About the ads

How does it feel to be in a profession dominated by women? :p

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by psych844, May 3, 2012.

  1. SDN is a nonprofit organization. Services are made possible through the generous support of SDN members and sponsors. Thank you.
  1. psych844

    psych844

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2012
    Messages:
    143
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member

    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    I'm a dude but kind of surprising that it is so slanted. I've had a look at some programs up here in Canada and for the applications you see numbers like 60F 6M. Why are women dominating in this field? Why are females interested but males less so?

    Could it be because pay in Psychology is among the lowest when you consider Graduate degrees?
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  2. deliciousgoose

    deliciousgoose

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    Canada
    Why on earth would women would more motivated to work in a low pay field than men?

    There definitely is a gender bias but I think the gender bias is more in therapy providers than in researchers.

    There is also a general skew in male/female enrollment rates.

  3. psych844

    psych844

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2012
    Messages:
    143
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Obv its a generalization but that's not how I thought about it. I think males look to fields where they can be wealthy and succesful (not neccesarily based on interest) and I think women care more about doing something they feel passionate about and less so about money. Of course this is just an opinion.

    And yeah, those stats are closer then I thought they were.
  4. ZsMusings

    ZsMusings

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    Ummm… I was trying my hardest not to respond to this thread but it is irk-ing me the way you have phrased your questions… but I will just leave it at that.

    Im my opinion, a more helpful question could be, " Why the gender discrepancy or slant to more women in the field?"

    And you could ask women who are in male dominated professions, how they feel about that ...
  5. deliciousgoose

    deliciousgoose

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    Canada
    Sorry to respond in a somewhat hostile manner. I think I misinterpreted you because of your use of the word "girl" in the thread title. It's a fairly diminutive way to refer to adult women who have often gone through 10 years of post-secondary education.

    I doubt you would post a thread titled, "How does it feel to be in a boy dominated profession? :p"



    Anyway, that aside, I think the gender disparity in the field is something to consider and potentially address. Many individuals feel more comfortable with male therapists, but they are few and far between. Psychology was once a field dominated by men, but now it seems to have gone to the opposite extreme.

    One possibility is that psychology is a science/social science that, because of the subject matter, wasn't as inaccessible to women as many other scientific fields. Maybe psychology is just the first frontier, and soon us women will have conquered all of the fields! (Joking. That is definitely less than ideal.)
  6. ZsMusings

    ZsMusings

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Status:
    Psychology Student

    +1
  7. psych844

    psych844

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2012
    Messages:
    143
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I was honestly trying to be cute with the "girl" and :p I def would post that.

    I wouldn't be surprised :p



    I changed the title out of respect.
  8. Pragma

    Pragma

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,441
    Location:
    Quarth
    Status:
    Psychologist
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I am guessing that wigflip will be here soon.
  9. Markp

    Markp Clinical Psychologist

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,266
    Status:
    Psychologist
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    LMAO.

    Who says the profession is "dominated" by women? How do you define "domination"?
  10. Psychadelic2012

    Psychadelic2012 PhD Student

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Messages:
    824
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Thank you so much for bringing this up, and OP for changing it. It really irked me, too.
  11. Iwillheal

    Iwillheal

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    Once other female members are done being irked, I would like to hear what they think about the topic as well. I am in a similar situation, the only guy in my class and I really don't like it. It's tough enough being the only person of color, but I feel doubly alienated by being the only guy. I think balance is very important. Engineering programs are dominated by men while psych programs are dominated by women. Unless the work requires particular skills possessed mainly by one sex (e.g. strong upper body in men), there is no reason both these programs should be this way. Not good for psych students, and not good for patients. We actually had a guy request a male therapist to talk about a sexually embarrassing situation and we could not help him.

