How do some students have so many publications?

[Lunasly]

Hey guys,

I know that the way the school years are structured vary from school to school, especially since I am from Canada while you are in the U.S. The question I want to ask is: How do some medical students have so many publications?

As far as I know, this is how it works – and please correct me if I am wrong: The first opportunity that most medical students take to engage in research is during the summer between MS1 and MS2. Now that is great, but how many publications do most people get out of during research during this time. I mean, if you are treating it like a full time job (40 - 50 hours a week), what is the net result? 1 publication? 2 publications?

I have heard that people do research during the summer between MS2 and MS3. However, isn't it during the summer that you will be taking time off to study hard for Step I?

MS3 is hectic.

Not sure about MS4.

How the hell do some people have like 7 or 8 publications? It's crazy!

Thanks for the help,
Lunasly.

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[Law2Doc]

Hey guys,

I know that the way the school years are structured vary from school to school, especially since I am from Canada while you are in the U.S. The question I want to ask is: How do some medical students have so many publications?

As far as I know, this is how it works – and please correct me if I am wrong: The first opportunity that most medical students take to engage in research is during the summer between MS1 and MS2. Now that is great, but how many publications do most people get out of during research during this time. I mean, if you are treating it like a full time job (40 - 50 hours a week), what is the net result? 1 publication? 2 publications?

I have heard that people do research during the summer between MS2 and MS3. However, isn't it during the summer that you will be taking time off to study hard for Step I?

MS3 is hectic.

Not sure about MS4.

How the hell do some people have like 7 or 8 publications? It's crazy!

Thanks for the help,
Lunasly.

First, some people are able to devote a few hours toward research all 4 years. Second, some people take a year off to do research if they need it for a particular residency. Third, many people come into med school with a lot of research under their belts, some of which gets concluded and written up during early med school, finally, most people dont finish med school with more than a couple of new publications that originated during those years. 8 would be a lot.

 

[Lunasly]

Ah ok so what I saw then was just out of the norm. Here in Canada, we are not allowed to take a research year, so that is out of the question. I doubt I will have any publications (maybe a research poster – which isn;t even my own research, LOL) as I go to a very small school with not a lot of opportunity when it comes to that. I wonder if a few hours a week to devote to research is worth the small loss of study time – time which could mean getting an honours in the class or as pass.

What do you recommend?

 

[Law2Doc]

Ah ok so what I saw then was just out of the norm. Here in Canada, we are not allowed to take a research year, so that is out of the question. I doubt I will have any publications (maybe a research poster – which isn;t even my own research, LOL) as I go to a very small school with not a lot of opportunity when it comes to that. I wonder if a few hours a week to devote to research is worth the small loss of study time – time which could mean getting an honours in the class or as pass.

What do you recommend?

If you are shooting for one of the uber competitive fields in the US where everyone has research, you need research. If not, spend the time getting honors.

 

[bucks2010]

you think 7-8 is a lot.. I remember TexasPhysician saying (s)he racked up 20+ pubs in med school.

The key in their words was to do clinical research, not basic science.

also, something to remember is that while 7-8 actual papers would probably be quite a bit, 7-8 "publications" in ERAS might include posters, abstracts, etc. So maybe some people start a project, submit an abstract (1), poster (2), and then submit a paper for publication (3). Then they count all of those as "publications" on ERAS. Not sure if that's how a lot of people do it, but that is how I've seen it explained on here before.

 

[Lunasly]

Thanks. I messaged him back for some tips on how to make it happen. I think my school is switching over to P/F. We don't have AOA in Canada. We just have class rank where I think the top 10% receives an academic award or they win scholarships, lol.

Hopefully I can still get some scholarships.

 

[CatFactorial]

Would even having 7-8 basic sci publications as a middle author help? Wouldn't residency programs be able to tell that you were probably just a tech in a productive lab?

