"Hey, I'm going to be in your field too!"

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BuzzPhreed

BuzzPhreed

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Here's a brief transcript of an actual conversation I had recently with the 20-year-old phlebotomist at my local place of employment. As a back story, I was having my annual cholesterol check as required by my employer. They also check for plasma cotinine levels. (So, gotta put the cigars away for a couple of weeks for this one.)

Anyway... here goes... (And, I swear to you this is 100% true and not making this up. I'm sure many of you have been in similar situations):

Phlebotomist (P): "So, you're a doctor right?"
Buzz (Me): "Yeah, how could you tell?"
(P): "Haha. Yeah, right. So, what kinda doctor are you?"
(Me): "I'm an anesthesiologist."
(P): "Hey, I'm going to be in your field too! Cool, right?"
(Me): "Oh, really. That's interesting."
(P): "Yeah, I'm in nursing school. Well, actually I'm not in nursing school yet. I just applied. I'm gonna get my LPN. Then when I start working I'm going to finish my BSN. Then I'm going to be a nurse anesthetist. Maybe we'll be working together someday. Wouldn't that be cool?"
(Me): "Yeah, I dunno. We'll see. Maybe."
(P): "Yeah, maybe. Being an anesthesiologist is awesome, right? What do you think?"
(Me): "Well, I think there are a lot of ambitious young people who want to be nurse anesthetists."
(P): "Yeah, the pay is so incredible, right?"
(Me): "Yeah. Cool."

In situations like this, I really wish she'd just taken the needle she was drawing blood with and stuck it in her own eye. Or, better yet, rammed it through my carotid and just let me bleed out right there on the spot.

This is the mentality out there. No f'in clue what I do. Just see the $$$. For the love of all that is pure and good, I sincerely hope that people like this don't even get into nursing school in the first place.
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There are many well informed young people these days. Saying that more and more young adults have figured the BSN age 22. 1 year icu. Than jump to CRNA school for 30 months.

Quite a few graduating srnas at ripe old age of 25-26 these days. And this is where the Asa needs to make their kill shot. If AANA wants independent practice. They need to start attacking whether these young 25-26 year old new crnas are ready for full independent practice. The AANA can't have it both ways. They can't let some be supervised and some be in independent practice.

Let them loose. Let an AMC run the show with all thee newbies doing solo practice at tertiary medical centers. That will be the true human study. If they are safe than the AANA wins. I'd they are not safe than the Asa wins.
 
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And I want to be Lebron. That would be so cool! Doesn't matter that I'm 5'8" and nearsighted, right?
 
Buzz...I hear EVERY word of that!

My version was: I was studying w/some massive anesthesiology text at a coffee shop in residency, and a young girl said "Excuse me...are you an anesthesiologist?". I said "Almost."

She replies: "I really wanna do that, but don't think I could get through nursing school."

Whatevs.
 
My umbrage with the situation is that this was essentially a high school grad that was equating in her mind that the pathway I endured, an additional full 12 years past what she'd already accomplished, is readily accessible to someone - anyone - with a nursing degree and a little ambition. It diminishes the overnight 24+ hour calls I took as a resident dealing with incredibly complex and very sick patients, doing liver transplants, taking care of premature neonates requiring correction of all manner of bizarre congenital anomalies, and learning the intricacies of practicing the art of medicine. The list goes on and on.

I think turning them loose does a tremendous disservice to our profession. But I agree that this is probably the only solution. No back-up. No bail outs. They have to become the last and only line of defense for the true differences between our training pathways will supersede. I have worked with some incredibly gifted and talented CRNAs who have vast experience and to whom I listen when they bring a concern to my attention. But rote application of a broad science that often requires deft application of all of the skills of a doctor diminishes what we do if they are set free on the public.

This is a real conundrum. We are - and have always been - the safety net when something goes wrong. And we are horrible at quantifying the "near misses" in our profession where if there hadn't been keen intervention catastrophe would've abounded. I'm sure this happens regularly. I've seen and lived it. Yet I'm sure a lot of those catastrophes will still fall through the cracks even with such a solution.