    I am in particular disturbed by not being able to talk about my penis with other grad students lest it be considered sexual harassment. And I desperately need to talk about it several times a day, the more the better. It reaffirms my fragile masculinity and allows me to get in touch with who I am and feel manly.
  12. g0708

    g0708

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    34
    I just want to point out, that the fact psychology is now "dominated" by women is a very new phenomena. In fact, as early as maybe 30-40 years ago, women were rarely admitted to PhD programs in psychology. I had a professor last semster who was near retirement who said his cohort (and in general cohorts for clinical psych around the time he was admitted) were majority male. Only one or two women had been admitted and during the welcome speech by the dept director, he essentially said, "I don't know who admitted you guys, but you likely won't last long". He said the couple women he knew in his cohort had worked for multiple years in research labs prior to even being considered for admittance. (btw, this is all at a top R1 university). Also, take a look at the number of older male professors you've each had throughout the years vs the number of older females.

    There's an article about all this..the fact that there is a recent increase in women in the field...if I can find it I'll post it up.

    I personally think it's starting to level out more. I'm seeing more and more men decide to major in this field, and especially in neuroscience and neuropsych based clinical labs.

    Sent from my PC36100 using SDN Mobile
  13. Psychadelic2012

    Psychadelic2012 PhD Student

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Messages:
    824
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Please, say more....:rolleyes:
  14. PETRAN

    PETRAN

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    187
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Maybe because there is a statistical bias for women prefering jobs involving knowledge and application of interpersonal skills, assisting people solving their problems, talking to people etc. (i think the field is more skewed towards psychotherapy/counselling for females, more typical "social science" research etc.) whereas males possibly like more technical stuff and application of mechanistic knowledge in solving problems (and this is why i think a lot of male graduates prefer more experimental/cognitive psychology/neuropsychology/neuroscience etc.). The usual "men are from mars/women are from venus" stereotypical stuff :p (which still seem to hold a bit true up to a certain extend).


    Ofcourse i just made that up, i haven't looked at a single peace of research :laugh:
  15. Markp

    Markp Clinical Psychologist

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,266
    Status:
    Psychologist
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Perhaps you should bring the topic of your genitalia up as an exercise in diversity. I'm sure that would go over well.

    Seriously though, back to the topic at hand. I don't know if I would say that Psychology is a female dominated field at this time. Granted there are many outstanding women in the field, but when you look at leadership roles, who is occupying those? Anecdotal evidence suggests that men are disproportionately represented in leadership roles. There are always many reasons for gender effects and it's often hard to tease out the reason for apparent disparities.

    This is pretty dismissive of many male dominated career fields, the idea that men are not occupying jobs where the application of knowledge, interpersonal skills, assisting people in solving their problems, and talking to people is non-sense, even in many "engineering positions", solid interpersonal skills and assisting people in solving problems while talking to people is common place and required to be successful. That's pure over simplification in my opinion. We can look at other male dominated non-engineering fields and see many of these same skill sets as well.

    Certainly there are aspects of psychology that are more attractive to women than men, but this is even at the undergraduate level. Women make up nearly 70% of all psychology undergraduates, biasing the field for graduate training. This is where things are happening. Women are more likely than men to pursue undergraduate psychology educations, the question is why?

    M
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  16. deliciousgoose

    deliciousgoose

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    Canada
    I agree with pretty much everything you said, especially regarding males occupying leadership positions in the field.

    That being said, I think the skew really isn't as pronounced at the undergrad level as at the grad level. If you see the stats I posted earlier, in Canada at least, almost 60% of students enrolled in universities are female. So if 70% of psych student are female that's a bit more but not significantly so. (No I haven't run the tests.) I think psychology is probably pretty well paralleled by chemistry. My partner is doing his PhD in chem and the m:f ratio is about 8:1. In undergrad I would estimate it to have been closer to 6:4 or in certain classes 7:3. There's something about graduate studies in these fields that seems to unappealing or that discourages them.

    To some extent I think its just the perception of being the only person of that sex in your lab or year. I know several of my partner's female classmates switched to biochemical or chem eng for grad studies, and at least one said the # of females was a factor.

    Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
  17. Markp

    Markp Clinical Psychologist

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,266
    Status:
    Psychologist
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Well actually it is significant... (the large sample size means very high power, and thus statistical significance is practically assured.) The difference between statistical and practical significance can be rather large... but in this case I believe both are true.

    Here is what APA has on their website:

    http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2011/01/cover-men.aspx

    I apologize for being US centric as I am sure that numbers should and would vary markedly in other countries.
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  18. deliciousgoose

    deliciousgoose

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    Canada
    Oh sorry I assumed, incorrectly, that your stats were Canadian because mine were, and the threadstarter is Canadian. I don't know then what the demographics of Canadian psych undergrads are or the demographics of American students enrolled in university (which is different from college.)

    Edit: thanks for posting that article. My mum is a therapist in a firm, and she and her business partner (male) definitely pick up more marriage counselling clients because in session with both of them both members of the couple feel they are being heard in a way which doesn't seem to be possible if either my mum or the partner does the initial interview individually.
    Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  19. Iwillheal

    Iwillheal

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    254
  20. zensouth

    zensouth

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    82
    Status:
    Non-Student
    I am male and I enjoy being one of only a few (actually the only male at my current job). I currently work with kids on contract with a local CMHC as an LAPC and I have about 1/3 of my caseload that specifically work with me because I am male, i.e. "My son needs a male role model", "He has only women in his life", "His father is largely absent, I just want him to have some male interaction". I try to the best of my ability to have conversations with the parent about gender, gender bias, and to clarify my role as a counselor and not a mentor/role model, but they are often quite insistent anyway. Fine with me . . . if that opens up a door to a certain niche or clientele then I am fine with that. It's one of the few times that as a White, heterosexual male I feel separate from the homogeneous majority masses.
  21. Psychadelic2012

    Psychadelic2012 PhD Student

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Messages:
    824
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Gotcha. Next time, maybe remember to insert plenty of :laugh:'s and :p's and :rofl::rofl::rofl:'s and such, in order to accurately portray your sarcasm. :nod:
  22. Pragma

    Pragma

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,441
    Location:
    Quarth
    Status:
    Psychologist
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I dunno, there was a thick coat of it. I was LOLing when I read it :laugh:
  23. Psychadelic2012

    Psychadelic2012 PhD Student

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Messages:
    824
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    :shifty: Oh, drat! You mean it wasn't serious?! :laugh:

    PS - At first glance I thought your "LOLing" said "Long". Heh.
  24. sabaijae

    sabaijae

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Another dude here. I'll add my .02, since I'll soon be joining a school psych program - a field largely dominated by women (according to NASP stats, I think it's 70-75% female). How it will feel is something I've been thinking about for awhile...

    As for why it's dominated by women (not that women are out to 'dominate' :p): I think this partly has to do with salary, as mentioned; there are obviously cultural factors at play. American culture seems to feel more comfortable/'feelings' have become more important/it's become a norm to talk about 'feelings' more-so than 30-40 years ago - partly thanks to new therapeutic techniques and the psych field itself. I'm pretty sure this has been written about somewhere ...

    And perhaps because the field is scientific, it provides women with a certain type of power/status through its association with science. On the other hand, the field deals with emotion/'feelings'/caregiving, typically female-oriented traits (in Western culture). Might be a nice combo for women ...

    As far as why more men tend to be in leadership roles: again, looking at this culturally/socially, many men might feel quite a bit of pressure from society (including family/friends, girlfriend/spouse, etc) to be 'successful'/the breadwinner - typically male-oriented traits (in Western culture) - which largely means holding managerial/leadership roles.

    Another thing, just a thought - wouldnt some of those older male profs enjoy lording over/supervising women more than men? :p
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  25. wigflip

    wigflip

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,555
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Pragma, I don't know if your comment was written in wistful anticipation, or should have been accompanied by an eye-roll, but either way, here I am.

    I'm resisting launching a screed on the the regressive "domination" frame.

