How do med Schools evaluate GPA from different majors?

[Kiroro]

Hi everyone,

I?m new to the forum and I really enjoy reading the useful threads here.

I have a question that has been bothering me for a long time. I wish you guys could give me some feedback.

The question is if med schools consider applicants? GPA with respect to their majors or not? That is do they consider certain GPA (say 3.80) from all the majors as equally competitive?

I am an engineering major student and I?ll be senior next semester. My overall GPA is 4.0 and I worked really hard for this. In my university all the engineering majors has to take about 3 to 4 more classes than liberal arts and science majors and premed classes such as bio, organic chem, and bio chem are not considered as electives toward engineering major so all of them have to be taken as extra classes.

As many people know, engineering classes are a lot tougher than other majors. But I hear some people say med schools only consider the GPA, but don?t care about which major was that GPA earned from. I think this is very unfair because I am sure that I would be able to obtain the same GPA much easier if I had majored in say business, psychology, nutrition, or biological sciences (no offence to people in these majors).

Does any body know if med schools really don?t care about which major the GPA is from, or they take in the difficulties of majors in to account?

thanks

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[constructor]

all of what you say is right, but medical schools don't give any one major more weight than another or consider the fact that engineering is more difficult than most majors. their attitude is you made the choice, so you should be able to get a 4.0 as easily as a psych major who gets a 4.0, which of course is a ridiculous and completely flawed premise, but we engineers just gotta suck it up and deal with it. besides, you have a 4.0 so you shouldn't really be worried about anything.. the borderline cases are where it tends to hurt. i think a lot of medical schools are tired of bio majors, so if you're a bio major you probably have lots of competition because bio is the vanilla flavor among majors in preparation for medical school.

 

[derf]

all of what you say is right, but medical schools don't give any one major more weight than another or consider the fact that engineering is more difficult than most majors. their attitude is you made the choice, so you should be able to get a 4.0 as easily as a psych major who gets a 4.0, which of course is a ridiculous and completely flawed premise, but we engineers just gotta suck it up and deal with it. besides, you have a 4.0 so you shouldn't really be worried about anything.. the borderline cases are where it tends to hurt. i think a lot of medical schools are tired of bio majors, so if you're a bio major you probably have lots of competition because bio is the vanilla flavor among majors in preparation for medical school.

actually, some schools do, in fact, clearly state that they consider the difficulty of your major during evaluation. That's not to say that they "prefer" any major over another (as we certainly know is not the case, haha), but some schools do subjectively consider the difficulty of a major, but definitely not objectively.

 

[Kiroro]

Thank you for the quick reply
Well that really sucks. I guess my pre-med advisor was right, he told me the similar thing as you.
The problem is that I have to take MCAT next April and for both Fall and Spring semester I?ve got to take some tough senior level engineering classes. I?m really worried that I would perform badly in those classes or affecting the time to prepare for the MCAT
I have friends in psychology, health science, and nutrition majors and they said their classes are like joke now because they are done with the pre-med classes. I really envy them and kinda regret that I chose engineering major.
By the way, I heard that med-schools do check about how many science courses you take each semester to assess the rigorousness of your study load. If so, don?t they consider that taking only science and engineering courses in a semester as more competitive?
Sorry if I am not making sense?.

 

[jeffsleepy]

I think it's somewhat fair. It's not like the psychology major can get a 4.3 to show that they're better than the 4.0 engineering major. A 4.0 is a 4.0. You should be able to major in whatever you want without having a disadvantage in the admissions process. Also, everyone has different strengths. I for one, would much rather be an engineering major than an English major.


short version: Man up!

 

[Kiroro]

I think it's somewhat fair. It's not like the psychology major can get a 4.3 to show that they're better than the 4.0 engineering major. A 4.0 is a 4.0. You should be able to major in whatever you want without having a disadvantage in the admissions process. Also, everyone has different strengths. I for one, would much rather be an engineering major than an English major.


short version: Man up!