 

[drizzt3117]

That's not precisely how ERAS counts publications. There's different categories for each, programs evaluate them how they see fit. As far as how charting outcomes lists research experiences, an abstract that is presented as a poster or oral presentation counts as one research experience, not two. If you submit a manuscript on the same topic, it counts as a separate research experience. Abstracts do count, but those are ones that you are on but don't present, you don't double count them. I had > 30 pubs on eras, its not that uncommon.

you think 7-8 is a lot.. I remember TexasPhysician saying (s)he racked up 20+ pubs in med school.

The key in their words was to do clinical research, not basic science.

also, something to remember is that while 7-8 actual papers would probably be quite a bit, 7-8 "publications" in ERAS might include posters, abstracts, etc. So maybe some people start a project, submit an abstract (1), poster (2), and then submit a paper for publication (3). Then they count all of those as "publications" on ERAS. Not sure if that's how a lot of people do it, but that is how I've seen it explained on here before.

 

[Hemichordate]

That's not precisely how ERAS counts publications. There's different categories for each, programs evaluate them how they see fit. As far as how charting outcomes lists research experiences, an abstract that is presented as a poster or oral presentation counts as one research experience, not two. If you submit a manuscript on the same topic, it counts as a separate research experience. Abstracts do count, but those are ones that you are on but don't present, you don't double count them. I had > 30 pubs on eras, its not that uncommon.

How many pubs did you usually work on at any one time?

 

[Lunasly]

That's not precisely how ERAS counts publications. There's different categories for each, programs evaluate them how they see fit. As far as how charting outcomes lists research experiences, an abstract that is presented as a poster or oral presentation counts as one research experience, not two. If you submit a manuscript on the same topic, it counts as a separate research experience. Abstracts do count, but those are ones that you are on but don't present, you don't double count them. I had > 30 pubs on eras, its not that uncommon.

If you don't mind, would you please expand on how you were able to accomplish that?

 

[indonacious]

Do publications accomplished in medically relevant fields and in respected journals during undergrad and in the summer before medical school count in your residency application or do they become like high school accomplishments were when we were applying to med school (basically not helpful).

 

[drizzt3117]

How many pubs did you usually work on at any one time?

3-5

If you don't mind, would you please expand on how you were able to accomplish that?

Mostly hard work.

Do publications accomplished in medically relevant fields and in respected journals during undergrad and in the summer before medical school count in your residency application or do they become like high school accomplishments were when we were applying to med school (basically not helpful).

Generally not useful, but may not be scrutinized that carefully.

 

[Law2Doc]

Do publications accomplished in medically relevant fields and in respected journals during undergrad and in the summer before medical school count in your residency application or do they become like high school accomplishments were when we were applying to med school (basically not helpful).

They "count", but are weighted significantly less.

 

[Lunasly]

3-5



Mostly hard work.



Generally not useful, but may not be scrutinized that carefully.

Fair enough. At periods during medical school did you find time to do 3 - 5 projects? I understand that the summers are great for this and even during the end of 4th year. Did you do research during the academic year?

 

[drizzt3117]

Fair enough. At periods during medical school did you find time to do 3 - 5 projects? I understand that the summers are great for this and even during the end of 4th year. Did you do research during the academic year?

I was in lab about 20 hours a wk throughout med school.

 

[bassvp]

That's not precisely how ERAS counts publications. There's different categories for each, programs evaluate them how they see fit. As far as how charting outcomes lists research experiences, an abstract that is presented as a poster or oral presentation counts as one research experience, not two. If you submit a manuscript on the same topic, it counts as a separate research experience. Abstracts do count, but those are ones that you are on but don't present, you don't double count them. I had > 30 pubs on eras, its not that uncommon.

I understand I'm very far ahead of myself at this point, but is there a resource on ERAS that will show you what kinds of activities fit in each category or how they count your research experiences? Also, is there a good place to look at good residency CV's? I just want to know what directions I should be looking to create a good residency app and not be scratching my head senior year on how to get things together.