    But I will suggest if folks would genuinely like to know more about how power is distributed within a given discipline, you could search for research on:

    1. gendered pay disparities (for clinicians, academics, and applied researchers)

    2. disparities in publications (number, type, prestige of journals, frequency of citations by others [(h-index?])

    3. disparities in hiring for T-T jobs

    4. disparities in achieving tenure

    5. disparities in teaching loads (and type of teaching done--large UG survey classes vs. grad seminars)

    6. disparities in amount of university-based/professional organization service work (sometimes prestigious, often just crapwork)

    7. mentoring disparities (amount of mentoring received and the amount of mentoring one provides others)

    8. disparities in grants received

    9. disparities in experiences of discrimination and harassment

    10. relative prestige and funding accorded to subfields in which women or men predominate

    11. disciplinary epistemology (how research on women and gender is conducted and regarded)

    Edit: Oops...I forgot to mention that it would also be worth examining any recent research on whether the "glass escalator" effect seems to be operable for psych folks in various contemporary institutional contexts.
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  26. Pragma

    Pragma

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,441
    Location:
    Quarth
    Status:
    Psychologist
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Wistful anticipation, of course :)

    Eye-rolling does not seem appropriate in this situation.
  27. wigflip

    wigflip

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,555
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    :)
  28. mclash

    mclash

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    Here's my immediate, knee-jerk hypothesis:

    Sexism has appeared to morph over the decades, and while it still exists in its most overt, blatant forms in many ways, there is now at least some taboo against it in the dominant discourse ... kinda. With this shift, sexist attitudes and beliefs have had to become more sophisticated and subtle, but boy oh boy do they march on with vigor. One of the most insidious ways that sexism perpetuates is in the form of benevolent sexism, where women are seen as magical, nurturing, social creatures (who are also fundamentally weaker and must be protected). These attitudes strike me as being more prevalent now than the hamfisted, hostile sexism, but they are certainly still destructive. (If you ask me to provide support for this, fine, whatever, I'll cite my ****. But I wont do it until I'm called out for it. Because I'm lazy.)

    I've encountered this problematic attitude over and over again. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that it exists to varying degrees in the vast majority. I'm not sure why it surprised me to come across quite a few people in this field (men and women) who hold onto a belief (or at least a suspicion) that women are inherently more nurturing and emotional than men. This belief in such a fundamental, biological difference is unfounded until we can eliminate the overwhelming societal pressures for either gender to be a specific way.

    With that yada yada'ing about systemic reinforcement of traditional gender roles, I think that psychology is one of the few scientific professions that women can enter into that does not appear to completely challenge society's predominant view of them. Because it's expected of women to nurture and be social creatures, it's become a relatively easier path for women to pursue in the scientific world (thanks to the struggle of many strong women before us). That being said, as wigflip pointed to, the actual power structures within the field are less convincing of a shift in traditional power dynamics. The gaps in these disparities appear to be shrinking, thankfully, but at a much slower rate than I would like!

    Perhaps once we smash the patriarchy, males will be encouraged by society to embrace their nurturing/empathetic capacities, and thus look to pursue more careers in psychology. So! If you'd like to have more male companionship in the field, might I suggest you take this hammer and smash with me? :nod:
  29. zensouth

    zensouth

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    82
    Status:
    Non-Student
    Excellent statement. While on interviews this year I had a discussion with a professor who studies men and masculinity, particularly how adherence to masculine norms affects psychological well being. I don't have the citations, but I remember her saying that essentially psychological health (for men and women) is negatively affected by adherence masculine norms in nearly every respect and that protective factors are few, if any. As a man my knee-jerk reaction is to defend masculine norms, I have been steeped in them since birth. However, I think your post begins to show how masculine norms can affect everyone- pushing out women from certain careers/activities while simultaneously isolating men from their own emotional experience. I am thankful for the current state of psychology as I am entering it. It has been an eye opening experience to the ways that I, as a man, have attributed to the covert sexism against women as well as limiting my own psychological experience
  30. deadmau5

    deadmau5

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Great White North
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Ryerson, I think it's 95% female in their clinical psychology program. One time I actually wanted to tabulate the current numbers across Canada and write something about it.

