How difficult is it for DO's to match in competitive residencies?

[LuluLovesMe]

Say you have an above average, but not exceptional DO graduate who scored 250 on Step 1 and 255 on Step 2. Ranked in the top 1/4 of his class but without anything else outstanding.

Which residencies would be entirely out of reach?

Which ones would be still extremely difficult to get into?

Wondering most about Dermatology and Ophthalmology.

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[Seth Joo]

It really depends upon your board scores, a friend of mine claimed someone at his school got into MD Ophthalmology a few years ago, but I could not find any record of anyone at his school matching in such a program. I think most programs are reachable, you just have to do well on the boards and make a good impression during your clinical rotations so you can get glowing LORs.

 

[paintballguy]

there's a discussion about a similar topic for derm a couple of weeks ago called -- MD vs DO derm. check it out

 

[DopaDO]

Say you have an above average, but not exceptional DO graduate who scored 250 on Step 1 and 255 on Step 2. Ranked in the top 1/4 of his class but without anything else outstanding.

Which residencies would be entirely out of reach?

Which ones would be still extremely difficult to get into?

Wondering most about Dermatology and Ophthalmology.

Class rank is meaningless unless you are AOA (which us DOs can't get). While a 250 step 1 is mildly above average for both specialties, it isn't the eye opener it used to be. My impression while on the interview trail was that step score just gets you in the door. You need to have the whole package. A person with those step scores, but no research, crappy LORs (maybe the most important thing), bland PS, etc isn't matching regardless of MD or DO.

 

[Seth Joo]

Class rank is meaningless unless you are AOA (which us DOs can't get). While a 250 step 1 is mildly above average for both specialties, it isn't the eye opener it used to be. My impression while on the interview trail was that step score just gets you in the door. You need to have the whole package. A person with those step scores, but no research, crappy LORs (maybe the most important thing), bland PS, etc isn't matching regardless of MD or DO.

Those are two of the toughest residency programs, so this is true.

 

[ortnakas]

It's not easy for "exceptional" MDs to get those residencies, either.

 

[Seth Joo]

It's not easy for "exceptional" MDs to get those residencies, either.

Those two programs are nearly out of reach for DOs though.

 

[Goro]

I don't have the chart handy, alas, but it shows the %s in specialties by which ACGME PDs will NOT accept COMLEX I as a licensing exam. Not surprisingly, fields like Psych, Family Practice, PM&R have the highest level of acceptance, and the most competitive specialties (Derm, Neuro etc) have the lowest.

Oddly, these same highly discerning PDs are more accepting of COMLEX II!

I don't think any of my grads have made it into Derm, but some have into Ophthal

Say you have an above average, but not exceptional DO graduate who scored 250 on Step 1 and 255 on Step 2. Ranked in the top 1/4 of his class but without anything else outstanding.

Which residencies would be entirely out of reach?

Which ones would be still extremely difficult to get into?

Wondering most about Dermatology and Ophthalmology.

 

[DopaDO]

Those two programs are nearly out of reach for DOs though.

I know DOs who have matched into both and other very competitive specialties. The average DO applicant is a worse overall applicant than the average MD applicant. Many MD applicants do not have the research, academic letters, or connections that the same MDs do have. I would agree with you that these programs are out of reach for the average DO as the average DO is not nearly the same caliber applicant as the average MD (and FTR they are also out of reach for the average MD).

Also, if there was any doubt, if you dont take USMLE you have no shot. Lets face it COMLEX is a pretty huge joke.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

I know DOs who have matched into both and other very competitive specialties. The average DO applicant is a worse overall applicant than the average MD applicant. Many MD applicants do not have the research, academic letters, or connections that the same MDs do have. I would agree with you that these programs are out of reach for the average DO as the average DO is not nearly the same caliber applicant as the average MD (and FTR they are also out of reach for the average MD).

Also, if there was any doubt, if you dont take USMLE you have no shot. Lets face it COMLEX is a pretty huge joke.

What residencies besides Family Medicine, Internal Medicine and Psychiatry are within reach for an above average but not exceptional DO grad? By within reach, I mean that it is not only possible, but likely to match somewhere into that particular specialty.

 

[IslandStyle808]

It's not easy for "exceptional" MDs to get those residencies, either.

At that point the school's name starts becoming a tie breaker (those not so important things become important at that level). There are programs where residents come from schools that everyone and their grandmother knows.

 

[gyngyn]

Not surprisingly, fields like Psych, Family Practice, PM&R have the highest level of acceptance, and the most competitive specialties (Derm, Neuro etc) have the lowest.

