How does one survive neurosurgery residency?

[Snoopy2006]

Proposal:

Hire more residents and attending per hospital and have overlapping shifts to enhance continuity of care. For example, one neursurg works from 6 am to 6 pm, while a second joins in a 9 am till 9 pm, while a third joins in at 12 pm to 12 am. This way, there is less "handing off" of cases since the incoming resident/attending more or less knows what procedures happened with that patient. Any single neurosurg won't be able to do pre-op, op, and post-op, but at least you contributed in some way to the care of that patient. Updated medical records will keep everything well documented and up to date in terms of meds, complications, etc. Residents/attendings work a maximum of 12 hours in pre-determined shifts. Residents/attendings make it home in time for dinner/breakfast etc. and have a life outside neurosurgery.

Assume that hospitals can afford to hire the resident and attendings to begin with by cutting down their salary.

Shoot this proposal down.

Unless you're suggesting hospitals steal neurosurgery residents away from other hospitals, this would require additional funding that I don't see happening right now. The only way I see this working is if residency programs have their interns wait outside other hospitals and abduct neurosurg residents, then bring them back to their hospital to work their 12-hour shifts. But then comes the issue of whether or not the interns report their abduction hours, which would probably push them over the 80 hour weeks, and it just becomes a bigger mess...

You've provided a lot of interesting food for thought. But if you're seriously considering neurosurgery, you know you're not going to change the system overnight. Accept what the system is right now and like many others have said, if 100+ hour work weeks sound so distasteful, then ... don't do neurosurgery. You might have just been arguing to play devil's advocate, but if your posts are taken at face value, you seem to value the "other things" in life too much to work the long hours. Self-selection is a very real thing.

Also, napoleondynamite's post was excellent.

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[KinasePro]

Here's a decent study of practicing surgeons' lifestyles across pretty much every sub-specialty with a decent sample size (n > 7600). They surveyed both PP and academia:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jamcollsurg.2010.06.393,

The paper is definitely worth a read. Here are some interesting factoids:

• 83% of neurosurgeons reported working less than 80 hrs/week, but only 28.4% work < 60 hrs/wk
• Neurosurgeons' lifestyles are very similar to pediatric, colorectal, surg onc and vascular surgeons.
• The study makes ortho look like a "lifestyle" specialty compared to ENT and Urology, with orthopods taking less call and 53% of them working <60 hrs/wk.
• It turns out that surgeons work really hard and burn out often, but ~78% are still working on their first marriage.

 

[duckie99]

Here's a decent study of practicing surgeons' lifestyles across pretty much every sub-specialty with a decent sample size (n > 7600). They surveyed both PP and academia:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jamcollsurg.2010.06.393,

The paper is definitely worth a read. Here are some interesting factoids:

• 83% of neurosurgeons reported working less than 80 hrs/week, but only 28.4% work < 60 hrs/wk
• Neurosurgeons' lifestyles are very similar to pediatric, colorectal, surg onc and vascular surgeons.
• The study makes ortho look like a "lifestyle" specialty compared to ENT and Urology, with orthopods taking less call and 53% of them working <60 hrs/wk.
• It turns out that surgeons work really hard and burn out often, but ~78% are still working on their first marriage.

good points. The residency for all those fields are pretty brutal but once you get done it isn't so bad. Most of neurosurgery in real life isn't trauma and doesn't require lots of overnight call. A pituitary adenoma removal can be scheduled. In ortho joint replacements, their major procedure, are not emergent. The list goes on. I think that article shows most surgeons do those types of procedures. Sure there are days were they take call for the group. But overall life isn't that bad and there are worse areas. For example a friend on mine whose dad is a general surgeon in a smaller city but far away from other major cities said the cardiology group at the hospital works way more hours than his gen surg group.

 

[kitsunepixie]

I have several radiation oncologists in my family, and I agree that they have very close relationships with many of their patients...I know my current Neuro-ICU patients' families far better than I know my patients themselves before what happened to each of them to land them in my care. :/

The private practice neurosurgeons in my town have a decent lifestyle (I'd say superb for neurosurgery), and they owe a lot of that to their well-selected group of hardworking neurosurgery NPs and PAs. These men and women are awesome...some of them have 20 years of experience of caring for neurosurgery patients (yes, even subarachnoid patients), and can see consults, put in ICP monitors and EVDs, and even help out in the OR. We have some NPs (one has nearly 30 years of experience working with our attendings/hospital system) in our residency program that help with floor scutwork, the flow of continuity of care (they have a very detailed "sign out" system that they keep that includes pictures of the patient's latest scans, albeit it's cumbersome to carry around), and updating families and nurses throughout the day so we residents can focus on operating, knowing our specific assigned patients really well, and big family meetings, and it has definitely helped us stay (mostly) duty hour compliant despite an increased workload. I also think our patient care and patient satisfaction is higher because of their dedication. I think I'll definitely shell out the $$ to hire a good PA/NP when I'm out on my own because of my experiences with them.

