How do you tell when to leave a program?

[naotoshirogane]

I attend a clinical science model program where about 80% go into R1/research-heavy R2 or research professor faculty positions and almost all of the rest go into administration (running treatment programs, mostly). I'm a fifth year, hoping to both defend my dissertation and apply for internship next year; we're "strongly encouraged" to defend before applying for internship.

The past year or so, I've increasingly had thoughts of leaving. Primarily, the issue is that I strongly, strongly dislike the tiny, isolated, and extremely socially conservative town the university is in and how heavily that bleeds over into the university. When I applied, I knew that it was a big drawback, as all the grad students mentioned it as the major "con" of the program. but I didn't account for exactly how much it would wear on me over time. As a shallow as it sounds, the dating pool or lack thereof here is also a factor--I was in a long-term relationship the first four years of grad school, but now that I'm single, the lack of dating pool here is really self-evident. I'm female, turning 27 this spring, and feeling like my window for finding a partner/husband is rapidly closing,

Second, even though I've done very well in the program objectively (15-ish publications,a $15k foundation grant as PI, applying for an F31, etc), I'm beginning to wonder if academia is right for me. From what I've heard from faculty, the stresses of academia get worse rather than better, with even more insane pressure and competition to get grants and publications, and you have to be okay with ending up in town like this one or similar for the entirety of your career. I'm not interested in administration or full time clinical work, though I like doing some to break up research and teaching; I really do like research, but I'm not quite sure I'd like the reality of being a soft-money research professor or professor at an R1.

Packing my bags and leaving seems so appealing, but I don't really know what I'd do afterward and feel like I've spent a lot of time and energy on this program. How do you discern standard grad student angst from truly being time to quit?

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[CleverUsername15]

You are so close to finishing, why not stick it out? Also more and more people are not getting married until they are in their 30s. 27 is by no means getting towards the end of the window for finding a partner / having kids.

 

[Ollie123]

I would strongly encourage you to stick it out. 27 is far from "old" and in all honesty you would likely set your timeline further back by leaving the program (would you go back to school for something else? What would you do to build your career if not?).

I think almost everyone has thoughts like this at some point in grad school. Whether its the city, the work, or something else entirely it is incredibly common. Being in a city you don't like is unfortunate, but at this point you are so close to finishing it seems a silly reason to leave. If you were clearer on NOT wanting to go into this field it would be another matter.

You say you aren't sure if you are keen on the R1 route...what about an R2 or even SLAC? From what I hear, those places seem to offer better work-life balance and significantly less pressure to get grants, albeit often with a lower salary. We often forget this, but I also think its important to remember that good research training prepares you for a LOT more than just an academic job. There are plenty of industry and government research-esque jobs of various types. I know folks who have gone to work for the pharmaceutical industry, assorted foundations (e.g. American Cancer Society), government jobs (CDC, state health departments), insurance companies, become science writers for mainstream media outlets, work as statisticians, etc. These often aren't discussed and its certainly a bit harder to find given it isn't the traditional path....but they are out there. Some pay better, some pay worse, all have varying pros and cons associated with them. If academia does not pan out for me, I don't think I'd hesitate to pursue one of the above.

To answer your question - I think it is time to leave when you have a specific plan for what you want to do instead. The folks I know who legitimately left all did so with something in mind (unless it was for medical reasons). If you are a real grad student, your drive and anxiety level are probably too high to just up and leave without any plans for the future Right now it sounds like you just want things to be different. If I were you I'd stick with it and carve out some time for self-exploration of "how" you want things to be different.

 

[erg923]

I attend a clinical science model program where about 80% go into R1/research-heavy R2 or research professor faculty positions and almost all of the rest go into administration (running treatment programs, mostly), I'm a fifth year, hoping to both defend my dissertation and apply for internship next year; we're "strongly encouraged" to defend before applying for internship.