 

[Hemichordate]

I was in lab about 20 hours a wk throughout med school.

So you did basic science research and not clinical?

 

[Lunasly]

I was in lab about 20 hours a wk throughout med school.

Wow, very nice. I assume this was clinical volunteering? How did you find time to manage getting good grades and going to the lab? Did you grades suffer? Was your school just P/F? Did your preclinical grades not depend on whether you would receive junior AOA or not?

If I go to a school that does not have AOA and is P/F, but they do rank you (those in the top 10% of the class receive an award), do you think that my time would be better spent in the lab as opposed to trying to be in the top 10% of my class?

One other thing, did you start doing research prior to medical school? Did you do research within your first year?

 

[dragon529]

How many MS1s are already doing research during the year or are planning to? I'm trying to look for a lab where I can do clinical work but I'm afraid my grades (H/HP/P/F here..) will suffer.

 

[drizzt3117]

So you did basic science research and not clinical?

My research is in medical physics / radiology, so I would characterize it as translational.

Wow, very nice. I assume this was clinical volunteering? How did you find time to manage getting good grades and going to the lab? Did you grades suffer? Was your school just P/F? Did your preclinical grades not depend on whether you would receive junior AOA or not?[/quote

My school wasn't p/f. I honored every preclinical class and did well on the steps.

If I go to a school that does not have AOA and is P/F, but they do rank you (those in the top 10% of the class receive an award), do you think that my time would be better spent in the lab as opposed to trying to be in the top 10% of my class?

I would try to do both, if possible.

One other thing, did you start doing research prior to medical school? Did you do research
within your first year?

Yes, throughout implies in all four years. I did research before med school but not in the same group.

 

[drizzt3117]

I understand I'm very far ahead of myself at this point, but is there a resource on ERAS that will show you what kinds of activities fit in each category or how they count your research experiences? Also, is there a good place to look at good residency CV's? I just want to know what directions I should be looking to create a good residency app and not be scratching my head senior year on how to get things together.

The eras website is a good place to start.

 

[Phyozo]

How many MS1s are already doing research during the year or are planning to? I'm trying to look for a lab where I can do clinical work but I'm afraid my grades (H/HP/P/F here..) will suffer.

This is one of the biggest myths in preclinical years: Pre-clinical grades matter VERY LITTLE. The only caveat is that those who study and get honors tend to be better students/retain more information and tend to do better on the step 1 (which really is the ONLY thing that ends up mattering for M1/M2). I would gladly sacrifice all pre-clinical honors for the sake of pushing some publications out.

 

[Butler]

The eras website is a good place to start.

Did you have any fun in med school?

 

[equinsu ocha]

Did you have any fun in med school?

I would call honoring every pre-clinical, doing great on steps, and pushing out 30 pubs incredibly fun, but maybe I'm weird.

 

[drizzt3117]

Did you have any fun in med school?

I got to travel to 3 continents on the school's/NIHs dime and went out at least once a week even during m3, I'd say, yes.

 

[pkwraith]

I started doing research my MS1 year, after anatomy. Without anatomy labs, I find that there is a lot of free time. Instead of going to lecture, I just go into lab.

I'm doing basic science experiments, so there is a lot of downtime where you're just waiting for things to happen. Just kick off the experiment, watch my lecture podcasts while I'm waiting on different steps. I don't see MS2 year to be much different.

I'll probably be too tired during MS3 years to do experiments.

 

[Lunasly]

This is one of the biggest myths in preclinical years: Pre-clinical grades matter VERY LITTLE. The only caveat is that those who study and get honors tend to be better students/retain more information and tend to do better on the step 1 (which really is the ONLY thing that ends up mattering for M1/M2). I would gladly sacrifice all pre-clinical honors for the sake of pushing some publications out.

I heard that too. In Canada, we don't even have to write Step I (even though I will) and we don't have AOA. I think I will study to understand as opposed to trying to retain every minuscule detail and follow along with the Step I materials and use my time to get some publications out.