Neurology loves DO's. It's Neurosurgery that doesn't...

 

[Seth Joo]

At that point the schools name starts becoming a tie breaker (those not so important things become important at that level). There are programs where residents come from schools that everyone and their grandmother knows.

That is why people from large research schools are at a major advantage when it comes time to apply for a residency. I have seen some of the match lists at the top schools and they are nothing short of impressive.

 

[kenjixshadow]

What residencies besides Family Medicine, Internal Medicine and Psychiatry are within reach for an above average but not exceptional DO grad? By within reach, I mean that it is not only possible, but likely to match somewhere into that particular specialty.

EM (if you play the card right), Neurology, PM&R, Radiology, Anesthesiology, etc. well anything excluding surgery or surgical-subspecialties, or derm, or radiation oncology.

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

It really depends upon your board scores, a friend of mine claimed someone at his school got into MD Ophthalmology a few years ago, but I could not find any record of anyone at his school matching in such a program. I think most programs are reachable, you just have to do well on the boards and make a good impression during your clinical rotations so you can get glowing LORs.

match lists are often self-compiled by students. just b/c the "official" match list does not show an optho match does not mean they did not get into optho.

for example: ppl that are matching into competitive specialites might take a year off, so they will not self-report when they do match; ppl that are matching into pgy2 positions will not self-report; etc etc etc. Read inbetween the lines otherwise u will fall victim to the kool-aid

 

[Mad Jack]

AOA ophtho and derm residencies both get a LOT of bad publicity on this site.

And most of both will likely not survive the merger.

 

[Mad Jack]

What residencies besides Family Medicine, Internal Medicine and Psychiatry are within reach for an above average but not exceptional DO grad? By within reach, I mean that it is not only possible, but likely to match somewhere into that particular specialty.

EM, IM, path, psych, FM, peds, PM&R, rads, anesthesia, Ob/Gyn, and neurology are pretty accepting. General surgery is possible but not a sure shot, even with good stats. Everything else is a crapshoot.

 

[deleted564680]

Say you have an above average, but not exceptional DO graduate who scored 250 on Step 1 and 255 on Step 2. Ranked in the top 1/4 of his class but without anything else outstanding.

Which residencies would be entirely out of reach?

Which ones would be still extremely difficult to get into?

Wondering most about Dermatology and Ophthalmology.

Congrats on good scores. As other posters have said, however, these are not as wonderful as they were as little as ten years ago. The USMLE average has been steadily increasing, likely due to medical schools focusing on boards and technology making it easier for everyone to study board material. Also, higher scores are not as well received when coming attached to a D.O. application.

Anyway, with my recent personal history and association with those who have undergone matches in the past 3 years.....
I assume you are talking ACGME? Then..
Residencies out of reach/extremely difficult to get (in rough order): Neurosurgery, Integrated Plastics, ENT, Orthopedic Surgery, Rad onc, Dermatology, Ophtho, Urology
- Personally know someone who matched ACGME NSG but it was at arguably one of the "worst" ACGME program and actually a couple of AOA programs are "better"
- Know someone matched plastics at Mayo; good scores, tons of research, etc.
- These are matches that can be done but never counted on...as they are usually "special cases" such as luck that a rank list got down to a D.O., excessive research, connections, etc.

Most other residencies are able to be obtained but you will not be able to get a top 10-15 program and rarely a top 50 program. There have been D.O.s at Cleveland Clinic, UPMC, and Yale for radiology but those are top 20-30ish programs. There have been D.O.s at Hopkins for Anesthesia and that's arguably a top 10 program. Other examples I cannot provide from my own knowledge.

Good news is a lot of above specialties have AOA programs and some of those AOA programs are roughly equivalent to lower to mid-tier ACGME programs with the caveat that they will have to survive the merger. It appears at this point that a lot of AOA ophtho, derm, neurosurgery, ENT, and ortho programs will not survive but hey, miracles happen.

The other best advice I could give is to not get caught up in hoopla of "best programs" and such when you finally do apply. Main goals in order should be 1. get your specialty of choice 2. get as close to a tertiary care academic center as you can 3. get as close to the location you want to live in. If you can get all three then you're a stud, but 2 out of three would be good for most.

Best of luck.

 

[235009]

match lists are often self-compiled by students. just b/c the "official" match list does not show an optho match does not mean they did not get into optho.

for example: ppl that are matching into competitive specialites might take a year off, so they will not self-report when they do match; ppl that are matching into pgy2 positions will not self-report; etc etc etc. Read inbetween the lines otherwise u will fall victim to the kool-aid

That's not reading between the lines; that's called making rationalizations without any evidence in order to perpetuate your preconceived notions and protect your fragile ego.

