Help me with my Fiance.

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
H

helpmyfiance

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Ok. So, my Fiance has told me she wants to go back to school to get her Psy D after we get married next may. Here is my problem. She wants to go to Adler here in Chicago. Obviously, my problem is that Adler tuition is around $40,000 a year. And now that we are getting married, i would rather not have $200,000 in debt. The main reason to go here is because you don't need GRE to get in. She hasn't taken it yet. I would rather her take the GRE and then try to get in to other schools in the area, like Wheaton, etc. Here is a little about her so that someone can help me convince her one way or the other:

i would like to be a counselor
i would like to eventually have my own practice
or I would like to work in a community health clinic or hospital
I would like to focus on survivors of ptsd and trauma
I would like to work for the new VA hospital

BA in psychology
BA in religious studies
next spring i will have a cert in addiction studies
Currently she is the Women's Program Director at a Domestic Violence Shelter here in Chicago.

3.1 gpa in college. Higher Psych GPA but 3.1 overall.

So, can someone please help educate me on this? Thanks
Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
helpmyfiance said:
Ok. So, my Fiance has told me she wants to go back to school to get her Psy D after we get married next may. Here is my problem. She wants to go to Adler here in Chicago. Obviously, my problem is that Adler tuition is around $40,000 a year. And now that we are getting married, i would rather not have $200,000 in debt. The main reason to go here is because you don't need GRE to get in. She hasn't taken it yet. I would rather her take the GRE and then try to get in to other schools in the area, like Wheaton, etc. Here is a little about her so that someone can help me convince her one way or the other:

i would like to be a counselor
i would like to eventually have my own practice
or I would like to work in a community health clinic or hospital
I would like to focus on survivors of ptsd and trauma
I would like to work for the new VA hospital

BA in psychology
BA in religious studies
next spring i will have a cert in addiction studies

3.1 gpa in college. Higher Psych GPA but 3.1 overall.

So, can someone please help educate me on this? Thanks
Click to expand...

Dude, tell you fiancé to log on to SDN herself, post her situation on the What Are My Chances (WAMC) thread, and a serious reality bite will kick in.:idea: If she chooses not to do that, tell her "it's time to grow up, honey."

In order to be in this field, you must absorb yourself in your and other people's realities. If she can't face her own, or is seriously deluded about it, there is no way she's gaining admission to even the most lenient, most expensive professional program.

Not taking a GRE so you can get into one training program is just ludicrous. But, my friend, do not convey this information to her...lead her to this fountain of knowledge (SDN) and let her drink...
 
Get a masters degree,
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
I will eventually send her this thread i believe. But i'm just trying to get as much info as possible. She is Currently in school getting a cert in addiction studies and she has a 4.0. I have no doubt she would be a great student and could get into a program. I didn't say she didn't take the GRE on purpose. She just didn't know what she was going to do, so she never took it after graduating.
 
helpmyfiance said:
I have no doubt she would be a great student and could get into a program.
Click to expand...

You are sweet and supportive. But, you can't walk this walk or talk this talk for her.

I agree with erg923 - encourage her to get a master's. Especially a terminal master's degree, in case she abandons the clinical psychology idea. But, please don't ask what a terminal master's is...search the forum if you want to be more educated about this game, unless this is your field too. By what you've posted, many things are missing (who are her recommenders? what are her research and volunteer experiences? A 3.1 won't get you diddly...and a 4.0 in a certificate program may help...but it may be considered a bonus...it is not comparable to a master's degree with a 4.0).

Helpmyfinance...don't answer these questions...they are rhetorical. I would strongly encourage you to have her post here herself. As you may notice, I do not advocate for other's doing the leg work for someone else...it can be problematic...especially if she doesn't want you to know more than she does about her field of training before she gets a chance to discover it on her own. Resist against this urge...and advise her to set up her own account.
 
Last edited:
If she's geographically-limited (i.e., moving around the country for grad school, internship, and possibly post-doc isn't an option), then erg's suggestion of pursuing a masters could be her best bet. Additionally, as it sounds like she would want to focus primarily on clinical work rather than including other things such as research, supervision, administration, program evaluation and development, again, a masters could be a better alternative...if nothing else, it might help her to gain more exposure to the field, and to determine if pursuing a doctorate is really what she needs and wants to do.

