Heroin addict to medical student

[Planes2Doc]

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2011/06/among_oregon_health_science_un.html

I stumbled upon this article a while back and thought it was interesting. There are definitely some differing opinions on the topic. I'm curious how people on SDN perceive someone who is a recovering addict as a medical student. Do you view them as a hero, or someone who made poor choices in life?

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[Goro]

Yes to both.



I stumbled upon this article a while back and thought it was interesting. There are definitely some differing opinions on the topic. I'm curious how people on SDN perceive someone who is a recovering addict as a medical student. Do you view them as a hero, or someone who made poor choices in life?[/QUOTE]

 

[487806]

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2011/06/among_oregon_health_science_un.html

I stumbled upon this article a while back and thought it was interesting. There are definitely some differing opinions on the topic. I'm curious how people on SDN perceive someone who is a recovering addict as a medical student. Do you view them as a hero, or someone who made poor choices in life?

Not surprised. Today, anyone can become a medical student.

 

[GoPelicans]

I bet her diversity essay was interesting.

 

[sinombre]

Not surprised. Today, anyone can become a medical student.

...except roughly 60% of people that apply

 

[yehhhboiii]

I would probably see them as the latter. I don't think there's anything heroic about making your way out of a hole you dug yourself

 

[The Bunk]

I would probably see them as the latter. I don't think there's anything heroic about making your way out of a hole you dug yourself

I think it's heroic to overcome your own character flaws. Most people never do.

 

[Arkaine]

I think it's great she has overcome her addictions and has gone on to be successful in life. But I have trouble considering her to be a "hero" since her substance abuse issues were due to her poor decisions, and admittedly while these poor decisions may have been a result of her living conditions, there are countless stories of more deserving heroes who have gone on to be successful in life after more damaging dilemmas outside of their control i.e. physical/sexual abuse, horrendous poverty.

Looking ahead, I would consider her to be more of a hero if she were to take her experiences as an addicted drug user to reach out to drug addled patients in her career, or perhaps work with prospective students who have experimented at drugs at a young age. I'm not too knowledgeable about former drug addicts who have undergone long-term therapy, but I would always be wary of a resident or attending consistently distracted by his or her ability to easily acquire narcotics. While the risk of actual relapse may be low, the mental burden of having to deal with these distractions may result in medical errors that over a course of a career may seriously affect the lives of many. Considering her strong grades on her family medicine rotation, it's hard to say how her success to this point will translate to her future career, where she'll have a lot more independence and responsibility, but if she inspires other drug addicts to be ambitious and succeed in life, then she is certainly a hero to them.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

Not surprised. Today, anyone can become a medical student.

If she had been convicted of possession or something at some point, chances are we wouldn't be reading this success story.

 

[NontradCA]

Plane2Doc, haven't you been around long enough to know what kind of answers this would get? The community on this sub forum would be likely to tell someone who got into a fight in HS they'd make a terrible doctor.

I agree though, that person is a hero. It's easy to point out and destroy other people's demons (or attempt to). It's much harder to face your own. I can't imagine a more difficult personal issue to overcome in life.

 

[487806]

...except roughly 60% of people that apply

Yet the 40% who do make it still come from all walks of life.

If she had been convicted of possession or something at some point, chances are we wouldn't be reading this success story.

I hope that's the case. Some of the med schools can act weirdly generous.

 

[pre med 2014]

Quitting the heroin isn't all that impressive. What's impressive is she passed all the paperwork and applications to becoming a resident with a history of heroin use.

 

[Kahreek]

is she becoming anesthesist.

 

[Kahreek]

I hope at least she has the iv's dialed in.

 

[whatever5]

Take away message - If you don't get in to a school, blame your mom for not giving you black tar heroin back in 8th grade.

 

[Omppu27]

Anybody can go into FM....

On a side note, she seems pretty cute...

 

[yehhhboiii]

the most surprising thing is that she only had 25k in debt after her first year

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Is it really heroic to overcome a drug addiction? It just sounds like she just overcame a hole she dug herself.

We dont reward alcoholics that stop drinking, or sex addicts who dial it down a notch.

