Hey, Get A Load Of This Evil [osteopathic] Doctor

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The morally bankrupt will take advantage of the ignorant time and again. Unfortunately for us the morally bankrupt ***** is a DO...which is pretty ideal for our profession to be associated with an anti-vaccine idiot during the biggest measles outbreak in decades. I enjoy how this article actually talks about how he is NOT a pediatrician and it is ridiculous for him to make any recommendations in that realm as a "integrative cardiologist". What a douche.

Vaccinate your kids Damn it!
 
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Embarrassing. Luckily his degree hasn't been tied to this.

I'm getting really burnt out on this vaccination debate. I believe in vaccinations very passionately. It used to really get under my skin listening to people that claim to be scientists and medical professionals put empirical data to the side and pump out their own personal and trendy propaganda. Now when I see it I just think "Here's another imbecile confusing the general public" and move on with my day. At least the truth is finally included in the discussion, just as the CNN host added.
 
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Completely agree with the article. It's like all of these people that grew up with two generations of never having to see these diseases and that only read about them on the internet have decided, oh what the hell, that doesn't sound so bad! And despite their being vaccinated themselves, they're willing to bet the health and lives of their children against not only the science but the evidence we currently have of how horrible many of these diseases can be in developing countries. If there's ever even a single case of polio in the United States, I sure as hell hope that there is a public outcry and the leaders of the anti-vaxx movement get dragged to court and imprisoned for damn near forever.
 
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SouthernSurgeon said:
Agreed. Idiots are idiots. Has nothing to do with the degree.

Most likely unfortunately is that he knows he's selling bull**** but has no trouble doing so if it garners him fame and fortune.
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People like this really annoy me. Not only is he blatantly aware of the truth (he'd have to be), he's abusing his position of authority for his own benefit, and in doing so mainly endangering children (and the sick and elderly). It's one thing for a medical tech to say something like "I work in the hospital, and vaccines are bad", they might not know better. It's a completely other thing for a physician to do it.

Mad Jack said:
Completely agree with the article. It's like all of these people that grew up with two generations of never having to see these diseases and that only read about them on the internet have decided, oh what the hell, that doesn't sound so bad! And despite their being vaccinated themselves, they're willing to bet the health and lives of their children against not only the science but the evidence we currently have of how horrible many of these diseases can be in developing countries. If there's ever even a single case of polio in the United States, I sure as hell hope that there is a public outcry and the leaders of the anti-vaxx movement get dragged to court and imprisoned for damn near forever.
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Being the child of immigrants, this was never an issue. My parents had relatives and friends that were killed or debilitated by preventable diseases.

I try to keep an open mind, doubt things, look at evidence as objectively as I as a person can, but the anti-vax movement just doesn't make sense. The only way to agree with the argument would be to throw out mountains of actual evidence (a lot of which is done by people who actually are considering that vaccines may have a negative effect) in exchange for anecdotes or conspiracy theories.

At this point, I think the only way we can tip the scales is to in the most understanding and welcoming way explain the evidence, while simultaneously making the evidence personal to their situations. These people are generally suspicious and scared. We need to start playing to their fear, and talk about what these diseases actually do, and how a decision of withholding vaccines is in fact actively putting their child at risk.
 
that was terribly written and could have been condensed to a single paragraph. ramblings of a science major with an intro to immunology class under his belt.
 
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JRO38 said:
1) That article was painful to read (syntax, diction, fluency).
2) Mods, please remove this inflammatory post.
3) Yes, there are *****s with a DO degree. There are idiots with an MD degree. The title of this post and subsequent comments are inflammatory, insinuating all DOs are responsible for his actions and associated with his views.

