How do electrochemical reactions turn into thought?

[indya]

How do electrochemical reactions turn into images, thoughts, etc. I'm pretty sure that no one knows the answer to this question. Every where I look, there are only vague explanations. If there is an answer to this, can someone explain it simply? If not, is thee research being done to find out how this happens? And, I was thinking, if one day, the answer to this question is discovered, will that mark the beginning of the merger between psychiatry and neurology? Also, if we don't know, it seems like we are missing a huge (99%) part of how the brain works.

Please reply soon! Thanks.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[marqaha]

Electrochemical events ARE thoughts! They don't lead to thoughts. When you have a thought, many electrochemical events are happening. Since I don't really have a scientific answer for your question (and I doubt anyone does), I'll pose two fun questions:

Which came first the electrochemical event or the thought?

Prior to a thought, how is the thought/electrochemical event initiated?


I am interested to here what other have to say.

 

[typhoonegator]

What do you mean by "thought"?

Are you asking about the origin of consciousness? Are you surprised that we don't yet understand how the most complicated thing in the known universe works?

Personally, I subscribe to swarm theory. You need a critical mass of self-organizing interconnected nodes. We think of our brain as "centralized", but in fact, it is a distributed, decentralized system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarm_intelligence

 

[marqaha]

Thanks for the link on Swarm intelligence. It was pretty interesting.

I'll clarify what I mean by "thought" in this question. I mean spontaneous, seemingly self-generated, activity that is not directly related to sensory input. What happens at the molecular level just prior to when you direct your consciousness to a specific thought?

Example: Let's say that you are sitting with some time to ponder and you start to think about the detrimental effects of the Gulf oil spill.

In the model of swarm intelligence, what would be the molecular correlates of "interconnecting nodes" self-organizing?

 

[BlackFrancis33]

Great post. There have been interesting publications on the anatomy of consciousness recently in patients in persistent vegetative state. The precuneus (medial occipital-parietal region) shows a different pattern of activation in these patients. The precuneus may 'gate' consciousness somehow or another. Interesting stuff.

My favorite writing on this subject is by Sir Francis Crick (of Watson and Crick) on the Claustrum. Nobody knows what this gray matter structure does, it can't be isolated, it can't be lesioned, it contains neurons that connect distant parts of the brain. One of Crick's theory is that it may be one of the neuroanatomic substrates of consciousness connecting brain and mind.

 

[123med321]

Are you surprised that we don't yet understand how the most complicated thing in the known universe works?

I mean, there is so much room for advancement in neurology and neurosciences in general! Thanks for all the replies everyone.

 

[Kaiv Man]

How is it that permeable bags of fluid (i.e. neurons) with ions moving in and out of its membranes can lead to consciousness? I'm confident that we know and will know so much more of the correlations between neuronal events and conscious events (perceptions, thoughts, memories) , but it is the how that bothers me so much. For example, I can understand how something as complex as a diamond is made by simply understanding the principles governing the interaction between individual carbon atoms. However, one cannot even come close to understanding how conscious events are created based on the principles governing individual neurons or neuronal arrays.

Also, why is that a given set of neurons leads to lets say the perception we call "blue" and yet another set leads to the perception we call "the smell of garlic"? What properties does one set of interacting neurons have that the other doesn't which allows them to create "blue" as opposed to lets say "red"? We still have no scientific theory for the mind/body problem, and the way I see it, we will significantly advance our understanding of the correlations of brain and mind but I am pessimistic about understanding the causative mechanisms.

 

[guj]

How do you know that blue is blue and how does garlic taste? Actually you were taught about these associations when you were growing up, and the neurons stimulated at that time of learning have made synaptic memory of that association, so whenever you see blue you brain just process that information to look for any previous stored information and bingo you see blue ocean and can enjoy your cheese garlic sandwich!!!

How thoughts and consciousness are generated is a lot more complex. Just my 2 cents.

 

[bluntdissector]

Great post. There have been interesting publications on the anatomy of consciousness recently in patients in persistent vegetative state. The precuneus (medial occipital-parietal region) shows a different pattern of activation in these patients. The precuneus may 'gate' consciousness somehow or another. Interesting stuff.

My favorite writing on this subject is by Sir Francis Crick (of Watson and Crick) on the Claustrum. Nobody knows what this gray matter structure does, it can't be isolated, it can't be lesioned, it contains neurons that connect distant parts of the brain. One of Crick's theory is that it may be one of the neuroanatomic substrates of consciousness connecting brain and mind.

I realise that I am shamelessly re-hashing one of Dennett's main criticisms of these kinds of theories, but it seems as if you subscribe to Cartesian Materialism, which, some say, is really only a (slightly) more intellectually acceptable form of 'dualism'.

(Instead of everything getting 'dumped' into the pineal gland and moving to the 'mind', everything gets dumped at this particular spot in the brain, where...what exactly happens? Someone watches the show?)

Of course, there are esteemed thinkers on all sides, be it Multiple Drafts or Global Workspace or Cartesian Materialism. I was just wondering what Crick thought actually happens at the Claustrum...

 

[BlackFrancis33]

Personally, I am not interested in dualism or mind/body BS etc. I do think Crick's writing is interesting as are the other theories of consciousness. I am not a thought leader so my understanding of these theories in a deeper philosophical sense is definitely lacking. As a clinician and at best an armchair neuroscientist, learning the neuroanatomy (or proposed neuroanatomy) of consciousness is very interesting. The claustrum and precuneus are interesting because lots of stuff does get 'dumped' or 'passes' throught these regions. Whether the Claustrum is truly the Cartesian theatre linking brain and mind, or if what that really even means is beyond the capacity of my own multi-modal cortical regions.

 

[sovos]

bump?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind