Horrible GPA, Good MCATs, EC, Research

[hopefulpremed04]

Hello. I know there are several threads about this but I have a somewhat unique situation and would like some additional advice if possible. My stats:
Emory Graduate 2013
cGPA: 2.839
sGPA: 2.691 (four Ds, bio major)
MCAT Jan 2015: 30 (12 Bio, 11 Verbal, 7 Physical)
MCAT April 2015: Prelim (85-100% Bio, CARS, Physical, 83-98% Psychology, 90-100% overall)
Research: 3 years clinical, with full patient interaction
Manuscripts: 3 second author, 1 third author, likely 2 more second author and 1 first author by application submission)
Posters: 3 as first author (all presented at national meetings), one oral as second
Volunteer: 50 hours children's hospital, approx. 20 hours on stroke awareness and legislative action, co-founded and led support group for cardiac patients (7 meetings over two years, approx. 100 hours)
Shadowing: Tons, formal estimate approx. 400 hours (almost every day part time, and two full summers)
No underrepresented or minority status. Georgia resident. 24 years old. No previous applications.
Strong preference for MD and not DO due to family member badly injured by spinal manipulation
Above average personal statement and excellent/good recommendations post graduation

Had a horrible college experience with significant depression, apathy and total lack of interest in my education, goals, or future. Have controlled/treated that situation. My work ethic and study skills have vastly improved, starting around the time of MCAT studying, and continue to this day.

Currently doing Post-bacc course work at local college (13 credit hours) that will be sent in with the current applications.

Generally feel that GPA will be a deal breaker at most if not all MD schools, and may have to attempt a full post-bacc course load with perfect grades to be seriously considered, which I am willing to do. My questions, however, is 1. what are the general thoughts on me applying now with the above info and a hypothetical 4.0 on the summer course work? 2. If I complete the post-back with a 4.0 or close to it, what are the general thoughts about my chances.
Any advice/opinions welcome and appreciated.

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[Vain Brother]

great job on the MCAT

you're a couple years of A post-bac work away from a med school acceptance

 

[Lawpy]

Your GPA is way too low that you will be screened out of both MD and DO.

Honestly, I don't even think a postbacc will help bump your cGPA and sGPA above a 3, so your best bet is to take an SMP. Your new MCAT score looks encouraging, but do keep in mind that some schools average the two scores. Your ECs are good though.

The fastest way is to retake all C and below and apply DO, but you decisively ruled out that option. It'll be tough so I'll let @Goro provide a more detailed insight.

 

[ZedsDed]

You are going to have to get your GPA over a 3.0, with or without an SMP. Don't bother applying to an SMP right now, as even if one lets you in you aren't ready for that kind of academic rigor. My suggestion is to retake your classes and apply DO. I think an SMP will be overkill if you go this route. If MD is really what you want, then you are several years away from that. You might also have to retake the MCAT by the time you apply, even though your score is okay as is; not stellar, but acceptable. On a side note: how do you have 400 hours of shadowing and only 50 hours of clinical volunteering? I don't think your situation is that unique, to be honest. You can find many premeds in the postbac forum with similar stats. Assuming you succeed at all of the above, you can accomplish your goals. Good luck, keep your eye on the ball!

 

[Goro]

You'll need to ace the post-bac, and I don't think a single semester will be convincing that you can handle a medical school curriculum. Your MCAT scores will need to be >90%ile, unless you live in a "lucky state" like KS, FL, TX or LA.

You will have much better luck with DO schools.

Generally feel that GPA will be a deal breaker at most if not all MD schools, and may have to attempt a full post-bacc course load with perfect grades to be seriously considered, which I am willing to do. My questions, however, is 1. what are the general thoughts on me applying now with the above info and a hypothetical 4.0 on the summer course work? 2. If I complete the post-back with a 4.0 or close to it, what are the general thoughts about my chances.
Any advice/opinions welcome and appreciated.[/QUOTE]

 

[jl lin]

Strong preference for MD and not DO due to family member badly injured by spinal manipulation

OK, so you do realize that MDs have been held liable for botched/bad procedures or neglect or other issues of malpractice, right?
Just a little surprised at the whole "throw the baby out with the bath water" on the DO deal.

I will tell you that I have worked at some of the absolute top medical centers as well as few in-between. Guess what? All these places have had malpractice suits, which have included physicians, nurses, and others.
So, I am not sure what your issue with DO is, b/c in the grand scheme of things, everyone with a license is at risk and has to be at the top of their game.