 

[Mjolner]

That's not reading between the lines; that's called making rationalizations without any evidence in order to perpetuate your preconceived notions and protect your fragile ego.

I think to a certain extent you're right. However, there is some self selection going on by most DOs towards primary care specialties which makes it look like that's mostly what's available. Many ACGME specialties are available for DOs, they're just a little harder to do since the trail hasn't been as thoroughly blazed.

That being said, if you think this is why you only see a NS or Ortho or Derm ACGME match EXTREMELY rarely if ever--you're wrong.

Tl;dr technically all things are possible, but don't hold your breath.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I think to a certain extent you're right. However, there is some self selection going on by most DOs towards primary care specialties which makes it look like that's mostly what's available. Many ACGME specialties are available for DOs, they're just a little harder to do since the trail hasn't been as thoroughly blazed.

That being said, if you think this is why you only see a NS or Ortho or Derm ACGME match EXTREMELY rarely if ever--you're wrong.

Tl;dr technically all things are possible, but don't hold your breath.

We also have to remember that their are tiers even in primary care specialties. So quality in matching can possibly be seen even in DO schools. I am one of those that still believes the gap between DO and MD is decreasing. However, in the end, DO will not be held to the same regard as the vast majority of MD schools. There are tiers even among MD schools and this serves to weed out the elites at the upper echelon. Even if all DO schools were to become MD schools, there will still be bias (just less of it).

 

[deleted564680]

Honestly, that's definitely true. If you take the top 10ish DO schools (original 5 + public ones like MSU, OSU, etc.) you can probably start around low to mid-tier of MD schools and go down from there but the bottom 10ish schools being all DO. The biggest difference between DO schools and DO students is that the MD side has an upper tier of extremely high universities and students. DOs don't have a WashU, Harvard, etc. If you took out the top 15 or so med schools on the MD side, then stats for MD and DO schools (MCAT and GPA) would be very similar.

 

[jw3600]

That's not reading between the lines; that's called making rationalizations without any evidence in order to perpetuate your preconceived notions and protect your fragile ego.

Isn't that one of the tenets of osteopathy?

 

[Higherprimate]

.

 

[zero0]

It appears at this point that a lot of AOA ophtho, derm, neurosurgery, ENT, and ortho programs will not survive but hey, miracles happen.

I remember reading somewhere that those DO programs will be allowed to exist for 5 years [I think] following the merger, but will ultimately be shut down if they can't meet standards. So people matching ortho in 2020, derm in 2021, IM in 2022, etc. will still be able to finish.

 

[user3]

If you took out the top 15 or so med schools on the MD side, then stats for MD and DO schools (MCAT and GPA) would be very similar.

disagree.

 

[TwinsFan]

If you took out the top 15 or so med schools on the MD side, then stats for MD and DO schools (MCAT and GPA) would be very similar.

I know and have worked for some amazing DOs, would have been proud to be one; that being said...

You couldn't take the bottom 15 MD schools and have the same stats as DO (3.5/27) as pretty much PR, HBCs, and a few other mission oriented schools are the only ones that may have averages that are sub 3.6/30.

 

[Mjolner]

I know and have worked for some amazing DOs, would have been proud to be one; that being said...

You couldn't take the bottom 15 MD schools and have the same stats as DO (3.5/27) as pretty much PR, HBCs, and a few other mission oriented schools are the only ones that may have averages that are sub 3.6/30.

The bottom end MD school and the top end DO schools numbers are very close, but the bottom end DO schools are significantly lower than the bottom end MD.

In 10 years there will be less difference, I think. DO school number shave been rising faster than MD schools, however DO expansion could counter rising standards. Put them all under one accrediting organization and they'll have the same numbers fast.

 

[user3]

The bottom end MD school and the top end DO schools numbers are very close, but the bottom end DO schools are significantly lower than the bottom end MD.

In 10 years there will be less difference, I think. DO school number shave been rising faster than MD schools, however DO expansion could counter rising standards. Put them all under one accrediting organization and they'll have the same numbers fast.

I know and have worked for some amazing DOs, would have been proud to be one; that being said...

You couldn't take the bottom 15 MD schools and have the same stats as DO (3.5/27) as pretty much PR, HBCs, and a few other mission oriented schools are the only ones that may have averages that are sub 3.6/30.

Yup. Even at established DO schools, tons of people are still getting in with average grades/mid 20's MCATs. I applaud schools like Touro-Ca that seem actively trying to reach low-tier MD averages.