You can't have a dual system where some CRNAs with marginal skills and experience are allowed to practice freely and unsupervised in an environment where all CRNAs can do as they please. I think the truly excellent CRNAs would start to feel a lot of what we already know, especially when they are placed in a position of having to routinely bail out their weakling nurse colleagues. You see, they don't work with each other. They work under us (at least in 35 states) almost exclusively. And until then we are relegated to saving the ass of 25 year-old ex-phlebotomists who want nothing more than the glory and - more importantly - a cut of the big pay for what we do on a routine basis.
 
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It happens in other specialties, also. My wife (radiology resident) gets "Oh, you're a radiologist? My son/daughter/cousin/niece is going to be a radiologist soon. They just have a few more night classes at the community college..." all the time.

Some people do it out of jealousy, some out of ignorance, some out of both.
 
What sinks us is the entire concept and mania of healthcare "teams". That's why all nurses (not only CRNAs) can afford "practicing at the top of their license". How far would they get on their own, without our safety net? It's very easy to have a big mouth when you have been less than a resident your entire professional life.
 
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Yeah, FFP. Nail on the head. Everyone is in charge so no one is in charge... until the lawyers get involved. Then your answer will be "yes your honor, no your honor."
 
[cheesy daytime commercial]

Want to make as much money as a doctor, and practice like a doctor, but don't want to study all that science for 8 years of college and med school? If this sounds like you, a job as a nurse anesthetist may be for you! Call today!

[/cheesy daytime commercial]
 
This is so depressing.
 
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The general public is stupid. Nurses have a very effective marketing campaign to pretend they are equally effective to physicians except cheaper to train and provide the same care for less cost. A lot of people buy it. A LOT of CRNAs buy it. But not all. The smart ones know. The problem is the dumb ones don't know what they don't know and don't know they would be dangerous if turned loose.

In my experience, out of every 100 CRNAs: about 5-10 could probably get by fairly safe if they were practicing indepedently. They'd be nervous and know when to ask for help (though not sure who they'd be asking) and would get by just fine. About 50-60 could get by just fine on mostly healthy patients having minor procedures. The rest would be varying degrees of dangerous ranging from hoping to not have anything too terrible happen to outright assassinating patients (aka the anesthesia clean kill). I mean the things I've seen people on the verge of doing to patients is downright scary.

The snarky part of me says cut them loose and let some patients die and we'll see how tough their talk is now. The physician part of me is unwilling to let them experiment on human lives.
 
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pgg said:
I can't believe you guys are getting so angsty about what some stupid kid about 10 minutes out of high school thinks.
Click to expand...

It belies a general perception in the public about how "easy" it is what we do as well as how much we're thus relatively overpaid. And such a perception so readily fomented by young people lends ammo to the oft-stated belief that we're therefore equal and that the people in charge of paying us should work actively cut our reimbursements to level the playing field.

Mman said:
The snarky part of me says cut them loose and let some patients die and we'll see how tough their talk is now. The physician part of me is unwilling to let them experiment on human lives.
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat.
 
let me get this strait, you get the verbal equivalent of a hummer, (young lady expressing an interest in your field, saying how cool it s, looking forward to possibly working with you) Who has some ambition and at least some plan, and all of you are BITC%ING? Many of you Cough OP complain of poor PR, but there is NO spin that could correct this. OP I really hope your lockdown mode includes your mouth.
 
Whatever, nurse. We will never be in the "same field" unless she completes college, goes to medical school, finishes an anesthesiology residency, and gets board certified as an anesthesiologist. And FWIW she wasn't hot.
 
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BuzzPhreed said:
It belies a general perception in the public about how "easy" it is what we do as well as how much we're thus relatively overpaid. And such a perception so readily fomented by young people lends ammo to the oft-stated belief that we're therefore equal and that the people in charge of paying us should work actively cut our reimbursements to level the playing field.
Click to expand...