 

[candbgirl]

Don't apply now. You will be auto screened based on your GPAs. Were any of the Ds in prerequisites? If so you'll have to retake those classes. Don't worry about not wanting DO. With your GPAs they won't want you. I honestly don't see med school in your future anytime soon. You have years of grade repair/enhancement ahead of you.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I have no idea what the reason you gave for your preference to MD over DO really means but all I'll say is really look into a DO school before finding reasons to degrade it and not want to go to it. In general a ton of people's reasons on here as for why they want to go MD and not DO unless they absolutely have to aren't exactly well thought out.

I'll tell you two things first: the best way to approximate your chances for an MD acceptance is through this chart. https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf-------This is obviously rough and there are alot of confounding factors but long story short even if you get your gpa up to a 3.1, the odds are still around 30% of you getting into an MD school with your MCAT. Keep in mind your MCAT is actually below the average of MD matriculants(31.4) and while you have a very good verbal your physical sciences is below 8 which is definitely a red flag. So your title "good MCAT score" is probably misleading. You need to retake that considering your GPA(even for a DO school with that 7 PS and GPA combo).

What you have going for you is most of those kids who do get accepted with such low GPAs usually have strong things that can push for them. You have that with exceptional research and if you can get your GPA up to 3.1 you'll have some upward trend. It also helps you went to a very good undergrad university as opposed to State U. So while this chart is usually inflating people's chances because most people don't have things that really stand out and work in their favor, you have some of those things so that's a positive.

Now, there are red flags obviously here. It's not as simple as saying I'm doing better now my issues in the past are completely gone. What I'll say below will probably come across as controversial but I have a really good family friend who I've known most of my life who is an ADCOM at a med school in my area. I had issues with seizures and neurological complications which caused me to stay in college an extra year which is what spawned this conversation I had with her about 2 years ago. I've had several conversations with her after that and these are some thoughts she's had and advice she's given me.

As one family friend I have who is an ADCOM at a med school in my region told me, there are ADCOMs who can be paranoid about past issues such as depression and other health issues, especially those mental. Let's assume you take 3 semesters of sciences classes do very well and get your GPA up to a 3.1. There are still going to be ADCOMs who are going to be very cautious with someone who had issues mentally in the past that led to poor performance because of the thought that med school is much more stressful and taxing and how someone will handle that if they've already had issues in the past will concern them. Now, I'll say I don't agree with this line of reasoning at all. I think it's absurd to assume there are reasons to worry about someone because in the past they had depression but now are doing alot better but those could resurface from some stress. But I'll tell you, I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you and this was something my family friend who's an ADCOM really stressed. There are some ADCOMs who'll be alot harder to sway that you are ok and that your past issues won't resurface no matter what you do(this is the case for me also even though my chances of getting the complications I had again are almost the same as any average person getting them). There are ADCOMs who'll say, we have so many other applicants with similar stats, why take a chance on this one having issues that could resurface? As she said "some are just really stubborn and get nervous about prior issues that caused very poor performance or you to leave school". What she did tell me as advice and the best solution to this is to take time off to create a bigger time period between when you apply and when those issues happened in the past. And that when you are currently applying, you are doing very well and in good condition. They need to be convinced 100% those issues are behind you and like she said some of them aren't always the most rational on this.

So my best advice to based off everything is to take some time off. It is mandatory to improve your GPA through some kind of post-bacc; a 2.8 just won't fly. 3-4 strong semesters of 3.8+GPA work can improve your GPA to around a 3.1 which at least won't eliminate you right away at some schools. You're retaking your MCAT and based on your verbal and bio sections your definitely capable of doing well on this new one, particularly since they removed much of what was on the old PS. Take time, focus and study it, and do your best. I'm not sure what the new MCAT score conversions come out to, but a realistic and necessary goal for you probably is to get 95+percentile(equivalent to a 35 or so on the old MCAT). Keep doing productive things with your time. You've done your fair share of research, see if you can parlay that experience into a clinical job. For example I have a couple friends who were neuroscience majors who did a lot of research)clinically and in basic neuroscience) and that helped them get a job as a clinical neurophys intraooperative assistant that make $60K a year. That's the type of thing that can enhance your application. I would say do this even if you do end up changing your perspective and mind on DO schools and show more interest in applying to them. A DO school GPA average is close to a 3.5 these days; a 2.8 GPA and 30 MCAT won't fly for that either. You need a better GPA/MCAT combination regardless of where you apply. Best of luck mate.