    The trend will continue because female professors are more likely to take female students... and the males seem to be leaning the same way... for some reasons. That's not to say that I vote for gender equality in psychology programs. Females do tend to be better applicants and the general rates of university enrolment has been tipping towards female (about 60%). It's just a little daunting if you are a male in psychology applying to some particular schools.
  31. RGirl

    RGirl

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    98
    Status:
    MD/PhD Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    :thumbup:
  32. crim84

    crim84

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    114
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I enjoy being the only guy. It was a factor in my decision to pursue a career in clinical psychology. Sometimes it has been an issue because I feel like the way I think is different than others, but I could just look at things the wrong way, too. The only thing I really miss about having more male peers is all the computer jokes and south park references. But with girls the jokes are more socially-oriented, like about what someone chose to wear. Both types of jokes are equally hilarious and make me rofl.
  33. animaladvocate

    animaladvocate

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    39
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    I don't think this is necessarily true. What is this based on (i.e. how do you more they are more likely to take female students)? Maybe just more women apply to these programs and possibly have better statistics then the potentially fever men who are applying...

    In any case, I am a male attending a clinical PhD program in Canada. I had no problem getting in, in fact, many of the potential supervisors I had talked mentioned how we needed more males in the field because of the huge gender gap. Not that this was necessarily an advantage, just pointing out that in many cases I don't think there is a weird phenomenon where females have an advantage solely on being female - admission is merit based.
  34. mclash

    mclash

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    Your feeling of being different from others in how you think may be influenced by you being a lone male, but I promise you, regardless of your gender, you are not alone in that feeling. Many of us are coming from very different backgrounds, with very different experiences and ways of identifying. I may be a middle class, heterosexual, white female - but I've certainly had some experiences in my life which make me feel like maybe I'm coming from a completely different planet than my peers.
    I used to feel isolated because I felt like I was always coming from such a different place than most people, but I've come to embrace it. I now feel less like an alien, and begun to recognize that I am profoundly human - with all the grit, grime, and glory that that comes with. Humans, man, are so outrageously fascinating.

    I think it's important to try to keep in mind that there is virtually always much more within-group diversity than there is between groups. That can be especially hard to remember in our field when we're doing so much research on how such and such group is different from such and such other group.
  35. mclash

    mclash

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    I love this post, thanks for making it.
    I feel as though I am maybe one of the more radical people in psychology. Before applying to graduate school, I had some very serious doubts about entering the field, because I suspected it propped up the status quo in a lot problematic ways. (I still maintain that suspicion, but I'm trying to work within the system to bring it down ;) .) It's been encouraging to see that there are quite a few people out there who are really looking much more into gender/racial/economic critiques, and investigating more systemic oppressive structures. I think it's of utmost importance for individual and societal mental health to take very serious, critical analysis of the way that power dynamics are distributed in society, in all of its nebulous facets.

    I sometimes struggle with the idea of framing feminist/minority issues in the sense of "it's harmful for EVERYONE," because, well, it's clearly more immediately harmful for some groups than others. However, it's becoming more and more evident that even though the harm is being distributed disproportionately, there are still very imminent ways in which even those who have the most to gain from maintaining the status quo are also directly suffering from it.

    As if any of us really have any time to read anything outside of what we need to read, but there's a lot of really great literature on some of this. If anyone wants to read a short, powerful primer, Feminism is for Everybody by bell hooks is just ... phenomenal.