If my memory serves me, I believe Dr. Andrew Wakefield was an MD but nobody makes posts saying "Hey! Get a load of this evil [allopathic] doctor." Grow up.
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I didn't think they were linking DO=anti vaccine. Wakefield started this whole mess and he is an MD. Really going to jump on a mod to remove an "inflammatory" post? It's deadspin that's what they do, knee jerk removing anything that shows a DO in a bad light because it's "inflammatory" doesn't help anyone. As a DO knowing patients are going to see this ***** on tv and ask questions about his recommendations is a good thing. Plus I'm tired of every Damn post on the DO forum being from a premed asking about the usmle boring!
 
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JRO38 said:
I have no problem with just linking the article with the original title. I have no problem with the fact he is a DO (since there are idiots in every career field). I have a problem with adding the qualifier [osteopathic] in the title since OP researched this *****, found out he is a DO (this was not stated in the original article as far as I saw), and then thought that was pertinent/essential information. In my opinion not only is it irrelevant, it is inflammatory. The same way it would be inflammatory to start a thread in the allopathic forum calling attention to the evil [allopathic] doctor Andrew Wakefield. You know what the fate of that thread would be. You know the OP would be called a troll within the first few posts. Call it a knee-jerk reaction if you want. If the mods keep this thread, fine - if they close it down, fine.
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I guess I took it as hyperbole, OP trying to be amusing and not trolling but this is the internet so who knows.
 
Meh. He's a jerk.
 
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JRO38 said:
I have no problem with just linking the article with the original title. I have no problem with the fact he is a DO (since there are idiots in every career field). I have a problem with adding the qualifier [osteopathic] in the title since OP researched this *****, found out he is a DO (this was not stated in the original article as far as I saw), and then thought that was pertinent/essential information. In my opinion not only is it irrelevant, it is inflammatory. The same way it would be inflammatory to start a thread in the allopathic forum calling attention to the evil [allopathic] doctor Andrew Wakefield. You know what the fate of that thread would be. You know the OP would be called a troll within the first few posts. Call it a knee-jerk reaction if you want. If the mods keep this thread, fine - if they close it down, fine.
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Andrew Wakefield has been eviscerated by the medical and scientific community of the world. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise. I disagree that calling out any duplicitous physician, M.D. or D.O., constitutes "trolling".

Our representative organization, the AOA, should be denouncing quacks like him and Joe Mercola. Osteopathic physicians have historically been viewed as being less scientifically-minded in comparison to MDs and this does not help break that perception. Instead, in the midst of an historic resurgence in measles and other vaccine-preventable diseases, the AOA remains silent.
 
Hey, I love the AOA as much as anyone, but give them some credit:

http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopat...ns-library/general-health/Pages/vaccines.aspx

8daiWmk.jpg
 
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DrWBD said:
It's a generic statement that effectively says "Vaccines are good". That's not the same as directly acknowledging and addressing the problem of DOs who are, in my opinion, committing professional misconduct by spreading false information about vaccination.
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To be fair, there are plenty of MDs that spread dubious info, last I checked the AMA wasn't doing anything to them. Heck, even the state of NY medical board is ignoring a petition against Dr. Oz led by a med student. Last I checked, it was only the FTC that paid him any attention.
 
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hallowmann said:
To be fair, there are plenty of MDs that spread dubious info, last I checked the AMA wasn't doing anything to them. Heck, even the state of NY medical board is ignoring a petition against Dr. Oz led by a med student. Last I checked, it was only the FTC that paid him any attention.
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The AMA is not the equivalent of the AOA, at least not anymore. Today the AMA primarily exists as a political organization without direct influence on physician licensing, credentialing, etc., unlike the AOA.

You bring up a fair point about the AMA and other professional organizations not speaking out against MDs who do the same thing but I'd argue that DOs don't need to follow the lead of the AMA or MDs in general. The AOA didn't wait for MDs when deciding to establish for-profit schools.

Finally, the NY State Medical Board hasn't formally censured Dr. Oz mostly because the laws in place don't allow them to do so (laws that should be changed in my opinion).