 

[neusu]

I have several radiation oncologists in my family, and I agree that they have very close relationships with many of their patients...I know my current Neuro-ICU patients' families far better than I know my patients themselves before what happened to each of them to land them in my care. :/

The private practice neurosurgeons in my town have a decent lifestyle (I'd say superb for neurosurgery), and they owe a lot of that to their well-selected group of hardworking neurosurgery NPs and PAs. These men and women are awesome...some of them have 20 years of experience of caring for neurosurgery patients (yes, even subarachnoid patients), and can see consults, put in ICP monitors and EVDs, and even help out in the OR. We have some NPs (one has nearly 30 years of experience working with our attendings/hospital system) in our residency program that help with floor scutwork, the flow of continuity of care (they have a very detailed "sign out" system that they keep that includes pictures of the patient's latest scans, albeit it's cumbersome to carry around), and updating families and nurses throughout the day so we residents can focus on operating, knowing our specific assigned patients really well, and big family meetings, and it has definitely helped us stay (mostly) duty hour compliant despite an increased workload. I also think our patient care and patient satisfaction is higher because of their dedication. I think I'll definitely shell out the $$ to hire a good PA/NP when I'm out on my own because of my experiences with them.

I'd agree, neuro-oncologists tend to have a rather intimate relationship with the brain cancer patients and their families (almost too much so, sometimes, if you ask me). Then again, most of them are dying, albeit slowly, or quickly.

I agree, a dedicated NP/PA is essential for any neurosurgeon. In practice, having an assistant who works closely with you and you trust can allow for a reasonable lifestyle. Regardless, residency is another issue. In residency, you are that PA/NP for an academic neurosurgeon, and you don't have the luxury of 20 years experience, and you're the PA/NP for 5-20 other neurosurgeons whose practices vary from ER indigents to wealthy billionaires.

To contest a previous point regarding the thought that radiation oncologists have as close a patient relationship as neurosurgeons. I am not a radiation oncologist nor have I gone through their training program. I have worked with them on my rotations for gamma knife/cyber knife etc. At the end of the day, the intimacy of the neurosurgical relationship revolves around the fact that the patient understands that their brain controls their motor and sensory functions, their cognition, THEM. They meet you, you tell them your surgical plan. They place their trust and life (in their uninformed minds) in your hands, and you miraculously cut their head open and lob a piece of brain out or put a metal clamp on a blood vessel to keep it from bleeding. To them it's a miracle, to you it's a daily task. They will forever remember you as the man/woman who took care of them, put your hands inside their being, and, possibly, made them better.

 

[JackShephard MD]

.... They place their trust and life (in their uninformed minds) in your hands, and you miraculously cut their head open and lob a piece of brain out or put a metal clamp on a blood vessel to keep it from bleeding. To them it's a miracle, to you it's a daily task. They will forever remember you as the man/woman who took care of them, put your hands inside their being, and, possibly, made them better.

Can you guys get over yourselves.

Who has the deepest patient connections...

Really?

All the good done sounds so lame when you begin to say how much better your experiences are than others, like its a competition.

 

[CassieBagley]

nothing

 

[neusu]

Can you guys get over yourselves.

Who has the deepest patient connections...

Really?

All the good done sounds so lame when you begin to say how much better your experiences are than others, like its a competition.

I'm not trying to make it a competition, we tend to operate on a patient and never see them again after their post op check.

Everyone has a different role, ours is not necessarily better.

 

[Bojack Horseman]

So apparently, no, they can't get over themselves.

 

[copes]

All I'm saying is that despite which type of doctor our patients end up giving the credit to, nearly every medical specialties are entitled to the same demigod complex neurosurgeon's have. Accurately diagnosing HTN before a stroke or providing something as simple as steroids for a huge dermatological autoimmune reaction are just as live-saving as removing a brain tumor...although the effects are less direct. Other specialties such as pathologists, radiologists etc. save lives just as much as neurosurgeons, but I feel like they don't go around touting how awesome they are.