I understand what you mean Jeffsleepy
To be honest, I picked engineering not because I like it but mainly because I thought a good GPA in engineering would impress med schools' admissions.
I was gonna go for Bio or Chem major because they are closer to premed required classes but I thought that may seem too common, and less challenging.
Also I was afraid if I pick psychology, humanities, or English major, it would make me look like I just wanted a easy way to earn high GPA.
Now that I think about it, I guess I put too many thoughts into it.
But do you really think many premed students choose bio, psych, even business major just because they like it and not for other factors like "easy high GPA" ?

 

[constructor]

Thank you for the quick reply
Well that really sucks. I guess my pre-med advisor was right, he told me the similar thing as you.
The problem is that I have to take MCAT next April and for both Fall and Spring semester I?ve got to take some tough senior level engineering classes. I?m really worried that I would perform badly in those classes or affecting the time to prepare for the MCAT
I have friends in psychology, health science, and nutrition majors and they said their classes are like joke now because they are done with the pre-med classes. I really envy them and kinda regret that I chose engineering major.
By the way, I heard that med-schools do check about how many science courses you take each semester to assess the rigorousness of your study load. If so, don?t they consider that taking only science and engineering courses in a semester as more competitive?
Sorry if I am not making sense?.

engineering courses unfortunately don't count as science according to amcas, so they wouldn't be considered a more heavy workload as suggested by the rumors you heard... yeah, i know...

amcas is stupid and pathetic in lots of ways (especially for non-traditional pre-meds), and i learned a lot of things while applying that i wish i had known two years ago. i would encourage you to maybe take more time and spread out the difficult courses over many quarters to make it manageable because you just don't wanna screw up by taking too many difficult classes. i know what you mean - it's very easy to do it when you're doing your bio core and engineering core stuff at the same time, so plan carefully and try to get the best grades you can.

 

[smallqt]

I dunno major has got to count for something. I mean I saw on here that Biomedical Engineers have the highest acceptance rate....so maybe they do consider it....

 

[tinkerbelle]

engineering courses unfortunately don't count as science according to amcas, so they wouldn't be considered a more heavy workload as suggested by the rumors you heard... yeah, i know...

Actually, almost all my biomedical engineering/material science courses were counted in my BCPM gpa. I think as long as you can justify why you're including stuff like "Mechanical Properties of Materials" or "Signals and Systems" or "Biomed Engr Design Team" as a physics class, then it's ok.

 

[constructor]

my computer science courses and biomedical informatics courses didn't count although i marked them down as "bcpm".. i mean it is computer SCIENCE, isn't it? and it is BIOmedical informatics, right? i hate AMCAS soooo much... i like how it comes down to a bunch of clerks and "transcript experts" who went to junior college deciding what happens with my GPA...

i think the reason biomedical engineers have a high acceptance rate (if it's indeed true) is because they are generally pretty intelligent and do very well on the MCAT, so even with an average GPA they are able to get interviews and after that point it's easy to impress the adcom with their unique qualities.

 

[aparecida]

Schools consider the difficulty of your courses, not the difficulty of your "major." You can have a REALLY difficult English major, or a really easy one. Engineering majors are usually difficult by definition. But if you have, say, a psych major, they will understand that taking a lot of higher-level classes and getting a 3.5 may be equivalent to taking the bare minimum and getting a 4.0.

 

[fiddler]

i would think that they do, otherwise why bother with BCPM?

so don't worry about it.

If i had to guess, they would take a 3.4 BCPM over a 3.0 BCPM because the first person would show that they have more aptitude for science. a huge part of medicine is about science after all otherwise we could apply without bothering with science courses.

fiddler

 

[Jeffy]

I love the fact that the engineering threads relating to GPA pop up on about a once a month basis on this forum. I ain't an engineering person and can actually care less about the plight of whoever would major in it only to eventually apply to medical school (wtf?). However, I can't stand the fact that your undergrad doesn't become much of a factor in admissions so I guess I can relate. Good luck guys.

 

[constructor]

yeah, seriously jeffy... that's something i've been wondering about as well. why don't people who go to the top undergrad institutions get the love they deserve? a couple of my friends with around a 3.4 didn't get into any medical schools last year in spite of the reputation of our school, and i know that they are more intelligent and mature than many medical students in the country. hey, i wouldn't have come here and paid 40 grand a year if i knew it wasn't worth jack...

 

[constructor]

btw, jeffy... if we weren't supposed to eat humans, then why are they made out of meat???

