help me to rank these residency programs

[serff]

Hi,

Please help me to rank following Internal Medicine residency programs. The order I listed them is my current understanding of their rank. What important to me is: reputation, quality of education. Less important: fellowships. I do not care about: scutwork, location.

The notation I put in front of the program:
1 - university based, 2 - community based, 5 - university affiliated

Please share your thoughts and advise whether I should move some program up or down according to the criteria I mentioned. These programs are located on the east. And I want to move to California after residency (and/or fellowship). So that is why the reputation is important to me.


Ivy League
1 NY Presbyterian Hospital (Columbia Campus), NY, NY
1 Mayo Graduate School of Medicine, Rochester, MN
1 Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX
1 University Hospitals of Cleveland/Case Western, Cleveland, OH
1 Emory University, Atlanta, GA

Second tier
1 Albert Einstein College of Medicine (Montefiore), Bronx, NY
1 Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Beth Israel, NY, NY
1 North Shore University Hospital/NYU, Manhasset, NY
1 University of MN, Minneapolis, MN
1 Boston University, Boston, MA
1 Brown University, Providence, RI
1 University of FL, Gainesville, FL
1 Jackson Memorial Hospital, Miami, FL
1 Albert Einstein College of Medicine (Jacobi), Bronx, NY
1 University of CT (New Britain), Farmington, CT
1 University of CT, Farmington, CT


Third tier
1 Johns Hopkins University/Bayview, Baltimore, MD
1 SUNY at Stony Brook, Stony Brook, NY
1 UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson, New Brunswick, NJ
1 UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School, Newark, NJ
1 Case Western Reserve University (MetroHealth), Cleveland, OH
1 NY Medical College at Westchester, Valhalla, NY
1 University of Texas, Houston, TX
1 Temple University, Philadelphia, PA
1 Loyola University, Maywood, IL
5 Johns Hopkins University/Sinai Hospital, Baltimore, MD
5 William Beaumont Hospital, Royal Oak, Michigan
5 Lenox Hill Hospital, NY, NY
5 Henry Ford Hospital, Detroit, Michigan
1 MCP Hahnemann University (Drexel), Philadelphia, PA
2 Baylor University Medical Center, Dallas, TX
5 Mount Auburn Hospital, Cambridge, MA
5 Albert Einstein Medical Center, Philadelphia, PA
5 Norwalk Hospital, Norwalk, CT


Last tier
1 SUNY Health Science Center (SUNY Downstate), Brooklyn, NY
5 Winthrop-University Hospital, Mineola, NY
5 Maimonides Medical Center, Brooklyn, NY
5 NY Hospital Medical Center of Queens/Cornell, Flushing, NY
2 Danbury Hospital, Danbury, CT
2 Hospital of St Raphael, New Haven, CT
5 St Francis Hospital of Evanston, Evanston, IL
5 Lankenau Hospital, Wynnewood, PA
2 Cook County Hospital, Chicago, IL

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[ny skindoc]

Many people will argue about the tiers you placed some of these hospitals(I would change the list considerably) but since it seems you dont care about fellowships and are looking to clinical practice in California...once you get past the most competitive programs it wont matter much.I would rank them after interviews based on your impressions and experiences there.

 

[gas-x]

yeah,

i'll get to work on your rank. are you nuts? why don't you visit these places first and make your own opinion. you can't go wrong, you know.

 

[Dr JPH]

I'm from Connecticut. It's nice there. Farmington is a great palce to live.

I go to school in Philadelphia.

Temple hospital is not in a nice part of the city.

Go to Connecticut.

(Go Huskies!)

 

[serff]

Originally posted by ny skindoc
Many people will argue about the tiers you placed some of these hospitals(I would change the list considerably) but since it seems you dont care about fellowships and are looking to clinical practice in California...once you get past the most competitive programs it wont matter much.

Hey skindoc,

please share your thoughts. How would you change the list? That is why I am asking. I care about fellowships.