I agree with you but I think that is just part of the culture of neurosurgery. The pediatric neurosurgeons are really nice to students at my school so it doesn't really bother me. The pediatric surgeons on the other hand are total tools.

 

[Mortal_Lessons]

Other specialties such as pathologists, radiologists etc. save lives just as much as neurosurgeons, but I feel like they don't go around touting how awesome they are.

Dude, no offense, but you're living in a dream world.The sense you get that they're "touting how awesome they are" is a reflection of the work they do. If pathologists or radiologists were doing the same work as neurosurgeons, some of the attitude would come along with it. I've spent considerable time in pathology and can tell you no one in the pathology department has the palpable sense that they're saving livings because it's clearly not a part of their daily reality, even if in some indirect way their diagnosis helps guide someone's treatment which then goes on to prolong their life. Part of the attitude is simply the nature of the work-it instills a sense of confidence and pride and that may come off negatively to other specialists who often don't share the same direct, hands-on, life-changing responsibilities on a daily basis.

 

[CassieBagley]

nothing

 

[Slack3r]

If there's one thing I learned from this thread, it's that neurosurg attracts IMMENSE tools.

 

[copes]

If there's one thing I learned from this thread, it's that neurosurg attracts IMMENSE tools.

Yeah I think neurosurgery really attracts people who feel like they need to prove that they are better than everyone else. To put it nicely, that's great because we need people who are willing to put in the hours to be good surgeons. If you talk to neurosurgeons, you'll get the feeling that they think they can do everything and everyone else in the hospital is incompetent. Which is not the case at all, and there are plenty of really smart people who go into radiology, dermatology, plastics who don't feel the need to have a god complex.

 

[copes]

Dude, no offense, but you're living in a dream world.The sense you get that they're "touting how awesome they are" is a reflection of the work they do. If pathologists or radiologists were doing the same work as neurosurgeons, some of the attitude would come along with it. I've spent considerable time in pathology and can tell you no one in the pathology department has the palpable sense that they're saving livings because it's clearly not a part of their daily reality, even if in some indirect way their diagnosis helps guide someone's treatment which then goes on to prolong their life. Part of the attitude is simply the nature of the work-it instills a sense of confidence and pride and that may come off negatively to other specialists who often don't share the same direct, hands-on, life-changing responsibilities on a daily basis.

I agree. I feel like neurosurgeons at times literally have the patient's wellbeing in their hands and that can be both empowering and incredibly stressful. Another part of it is that neurosurgeons make crazy amounts of $$$, but you know if compensation for spine surgery gets cut, they might not have as much to boast about.

 

[Wheatley]

I find it unfortunate people perceive neuro as attracting the biggest tools in medicine. Whether this is true or not I'm not sure but the perception is there. There are many talented hard working people out there that are chill, nice and completely turned off by tools that I see avoiding the field because of this rep.

 

[Bojack Horseman]

I find it unfortunate people perceive neuro as attracting the biggest tools in medicine. Whether this is true or not I'm not sure but the perception is there. There are many talented hard working people out there that are chill, nice and completely turned off by tools that I see avoiding the field because of this rep.

I'm sure there are tools in every field imaginable, medical and non-medical.

 

[Wheatley]

I'm sure there are tools in every field imaginable, medical and non-medical.

Yes but a lot of people seem to have a "tool" rep for neurosurgeons at least on SDN. I'm not sure if this perception is even warranted or true. There are probably tools that are plumbers or pilots, but I don't think they have that reputation. Maybe SDN skews the perception of neuro surgeons too high on the tool spectrum or something.

 

[sylvanthus]

Or it could have something to do with the fact that the neurosurgeon posting on this thread is acting like a tool? Yes, N=1, but not many of us have that many interactions with neurosurgeons.

 

[Mortal_Lessons]

Dude, no offense, but you're sucking on the great, fat weenie that is neurosurgery. Get ready for a huge load sprayed all over your face, drenching your sleep, meals, free time, and occupation with the sole hope that maybe one day you will finally reach that level of happiness if you become a neurosurgeon, only to find out once you're there that what you've really been chasing after all these years has been deeper desire to simply respect yourself, which of course you won't because you place your value in external constructs and how others perceive you. But don't fear- you can start your road to self respect sooner by beginning to acknowledge the equal value in all humans, all professions, that in some way, shape or form, either directly or indirectly, add value to one another and to society. Now that's something to tout about.