    Okay. I'm stepping off the soapbox now.
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  36. Iwillheal

    Iwillheal

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    I think feminism can be no less oppressive and dangerous, if not more, than patriarchy. I think politics of identity need to have a firm grounding in biology. We are not animals but we do come from animals. Male dominance, observed often enough in animal kingdom, is not an aberration. Men are different from women, that's fact. We are not different because we were told to play with little toy soldiers while our sisters played with dolls. I am not saying that did not matter, it certainly did. But it was NOT the only factor that has made me different from my sister. As a matter of fact, I DID play with dolls as a kid, perhaps because I'm the only guy, raised mostly by my mom and older sister (stop right there! No analysis! ;) :) )

    Throughout history, different groups of people have been deemed inferior, oppressed, abused and killed. It's horrible. And it continues to this very day. Women, especially in many countries in Asia, are treated like second-class citizens even now. But it happens elsewhere with other groups too, and with men too, to a lesser extent--but it does happen. But one does not fix the problem by denying the reality of how men and women function. Equality does not mean 50-50. It means treating each sex/gender, each individual, humanely, respectfully, and providing opportunities and an environment that allows the person to actualize his/her potential. Emasculating men and treating their tendency to dominate as something inherently negative, as some have done, is not the way to go.
  37. mclash

    mclash

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    I think this is a common misunderstanding of what feminism is/advocates for (but that could be that feminism is hardly a monolithic ideology). I agree that there needs to be a firm grounding in biology, but the simple fact is that we haven't been able to tease out those differences nearly well enough to claim that the many differences between genders is due to biology. Additionally, there is also very strong evidence that supports how powerful gender norms can be. The point then, is not to ignore biological differences (or differences in tendencies), but to be aware that we simply do not know enough about the origin of those differences; it would be imprudent for us to claim causality. Regardless of whether biology makes a larger percentage of boys versus girls more interested in science and tonka toys versus English and dolls, they should have equal opportunity to engage in those interests without being punished for violating their assigned gender norms.


    Women in every single country of the world are being treated as second-class citizens, yes. And ABSOLUTELY that goes for other marginalized groups. I don't think anyone here is claiming that men don't suffer, too. What you're advocating for is what I'm advocating for: equality of opportunity and respect. However, I do challenge your claim about domination. I'm dominating, myself, and I don't find it inherently negative. I know plenty of men who would love to have a woman taking charge and to go along for the ride, and they shouldn't be punished for that, just as I shouldn't be punished for taking charge. On the other hand, it has been demonstrated throughout history that people in positions of power will abuse that power. So while domination is not inherently negative, the tendency for abuse should be strongly cautioned against.
    I am not sure who you think is advocating for emasculating anyone. I'm certainly not. But then again, what people feel emasculated by is a mysterious mystery to me. I apologize if anything I've said has offended you as a man, or fundamentally put into question how large and powerful your throbbing member is.
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  38. perhaps11

    perhaps11

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    98
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    I think that a lot of people automatically think of feminism as a bunch of radical women who hate men and absolutely refuse to follow any societal norms for women (i.e. refusing to shave their pits or taking offense when a man opens a door for them out of kindness). While I do respect these women who fall into the category of a radical feminists, I do not believe that they are representative of feminism. In fact, a lot of what you preach in the form of actualizing and nurturing every individual’s right and potential to succeed in life is what feminism is all about. As a man, I consider myself a feminist and I believe a little feminism in everyone would be a good thing, but that is just me. There is some really good literature regarding feminist theory as an approach to psychotherapy that focuses not only on the psychological impact of being a woman in the society we live in, but just being a minority in general and a lot of feminist theory overlaps with the multicultural theory to psychotherapy as well. Bottom line – I think radical feminism could be divisive and harmful to society just as a lot of radical thinking can, but the average feminist, I believe, strives to practice exactly what you are preaching.
  39. mclash

    mclash

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    Additionally, Iwillheal, to get back to the original request you made in this thread: I'd be more than happy to engage with you on genitaliachat. Just so long as I'm allowed to talk about my cavernous vagina with impunity as well. But perhaps we ought to take that to private messages.
  40. crim84

    crim84

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    114
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    lol!
  41. crim84

    crim84

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    114
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Very good point, and the last paragraph is interesting to think about. More within-group diversity. And I think you are right--everyone must feel a similar way.
  42. cara susanna

    cara susanna Predoctoral Intern

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,526
    Location:
    Midwest
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Feminism is basically just the view that women are actually humans and not just sexual objects. :p
  43. 4410