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/12/5891451/meet-the-medical-student-who-wants-to-bring-down-dr-oz-quackery
 
DrWBD said:
The AMA is not the equivalent of the AOA, at least not anymore. Today the AMA primarily exists as a political organization without direct influence on physician licensing, credentialing, etc., unlike the AOA.

You bring up a fair point about the AMA and other professional organizations not speaking out against MDs who do the same thing but I'd argue that DOs don't need to follow the lead of the AMA or MDs in general. The AOA didn't wait for MDs when deciding to establish for-profit schools.

Finally, the NY State Medical Board hasn't formally censured Dr. Oz mostly because the laws in place don't allow them to do so (laws that should be changed in my opinion).

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/12/5891451/meet-the-medical-student-who-wants-to-bring-down-dr-oz-quackery
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Yeah, I agree with all of that. Just don't act like this is something you expect the AOA to deal with. If the AOA's job was to stand up and make a fuss everytime a DO did something wrong or said something stupid, they'd be doing nothing but that (there's like 80,000 of us). If anything, the AZ osteopathic medical board should be dealing with him.
 
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Indeed. If you look at the (short) list of known anti-vaccine doctors, the vast majority of them are MDs.

hallowmann said:
To be fair, there are plenty of MDs that spread dubious info, last I checked the AMA wasn't doing anything to them. Heck, even the state of NY medical board is ignoring a petition against Dr. Oz led by a med student. Last I checked, it was only the FTC that paid him any attention.
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Goro said:
Indeed. If you look at the (short) list of known anti-vaccine doctors, the vast majority of them are MDs.
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That's probably because the majority of doctors in America are MDs. I don't have the link but there was a study that apparently showed that DOs were more likely to subscribe to questionable practices compared to MDs.
 
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Sadly, this I can believe. Some of my DO colleagues, though I love them like family, are susceptible to some rather peculiar notions. My dear friend Dr KC, who I go to whenever I need some OMM, once tried to validate the efficacy of homeopathy, and proceeded to run through every bogus notion that adherents of pseudoscience throw out when they defend their pet notion, from quantum physics to the failings of allopathic medicine (as if the latter is a proof).

It's kind of like having an eccentric aunt, whom you're very fond of. You roll your eyes and just keep quiet. For some people, pseudoscience is a belief system.


DrWBD said:
I don't have the link but there was a study that apparently showed that DOs were more likely to subscribe to questionable practices compared to MDs.
Click to expand...
 
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http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/politicsnow/la-pn-christie-vaccine-20150202-story.html
Rand Paul links vaccines to 'mental disorders'; Christie argues for 'choice'

... Paul, the Kentucky senator, stuck more consistently to his libertarian views. On a conservative radio program Monday morning, he said that he favors vaccines but that "most of them ought to be voluntary." Later, in an interview on CNBC, he upped the stakes, repeating that he saw the question as an "issue of freedom" then appearing to side with vaccine critics who have linked the shots to autism or other mental problems -- a position that has been repeatedly debunked and, in the case of autism, shown to be based on fraudulent research. "I think vaccines are one of the greatest medical breakthroughs that we have. I'm a big fan," Paul said. But then he quickly pivoted to criticism of government vaccination requirements. "I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," he said. "I think the parents should have some input. The state doesn't own your children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom."

Edit: In fairness to the other critters in Washington:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/...at-barack-obama-rand-paul-chris-christie-say/
... In 2008, Hillary Clinton was asked in a questionnaire from an autism group about whether vaccines should be investigated as a “possible cause” of autism. She answered: “I am committed to make investments to find the causes of autism, including possible environmental causes like vaccines.”
... At a 2008 rally, Mr. Obama said: “We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included. [Points to person in audience.] The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it.”
... Mr. Obama’s 2008 opponent, Sen. John McCain, has also raised questions about the safety of vaccines: “It’s indisputable that [autism] is on the rise among children, the question is what’s causing it. And we go back and forth and there’s strong evidence that indicates it’s got to do with a preservative in vaccines.”
 