Haha, you've got quite the imagination, especially for someone with a limited experience in the field. While I only recently matched in the field and am not even a full-fledged resident yet, I've spent considerably more time than you in the field with all my subinternships and recent neurosurgery interviews. I think it's most revealing that you started a thread asking about neurosurgery and then post something like this monstrosity above. I think psychiatry might best suit your apparent ability to analyze others. Best of luck to you in choosing your profession. Based on your comments throughout this thread, I do not think neurosurgery sounds like the right fit for you.

 

[45408]

If there's one thing I learned from this thread, it's that neurosurg attracts IMMENSE tools.

I wouldn't base your perception of a field from SDN. I like the neurosurgeons at my hospital, and I've worked with all of them quite a bit.

 

[Cello]

Yeah-your post really highlights your misunderstanding. See, you have this view that somehow your hard work is supposed to be paid off later with vacation or time for your hobbies, or some kind of religious promise, etc. Try to understand there are people who see the reward as the privilege of being in a position to carry out the hard work they're doing. They are proud of their work and do not see themselves as suffering. Certainly there are those who will burn out and realize that the sacrifice to have this privilege is not worth it any longer. But realize that you will never have the chance to go into a patient's room as their neurosurgeon and describe how you evacuated their loved one's subdural, effectively saving their life. Or the terrible news that their loved one will never recover. Or the chance alter someone's brain. In most specialties you will have the chance to share bad news, etc., but never at the depth and scale as in neurosurgery.

Was just browsing this thread and found it interesting. Also wanted to add to this, and say that what neurosurgeons do is not that different than monks. I mean, in the sense that they give up the vast majority of their lives in service to others. I suppose the key difference would be that neurosurgeons are typically well compensated for that service.

That said, if you are considering neurosurgery, you should look at it the same way you'd look at becoming a nun or a monk. You will devote your entire being to the cause, and you will make many personal sacrifices, all for your love and passion of your career. Thank God there are people out there willing to do neurosurgery, I know I could not, and OP, if you're wanting hobbies, and a life outside of work, like most of us mere mortals, then you should probably look elsewhere like most of us have as well!

Yes but a lot of people seem to have a "tool" rep for neurosurgeons at least on SDN. I'm not sure if this perception is even warranted or true. There are probably tools that are plumbers or pilots, but I don't think they have that reputation. Maybe SDN skews the perception of neuro surgeons too high on the tool spectrum or something.

Being the Student Doctor Network, we don't talk much about pilots or plumbers here.

 

[Chakrabs]

First off, I don't think there are any current residents (maybe 1) commenting on this thread. There are only a few graduating 4th years going into neurosurgery trying to answer why and how we were attracted to the field. If you think our reasons for being passionate about the field makes us "tools" so be it. I have respect for people going into other medical fields like IM or Gen Surg. I certainly couldnt do it - its actually too slow paced for me and it was agony just getting through relatively short days while I was rotating on those services. Gen surg was nice, but I wasnt thrilled about the anatomy involved, the types of patients and procedures done. In the end, Neurosurgery was the right choice for me.

Now my reasons for going into it are myriad, and I'd be lying if I didnt think the prestige associated with it wasnt a part of it. There's a reason only 190 students out of almost 30,000+ applicants are going into the field, its because it requires a certain personality and mindset to succeed in the field. Even then the washout rate is relatively high at around 10-20%. Its a difficult lifestyle - the junior neurosurgery resident is almost certainly the busiest person in the hospital. The patients are very sick, the outcomes not always pretty. And these days there is more and more competition from other fields competing for the same procedures, reimbursements are down, and malpractice premiums always rising. Still. this is my chosen profession, and I'll try my very best to defend its good name. Its obviously not for everyone and I can only offer my perspective. I've tried my best not to denigrate anyone else or their chosen profession (except for radiation oncologists, those pansies are so useless. Their techs and physicists do all the work anyway .Lets be civil here. If anyone has any substantive questions about neurosurgery and the lifestyle ask away.

 

[JackShephard MD]

nm

 

[KinasePro]

The patients are very sick, the outcomes not always pretty. And these days there is more and more competition from other fields competing for the same procedures, reimbursements are down, and malpractice premiums always rising. Still. this is my chosen profession, and I'll try my very best to defend its good name. Its obviously not for everyone and I can only offer my perspective. I've tried my best not to denigrate anyone else or their chosen profession (except for radiation oncologists, those pansies are so useless. Their techs and physicists do all the work anyway .Lets be civil here. If anyone has any substantive questions about neurosurgery and the lifestyle ask away.