I know the previous poster said to try and do both (and I certainly will), I just don't think that is a realistic goal that I can meet and I am more than likely going to have to choose one or the other.

 

[Lunasly]

I started doing research my MS1 year, after anatomy. Without anatomy labs, I find that there is a lot of free time. Instead of going to lecture, I just go into lab.

I'm doing basic science experiments, so there is a lot of downtime where you're just waiting for things to happen. Just kick off the experiment, watch my lecture podcasts while I'm waiting on different steps. I don't see MS2 year to be much different.

I'll probably be too tired during MS3 years to do experiments.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Sheldor]

This is one of the biggest myths in preclinical years: Pre-clinical grades matter VERY LITTLE. The only caveat is that those who study and get honors tend to be better students/retain more information and tend to do better on the step 1 (which really is the ONLY thing that ends up mattering for M1/M2). I would gladly sacrifice all pre-clinical honors for the sake of pushing some publications out.

I believe one of the biggest myths is that they DONT matter. While it may be true that individual grades may not matter, taken as a whole they will matter a lot. They will inform your class rank and your chance to get AOA. So don't freak out if you get one HP/B, but as a whole try to do well.

Also, remember that no matter how much research you get while letting your grades suffer, someone will have the same amount with all honors.

 

[FIREitUP]

I believe one of the biggest myths is that they DONT matter. While it may be true that individual grades may not matter, taken as a whole they will matter a lot. They will inform your class rank and your chance to get AOA. So don't freak out if you get one HP/B, but as a whole try to do well.

Also, remember that no matter how much research you get while letting your grades suffer, someone will have the same amount with all honors.

True, but at least at my school, 3rd year grades are counted two times more than the first two years combined. I would say that they matter to an extent. The way I look at it is to use grades as a motivator to have a better retention of the material for the boards. The rest will fall into place.

 

[ijn]

Why are third year grades worth so much more if they are so arbitrary? I mean, at least in the 1st 2 years your grading system is consistent throughout. In 3rd year you might have rotations where 5% of the people honor and another where 50% honor (well maybe not everywhere, but I know this is true at my school.)

 

[235009]

Why are third year grades worth so much more if they are so arbitrary? I mean, at least in the 1st 2 years your grading system is consistent throughout. In 3rd year you might have rotations where 5% of the people honor and another where 50% honor (well maybe not everywhere, but I know this is true at my school.)

because residencies aren't looking for someone who's intimately familiar with the krebs cycle and care way more about ur command of clinical medicine and whether attendings and residents enjoy working with you

 

[ijn]

because residencies aren't looking for someone who's intimately familiar with the krebs cycle and care way more about ur command of clinical medicine and whether attendings and residents enjoy working with you

I can understand that, but say you're looking at students from two schools: one with 5% honors and 25% high pass on surgery vs another school that has 30% honors on surgery. Are PDs going to weigh the guy who from the first school who got a high pass equally with the guy who got honors at the 30% school? I doubt it, but I've never been on that end of the decision. Does the high pass guy have less command of clinical medicine?

 

[CatFactorial]

I can understand that, but say you're looking at students from two schools: one with 5% honors and 25% high pass on surgery vs another school that has 30% honors on surgery. Are PDs going to weigh the guy who from the first school who got a high pass equally with the guy who got honors at the 30% school? I doubt it, but I've never been on that end of the decision. Does the high pass guy have less command of clinical medicine?

That's why steps are so important.

 

[235009]

I can understand that, but say you're looking at students from two schools: one with 5% honors and 25% high pass on surgery vs another school that has 30% honors on surgery. Are PDs going to weigh the guy who from the first school who got a high pass equally with the guy who got honors at the 30% school? I doubt it, but I've never been on that end of the decision. Does the high pass guy have less command of clinical medicine?

how would PDs know the % who honor at each school? i guess they can deduce from how many applicants they see from that school who've honored the rotation or a school might include that in their MSPE.