Originally posted by ny skindoc
I would rank them after interviews based on your impressions and experiences there.

I need to know where to go for interview. I don't want to go to the top programs only (I mean as "top" as I can get) and then left unmatched (can happen easily to me). Neither want I underestimate myself.

And now, once invitations started coming in, I have a difficult time deciding which of them to accept, which to reschedule, and which to cancel.

Thanks a lot.

 

[DR]

I agree with the others. I think many would question your 'rank' list. You've got some programs listed there that may not fit where you are putting them. Of course, a lot of this is very subjective, so it is important (I know this is terribly cliche, but it's true) that you really like the place. I think that the country is filled with people who picked their residency based on prestige and the name, and then realized in retrospect that they would be much happier elsewhere. It depends on what you want; as an advisor once put it to me "you know, you don't strike me as the type of guy who would take it if someone stepped on you to get ahead"...he's right, and that's important that you know that about yourself. Some people don't mind that sort of thing (not me), and believe me, some of those "top tier" programs are full of gunners and bulldozers, who'll roll right over you to make the better impression. Choose where you will be happy.

(P.S. -the Connecticut program has excellent teaching, but the region is boring as can be!)

 

[Fanconi]

And now, once invitations started coming in, I have a difficult time deciding which of them to accept, which to reschedule, and which to cancel.

I'm feeling your pain. Moreover, I'm having difficulty deciding what I prefer: (1) a decent program in a great location (eg, Brown, Dartmouth), or (2) a really great program in a crappy location (eg, Mayo). *shrug*

 

[ny skindoc]

I would not put Beth Israel in NY ahead of Temple or CWRU or Hopkins affiliates in terms of reputation.. just to start. I think your sources of infomation are incomplete.The hospitals on your list are so different in so many ways that its not possible to rank them against each other.You need to clarify your interests.
A smaller community hospital in Connecticut cannot be compared to a large unversity program in inner city Brooklyn.The same person is unlikely to prosper at both places.Are you interested in a very high power academic program? very tertiary patients? public hospital or private...the patients and style of teaching are often very different.Also your educational backround should be considered,what kinds of hospitals are you familiar with? Where did you go to med school and how did you do on the boards... if it was not a US school about one third of these hospitals listed are going to be very hard to get into.

 

[serff]

Thanks guys for all your advices, I really appreciate it.

You are right about my eclectic choice of programs. Being an IMG explains it. These programs do not require US clinical experience. I did not do any rotations in US, just observership - that is how I compiled the list. I recently graduated from a Russian med school. That is a big hindrance, I know. I did 97/96 on USMLE steps 1/2. Have strong LoRs from US physicians who are not "well-known".

Answering your questions:

1) "would you take it if someone stepped on you to get ahead?". I am pretty sure nobody likes it. But I understand that. The more competitive the place the more of this crap you would probably have to go through.

2) "Are you interested in a very high power academic program?". No. Just as academic as to be able to secure a fellowship and to be able to find the job in a place I want (not in a place where they have shortage of specialists).

3) "very tertiary patients?". There are places where they have a lof them? Probably no.

4) "public hospital or private?". Both are fine with me.

5) "the patients and style of teaching are often very different". I prefer more formal type of teaching.

6) "if it was not a US school about one third of these hospitals listed are going to be very hard to get into". I understand this. So I want to concentrate on and research the middle part of my list. Again the list might be wrong as you have legitimately pointed out.

I still have this problem: invites are coming in and I am not sure which to accept. And sometimes I need to act fast. That is why I put out the whole list.

For example, when NYMC at Westchester and Johns Hopkins University/Sinai sent their invites, I had to reschedule Danbury Hospital. Luckily it was not Maimonides, for these guys would be less willing to reschedule.

So, ny_skindoc, are you saying that Temple Univ would be more "bell-ringing" in California than Albert Einstein (Beth Israel)? As for being Hopkins affiliate - how different is that from Hopkins itself?