That being said, if she's set on a doctorate, then for Adler's Psy.D. program...

-The median years to completion is 5, while the mean is 6 (and with not-insignificant numbers finishing in 7); factoring in that tuition is actually nearly $43k + $800 in fees and $2500 in "additional estimated fees or costs to students," the total cost will probably be closer to $230-280k

-Class sizes are huge (>100 for the past 2 years and >50 since at least 2005, compared with something like 6-12 for many traditional Ph.D. programs), which when combined with not requiring a GRE throws up a huge red flag for me in terms of overall quality

-Relatedly, the average attrition seems to be somewhere around 20%, which means a significant number of students are leaving (with large amounts of debt) before earning a degree; again, bad news

-They've placed <50% of students in APA-accredited internships every year since at least 2005, which is well below the national average of ~75%; APA accreditation at the doctoral and internship levels is required for VA employment

-Only 47% of their graduates from 2002 to 2010 are licensed doctoral psychologists; a license is required to practice clinically as a psychologist in essentially any capacity, and 47% is a very low number for a school that aims to primarily train practitioners rather than researchers/professors
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Here are some fun facts about Adler for you:

http://www.adler.edu/page/programs/...l-psychology/student-admissions--outcome-data

Here is the crux:
- They accepted over 100 people last year. A traditional program usually accepts less than 10.
- About 20% of students drop out of the program.
- Only 50% of students are not able to match to an accredited internship (without one she will not be able to work for the VA, most academic hospitals, and a host of other positions)
- Less than half of their graduates actually get licensed.

More fun facts:
- The Chicago VAs are unlikely to accept her for internship. Here are their internship sites
http://www.appic.org/directory/program_cache/200.html
http://www.appic.org/directory/program_cache/207.html
As you can see there are almost no PsyDs accepted into these internships.

- Neither VA has an Adler graduate working there, which is a giant indicator that the program is not thought of highly.

- Graduates from Adler are some of the WORST performing on the EPPP (the licensing exam for clinical psychology). Graduates of Adler only pass at about a 56% clip.
http://www.appic.org/directory/program_cache/207.html

Remember, her debt is your debt and its not something that you can erase with bankruptcy anymore.

Edit: looks like I doubled up on some info AA posted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
1) It is not 200k. It is 200k + living expenses. Either that or you fully fund her lifestyle.

2) At 200k, the monthly payment on this will be $2,301.61.

3) Annually, this repayment is $27, 619.00

4) A VA position, which is considered to be a cushy job by many starts at GS-13, which pays $71,674.00

5) Tax burden on this is $11,348

6) I dunno what healthcare costs at the VA, nor retirement.

7) Before any of those costs, the average pay packet would be: $2302.23 every 2 weeks.

8) That leaves less than 28k/year to live on until loans are paid off, assuming no deferment.

9) Before eating, having a place to live, entertainment, child expenses, this will be a debt ratio of approximately 1.0. So essentially no mortgage for 10 years AFTER graduation, assuming all debts are paid off on time and your fiance obtains the highest paying job out of any she expressed interest in.

10) a quick monster.com/indeed.com search shows that many jobs in Chicago pay absolute carp. Some are being listed at 42k. That would be a total of $300/month income after taxes and student loan repayments. without deducting state income tax.

11) Say she's 22 now. Flies through school and hits all milestones in the 5 years Adler indicates on their website. 27 years at graduation. +1 year for licensure. 28 years when she starts.

12) debt would be paid off at 38, with no deferrments.

13) there is an increase in risk for pregnancy after 35.

In sum, this would prevent her from RESPONSIBLY buying a house, having a child, retiring at 65, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'll leave this thread shortly b/c it's killing me...but everyone is arming Helpmyfiance with information that will damage Miss Fiancé's "sense of agency," in dynamic terms. I foresee a big agrument in the near future when Helpmyfiance reports these facts back to his True Love, and slowly peels back her dreams to reveal an unrealistic future goal. This is not advisable...and in fact, seems very malecentric to me.