Regarding competition for procedures, are you talking mostly about spine? I remember reading a similar thing in Katrina Firlik's book. She also seemed to believe that neurosurgery would become a smaller, less operative field in the next few decades. Is she full of sht or is there some truth to this?

 

[Non Pizza Lunch]

Regarding competition for procedures, are you talking mostly about spine? I remember reading a similar thing in Katrina Firlik's book. She also seemed to believe that neurosurgery would become a smaller, less operative field in the next few decades. Is she full of sht or is there some truth to this?

Actually I'm wondering this myself. Is there an increasing amount of competition for the same procedures and would it lead to the same crap that CT surgery has been going through with less procedures and decreased job outlooks?

 

[Creighton96]

So I'm really excited about pursuing a neurosurgery residency, but I can't possibly fathom the number of hours they put in each week. I read one survey that totaled their hours to 110 per week. That's barely enough time to eat and sleep without feeling rushed. It seems like 14-16 hour days with only 1 day off per week are the norm in neurosurgery. How do you mantain a normal life and do everything else: workout, raise kids, buy house, cook food, see movies, etc?

Or if you go into neurosurgery do you just have to accept the fact that your life will only be about neurosurgery any nothing else? Insight needed!

Unfortunately, if you want to be a neurosurgeon, or even a primary care physician a "normal" life is not possible? Residency training not only teaches you knowledge but it also helps you build endurance and stamina, if it were "easy" then there would be more people becoming neurosurgeons? Now a days, and its only going to get worse, working in medicine in any specialty requires at least 80+hrs a week, and that is primary care. Neurosurgeons as well as other specialties work even more hours, after figuring "call" Good luck.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Actually I'm wondering this myself. Is there an increasing amount of competition for the same procedures and would it lead to the same crap that CT surgery has been going through with less procedures and decreased job outlooks?

Probably talking about ortho, radonc, and interventional radiology, but I disagree that these fields are encroaching significantly a la IR/cards to CT surgery.

Unfortunately, if you want to be a neurosurgeon, or even a primary care physician a "normal" life is not possible? Residency training not only teaches you knowledge but it also helps you build endurance and stamina, if it were "easy" then there would be more people becoming neurosurgeons? Now a days, and its only going to get worse, working in medicine in any specialty requires at least 80+hrs a week, and that is primary care. Neurosurgeons as well as other specialties work even more hours, after figuring "call" Good luck.

This is patently false.

 

[mTOR]

Here's an nice post from uncleharvey by a then-resident/now-attending neurosurgeon at UVa:

" imagine years down the line when epidemics like obesity and hypertension could be treated neurosurgically. "

 

[KinasePro]

snip

You've heard of bariatric surgery, right? Instead of modifying the gut physiology, a neurosurgical intervention would be generating the illusion of satiety at a different point in the same pathway. Once we know more about the neurophysiology of hunger, maybe they'll be able to develop procedures to dampen its effect.

Doesn't seem that far-fetched to me, and if the success of bariatric surgery is any indication, there'd be one hell of a market for those procedures.

 

[duckie99]

First off, I don't think there are any current residents (maybe 1) commenting on this thread. There are only a few graduating 4th years going into neurosurgery trying to answer why and how we were attracted to the field. If you think our reasons for being passionate about the field makes us "tools" so be it. I have respect for people going into other medical fields like IM or Gen Surg. I certainly couldnt do it - its actually too slow paced for me and it was agony just getting through relatively short days while I was rotating on those services. Gen surg was nice, but I wasnt thrilled about the anatomy involved, the types of patients and procedures done. In the end, Neurosurgery was the right choice for me.

Now my reasons for going into it are myriad, and I'd be lying if I didnt think the prestige associated with it wasnt a part of it. There's a reason only 190 students out of almost 30,000+ applicants are going into the field, its because it requires a certain personality and mindset to succeed in the field. Even then the washout rate is relatively high at around 10-20%. Its a difficult lifestyle - the junior neurosurgery resident is almost certainly the busiest person in the hospital. The patients are very sick, the outcomes not always pretty. And these days there is more and more competition from other fields competing for the same procedures, reimbursements are down, and malpractice premiums always rising. Still. this is my chosen profession, and I'll try my very best to defend its good name. Its obviously not for everyone and I can only offer my perspective. I've tried my best not to denigrate anyone else or their chosen profession (except for radiation oncologists, those pansies are so useless. Their techs and physicists do all the work anyway .Lets be civil here. If anyone has any substantive questions about neurosurgery and the lifestyle ask away.

there were only 283 total applicants for the neurosurgery 2011 match...