 

[hopefulpremed04]

I greatly appreciate all of the thought-out responses I received. Online forums can be notoriously tough (the truth sucks) but I didn't expect this many long, helpful replies. As I am a graduate I lack access to many resources so the more advice the better. Thank you.
A few general responses:
- MCAT
The MCAT score I have been referencing, and called "good", is my retake where I scored a preliminary 90-100% overall with no section below the 83 percentile. I would not consider my 1st score of 30 to be good or even passable considering my GPA. I may be putting too much weight on these preliminary results, but with AAMC's stated 90% confidence I do feel my overall will be at least above an 85th percentile which may be acceptable.
- Possible DO School
Without sharing too many details, I feel I need to clarify. I apologize if I offended anyone or their career path but this is an entirely individual feeling and not something I feel should apply to anyone else. One of my family members was permanently disabled due to a spinal manipulation, per the treating neurologist, that led to multiple surgeries and a three year hospital/rehabilitation stay. I have thus formed the opinion that spinal manipulation presents with significant risks and questionable benefits. I understand mistakes can happen and nothing in medicine is without risk or bad outcomes. I also do not fear malpractice issues or graduating with what some would derisively call a sub-MD degree. It would, however, be difficult for me to spend numerous hours learning and applying theories with which I disagree. I understand this may be an irrational personal bias and for that reason I have not completely ruled out DO programs; I would just greatly prefer an MD program due to the minor but important conceptual differences.
- Issues in Undergrad Years
Again without too much detail, I have always been an above average/exceptional student (GPA 3.9/4.0) without any problems throughout high school. During my senior year of HS, I suffered multiple concussions playing football and either coincidentally or as a result, began a very downward spiral with lack of focus day to day and long term. I developed significant sleep problems (horrible sleep latency > 5 hours) which prevented me from attending more than 25% of classes throughout my college years. As my grades and personal life completely deteriorated, the problems compounded on themselves and I was truly lost for all four years of school. My fault, and greatest regret, is that I did not seek help until after graduation, at which point things dramatically turned around. I never took any time off or made a deliberate attempt to change my situation during college which was shortsighted and ignorant. I feel comfortable enough explaining this situation to almost anyone who asks, and have come up with numerous plans and contingencies to ensure I do not repeat this situation. It does, however, understandably remain a significant hurdle and red flag.

Specific Responses:

Honestly, I don't even think a postbacc will help bump your cGPA and sGPA above a 3, so your best bet is to take an SMP.

Could you please clarify the advantage in my situation of an SMP over post-back? I know that the SMP will grant me an additional degree with a GPA in difficult courses, but as far as demonstrating the ability to withstand rigorous academics couldn't a well-designed post-bacc program with enough credit hours do so as well? I am open to either, but the cost of an SMP as well as the need to relocate presents enough of a challenge that I should explore all options.

a side note: how do you have 400 hours of shadowing and only 50 hours of clinical volunteering?

To clarify, the 50 hours of volunteer I counted were hours that were devoted to supporting the hospital and the patients, organizing activities and playing games, without any real clinical observation. My shadowing hours counted are only those in which my primary role was to follow physicians around and observe. Am I confusing or creating unnecessary barriers between the two categories?

As one family friend I have who is an ADCOM at a med school in my region told me, there are ADCOMs who can be paranoid about past issues such as depression and other health issues, especially those mental.

Thank you. This has actually been one of my greatest concerns so I really appreciate you addressing it. Do you have any advice on ways to prove that these issues are behind me, other than the honest and rigorous plan I have to intervene if they begin again, and succeeding in future course work?

Keep doing productive things with your time. You've done your fair share of research, see if you can parlay that experience into a clinical job. For example I have a couple friends who were neuroscience majors who did a lot of research)clinically and in basic neuroscience) and that helped them get a job as a clinical neurophys intraooperative assistant that make $60K a year. That's the type of thing that can enhance your application.

I am now two years out post-graduation and have been working as a paid researcher. While the publications are mostly due to my work outside of my job with a separate physician, I feel I have contributed a good deal in my field and can talk about this to anyone interviewer who asks. How many years do you think is enough to put between my college record and present to make a difference? Again, thank you and good luck to you as well.

 

[ZedsDed]

To clarify, the 50 hours of volunteer I counted were hours that were devoted to supporting the hospital and the patients, organizing activities and playing games, without any real clinical observation. My shadowing hours counted are only those in which my primary role was to follow physicians around and observe. Am I confusing or creating unnecessary barriers between the two categories?

No, the division is correct. But you need (at least) 200 hours or so of clinical volunteering. Shadowing is not volunteering. As LizzyM says you need to be close enough to smell the patient. Or as Goro would say you need to show AdComs that you want to be around sick people for the next 40 years. Applicants do get rejected on this alone.