    4410

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2012
    Messages:
    354
    You will find that not only are women outnumbering men as psychologists but my guess is that it is more common in many other fields as well. It is a sign of the times. We now have men staying at home and taking care of the kids while their wife works as a judge or a physician or why they are working on advanced degrees. American society allows for opportunistic individuals to reach their dreams. One thing that may need discussion is how norms have changed in graduate education as I have been the only male in a class with a female instructor many times in he last five years. The ole good ole boys systems does not work too well when you are the only boy but it sure does well in advancing females when you have a good ole gal system.

    I have never endorsed quotas but it seems that many graduate school program are accepting more females and/or other minorities to the point where the white anglo-saxen Protestant males almost seems to be a dying breed in the professional ladder. The pendulum has swung too far to the point where reverse discrimination seems common.
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  44. Iwillheal

    Iwillheal

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    If you say so. :) But somebody who claimed to be a feminist (a PhD student I know) told me that is not so. That feminism is about women being free to define who they are and how they are to be treated. That if a girl wants to be treated as a sexual object, then that's feminism. If she wants to be seen as a CEO and not a woman, then that's feminism. From her perspective, feminism is about power, power to define her own identity and in her own words. She believes that if MEN are to decide that women are actually human and not sex objects, that's patriarchy. Women are anything and everything they themselves want to be and that nobody has the right to define that except those very women. She gave me a lecture because I had a negative view of prostitution but that she felt it was "empowering." Though I agree with a lot of what she had to say, as noted above, I still refuse to see prostitution as empowering. I personally think that only a small number of women make the choice to be used in that way. For many it's the default option, the last thing they have to offer, when they have no real options left. If someone still wants to see it as empowering, fine. But I won't look at it that way.
  45. cara susanna

    cara susanna Predoctoral Intern

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,526
    Location:
    Midwest
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    That's third wave feminism. I'm a second wave feminist, who sees so-called sexual empowerment as just another form of objectification and being treated as the sex class. :)

    4410: It's hard to explain, you pretty much have to live it to understand what women go through. We are constantly judged by our looks, put through the Madonna/whore dichotomy in which we are judged by society if we don't put out and judged if we do, have to walk through public areas or even sit in our own homes always worrying about whether or not we will be the victim of some sort of sexual assault, etc.

    Oh, btw , this new study demonstrated that heavier women are viewed as "sloppy" and thinner women are viewed as "mean." So, we can't win!
  46. Iwillheal

    Iwillheal

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    Mclash, I agree with most of what you had to say. Also, cavernous vagina? How psychoanalytic of you! :)
  47. Jon Snow

    Jon Snow Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,864
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Guys are judged by their looks as well. Just sayin. Check out data on height and facial symmetry.
  48. Iwillheal

    Iwillheal

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    Cool, so we are in agreement on that. Would it be too much to hope that you also like long walks on the beach...and watching porn? ;)

    Seriously though, I think so many views these days are glorified mainly because they are framed as empowerment. While I think empowerment is very important, is it not inherently so valuable as to outweigh other systems of valuation.
  49. cara susanna

    cara susanna Predoctoral Intern

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,526
    Location:
    Midwest
    Status:
    Psychology Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Not to the same extent that women are. There is data that men are extremely uncomfortable when men are objectified whereas women have no reaction to when women are objectified. That's because women are used to it, whereas men aren't. If you want less scientific data, just read about female vs. male politicians and how often looks are brought up for the different sexes.

    Edit: Sorry, iwillheal, I'm engaged and I'm also an anti-porn feminist. ;)
  50. zensouth

    zensouth

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    82
    Status:
    Non-Student
    Skinny, pale, and pimply. It's a wonder I ever got married.

Share This Page


About the ads