 

[bunionberry]

Heroic isn't really the correct term for her situation. Overcoming drug addiction is an impressive accomplishment, regardless of how you got into it. If that makes her a better person then good for her. If a medical school accepted her then she must have other positive attributes that stretch beyond her ability to overcome drug addiction.

 

[487806]

Is it really heroic to overcome a drug addiction? It just sounds like she just overcame a hole she dug herself.

We dont reward alcoholics that stop drinking, or sex addicts who dial it down a notch.

Indeed. heroic is best reserved for altruistic deeds. Heroin addiction was a preventable, intentional decision. It's good she broke off her addiction, but that's by no means heroic.

 

[alpinism]

Anybody can go into FM....

On a side note, she seems pretty cute...

Not at UCSF.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't consider someone that did drugs a hero or something like that. Does that make people that made the right choices and didn't do drugs all their lives into heroes? Clearly not. Good for her for turning her life around, but poor choices are just that, poor choices. "Not being a **** up" is the minimal standard for a productive society. You shouldn't be rewarded or be made out to be special because you found a way to meet the minimum standard.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I don't consider someone that did drugs a hero or something like that. Does that make people that made the right choices and didn't do drugs all their lives into heroes? Clearly not. Good for her for turning her life around, but poor choices are just that, poor choices. "Not being a **** up" is the minimal standard for a productive society. You shouldn't be rewarded or be made out to be special because you found a way to meet the minimum standard.

I agree. The minimal standards are somehow being seen as goals nowadays.

I missed the days when only the winning team got the trophy, not everyone just for participating. Just so we dont hurt their feelings.

 

[487806]

I agree. The minimal standards are somehow being seen as goals nowadays.

I missed the days when only the winning team got the trophy, not everyone just for participating. Just so we dont hurt their feelings.

Welcome to a politically correct world (or politically correct America to be precise). Even a slight jab = lawsuit for thousands of dollars and possible riots!

In all seriousness, I'm surprised that OHSU had no problem with this student, who I assumed used it to sharpen her diversity or obstacle secondaries.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Welcome to a politically correct world (or politically correct America to be precise). Even a slight jab = lawsuit for thousands of dollars and possible riots!

In all seriousness, I'm surprised that OHSU had no problem with this student, who I assumed used it to sharpen her diversity or obstacle secondaries.

I totally agree with this. Weaving around in political correctness throughout the medical school admissions process is quite an adventure.

 

[Arkangeloid]

OHSU is a school that prides itself on bringing in older and nontraditional students, so I'm not really surprised at this.

I'm very impressed at her success, though. Heroin addiction is about as hard as it gets to overcome.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

OHSU is a school that prides itself on bringing in older and nontraditional students, so I'm not really surprised at this.

I'm very impressed at her success, though. Heroin addiction is about as hard as it gets to overcome.

I think meth addiction might be harder to overcome.

 

[Cambino]

I think meth addiction might be harder to overcome.

Nah, Heroin

 

[Gauss44]

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2011/06/among_oregon_health_science_un.html

I stumbled upon this article a while back and thought it was interesting. There are definitely some differing opinions on the topic. I'm curious how people on SDN perceive someone who is a recovering addict as a medical student. Do you view them as a hero, or someone who made poor choices in life?

Neither, just another person.

He may be a non-judgmental doctor with life experience... A clean (not using) heroin addict may be a perfect doctor for a drug rehab center, and may have rare insight into the lives of some of the less fortunate (due to shared NA meetings). He may not take much for granted (having suffered addiction). And may have a new value for life and renewed hope. These last qualities, a plus in almost any medical field. I would take that over someone who's a doctor for the social status any day.

Didn't read your article, just some things that came to mind.

 

[pre med 2014]

Neither, just another person.

He may be a non-judgmental doctor with life experience... A clean (not using) heroin addict may be a perfect doctor for a drug rehab center, and may have rare insight into the lives of some of the less fortunate (due to shared NA meetings). He may not take much for granted (having suffered addiction). And may have a new value for life and renewed hope. These last qualities, a plus in almost any medical field. I would take that over someone who's a doctor for the social status any day.