Oh for the love of god, find me a highly paid professional in ANY field who feels that the lay public really understands his skill, his level of sacrifice, the difficulty of his working hours, or the consequences of his mistakes. From the guy who owns a pair of Burger Kings to the plumber who charges $90/hour to the general contractor to the teacher to even the ne'er-seen SDN idol i-banker ...

The lay public doesn't know squat, and most of them don't know what they don't know. They see a corner of our lives on stupid TV shows.

If you tie your sense of self-worth to whether or not they adore and respect and understand you, you're in for a lifetime of heartburn.
 
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BuzzPhreed said:
Here's a brief transcript of an actual conversation I had recently with the 20-year-old phlebotomist at my local place of employment. As a back story, I was having my annual cholesterol check as required by my employer. They also check for plasma cotinine levels. (So, gotta put the cigars away for a couple of weeks for this one.)

Anyway... here goes... (And, I swear to you this is 100% true and not making this up. I'm sure many of you have been in similar situations):

Phlebotomist (P): "So, you're a doctor right?"
Buzz (Me): "Yeah, how could you tell?"
(P): "Haha. Yeah, right. So, what kinda doctor are you?"
(Me): "I'm an anesthesiologist."
(P): "Hey, I'm going to be in your field too! Cool, right?"
(Me): "Oh, really. That's interesting."
(P): "Yeah, I'm in nursing school. Well, actually I'm not in nursing school yet. I just applied. I'm gonna get my LPN. Then when I start working I'm going to finish my BSN. Then I'm going to be a nurse anesthetist. Maybe we'll be working together someday. Wouldn't that be cool?"
(Me): "Yeah, I dunno. We'll see. Maybe."
(P): "Yeah, maybe. Being an anesthesiologist is awesome, right? What do you think?"
(Me): "Well, I think there are a lot of ambitious young people who want to be nurse anesthetists."
(P): "Yeah, the pay is so incredible, right?"
(Me): "Yeah. Cool."

In situations like this, I really wish she'd just taken the needle she was drawing blood with and stuck it in her own eye. Or, better yet, rammed it through my carotid and just let me bleed out right there on the spot.

This is the mentality out there. No f'in clue what I do. Just see the $$$. For the love of all that is pure and good, I sincerely hope that people like this don't even get into nursing school in the first place.
Click to expand...
To think Anesthesiologists are responsible for ****heads like this (the phlebotomist future CRNA).
 
If I had a dime for every nurse I worked with that claimed they wanted to go to CRNA school, my medical school tuition would be paid for. Basically every other BSN student and fresh grad wants to become a CRNA someday. To date, of literally hundreds I've met that have expressed the desire to be a CRNA, zero that I know of have taken the plunge. The same problem that led many to nursing school rather than medical school often holds them back- their desire for a reasonable lifestyle and a course of study that doesn't consume years of their life. Many end up doing part time APRN programs that more correctly match their level of ambition and the time they are willing to commit to furthering their career.
 
ICU RN here. Every 2 years we get that new grad crop who use the unit as a stepping stone. 80% of which are all talk and never do it.

I've shadowed several CRNA'S/& anesthesiologist and I cant say to any degree of certainty I want to spend the rest of my life in an OR.

I have a friend graduating from CRNA school in December and has already expressed his desire to get his PhD.... His reasoning? So he can get called doctor in the OR. Mid levels have a place, but are trying to take too much....and the whole "distance learning" for NPs opens the gate for incompetent practitioners.

A friend of mine, who is a physician, told me by choosing medicine you are deciding that you want to be the expert in your chosen field. I wouldn't want to practice any other way and the nursing routes don't advocate this, in my opinion.
 
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Whenever I come across someone who wants to go into anesthesiology - whether it be nursing student, ICU nurse, or medical student - I wish them well. I tell them what I like about it, what makes it difficult, and ultimately that I like what I do. The process of learning anesthesia is difficult enough, people who can't cut it at their level of training will be weeded out. I think everyone should try to better themselves. CRNA school may be different, but I don't think it's necessarily easy. You still need some brains and guts.
 
