities to your plate. For us the good far outweighs the bad. As Matt likes to say "I'm already sleep-deprived, what's a little less sleep?" (There have been some nights he has joke about going to the hospital because he has gotten more sleep there).

Just a side note- I admire all you moms out there who are in medical school or residency! Kudos to you!

Crystal

 

[cricketnmatt]

Those of you who are just spouses really have no idea of the physical, mental and emotional demands of medschool and residency. You may think you know, but you really don't. In fact, there was a study that evaluated stressful life events and found only three that truly and profoundly change a person...war time combat, childbirth and becoming a physician. It's hard enough to spend 80 hrs a week making life and death decisions, but then to come home to children who want and need your undivided attention, (if they're still awake) is monumentally difficult. It is NOT like having a regular job or even two regular jobs. Think about what it's like for kids to go days without even seeing mommy/daddy?(

I guess I am a little irked at the wording. Just "those of us" who are the "doting supportive" women to husbands who are going through the emotional, physical, and mental demands of med school and residency. The same women who have gone through the life altering experience of childbirth. Being a mother is like having two full-time jobs, and I would like to think that being a medical spouse with children is like having 2 1/2 jobs. Now I am not saying one is easier than the other, but I think as spouses we understand a whole heck of lot more than you are giving us credit for. Yeah, my husband will never know physically what it is like giving birth w/o meds, but he knows that it was hard just by seeing me go through it. Just as I don't know what it's like to hold a person's life in the balance day in and day out, but I know it's difficult just by talking and seeing Matt go through it.

It's hard enough to spend 80 hrs a week making life and death decisions, but then to come home to children who want and need your undivided attention, (if they're still awake) is monumentally difficult. It is NOT like having a regular job or even two regular jobs. Think about what it's like for kids to go days without even seeing mommy/daddy?(

You know medical spouses could make the same arguement especially when they are stay at home parents. I know there are some rotations when I am clock-watching as to when Matt just might walk through the door just so I can hear another adult say my name, instead of "Mommy, mommy!" Matt thinks being a stay at home mother is way harder than being a doctor, he says "At least I can take a vacation! or quit if I want to. You are committed to this job for life." There have been days when he has walked through the door looked at my face and said "I see my day has been way better than your's, do I need to bring some "gas" home from the hospital for tomorrow?"

It's hard enough to spend 80 hrs a week making life and death decisions, but then to come home to children who want and need your undivided attention, (if they're still awake) is monumentally difficult. It is NOT like having a regular job or even two regular jobs. Think about what it's like for kids to go days without even seeing mommy/daddy? You may think I'm exaggerating but I've seen it first hand. Then you have to deal with your collegues who, although really happy for you, are not thrilled about adding more work to their already impossible schedules. It's not fair to anyone involved, but it's probably the kids who suffer the most. I guess what I don't understand is the need to have kids NOW. What's wrong with having them later, when you have the time for them? In response to one of the above posters, yes, your schedule DOES get better after residency. Even the last years of residency and fellowship aren't as bad. I now average only 60 hrs a week (although just last week I clocked 83) compared to the 80 I averaged as an intern and 2nd year. Also, none of these numbers include study time, which adds another 10-20 hrs a week. Personally, I've decided to wait. Yes, I am taking a risk by waiting so long, but I don't care. I just can't justify forcing a child to suffer in order to satisfy MY needs!

At least for Matt, our children are a good stress reliever for him. He could be dead tired, and the first thing he says when he gets home "Daddy's home! who wants to play (go to the park, library, swimming, whatever)?!" Granted if he answers my question of "How much sleep did you get?" with "15-20 minutes" I point my finger to our bedroom and say "No playtime for Daddy until he takes a 3 hour nap!"

As far as waiting, for some of us, if we waited it would be too late. Having a child is purely up to the couple. You have to evaluate what things in your life you can handle. For us, both times were the right time, and both children have fit into our lives smoothly.

Now with all of this said. You do make some good points. I remember recently when my daughter (2 1/2 yrs) went around are home saying "Daddy?! Where are you?" I explained "Daddy is at work and will come home tomorrow." She sat on the ground in front of the door and cried "No Daddy come home now and soon." However, you make it work. You find ways to make up for "lost time." We take dinner to Matt on occasion, or our daughter gets to talk to Daddy on the phone during overnight calls.

Crystal

 

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

just curious, how does it work with delivery time, when the baby comes...How much time did you moms take off, did you fall behind?