Either way though the MSPE should put your grade into context and use shelf scores and comments from attendings/residents where appropriate to put the grade into context.

 

[drizzt3117]

I can understand that, but say you're looking at students from two schools: one with 5% honors and 25% high pass on surgery vs another school that has 30% honors on surgery. Are PDs going to weigh the guy who from the first school who got a high pass equally with the guy who got honors at the 30% school? I doubt it, but I've never been on that end of the decision. Does the high pass guy have less command of clinical medicine?

Only a small segment of programs wait for the mspe, although that may change.

 

[FSU2013]

how would PDs know the % who honor at each school? i guess they can deduce from how many applicants they see from that school who've honored the rotation or a school might include that in their MSPE.

Either way though the MSPE should put your grade into context and use shelf scores and comments from attendings/residents where appropriate to put the grade into context.

I know my med school includes a legend in the MSPE describing our performance with the rough percentage of people getting honors (appx 15%). I think this is relatively standard, but I may be wrong. We no longer include shelf exam scores b/c our dean said that their inclusion is getting fairly uncommon - Note: if you score extremely high (>90% or so), they will include it in the comments section.

 

[Butler]

I know my med school includes a legend in the MSPE describing our performance with the rough percentage of people getting honors (appx 15%). I think this is relatively standard, but I may be wrong. We no longer include shelf exam scores b/c our dean said that their inclusion is getting fairly uncommon - Note: if you score extremely high (>90% or so), they will include it in the comments section.

Notifying the PDs with what percentage of people get honors is fairly common from what I have heard.

 

[Untraditional]

Favorable research relationships, judicious use of Ctrl-V with smart journal selection, probably a little bit of fraud to boost the numbers of everyone in the group, luck enough to have a decent project that yields publishable results and plenty of hard work to obtain / describe them.

 

[Sephiroth]

My research is in medical physics / radiology, so I would characterize it as translational.

Yes, throughout implies in all four years. I did research before med school but not in the same group.

What are you going into? IR? DR? radonc?
Are you counting pubs you did in undergrad? And if so, how many of those are there? And what steps did you take to get involved in research so quickly?

Thanks.

 

[drizzt3117]

What are you going into? IR? DR? radonc?
Are you counting pubs you did in undergrad? And if so, how many of those are there? And what steps did you take to get involved in research so quickly?

Thanks.

Radiology, probably eventually body IR. I am not counting ug pubs (didn't have any). Contacted my mentor via email before med school started.

 

[Sephiroth]

Radiology, probably eventually body IR. I am not counting ug pubs (didn't have any). Contacted my mentor via email before med school started.

Did your school have any type of program or assistance, or did you just send an email completely on your own? I'd like to get started on research right from the get-go too, so I'm trying to figure out how I should go about this. So you got all of those without taking an extra research year? For your experience, do the people looking to go into research-dependent specialties get a lot of pubs without an extra year, or is the extra year more common?

 

[ArcGurren]

Radiology, probably eventually body IR. I am not counting ug pubs (didn't have any). Contacted my mentor via email before med school started.

Probably worth mentioning as a caveat that you (like many SDN members) do not represent the average medical student - not even the average med student who applies for radiology. You don't need to be AOA/step 1 > 260/10+ pubs in order to match a good program in radiology, let alone even just match.

So for those freaking out... don't worry.

 

[drizzt3117]

Did your school have any type of program or assistance, or did you just send an email completely on your own? I'd like to get started on research right from the get-go too, so I'm trying to figure out how I should go about this. So you got all of those without taking an extra research year? For your experience, do the people looking to go into research-dependent specialties get a lot of pubs without an extra year, or is the extra year more common?

I did research into people who were doing projects in areas I was interested in and srnt out an email. Our school only has a formal summer program after m1.