The past year or so, I've increasingly had thoughts of leaving. Primarily, the issue is that I strongly, strongly dislike the tiny, isolated, and extremely socially conservative town the university is in and how heavily that bleeds over into the university, When I applied, I knew that it was a big drawback, as all the grad students mentioned it as the major "con" of the program. but I didn't account for exactly how much it would wear on me over time. As a shallow as it sounds, the dating pool or lack thereof here is also a factor--I was in a long-term relationship the first four years of grad school, but now that I'm single, the lack of dating pool here is really self-evident. I'm female turning 27 this spring and feeling like my window for finding a partner/husband is rapidly closing,

Second, even though I've done very well in the program objectively (15-ish publications,a $15k foundation grant as PI, applying for an F31, etc), I'm beginning to wonder if academia is right for me. From what I've heard from faculty, the stresses of academia get worse rather than better, with even more insane pressure and competition to get grants and publications, and you have to be okay with ending up in town like this one or similar for the entirety of your career. I'm not interested in administration or full time clinical work, though I like doing some to break up research and teaching; I really do like research, but I'm not quite sure I'd like the reality of being a soft-money research professor or professor at an R1.

Packing my bags and leaving seems so appealing, but I don't really know what I'd do afterward and feel like I've spent a lot of time and energy on this program. How do you discern standard grad student angst from truly being time to quit?

You have articulated exactly 3 jobs for clinical psychologists (professor, full time clinician, Clinical program manager) out of about dozen viable options. So keep that in mind.

You will move for internship in a year and you have already survived 5 where you are, so I think you'll be fine. Its a university town (apparently), so I am pretty positive there are some guys there that don't drive pick-ups and support anything Obama proposes.

Have you considered research positions in the VA, such as MIRREC. How bout jobs with VA Central office (program development, EBT roll-out trainer, outcome analyst). These are salaried positions. Many of those positions are remote positions as well. I have my eye on one at the moment and am already preparing the home office.

 

[sardonic]

Also keep in mind that having a PhD will allow you to enter other fields more fluidly as well. I am also in a clinical scientist program and a good number of past graduates have gone into non-academic work. The PhD means something, even outside of the field.

 

[naotoshirogane]

Thanks for the replies and general support! You've given me some things to think about. I think I would really, really like an R2 or masters-granting institution, but I'm unsure if I would have too much of research base for them and not enough teaching or clinical stuff (I have two semesters of an intro lab (TA), a semester of teaching developmental, and a semester of teaching research methods, which is about the max we can teach). The MIRREC route is tempting, but I'm a child person, so probably not a fit.

As to my age, I think the demographics of the town may be jading me a bit, honestly. I did a "survey" with my research methods class as an example of data, and almost all of the students were age 20-22 but over half were engaged or married.

 

[Ollie123]

Thanks for the replies and general support! You've given me some things to think about. I think I would really, really like an R2 or masters-granting institution, but I'm unsure if I would have too much of research base for them and not enough teaching or clinical stuff (I have two semesters of an intro lab (TA), a semester of teaching developmental, and a semester of teaching research methods, which is about the max we can teach). The MIRREC route is tempting but I'm a child person, so probably not a fit.

Might be somewhat of a barrier - that is something that concerns me too. However, I'd much rather be worried about it from that side than trying to get to an R1 WITHOUT a strong research background. I actually don't think your teaching is far out of line with expectations, but you can always adjunct for awhile on post-doc if you want to build that experience.

As to my age, I think the demographics of the town may be jading me a bi, honestly. I did a "survey" with my research methods class as an example of data, and almost all of the students were age 20-22 but over half were engaged or married.

You've already mentioned you don't particularly like your location or the local populace. Do you really wish you were more like them?

 

[MCParent]

Might be somewhat of a barrier - that is something that concerns me too. However, I'd much rather be worried about it from that side than trying to get to an R1 WITHOUT a strong research background. I actually don't think your teaching is far out of line with expectations, but you can always adjunct for awhile on post-doc if you want to build that experience.