I am assuming she is an adult...let her be the adult woman that she is and receive this information first-hand rather than filtered through her significant other.

If you haven't noticed, OP, Adler is not a favored training institution. It is ugly news and often fun for people to bash Adler's program (and ones similar) b/c the quality of the graduates of professional schools can be questionable (I hope Jon Snow doesn't get a wind of this thread...). Miss Fiancé will not want to attend Adler after she reads this thread, which is what I knew when I posted my first response...but now, you as her fiance know how sucky the program is before her, which may create a power differential that is uneven and unfair - don't let the info get in the way of your delivery, and be supportive when you tell her this program sucks and she needs to think of an alternative goal. Good luck conveying the info, Buddy :luck:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
How is showing the possible outcomes of one's own behavior, reducing one's agency?

She is free to do whatever she wants, regardless of the consequences.
 
PSYDR said:
How is showing the possible outcomes of one's own behavior, reducing one's agency?

She is free to do whatever she wants, regardless of the consequences.
Click to expand...

Because of WHO is obtaining the information. She is not seeking the information herself or being provided the information as a form of psychoeducation. Yes, she is free do whatever she wants, but SHE is not on SDN, her finance is...thereby reducing herself of agency...she is not the agent of change or information-seeking....another (albeit caring) individual is. This is just as bad as a parent getting on here to ask questions for an adult child who wants to be a psychologist (and when those parents do, I encourage them to get their adult children to log on). It's a free country, it's a free (resourceful) website. But, come here yourself...is all I say.
 
Last edited:
Agreed with most of te above and I do not see one goal listed that cannot be accomplished with an msw or a doctorate in social work (if you insist on a doctorate). Good luck. I really do not see this as something that will end well though.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
helpmyfiance said:
And now that we are getting married, i would rather not have $200,000 in debt.
Click to expand...

I think this is pretty important. Cheetah, you mention her "sense of agency" but the reality this becomes the OP's debt too. I think OP certainly has input in what kind of debt OP thinks is reasonable to take on in the relationship, especially as a professional school would impact them financially for a decade or more.

helpmyfiance said:
The main reason to go here is because you don't need GRE to get in.
Click to expand...

That is not a reason.
 
Last edited:
MCParent said:
I think this is pretty important. Cheetah, you mention her "sense of agency" but the reality this becomes the OP's debt too. I think OP certainly has input in what kind of debt OP thinks is reasonable to take on in the relationship, especially as a professional school would impact them financially for a decade or more.
Click to expand...

No, really...I'm done w/ this thread after one last comment:

Yes, of course, I thought of that in my replies...but if the fiance is entering into martial commitment and one that has financial limits...she will soon realize that Adler is not her best choice...and agentic change occurs by making the decision oneself. The OP 200% needs to have say in what debt he takes on in a relationship. I had a friend annul her marriage b/c of financial deception entering into the marriage (leaving her w/ the most significant debts from her husband that was not worth the commitment b/c the major underlying factor was deception and that's no way to start a union). My voice of reason was for the OP to allow his finace to discover the true nature of the debt and unsubstantiated training that goes along with before he reports back to her that her dream is unrealistic and sucks.

I was offered a spot in a high-debt accumulating PsyD program JUST before I was offered my spot in a funded *awesome* PhD program. (Why I applied is beyond me but it was not as clueless as that debt video of the clueless wonder on another thread). If it wasn't for paying attention to Jon Snow's position on professional schools and sharing his honest opinion w/ my spouse (and making a spreadsheet of the projected 5-yrs), I would've incurred massive debt b/c of my intrinsic goal. I'm not against PsyDs...some of my best friends and talented professors are PsyDs. And, sure, I'm in a unique situation where my spouse would've helped me pay-off the debt, but we discussed together that it wasn't right for us, as a family. Shortly after, I learned of my acceptance to my current program..but I turned down a 'sure thing' first. My husband actually asked me to PM Jon Snow and thank him 5-yrs ago which is exactly what I did. Snow's opinion single-handedly made me see the light and saved me over $200K! But my spouse didn't do that footwork for me....he didn't find SDN...I did - that is agentic sense I speak of.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Sense of agency, heh....psychologists just love making fancy terms for simple ****, don't they?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
CheetahGirl said:
No, really...I'm done w/ this thread after one last comment:

Yes, of course, I thought of that in my replies...but if the fiance is entering into martial commitment and one that has financial limits...she will soon realize that Adler is not her best choice...and agentic change occurs by making the decision oneself. The OP 200% needs to have say in what debt he takes on in a relationship. I had a friend annul her marriage b/c of financial deception entering into the marriage (leaving her w/ the most significant debts from her husband that was not worth the commitment b/c the major underlying factor was deception and that's no way to start a union). My voice of reason was for the OP to allow his finace to discover the true nature of the debt and unsubstantiated training that goes along with before he reports back to her that her dream is unrealistic and sucks.

I was offered a spot in a high-debt accumulating PsyD program JUST before I was offered my spot in a funded *awesome* PhD program. (Why I applied is beyond me but it was not as clueless as that debt video of the clueless wonder on another thread). If it wasn't for paying attention to Jon Snow's position on professional schools and sharing his honest opinion w/ my spouse (and making a spreadsheet of the projected 5-yrs), I would've incurred massive debt b/c of my intrinsic goal. I'm not against PsyDs...some of my best friends and talented professors are PsyDs. And, sure, I'm in a unique situation where my spouse would've helped me pay-off the debt, but we discussed together that it wasn't right for us, as a family. Shortly after, I learned of my acceptance to my current program..but I turned down a 'sure thing' first. My husband actually asked me to PM Jon Snow and thank him 5-yrs ago which is exactly what I did. Snow's opinion single-handedly made me see the light and saved me over $200K! But my spouse didn't do that footwork for me....he didn't find SDN...I did - that is agentic sense I speak of.
Click to expand...

If the OP were a professor discussing this with his student, I'd be more inclined to agree to leave it open. But, the OP is an active participant in the relationship, and certainly deserves input into the process that should be just as valued as the fiance's "sense of agency." Your argument is predicated on the idea that the fiance will recognize the error. But not everyone does (look at enrollment rates among the >150k schools). If I were engaged and my fiance was completely adamant about taking on 200k in debt, I don't think I could continue that relationship.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
If she's geographically-limited (i.e., moving around the country for grad school, internship, and possibly post-doc isn't an option), then erg's suggestion of pursuing a masters could be her best bet. Additionally, as it sounds like she would want to focus primarily on clinical work rather than including other things such as research, supervision, administration, program evaluation and development, again, a masters could be a better alternative...if nothing else, it might help her to gain more exposure to the field, and to determine if pursuing a doctorate is really what she needs and wants to do.

That being said, if she's set on a doctorate, then for Adler's Psy.D. program...

-The median years to completion is 5, while the mean is 6 (and with not-insignificant numbers finishing in 7); factoring in that tuition is actually nearly $43k + $800 in fees and $2500 in "additional estimated fees or costs to students," the total cost will probably be closer to $230-280k

-Class sizes are huge (>100 for the past 2 years and >50 since at least 2005, compared with something like 6-12 for many traditional Ph.D. programs), which when combined with not requiring a GRE throws up a huge red flag for me in terms of overall quality

-Relatedly, the average attrition seems to be somewhere around 20%, which means a significant number of students are leaving (with large amounts of debt) before earning a degree; again, bad news

-They've placed <50% of students in APA-accredited internships every year since at least 2005, which is well below the national average of ~75%; APA accreditation at the doctoral and internship levels is required for VA employment

-Only 47% of their graduates from 2002 to 2010 are licensed doctoral psychologists; a license is required to practice clinically as a psychologist in essentially any capacity, and 47% is a very low number for a school that aims to primarily train practitioners rather than researchers/professors
Click to expand...