Agast said:
Whenever I come across someone who wants to go into anesthesiology - whether it be nursing student, ICU nurse, or medical student - I wish them well. I tell them what I like about it, what makes it difficult, and ultimately that I like what I do. The process of learning anesthesia is difficult enough, people who can't cut it at their level of training will be weeded out. I think everyone should try to better themselves. CRNA school may be different, but I don't think it's necessarily easy. You still need some brains and guts.
Click to expand...

CRNA school is definitely not easy. But as more schools open it has gotten less competitive to get into (still competitive though).
 
A nurse will ALWAYS be a nurse in the OR. No one in their right mind would call them "Dr." even if they did get their PHD. That's just laughable.
 
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sevoflurane said:
A nurse will ALWAYS be a nurse in the OR. No one in their right mind would call them "Dr." even if they did get their PHD. That's just laughable.
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Give it another 20 years. Some physician assistants are now referring to themselves as "Physician Associates"
 
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sevoflurane said:
A nurse will ALWAYS be a nurse in the OR. No one in their right mind would call them "Dr." even if they did get their PHD. That's just laughable.
Click to expand...

I hope you got my tone in the post, because I agree with you.
 
FCMike11 said:
CRNA school is definitely not easy. But as more schools open it has gotten less competitive to get into (still competitive though).
Click to expand...

CRNA school is academically easier than my undergrad degree and it isn't even close and I have several 1st degree relatives that are CRNAs that I respect greatly so I'm not trying to denigrate it. It's not even remotely close to a bottom tier medical school or residency.
 
Mman said:
CRNA school is academically easier than my undergrad degree and it isn't even close and I have several 1st degree relatives that are CRNAs that I respect greatly so I'm not trying to denigrate it. It's not even remotely close to a bottom tier medical school or residency.
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Didn't insinuate it was harder than medical school or residency. It being easier than your undergrad degree...Ok?
 
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sevoflurane said:
A nurse will ALWAYS be a nurse in the OR. No one in their right mind would call them "Dr." even if they did get their PHD. That's just laughable.
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The patients absolutely will. Most patients are oblivious...and unless it's someone who physically doesn't fit their idea of a doctor (ie late 20s attractive female) they would never pursue it.
 
FCMike11 said:
I hope you got my tone in the post, because I agree with you.
Click to expand...

There was a conversation in the surgeons lounge the other day between an ortho np and a few crnas. The crnas teased the np that he was only going back to school for his dnp so he could be called doctor.

I had a discussion later with my group about what our policy would be when we starting hiring crnas with dnps. I suggested we instruct them not to call themselves Dr when talking to patients. It wasn't universally agreed to though.
 
Sublimazing said:
The patients absolutely will. Most patients are oblivious...and unless it's someone who physically doesn't fit their idea of a doctor (ie late 20s attractive female) they would never pursue it.
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I've gotten into arguments with my pain clinic patients who insist that so and so is a dr. Either their referral np or some np who did some sort of injection.
 
chmd said:
I've gotten into arguments with my pain clinic patients who insist that so and so is a dr. Either their referral np or some np who did some sort of injection.
Click to expand...

There is an ortho PA who we do cases with and whom I personally like a lot. He's excellent. Not infrequently I'll be rounding on post-op catheter patients (etc.) at the same time he is. Invariably I will hear the nurses say, "good morning, doctor" to him! Now, I like the guy but do you think he ever corrects this misconception?
 
dr doze said:
Meaningless. All depends on how you ask the question: http://c3452069.r69.cf0.rackcdn.com/Poll_results_memo.pdf
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Yeah, the Mellman group is clearly a "scientific" organization. :rolleyes:

Whether winning for you means getting more votes than your opponent, selling more product, changing public policy, raising more money or generating more activism, The Mellman Group transforms data into winning strategies.
Click to expand...

http://mellmangroup.com/

How far are we going to lower the bar? That's what the public needs to ask itself.
 