 

[uclabruin2003]

Schools consider the difficulty of your courses, not the difficulty of your "major." You can have a REALLY difficult English major, or a really easy one. Engineering majors are usually difficult by definition. But if you have, say, a psych major, they will understand that taking a lot of higher-level classes and getting a 3.5 may be equivalent to taking the bare minimum and getting a 4.0.

that is ridiculous....how would the ad coms know what classes are easy versus hard? english 105 could be harder than 107 but how would they know? its like they ask for your syllabus. im assuming adcoms take your major into account some how....how they do it im sure depends upon every school...

 

[constructor]

that is ridiculous....how would the ad coms know what classes are easy versus hard? english 105 could be harder than 107 but how would they know? its like they ask for your syllabus. im assuming adcoms take your major into account some how....how they do it im sure depends upon every school...

yeah, they definitely don't care whether you took the easy road or the tough road through a major... get real!

 

[Jeffy]

yeah, seriously jeffy... that's something i've been wondering about as well. why don't people who go to the top undergrad institutions get the love they deserve? a couple of my friends with around a 3.4 didn't get into any medical schools last year in spite of the reputation of our school, and i know that they are more intelligent and mature than many medical students in the country. hey, i wouldn't have come here and paid 40 grand a year if i knew it wasn't worth jack...

not to derail this thread or even get into this much debated topic, but yeah it sucks. i have so many ******ed donkey-phuq friends that got 4.0's at cal state's. some of them will probably eventually get into a medical school because of it. if i had to, i'd compare a 4.0 at one of those schools with a 3.0 at a top undergrad based on what i know.

And by the way, i think cannibalism is ok for survival, if that helps. I'm sure my @ss tastes like flank steak.

 

[aparecida]

that is ridiculous....how would the ad coms know what classes are easy versus hard? english 105 could be harder than 107 but how would they know? its like they ask for your syllabus. im assuming adcoms take your major into account some how....how they do it im sure depends upon every school...

At my school, a liberal arts major requires a large number of student-selected courses from the department or related departments, which may be 300 (junior+), 400 (senior), or 500 (senior/graduate) level. With, say, a sociology major, you can take the easy way and take all 300s except for the minimum required 400s and 500s, or you can take almost all of your elective sociology at the 500 level. While it may not be apparent from your transcript whether SOC 342 was harder than SOC 331, SOC 530 is certainly much more difficult. I have attended two other undergraduate institutions and it was the same at both of them.

The difficulty of the courses you choose to take within your major, at least for humanities and social sciences, reflects the degree to which you are willing to challenge yourself. Of course adcoms care about this, just as they care whether you do the bare minimum or go above-and-beyond in any other area of your life.

 

[dmoney41]

I have attended two other undergraduate institutions and it was the same at both of them.

And at my school some departments broke down numberings by subject (non-intro Ethical Philosophy courses were from PHIL 1100-1200) while biology had numberings that were purely random except for whether or not they were over BIO 900. I think it's complete wishful thinking to assume that they're going to spend days pondering whether "Sociology of Youth" was harder than "Roles of Wealth in Sociology". I really just haven't seen any evidence that they care much about transcripts after GPA and BCPM GPA and to a much smaller degree major.

And as for the guy who took engineering solely because he thought it would impress med schools. Ahahahahaha. You spent years studying thermodynamics and couldn't spend twenty seconds on a google search? Whoops.

 

[bewitched1081]

im not so sure that some majors are generally more difficult than others. some people are just suited for one subject matter or another. my lab partner last year was an engineering major, but she could not for the life of her properly use a micropipette. she was intelligent enough to be a senior in engineering but for some reason she just didnt understand molecular bio concepts. another of my friends was good as a bio major, but didnt do well in psych.

 

[constructor]

At my school, a liberal arts major requires a large number of student-selected courses from the department or related departments, which may be 300 (junior+), 400 (senior), or 500 (senior/graduate) level. With, say, a sociology major, you can take the easy way and take all 300s except for the minimum required 400s and 500s, or you can take almost all of your elective sociology at the 500 level. While it may not be apparent from your transcript whether SOC 342 was harder than SOC 331, SOC 530 is certainly much more difficult. I have attended two other undergraduate institutions and it was the same at both of them.