Didn't read your article, just some things that came to mind.

If I was on heroin and ended up in a treatment center I'd rather have the doctor in it for the social status to inform me that NA had been ruled a religious organization by the Supreme Court.

The doctor must be providing informed consent, I'm not saying this person couldn't provide consent, I'm just saying there might be a conflict of interest. Again, its completely possible she keeps her personal beliefs to herself and I'm not saying that she would keep that information concealed from her patients.

You should watch Penn and Tellers episode of Bull**** about AA, its free on YouTube. It's quite interesting, although you probably won't like it if you're into God.

 

[Geebeejay]

Neither, just another person.

He may be a non-judgmental doctor with life experience... A clean (not using) heroin addict may be a perfect doctor for a drug rehab center, and may have rare insight into the lives of some of the less fortunate (due to shared NA meetings). He may not take much for granted (having suffered addiction). And may have a new value for life and renewed hope. These last qualities, a plus in almost any medical field. I would take that over someone who's a doctor for the social status any day.

Didn't read your article, just some things that came to mind.

Drug addicts are generally fickle, unreliable and impulsive among other things. The fact that he because addicted to heroin in the first place is evidence of his propensity for making bad decisions. Just because he cleaned up (according to him) eventually and was smart enough to get into medical school afterward doesn't make these unideal personal characteristics magically disappear.

I'm sure a drug addict could reform himself and become and excellent doctor. I'm sure it's possible. I'm not saying that doesn't happen or isn't possible, but to blindly prefer a ex-junky doctor over an ordinary doctor without considering the various negative traits that often go hand-in-hand with drug addiciton.

 

[Gauss44]

If I was on heroin and ended up in a treatment center I'd rather have the doctor in it for the social status to inform me that NA had been ruled a religious organization by the Supreme Court.

The doctor must be providing informed consent, I'm not saying this person couldn't provide consent, I'm just saying there might be a conflict of interest. Again, its completely possible she keeps her personal beliefs to herself and I'm not saying that she would keep that information concealed from her patients.

You should watch Penn and Tellers episode of Bull**** about AA, its free on YouTube. It's quite interesting, although you probably won't like it if you're into God.

NA stands for Narcotics Anonymous: http://www.na.org/

 

[pre med 2014]

Drug addicts are generally fickle, unreliable and impulsive among other things. The fact that he because addicted to heroin in the first place is evidence of his propensity for making bad decisions. Just because he cleaned up (according to him) eventually and was smart enough to get into medical school afterward doesn't make these unideal personal characteristics magically disappear.

I'm sure a drug addict could reform himself and become and excellent doctor. I'm sure it's possible. I'm not saying that doesn't happen or isn't possible, but to blindly prefer a ex-junky doctor over an ordinary doctor without considering the various negative traits that often go hand-in-hand with drug addiciton.

You have to be pretty reliable to get through medical school and residency. There are disciplinary actions PDs take for residents who are underperforming. Your general swooping characterization of drug addicts as unreliable and fickle is true but moot, I agree a most addicts are unreliable, just not the ones that quit and make it through med school and the boards. The system in place will take care of the inadequate on its own.

 

[pre med 2014]

Double post

 

[pre med 2014]

NA stands for Narcotics Anonymous: http://www.na.org/

That's correct, the Penn and Teller episode is about AA specifically but NA is the same 12 step program slightly modified for drug addiction. It is recognized as a religious entity by default.

 

[Bacchus]

Hero? No.

Impressive? Yes. Addiction is an awful affliction.

Most people deserve second tries. She actually used hers and is making something of herself.

 

[Gauss44]

Drug addicts are generally fickle, unreliable and impulsive among other things. The fact that he because addicted to heroin in the first place is evidence of his propensity for making bad decisions. Just because he cleaned up (according to him) eventually and was smart enough to get into medical school afterward doesn't make these unideal personal characteristics magically disappear.

I'm sure a drug addict could reform himself and become and excellent doctor. I'm sure it's possible. I'm not saying that doesn't happen or isn't possible, but to blindly prefer a ex-junky doctor over an ordinary doctor without considering the various negative traits that often go hand-in-hand with drug addiciton.