 

[acapnial]

Yup. Even at established DO schools, tons of people are still getting in with average grades/mid 20's MCATs. I applaud schools like Touro-Ca that seem actively trying to reach low-tier MD averages.

Nothing nobler than chasing MCAT scores

 

[user3]

Nothing nobler than chasing MCAT scores

lower averages, especially MCAT's, give off the impression that our schools are easy to get into and/or offer a less rigorous education, and that just doesn't sit well with me. Yes, that impression may be erroneous, but it exists, like it or not.

and how come people will often make light of these metrics, but then brag later when their school sets new records for entrance averages? seems hypocritical.

 

[acapnial]

lower averages, especially MCAT's, give off the impression that our schools are easy to get into and/or offer a less rigorous education, and that just doesn't sit well with me. Yes, that impression may be erroneous, but it exists, like it or not.

and how come people will often make light of these metrics, but then brag later when their school sets new records for entrance averages? seems hypocritical.

In terms of reputation nothing beats people's boots on the ground impression of you as a clinician. If the osteopathic profession was flooded with people who aren't empathetic, can't keep cool in stressful scenarios, can't apply critical reasoning to clinical scenarios, can't get along with others, but CAN manage the studying involved in a big test like the MCAT, it wouldn't do much for our professional image.

I think a school's average matriculant MCAT is a weird thing to brag about.

 

[IsWhat]

Yup. Even at established DO schools, tons of people are still getting in with average grades/mid 20's MCATs. I applaud schools like Touro-Ca that seem actively trying to reach low-tier MD averages.

Physicians have some of the highest rates of depression and lowest job satisfaction in the professional world. Maybe instead of applauding schools pursuing a high MCAT/GPA candidate with a couple of shadowing experiences, we should applaud schools who actively seek candidates who have proven they know what the medical field is like through significant paid healthcare experience?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yup. Even at established DO schools, tons of people are still getting in with average grades/mid 20's MCATs. I applaud schools like Touro-Ca that seem actively trying to reach low-tier MD averages.

Actively trying?.... I don't want to state the largest reason for their numbers, but you think they are doing something different from other DO schools that are non-misson based?

 

[NontradCA]

Nothing nobler than chasing MCAT scores

 

[thepoopologist]

Say you have an above average, but not exceptional DO graduate who scored 250 on Step 1 and 255 on Step 2. Ranked in the top 1/4 of his class but without anything else outstanding.

Which residencies would be entirely out of reach?

Which ones would be still extremely difficult to get into?

Wondering most about Dermatology and Ophthalmology.

A DO student/graduate with those stats is exceptional. A DO student with those stats who befriends and/or impresses the right people, does the right rotations, and puts together a reasonable rank list can get into either.

 

[MattSmith45]

In terms of reputation nothing beats people's boots on the ground impression of you as a clinician. If the osteopathic profession was flooded with people who aren't empathetic, can't keep cool in stressful scenarios, can't apply critical reasoning to clinical scenarios, can't get along with others, but CAN manage the studying involved in a big test like the MCAT, it wouldn't do much for our professional image.

I think a school's average matriculant MCAT is a weird thing to brag about.

People need to stop obsessing over MCAT scores (this is NOT pre allo/osteo)! I go to the DO school with the highest matriculant MCAT average (I think) Honestly, it's just about how hard you work -- your skills for the MCAT don't translate to pre clinical years. Maybe they help on the boards, who knows.

There are plenty of people who scored <30 on the MCAT that are kicking my butt in school. And I did well on the MCAT. Med school is a whole different ball game.

 

[the argus]

if only there were some magical document that showed the percentage of matches in each field by applicant degree. That would be really helpful to this conversation. Wait a minute, that document does exist!!!

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf
https://www.sfmatch.org/SpecialtyInsideAll.aspx?id=6&typ=2&name=Ophthalmology#

 

[Mjolner]

if only there were some magical document that showed the percentage of matches in each field by applicant degree. That would be really helpful to this conversation. Wait a minute, that document does exist!!!

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf
https://www.sfmatch.org/SpecialtyInsideAll.aspx?id=6&typ=2&name=Ophthalmology#

How did medicine-neurology not have any matches when two people applied? I'm assuming the program didn't rank either of them?

 

[IslandStyle808]

if only there were some magical document that showed the percentage of matches in each field by applicant degree. That would be really helpful to this conversation. Wait a minute, that document does exist!!!

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf
https://www.sfmatch.org/SpecialtyInsideAll.aspx?id=6&typ=2&name=Ophthalmology#

But they don't show osteopathic student percentages for each specialty?...