The difficulty of the courses you choose to take within your major, at least for humanities and social sciences, reflects the degree to which you are willing to challenge yourself. Of course adcoms care about this, just as they care whether you do the bare minimum or go above-and-beyond in any other area of your life.

yes, but they don't have information about whether one class in your major is more difficult than another. bigger numbers do not always mean more difficult at my school.

 

[constructor]

im not so sure that some majors are generally more difficult than others. some people are just suited for one subject matter or another. my lab partner last year was an engineering major, but she could not for the life of her properly use a micropipette. she was intelligent enough to be a senior in engineering but for some reason she just didnt understand molecular bio concepts. another of my friends was good as a bio major, but didnt do well in psych.

what you say is true, but they're based on a very limited sample of observations. at my school, i don't know of any engineer who has trouble with molecular biology because if you have the balls to do engineering at my school you had better be able to handle some pretty intense material. biology is not that challenging if you're not doing research because it's basic memorization and simple application of concepts. however, in engineering the application of concepts is much more challenging even at a strictly academic, non-research level. i think that's the basic difference between engineering, physics, and to some extent chemistry and all of the other majors.

if you want to look at what the general patterns are, you should look at amcas data on how different majors do on the MCAT and the bcpm and overall gpa's. you'll see that the data contradicts your specific experience with your lab partner. amcas actually doesn't have all of the majors listed (i don't think they list engineering but have math and statistics), but there are other agencies that collect this kind of data and you can see general patterns in them (google search it).

 

[Gerg]

Engineers Rock!

Of the people in my chemical engineering class who applied to medical school (we went to a state school), 100% got into medical school. (of course, there were only 3 of us).

Kiroro, as for your worrying that you won't have time to study for the MCAT, eh don't.

Worry, that is.

Talk to your advisors, to some recent graduates of your program (half of 'em will be at the bars 5 nights a week because they went into the MBA program at your school after they graduated), and talk to the faculty in charge of your design classes.

Everybody knows that in your 4th year of engineering, you have two duties: classes, and getting the rest of your life set up.

The latter is interpreted as getting a job in industry for most people, but for you, it can be interpreted as getting into a medical school. You should have plenty of time to do either of these, if you don't join all of those recent graduates who are getting their MBAs (and having the time of their lives).

Just pretend that every day is like the day before a test, and you should be able to find plenty of time to get all of your work done, and have plenty of time to study for the MCAT.

Ya know... IMHO, the MCAT is kinda cool. Either you'll do well on it, or you won't. If you've taken med school pre-reqs, and you're decent at retaining knowledge, it's a no-brainer. Can you remember and apply newton's laws? Can you remember the definition of a refractive index with respect to angles of incidence? Do you remember your basic enzymes from Genetics?

I doubt (although they could put it on there) that you'll be asked to solve a problem that starts off with "Assume you have a single harmonic osscilator in a one-dimensional box with the following parameters...."

Relax, enjoy your senior year, and take some time to retouch all of the basic stuff from physics, chemistry, biology, genetics, ect. Oh, and get some of those practice essays to work on your writing (I know engineers), and read some passages to work on your verbal reasoning stuff.

 

[dmk724]

To be honest, I picked engineering not because I like it but mainly because I thought a good GPA in engineering would impress med schools' admissions.
I was gonna go for Bio or Chem major because they are closer to premed required classes but I thought that may seem too common, and less challenging.

Honestly, I don't think that your major matters that much. Some of the things that I think that med schools nowadays are looking for is depth of commitment to medicine, ability to show empathy and compassion, and communication skills - i.e., the stuff that they can't teach you.

Also I was afraid if I pick psychology, humanities, or English major, it would make me look like I just wanted a easy way to earn high GPA.
Now that I think about it, I guess I put too many thoughts into it.

Trust me, there are easier ways of getting a high GPA than being a psych, anthro, or English major. I was a history major, and there's nothing easy or fun about staying up until 4 AM slogging through 17th century English texts about political sovereignty. (It's even more entertaining when they're photocopies of the original texts, and all the "s"s look like "f"s.)

But do you really think many premed students choose bio, psych, even business major just because they like it and not for other factors like "easy high GPA" ?