DynamicDidactic said:
Here are some fun facts about Adler for you:

http://www.adler.edu/page/programs/...l-psychology/student-admissions--outcome-data

Here is the crux:
- They accepted over 100 people last year. A traditional program usually accepts less than 10.
- About 20% of students drop out of the program.
- Only 50% of students are not able to match to an accredited internship (without one she will not be able to work for the VA, most academic hospitals, and a host of other positions)
- Less than half of their graduates actually get licensed.

More fun facts:
- The Chicago VAs are unlikely to accept her for internship. Here are their internship sites
http://www.appic.org/directory/program_cache/200.html
http://www.appic.org/directory/program_cache/207.html
As you can see there are almost no PsyDs accepted into these internships.

- Neither VA has an Adler graduate working there, which is a giant indicator that the program is not thought of highly.

- Graduates from Adler are some of the WORST performing on the EPPP (the licensing exam for clinical psychology). Graduates of Adler only pass at about a 56% clip.
http://www.appic.org/directory/program_cache/207.html

Remember, her debt is your debt and its not something that you can erase with bankruptcy anymore.

Edit: looks like I doubled up on some info AA posted.
Click to expand...

Dang.:eek:
 
I'm a PsyD student in the Chicagoland area, and have worked with a number of students who attend Adler. I think all of them would give the same advice that has already been given, opt for a master's degree. It's less expensive, and would still provide her the opportunity to work with some of her populations of interest.
 
I was a PsyD student at Adler (3 years) and recently transferred out. I made some great relationships, but the quality of the program really isn't that great, and with the rate of which they accept students, I feared having a diploma from Adler might be more a hindrance than an asset in later years on the job market. I'd advise her to look into a better Chicagoland program like Roosevelt or Wheaton, and to take the GRE.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Jon Snow said:
I personally wouldn't marry her. But, this is not true. If they get divorced, student loan debt goes with the student as long as he doesn't co-mingle it (e.g., consolidate it with other debt). In the Chicago area, I would not consider Roosevelt or Wheaton, I'd consider, Northwestern, Depaul, UIC, Loyola, Notre Dame, Marquette, UW Madison, U Iowa, UI Champagna. No reason to consider any of the professional schools. Frankly, given the current landscape politically for psychology, I'd consider an ARNP or physician avenue a much better choice for the clinically minded person. I would not suggest social work or MFT. . . These are crappy jobs with crappy pay. You have to pay for a social work degree, albeit it is cheaper than a psyd. If you are going to pay for a degree, pay for one that can pay for itself (ARNP/Physician). At this point, it would be exceptionally foolish to take on a psyd program.
Click to expand...

Jon Snow- Are you talking about doctoral programs? The posts have varied between the relative value of an expensive Psy. D and Ph.D programs. The Ph.D. programs are funded but hyper-competitive. Also only DePaul, UIC, Northwestern, Wheaton, and Roosevelt are actually in or near to Chicago (with Milwaukee/Marquette as a possible if you live in the northern suburbs).

As far as master's degrees- I think you are either self-funding or if you are fortunate you are working somewhere that will pick up part of the tab. Why do you advise against Wheaton and Roosevelt? Is it a matter of the quality of the education or the expense?

Thanks:)
 
They seem good to me. Their APA match rate's over 80%.
 
UWM also has a counseling psych PhD that has near perfect match rate, and at least in my area of interest, serious researcher(s)
 
Their APA match rates have stayed about the same. Not sure about the qualitative experience of students or outcomes in the program.
 
Sign a pre-nup, or postpone the marriage until she completes her degree
 
How long has your fiancee been talking about her plan to go to Adler? It might be that she just hasn't done the research yet and seen what a poor financial and career decision this would be. Maybe you could talk to her about your concerns if you haven't already. I wouldn't advise sending her this thread; she'll likely feel defensive about you doing all this reconnaissance behind her back, and you won't accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. You seem supportive of her career goals. Maybe explain to her that you really want to see her do well and get into an amazing program, but that you have financial concerns.
 
Also, you all got trolled (again). :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

X
Post-Doc For TelePsych / Technology Focus? Need Help For My Fiance
Replies
16
Views
1K
Ollie123
O
Top