 

[Sephiroth]

Probably worth mentioning as a caveat that you (like many SDN members) do not represent the average medical student - not even the average med student who applies for radiology. You don't need to be AOA/step 1 > 260/10+ pubs in order to match a good program in radiology, let alone even just match.

So for those freaking out... don't worry.

Yeah, but having been doing a lot of research lately I'm thinking I want to go into rad onc, and I'm not getting a PhD, so I feel I may need to go into gunner mode.

I did research into people who were doing projects in areas I was interested in and srnt out an email. Our school only has a formal summer program after m1.

Ok, that sounds good. thanks.

 

[Ebola4Breakfast]

I did research into people who were doing projects in areas I was interested in and srnt out an email. Our school only has a formal summer program after m1.

This is what I don't understand. How can you be so certain about what you want to do so early? Everyone keeps telling me I'll change my mind at least once. I'll start school in the fall. I'm really interested in pediatric oncology. I have a lot of research in general oncology, most of which is basic science research. I'd love to get involved in some clinical pediatric oncology research. But what happens if I get into third year and I get my first screaming kid or angry parent and decide I hate pediatrics and want no part of it as a residency, much less for a subsequent fellowship in ped hem/onc. This is probably a stupid question, but would having that research hurt me if I was to apply for residency in a completely unrelated field?

 

[drizzt3117]

This is what I don't understand. How can you be so certain about what you want to do so early? Everyone keeps telling me I'll change my mind at least once. I'll start school in the fall. I'm really interested in pediatric oncology. I have a lot of research in general oncology, most of which is basic science research. I'd love to get involved in some clinical pediatric oncology research. But what happens if I get into third year and I get my first screaming kid or angry parent and decide I hate pediatrics and want no part of it as a residency, much less for a subsequent fellowship in ped hem/onc. This is probably a stupid question, but would having that research hurt me if I was to apply for residency in a completely unrelated field?

meh, lots of people knew what they wanted to do before they went into med school, don't drink the sdn kool-aid about that. It makes sense, if you think about it; why wouldn't you have a good idea of what you want to do? Most peoples have some role models in medicine.

The research won't hurt you but it won't help as much as if you were going into that field.

 

[Lunasly]

So let me just get this straight.

Do you recommend that those who want to get started on research should be e-mailing PD's prior to the start of classes? In fact, as soon as we get accepted?

I always hear the advice that we should take some time to see what medical school is like before we jump into any commitments. Do you say man up and you'll learn how to handle it?

What about some of the ultra-competitive specialties. I understand they want free labor, but how do you e-mail a rad. onc. dept asking for research before the first day of classes (or even within he first week) without looking like a gunner? Am I wrong here – do you look like a gunner?

 

[235009]

So let me just get this straight.

Do you recommend that those who want to get started on research should be e-mailing PD's prior to the start of classes? In fact, as soon as we get accepted?

I always hear the advice that we should take some time to see what medical school is like before we jump into any commitments. Do you say man up and you'll learn how to handle it?

What about some of the ultra-competitive specialties. I understand they want free labor, but how do you e-mail a rad. onc. dept asking for research before the first day of classes (or even within he first week) without looking like a gunner? Am I wrong here – do you look like a gunner?

IMO there's no reason to jump the gun like that. i know that anyone who would even consider doing something like this thinks they're going to own med school but you might be unpleasantly surprised. i would suggest you wait until at least the first midterm to assess how much time you can commit to research....if at all.

 

[drizzt3117]

Not necessarily; but I would get started ASAP.

So let me just get this straight.

Do you recommend that those who want to get started on research should be e-mailing PD's prior to the start of classes? In fact, as soon as we get accepted?

I always hear the advice that we should take some time to see what medical school is like before we jump into any commitments. Do you say man up and you'll learn how to handle it?

What about some of the ultra-competitive specialties. I understand they want free labor, but how do you e-mail a rad. onc. dept asking for research before the first day of classes (or even within he first week) without looking like a gunner? Am I wrong here – do you look like a gunner?