And, yes, I chose to be a history major because I actually liked it, not because I thought that it would guarantee me a high GPA.

Basically, I don't think that med schools care only about your major or only about your GPA. They really do care about a whole spectrum of things - MCAT, how passionate you are about the things that you did in college, how enthusiastic you are about medicine, how meaningful your volunteer experiences were to you, how well your philosophy about medicine meshes with the school's mission statement, etc. There isn't just one thing that they look at - it's a whole bunch of stuff.

Good luck with the process, and I hope that you're able to find the time to have some fun in college!

 

[dmoney41]

if you want to look at what the general patterns are, you should look at amcas data on how different majors do on the MCAT and the bcpm and overall gpa's. you'll see that the data contradicts your specific experience with your lab partner.

I don't think engineers would have problems with biological sciences, no, except for the rare person who can problem-solve well but has no ability to memorize. Verbal, however ... well, I've seen plenty of engineers who could solve complex, high level math/eng problems that I couldn't even begin to solve, but their attempts at lab reports would have been more appropriate had they been written in purple crayon and graded via the "one, two, or three gold stars" scale.

 

[dmk724]

Oh, and get some of those practice essays to work on your writing (I know engineers), and read some passages to work on your verbal reasoning stuff.

You know, I think that this one of the two times in the medical school application process that your major makes a difference - which section of the MCAT is easiest for you depends on your major (at least partly). Like I said, being a humanities major made the verbal section pretty easy - I finished with a lot of time to spare. Of course, I was sweating like crazy over the physical sciences section, but, hey, it was a fair enough trade off.

The other time is LORs - if a medical school dictates that you MUST have a letter from a humanities professor, and you were a bio major, you might have to pray that your "Intro to Shakespeare" professor remembers you. Otherwise, I don't think that your major matters all that much. What's important is that you work hard at whatever you do study.

 

[coincidental]

The information passed on to me by a Med AdCom member is that major only comes into play in a tie.

Say, they have one slot and two canidates (yeah, I know, more like one slot and six canidates), these canidates have made it through screens. They have virtually the same GPA and MCATs. They have all demonstrated compassion blah blah blah. Both would make good med students and the school would be happy to have them....if they had more slots. One of them in an engineer, the other is a humanities student. The engineer gets the slot. So, basically, I was told that the engineer, whose major is more difficult, will be favored when all else is equal.

Otherwise, no. It doesn't matter. A 3.5 in engineering does not equal a 3.8 in humanities.

And for the record, I'm an engineer with an 11 on verbal that I barely had to study for. I did a few Kaplan passages, nothing more. Nifty, huh?

 

[Gerg]

That's awesome about your verbal.

For me, I was happy to get 2 gold stars on my senior design report.

 

[45408]

i think a lot of medical schools are tired of bio majors, so if you're a bio major you probably have lots of competition because bio is the vanilla flavor among majors in preparation for medical school.

Not really. The MSAR has shown that biological science majors consistently make up between 56-58% of the incoming class, with another ~10% going to the physical sciences.

 

[constructor]

Not really. The MSAR has shown that biological science majors consistently make up between 56-58% of the incoming class, with another ~10% going to the physical sciences.

go back and read what i said... i never said bio majors don't comprise the majority of the class... i only said that there are soooo many of them that the competition to get in is really tough, which has nothing to do with what the percent composition of bio majors is in an incoming class.

 

[Arashii]

when it comes down to it, you HAVE to do engineerng because you love it....there's no way I would voluntarily stay up analyizing control systems if I wasn't at least interested in it...that being said, I think that majoring in engineering just so med schools are impressed is crap. What seems like an 'easy in' turns into long nights slogging away and hating your other pre-med friends. I think that being an engineer IS an advantage, however, to being a good physician cause we got the analytical and spatial abilities that some people haven't developed yet. I've found that it's good to bring that up during "strength/weaknesses" questions or in essays....if they're not going to recognize the difficulty of learning about transient heat transfer then we'll have to spell it out for them.

 

[coincidental]

That's awesome about your verbal.