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costales said:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/politicsnow/la-pn-christie-vaccine-20150202-story.html
Rand Paul links vaccines to 'mental disorders'; Christie argues for 'choice'

... Paul, the Kentucky senator, stuck more consistently to his libertarian views. On a conservative radio program Monday morning, he said that he favors vaccines but that "most of them ought to be voluntary." Later, in an interview on CNBC, he upped the stakes, repeating that he saw the question as an "issue of freedom" then appearing to side with vaccine critics who have linked the shots to autism or other mental problems -- a position that has been repeatedly debunked and, in the case of autism, shown to be based on fraudulent research. "I think vaccines are one of the greatest medical breakthroughs that we have. I'm a big fan," Paul said. But then he quickly pivoted to criticism of government vaccination requirements. "I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," he said. "I think the parents should have some input. The state doesn't own your children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom."
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Rand Paul seems like a class-A panderer. I'm all for civil liberties but yours end where mine begin.

Let's not pretend this is a GOP problem though. There are plenty of wealthy, 'educated' crunchy parents in places like Portland and Palo Alto driving this movement. Not exactly conservative strongholds.

I think there should be a limited number of vaccine exceptions given out per school district. To qualify you should have to show membership in an organized religion with a documented history of opposing vaccines. Even then there should be a limited number of exemptions avaliable so as to ensure that heard immunity remains intact. I believe wholeheartedly in freedom of conscience, but there have to be limits. We can't just let people get these 'personal belief' exemptions just because the feel like not vaccinating their kids.
 
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rand paul should know better.. everyone knows he's dr. rand paul.. he is the most famous doctor in congress and he has a big following. everything he says makes national news
 
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DrWBD said:
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/va...er_investigation_by_arizona_medical_board.php

Apparently he is "under investigation" by the Arizona Board of Osteopathic Examiners. If you feel strongly about this issue you should let the Board know it. Here's their website:
http://www.azdo.gov
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The article you linked to above has a link to a list of things he could be sanctioned for under Arizona law. If anyone is interested, here it is:

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/32/01854.htm&Title=32&DocType=ARS
 
Goro said:
Sadly, this I can believe. Some of my DO colleagues, though I love them like family, are susceptible to some rather peculiar notions. My dear friend Dr KC, who I go to whenever I need some OMM, once tried to validate the efficacy of homeopathy, and proceeded to run through every bogus notion that adherents of pseudoscience throw out when they defend their pet notion, from quantum physics to the failings of allopathic medicine (as if the latter is a proof).

It's kind of like having an eccentric aunt, whom you're very fond of. You roll your eyes and just keep quiet. For some people, pseudoscience is a belief system.
Click to expand...

While I've yet to work with any anti-vaxers directly, I've found the proportion of my colleagues with Wolfson-like over the top libertarian/social-Darwinist belief systems seems way higher among the DOs. I've never quite figured out why that is.
 
DrWBD said:
It's a generic statement that effectively says "Vaccines are good". That's not the same as directly acknowledging and addressing the problem of DOs who are, in my opinion, committing professional misconduct by spreading false information about vaccination.
Click to expand...

The AOA has its problems, but I'm not sure that's directly their job.
 
NurWollen said:
The article you linked to above has a link to a list of things he could be sanctioned for under Arizona law. If anyone is interested, here it is:

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/32/01854.htm&Title=32&DocType=ARS
Click to expand...

To be honest, he's pretty careful with his statements. Things to consider from this link:

6. Engaging in the practice of medicine in a manner that harms or may harm a patient or that the board determines falls below the community standard.
…
11. Representing that a manifestly incurable disease, injury, ailment or infirmity can be permanently cured or that a curable disease, injury, ailment or infirmity can be cured within a stated time, if this is not true.
…
15. Knowingly making any false or fraudulent statement, written or oral, in connection with the practice of medicine or when applying for or renewing privileges at a health care institution or a health care program.
…
19. Any conduct or practice contrary to recognized standards of ethics of the osteopathic medical profession.
…
38. Any conduct or practice that endangers a patient's or the public's health or may reasonably be expected to do so.
…
44. Conduct that the board determines constitutes gross negligence, repeated negligence or negligence that results in harm or death of a patient.
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DrWBD said:
Andrew Wakefield has been eviscerated by the medical and scientific community of the world. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise. I disagree that calling out any duplicitous physician, M.D. or D.O., constitutes "trolling".