People who are no longer using drugs, and have been "clean" for years, are NOT usually, "fickle, unreliable, and impulsive."

The ex-cocaine users I know have not used cocaine for decades, and are very competent attorneys, accountants, etc. with kids, families, and normal lives. (I cannot speak for heroin, but suspect it's a similar deal.) If one of these people were I doctor, I wouldn't hesitate to see him or her. The odds of their using during my appointment would be slim to none, given the amount of time being "clean."

My experience has been that when someone USES narcotics, it usually doesn't go undetected. So there's not much of a guessing game involved. In the event that I suspected drug use, I would be upfront about it.

Drug recovery does seem to have it's positive influences: In my experience, ex-users are often unassuming people who are grateful for life and tolerant of the various different classes of society. These are not only great qualities for doctors, but (the unassuming and class part) are precisely what's lacking (to a large extent) - and are much needed - in the medical profession today.

 

[AGSIII]

I think you make a great point. In addition to that, wouldn't you rather have a doctor who is active in his/ her recovery than a doctor who is secretly using. I assume this doctor has to comply with state physician help program. If he isn't using, why would his history be a negative thing. I think he can better identify patients in need of addiction services.

 

[jw3600]

Is it really heroic to overcome a drug addiction? It just sounds like she just overcame a hole she dug herself.

We dont reward alcoholics that stop drinking, or sex addicts who dial it down a notch.

Lol. Yeah, that's an appropriate comparison.

 

[Geebeejay]

People who are no longer using drugs, and have been "clean" for years, are NOT usually, "fickle, unreliable, and impulsive."

The ex-cocaine users I know have not used cocaine for decades, and are very competent attorneys, accountants, etc. with kids, families, and normal lives. (I cannot speak for heroin, but suspect it's a similar deal.) If one of these people were I doctor, I wouldn't hesitate to see him or her. The odds of their using during my appointment would be slim to none, given the amount of time being "clean."

My experience has been that when someone USES narcotics, it usually doesn't go undetected. So there's not much of a guessing game involved. In the event that I suspected drug use, I would be upfront about it.

Drug recovery does seem to have it's positive influences: In my experience, ex-users are often unassuming people who are grateful for life and tolerant of the various different classes of society. These are not only great qualities for doctors, but (the unassuming and class part) are precisely what's lacking (to a large extent) - and are much needed - in the medical profession today.

You have to be pretty reliable to get through medical school and residency. There are disciplinary actions PDs take for residents who are underperforming. Your general swooping characterization of drug addicts as unreliable and fickle is true but moot, I agree a most addicts are unreliable, just not the ones that quit and make it through med school and the boards. The system in place will take care of the inadequate on its own.

I understand, and I'm not saying that all ex-drug addicts can't become doctors. But to say that a ex-junkies would make good doctors because of [insert list of personality traits assosiated with cleaned-up ex-drug addicts] is a little foolish because it conveniently ignores another large list of personality traits that made these people drug addicts in the first place [fickle, impulsive, unreliable, self-interested, insert others] - personality traits that would certainly not make a good physician.

And just because someone got clean and finished medical school does NOT necessarily make that person reliable or suitable at all for taking care of another person's life. And don't even bother mentioning interviews as a way to detect this lack of suitability....another swooping generalization of drug addicts is that they are extremely manipulative and self-interested.

Worth noting also that drug addict =/= drug user. The two are completely, and I mean completely, different animals. Among other things, addicts are extremely prone to relapse even after thorough rehab.

 

[pre med 2014]

Worth noting also that drug addict =/= drug user. The two are completely, and I mean completely, different animals. Among other things, addicts are extremely prone to relapse even after thorough rehab.

Now this is a sweeping generalization I cannot support. Tim Allen used to do drugs and he's not any of those things you listed [selfish, unreliable]. Lots of good people make mistakes with drugs at an early age and go on to live normal productive lives as adults. Human brings are all different, you can't make generalizations about a group of people so easily.

 

[Gauss44]

Just got a public announcement about this: http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/hea...ug-overdoses/x8mwxX095dSX6lrsWtSwXM/blog.html

I guess heroin's back, or so suspected.

Also, if you want to see for yourself what recovering addicts are like, you can always sit in on an Narcotics Anonymous meeting. Non-addicts often attend NA meetings. All you have to do is go here: http://www.na.org/?ID=home-content-fm Find a meeting that says it's open to the public, and go! When they go around the room introducing themselves, "Hi, I'm Joe and I'm an addict." What you say is, "Hi, I'm (your name here) and I'm here to listen."

Again, non-addicts attend these meetings all the time. Attending a 12 step meeting was required for Human Services majors at my undergraduate university. I think this should be required for medical school as well, at least one meeting once.

 

[Bacchus]

Just got a public announcement about this: http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/hea...ug-overdoses/x8mwxX095dSX6lrsWtSwXM/blog.html

I guess heroin's back, or so suspected.

Also, if you want to see for yourself what recovering addicts are like, you can always sit in on an Narcotics Anonymous meeting. Non-addicts often attend NA meetings. All you have to do is go here: http://www.na.org/?ID=home-content-fm Find a meeting that says it's open to the public, and go! When they go around the room introducing themselves, "Hi, I'm Joe and I'm an addict." What you say is, "Hi, I'm (your name here) and I'm here to listen."

Again, non-addicts attend these meetings all the time. Attending a 12 step meeting was required for Human Services majors at my undergraduate university. I think this should be required for medical school as well, at least one meeting once.

I had an up and down life, or so I thought, until I went to an addiction meeting on my psychiatric rotation. What an eye-opening experience. I never faced the battles of addiction and hope I never will.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Lol. Yeah, that's an appropriate comparison.

its a recognized addiction. so yes its comparable.

 

[pre med 2014]

its a recognized addiction. so yes its comparable.

Except you need to have sex to reproduce.

 

[thesauce]

If she had been convicted of possession or something at some point, chances are we wouldn't be reading this success story.

And that's part of what makes this perplexing. She was open about her battle with drugs and breaking the law (check fraud, etc). So what's the real difference between her and the person that got caught? Why does OHSU see this as different?

 

[thesauce]

I would probably see them as the latter. I don't think there's anything heroic about making your way out of a hole you dug yourself

I think it's heroic to overcome your own character flaws. Most people never do.

I don't think there's clear evidence that she has overcome them. The article is all about her struggling with addiction before and even during medical school. Are we supposed to believe that something magically happened at graduation that caused these problems to dissolve? Good for her for graduating, but I'm not convinced anything had changed.

 

[thesauce]

I agree though, that person is a hero. It's easy to point out and destroy other people's demons (or attempt to). It's much harder to face your own. I can't imagine a more difficult personal issue to overcome in life.

I sure can.

We have wildly different definitions of what constitutes a "hero." At its most basic level, a hero does something selfless for someone else. What has she done that fits into that category?

 

[NontradCA]

I sure can.

We have wildly different definitions of what constitutes a "hero." At its most basic level, a hero does something selfless for someone else. What has she done that fits into that category?

Being a role model for other junkies! And kicking/going to med school isn't part of her job description. I'm not surprised we have different views.

I mean, what's a hero to you? Getting paid to go overseas and kill other human beings? Harassing the general public in the name of order? It's a very subjective thing that hero business.

 

[thesauce]

I sure can.

We have wildly different definitions of what constitutes a "hero." At its most basic level, a hero does something selfless for someone else. What has she done that fits into that category?

Being a role model for other junkies! And kicking/going to med school isn't part of her job description. I'm not surprised we have different views.

So role model and hero are synonymous to you? Which part of that was selfless? She worked hard to improve her own life for personal gain.

I mean, what's a hero to you? Getting paid to go overseas and kill other human beings? Harassing the general public in the name of order? It's a very subjective thing that hero business.

Again, the self sacrifice part must be there. The classic example is the guy who threw himself on the grenade to save his fellow soldier. Or the firefighter who runs into a burning building to save someone. There are numerous other examples. Not every person in uniform is a hero.