For me, I was happy to get 2 gold stars on my senior design report.

whoa. sorry. I didn't mean to..okay, well maybe I did a little. I just get a little tired of people assuming engineers are automatically poor speakers and writers (for lack of a better phrase). Sure, some of us are, but we all aren't.

If it makes you feel any better I got an M on the writing sample (econ prompt...I was doomed.)

 

[Gerg]

I wasn't trying to imply you did anything wrong. I just like gold stars.

And seriously.. good job that's a respectable score. I didn't take any offense.. please don't think I did.

 

[skhichi]

well, what I've read in the past is that medical schools, the top ones at least, sometimes employ a GPA conversion factor at least when dealing with different undergraduate institutions. It is conceivable that they would do this with majors as well. Though you could major in anything and go to medical schools some majors are considerably more difficult than others and medical schools know this. I would think that a 4.0GPA in physics or chemistry would be more impressive than a 4.0 in comparative literature.

 

[Kiroro]

well, what I've read in the past is that medical schools, the top ones at least, sometimes employ a GPA conversion factor at least when dealing with different undergraduate institutions. It is conceivable that they would do this with majors as well. Though you could major in anything and go to medical schools some majors are considerably more difficult than others and medical schools know this. I would think that a 4.0GPA in physics or chemistry would be more impressive than a 4.0 in comparative literature.

That's True. I thinks so too

 

[dnelsen]

I think that being an engineer IS an advantage, however, to being a good physician cause we got the analytical and spatial abilities that some people haven't developed yet...

Too bad you are all nerds with no social skills that cannot communicate with your patients

 

[SmoothER]

I don't think they have metrics designed to adjust for GPAs from different majors. As a result, majoring in a humanities or social science field will probably be to your advantage. Humanities and social science majors actually have higher rates of acceptance to medical school as compared to biology majors. I found this particularly surprising because I thought that medical school admissions committees would adjust for difficulty of majors when they evaluate the applications. However, I don't think any medical schools have a metric specifically designed to adjust for the difficulty of particular majors. If they did, chemical engineering majors would most certainly have their GPAs boosted when compared against biology majors. I think another explanation for the higher rates of acceptance of humanities and social science majors is simply the rarity of these majors in the application process. It is really hard to find a comparitive literature major taking the MCAT. How many journalism majors do you know plan on attending medical school?

Also, humanities and social science majors have different extra-curricular activities than the standard biology major. Most of the economics majors I know have already had summer internships with Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc. I know some political science majors that have done relief work in Afghanistan and other wartorn nations. I really think differentiating yourself from the applicant pool can be your strongest asset when applying to medical school. I'm not in any trying to belittle biology degrees nor am I trying to say that biology majors are weaker applicants than humanities and social science majors. I'm just trying to say that majoring in a field other than biology will help to differentiate you from the legions of applicants out there who will be applying with the same classes on their transcript, hospital volunteering, etc.

 

[blz]

Why would you suffer through something like engineering if you're not gonna be an engineer when you're all done (unless you're doing an MD/PhD)? My philosophy was to do well in school and OUT of school (ECs, research, social life, ect.). Why would I sacrifice my social life, ECs, and other activities I could do, just so I can pursue some major that won't do me any good. Get your 4.0 doing soemthing that will give you a lot of time to pursue other aspects of life. No GPA conversion factor will ever make up for great ECs and social well-being.

 

[DocMizzle]

Too bad you are all nerds with no social skills that cannot communicate with your patients

yeah, and pinocchio has metal balls

 

[DocMizzle]

Why would you suffer through something like engineering if you're not gonna be an engineer when you're all done (unless you're doing an MD/PhD)? My philosophy was to do well in school and OUT of school (ECs, research, social life, ect.). Why would I sacrifice my social life, ECs, and other activities I could do, just so I can pursue some major that won't do me any good. Get your 4.0 doing soemthing that will give you a lot of time to pursue other aspects of life. No GPA conversion factor will ever make up for great ECs and social well-being.

Hey now, don't make generalizations. I'm in chemical engineering, have top grades, and have a full social life while maintaining good EC's. All it takes is careful time management skills, something that ADCOMs look highly upon. And I didn't "suffer" through anything...believe it or not I found the theory interesting.

 

[dnelsen]

yeah, and pinocchio has metal balls

don't you mean bizalls?