Our representative organization, the AOA, should be denouncing quacks like him and Joe Mercola. Osteopathic physicians have historically been viewed as being less scientifically-minded in comparison to MDs and this does not help break that perception. Instead, in the midst of an historic resurgence in measles and other vaccine-preventable diseases, the AOA remains silent.
Click to expand...


He's being investigated and possibly having his license removed. That's the best way to shut him up: take away his ability to earn money.
 
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Andrew Wakefield committed actual scientific fraud and gave intellectual cover to the modern anti-vaccine movement. The other guys, like the former Playmate, are publicity hounds who like to run their mouths for their 15 minutes of fame. Revoking their license might not withstand a legal challenge.
 
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All the aforementioned are idiots, but I'm against Arthur Caplan PhD of NYU telling the states what to do with their physicians. Who elected him the ethics king of medicine?
 
jbradley said:
All the aforementioned are idiots, but I'm against Arthur Caplan PhD of NYU telling the states what to do with their physicians. Who elected him the ethics king of medicine?
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Yeah, I agree that we need to be careful. We need to protect society from quacks who are using their degree to give a false sense of legitimacy to their claims, but we also need to protect freedom of speech and freedom of thought. The idea of punishing anyone who dares to speak up against the establishment is kind of scary (even though the establishment is right on this issue.)

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not sure how to balance these competing ideals, but we need to try.
 
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NurWollen said:
Yeah, I agree that we need to be careful. We need to protect society from quacks who are using their degree to give a false sense of legitimacy to their claims, but we also need to protect freedom of speech and freedom of thought. The idea of punishing anyone who dares to speak up against the establishment is kind of scary (even though the establishment is right on this issue.)

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not sure how to balance these competing ideals, but we need to try.
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I think fines, penalties, or sanctions are sufficient. I don't revel in the idea of a physician losing their license over something not related to medical negligence, malicious intent, etc., but I also don't think it's a good idea for him to get no punishment for his actions. There are and should be consequences for abusing your authority to potentially harm others, especially in this profession.
 
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As an OMS4 I was doing a rotation with a community pediatrician -- happened to be the one who took care of my kids and I had known before I got into medicine -- anyway, a new family came in for a 6 month wcc and before the party even started, the parent whips out this article and promptly states that they don't believe in the vaccine schedules of the AAP/CDC and would like all of the vaccines broken down into single units so as not to "overload" the child's immune system.

The NP who was doing the visit gave him a "WTF" look -- the parent then proceeds to hand both the NP and I copies of this article written by a "doctor" (as they promptly pointed out) stating that multiple vaccinations would "overload" the kids immune system and lead to problems for the kid. The NP informed them that they were open to discussing alternate vaccination regimens and what did they have in mind --- the parent then proceeds to request a separate Measles, wait 1 month, then Mumps, wait one month, then Rubella -- wait 3 months, then (next in sequence), etc. as per this "article". They were promptly informed that we couldn't split MMR but we could do singles at their request, etc.

So I'm standing there looking at the article and I flip to the end of it to check the creds on the author ---- turns out it was a cardio-thoracic surgeon from the Seattle area -- adult CT cutter....

Since I was a student, it was not my place to point out that this guy had likely 1 month of pediatrics when he was a med student and nothing else --

I just had to grit my teeth and reset the "low tolerance for stupidity" meter that was pegged.....
 
I had a patient tell me she really liked how he was so busy he didn't have time to remove his scrubs - and she wanted him to wear scrubs because she wanted to see his package.
 
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