I agree with you. But, then again,

"Principle is OK up to a certain point, but principle doesn't do any good if you lose."
-Dick Cheney
 
I was talking with a pretty senior nurse today. She said "yea my husband is an anesthesiologist here also, but he's leaving soon!". I asked "wait, who is your husband?". When she told me his name, guess what.. he's a CRNA! I asked why her husband was leaving. She said "he would rather work in an all CRNA group and not deal with the stupid hierarchy here". :unsure:
 
I was doing a pre-op the other day and the patient's daughter, probably in her 30's, says to her dad, "Listen to him, he makes more money than the doctors do!" HAHA
 
FCMike11 said:
Didn't insinuate it was harder than medical school or residency. It being easier than your undergrad degree...Ok?
Click to expand...

It's absolutely easier than most of our undergrads because unlike nurses most of us went to actual universities to get our bachelors degrees instead of elm st college to get a nursing Degree then oak street college for their CRNA school.
 
GaseousClay said:
It's absolutely easier than most of our undergrads because unlike nurses most of us went to actual universities to get our bachelors degrees instead of elm st college to get a nursing Degree then oak street college for their CRNA school.
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+1. When attending a Crna school graduation I was floored when the announcer stated that the average GPA of that graduating class during Crna school was a 3.8 and everyone ooo'd and ahhh'd. It's Idiocracy. I almost laughed aloud.
 
Well I hope all of you that get these dumb, ignorant comments and responses by people correct them. Public education is the only way to correct ignorance. When I hear stuff like that, I always say, "oh your husband is a nurse anesthetist, not an anesthesiologist" or " You will be a nurse not a doctor and CRNAS work under us." Or I hope you are prepared to go to medical school then if you want to be an anesthesiologist and explain the path and dedication it takes. Maybe we can provide some insight to the ignorance We need to correct the blatant lack of knowledge and not just complain about it .
 
Immediately after being accepted to med school, I learned that when people find out you're going to be a doctor, they love to tell you all about their big plans for the future. Which is great; I listen to them, wish them luck, etc.

People like to feel good about themselves. It's normal. They want people to listen and they want validation. I'm obviously not a physician yet, but I'd like to think that when I am and this sort of situation comes up, I'll respond in a different way. What's wrong with just smiling, listening, and saying "that's great! best of luck to you!" Do we really need to make sure people are put in their place?
 
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GaseousClay said:
It's absolutely easier than most of our undergrads because unlike nurses most of us went to actual universities to get our bachelors degrees instead of elm st college to get a nursing Degree then oak street college for their CRNA school.
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I'm not here to cause trouble. But most are affiliated with univerisites. The atmosphere here is awful. These comments are similar to the crap on nursing forums I see bashing doctors.
 
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FCMike11 said:
I'm not here to cause trouble. But most are affiliated with univerisites. The atmosphere here is awful. These comments are similar to the crap on nursing forums I see bashing doctors.
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Better than being spineless ******* like the old generation Anesthesiologists who were willing to train the CRNAs that will eventually take over.
 
Baller MD said:
Better than being spineless ******* like the old generation Anesthesiologists who were willing to train the CRNAs that will eventually take over.
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Are they not being trained by physicians anymore?...seems like every institution i rotated through their was at least 1 srna school getting instructed by physician attendings...
 
FCMike11 said:
I have a friend graduating from CRNA school in December and has already expressed his desire to get his PhD.... His reasoning? So he can get called doctor in the OR. Mid levels have a place, but are trying to take too much....and the whole "distance learning" for NPs opens the gate for incompetent practitioners.
Click to expand...

Important point to remember - when a CRNA talks about getting their doctorate, they're talking about a DNP or DNAP - doctorate of nursing (anesthesia) practice. They most certainly are NOT talking about a PhD. They aren't even remotely equal. However, them wanting to be called "doctor" is absolutely true, despite the fact that they will absolutely lie about it.
 
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