I agree--this would be way harder, or impossible, in the other direction.

SLACs have students who want to go to grad school, too; having a very very solid research base could be used to prove that you can get those students what they want. I have friends at SLACs who are adored by their depts for a few pubs a year on whatever they want to do and involving the undergrads, with 0 grant pressure. You'd have to do a really good job of convincing the SLACs that they're not just a backup, but I'm sure it's doable.

 

[notfullyfathomd]

I agree, stick it out! I think you need a change of scenery, which is likely to be necessary for internship anyway. I'm 29 and unmarried and have lived in several cities along the east coast (NE to the south) and have found that there are definitely pockets of other similarly unattached people, both in the dating pool and in terms of friends. Also, FWIW, I think sometimes we underestimate the skill set that graduate school develops, and how marketable it might be. Just recently, a family member who works in the tech industry was saying that he thought I was incredibly hirable in his subfield -- and although I have no intention of exploring that option, it was comforting to know that my training (which feels super-specific at times) has a broader appeal.

 

[PsyDr]

This just reeks of a bad breakup screwing up a good thing.


Advice: Finish up.dont let your environment set your own expectations. Move. Date when you're ready.

Unless you think guys just hate highly educated, high earning women.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I attend a clinical science model program where about 80% go into R1/research-heavy R2 or research professor faculty positions and almost all of the rest go into administration (running treatment programs, mostly). I'm a fifth year, hoping to both defend my dissertation and apply for internship next year; we're "strongly encouraged" to defend before applying for internship.

The past year or so, I've increasingly had thoughts of leaving. Primarily, the issue is that I strongly, strongly dislike the tiny, isolated, and extremely socially conservative town the university is in and how heavily that bleeds over into the university. When I applied, I knew that it was a big drawback, as all the grad students mentioned it as the major "con" of the program. but I didn't account for exactly how much it would wear on me over time. As a shallow as it sounds, the dating pool or lack thereof here is also a factor--I was in a long-term relationship the first four years of grad school, but now that I'm single, the lack of dating pool here is really self-evident. I'm female, turning 27 this spring, and feeling like my window for finding a partner/husband is rapidly closing,

Second, even though I've done very well in the program objectively (15-ish publications,a $15k foundation grant as PI, applying for an F31, etc), I'm beginning to wonder if academia is right for me. From what I've heard from faculty, the stresses of academia get worse rather than better, with even more insane pressure and competition to get grants and publications, and you have to be okay with ending up in town like this one or similar for the entirety of your career. I'm not interested in administration or full time clinical work, though I like doing some to break up research and teaching; I really do like research, but I'm not quite sure I'd like the reality of being a soft-money research professor or professor at an R1.

Packing my bags and leaving seems so appealing, but I don't really know what I'd do afterward and feel like I've spent a lot of time and energy on this program. How do you discern standard grad student angst from truly being time to quit?

I'll chime in with another post encouraging you to stick it out. Once you earn the degree it's yours for life and is a crucial asset opening doors for career and job opportunities. I think you'd regret quitting so late in the game at this point (think of how much you already have invested). Also, your clinical science background may serve you well in ways none of us can currently foresee, say, 10 or 15 years down the road. The healthcare landscape appears to be 'liquifying' and morphing at this point and nobody really knows how things will pan out or what opportunities will arise.

 

[BuckeyeAlum]

If you hate where you live, try to plan a few weekend get-aways for the next year. They don't have to be far or expensive - visit friends in the cities where they live (stay for free!), go back home and just be a bum on the couch, plan a "girls weekend" somewhere, etc. I've found that having plans to look forward to really helps when I'm frustrated/burned out/homesick.

Also - at least in my subspecialty (peds), there are a lot of hybrid jobs that are part research, part clinical, part training. Just b/c you go to a clinical scientist model doesn't mean you can't obtain a more scientist-practitioner internship or post-doc later.