Pardon my utilitarianism, guys. I am not that bad in life.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Johns Hopkins University/Sinai

I worked here and strongly considered doing my internship here. This is a very good program.

Of course, this program is nothing in comparison to the Osler Residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital.

 

[Lara]

Are California residencies out of the question? Because while there are definitely some ultra-competitive programs out there (from UCSF, UCLA, Stanford etc) I've also heard of unmatched spots...I *think* Fresno was one of the areas. So even as an IMG I figure if you really want to be in CA, you can. And I'd guess that being there for residency would help (though to what extent I have no idea) in establishing a future practice.

That said, as a rather probable future IM applicant I'd be interested in hearing opinions on the programs serff listed.

 

[mikecwru]

What is the reputation among IM people for CWRU/University Hosp? I didn't think it was as strong as some of you are suggesting.

mike

 

[abu barney]

Now what happens if you schedule an interview, but then you need to cancel? Can this harm you in any way, assuming you're no longer interested in attending that particular program? I always thought it'd be pretty straight forward.

 

[ny skindoc]

My last input on this subject is that your primary focus should be on securing a residency match someplace.With your educational backround and lack of US clinical experience this could be more of a problem than you think... it is not a sure thing at any of the listed hospitals.Find out where others from your country have matched and try to visit these places and perhaps meet with the program director.That is your best bet,going to hospitals that are IMG friendly.Many of your choices are not. My guess is your list will be much shorter and you will have a clearer idea of where to go.If you train at a reputable place and pass your board certification it wont matter.Few of these hospitals will "ring bells' in California,but it cant hurt to apply wherever you'd like and see what happens.
Good Luck!

 

[SDMD2B]

Some quick words about California from a Californian...

You would be very wise to look into a couple of California programs as well if you really want to end up practicine here. I think someone mentioned the UCSF-Fresno program--certainly not the most beautiful part of the state, but the affiliation with UCSF is valuable. I know this program has had difficulty filling because of the location, but if you want something with reputation that may lead to a career in California...I say check it out.

On the other hand, you will be heading the wrong way against the rush-hour traffic of California pre-meds who populated schools around the country because they couldn't get in to a California med school. They come back in droves trying to return to their old haunts, their families and friends (not to mention the weather). I know a good handful of people from my undergrad days at UCLA who are now gunning hard for those CA residency spots to 'return home'.

 

[scaredapplicant]

you are absolutely right about Californians returning home. I happen to be one of them. I do think CA residency programs do look at that to a certain degree (i.e. if you did undergrad in CA and/or have family there).. atleast that is what i was told. so between the CA medical students and out-of-state Californians, the competition for CA programs is intense.

 

[serff]

Originally posted by SDMD2B
Some quick words about California from a Californian...

You would be very wise to look into a couple of California programs as well if you really want to end up practicine here. I think someone mentioned the UCSF-Fresno program--certainly not the most beautiful part of the state, but the affiliation with UCSF is valuable. I know this program has had difficulty filling because of the location, but if you want something with reputation that may lead to a career in California...I say check it out.

So you are saying that it's better to join a lower tier program in CA then a good one in another state if I want to practice in CA, aren't ya?

I always thought that they don't teach a lot at UCSF-Fresno. They arguably have the worst ABIM pass rate in IM - 55%. I don't remember any program in US that has lower rate. Also they "habitually" have spots unfilled. So my understanding was that you might have problems finding job after this residency. For everyone in CA knows about it.

As far as trying to match there for its CA location - come on, it's not CA. It's rather NV.

I kinda have "a foot in the door" in Alameda County Program in Oakland. This is my only hope. I don't have California Status Letter. You need it before starting residency, but all programs require it before appy deadline. And these guys sometimes allow you to start your residency at January.

Anyway, thanks guys for your help and advice.

Still no suggestions on that rank though