Also I don't quite understand how you say general surgery is too slow paced. Neurosurgery operations are the slowest paced surgeries around. And for good reason too! Now if you are referring to the fact it lacks times of high adrenaline then I would agree that even on trauma surgery you usually don't have to run at full speed to the patient. I imagine that usually only occurs in NS when craniotomies or spinal decompressions are necessary... but I'm fairly certain general srugeons (trauma) can do carniotomies and I wouldn't be surprised if ortho can do spinal decompressions. Obviously in NS pts they won't (like if a post-op's brain is acutely herniating) but in general trauma cases they can.

I agree that fields like IM are far more slower paced but specialties within the field as a whole have lots of times where your heartbeat goes sky high like cardiology, critical care, etc. IR can be intense at times too. Also running into codes for patients on the floor who you thought were stable can give a good rush for general IM.

EM is pretty fast paced. OB can be pretty fast paced and exciting at times. Rushing a mom-to-be to the OR because of prolonged fetal distress is a huge rush.

I understand you chose NS because you like surgery, like neuroanatomy, like the problems you encounter in the field, and enjoy the prestige. That's all fine. But lots of other fields are really fast paced.

Also I hope you realize that when you walk around in scrubs no one knows you're a neurosurgeon and likely if they did know no one would even care. Maybe medicine floor nurses would think you're cool but when they find out you can't manage a hypertensive emergency or ACS they might change their mind. I know for certain I don't get a feeling of awe and wonder when I see any surgeon though you all think we do/should haha.

 

[45408]

Gen surg was nice, but I wasnt thrilled about the anatomy involved, the types of patients and procedures done. In the end, Neurosurgery was the right choice for me.

Bless you (seriously, lol). I hate listening to back pain complaints, odd neurological symptoms, looking at MRIs, and operating on patients in the prone position sucks. Positioning patients for neuro cases is the worst. Wire them up for evoked potentials, flip them prone, put them in pins, shave their head, drape the bejeezus out of the field, etc. (I know that you don't do all of those things for the same case necessarily, but you get the idea.)

Butts may not be glorious, but the complaints down there are a lot easier to sort out.

 

[Rothbard]

nm

 

[circulus vitios]

Dude, no offense, but you're sucking on the great, fat weenie that is neurosurgery. Get ready for a huge load sprayed all over your face, drenching your sleep, meals, free time, and occupation with the sole hope that maybe one day you will finally reach that level of happiness if you become a neurosurgeon, only to find out once you're there that what you've really been chasing after all these years has been deeper desire to simply respect yourself, which of course you won't because you place your value in external constructs and how others perceive you. But don't fear- you can start your road to self respect sooner by beginning to acknowledge the equal value in all humans, all professions, that in some way, shape or form, either directly or indirectly, add value to one another and to society. Now that's something to tout about.

 

[mjl1717]

Probably talking about ortho, radonc, and interventional radiology, but I disagree that these fields are encroaching significantly a la IR/cards to CT surgery.



This is patently false.

True ! If everyone had to work greater then 80 hours a week in medicine I do not think as many people would go into it....

 

[naus]

Here's a decent study of practicing surgeons' lifestyles across pretty much every sub-specialty with a decent sample size (n > 7600). They surveyed both PP and academia:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jamcollsurg.2010.06.393,

The paper is definitely worth a read. Here are some interesting factoids:

• 83% of neurosurgeons reported working less than 80 hrs/week, but only 28.4% work < 60 hrs/wk
• Neurosurgeons' lifestyles are very similar to pediatric, colorectal, surg onc and vascular surgeons.
• The study makes ortho look like a "lifestyle" specialty compared to ENT and Urology, with orthopods taking less call and 53% of them working <60 hrs/wk.
• It turns out that surgeons work really hard and burn out often, but ~78% are still working on their first marriage.

Ortho had an n=152 in this study, less than even neurosurg (n=183) and only 5% of gen surg (n=3100). Considering that there are 680 orthopedic surgery residency positions every year compared to 1100 general surgery positions (i.e., ortho is not a small specialty), I would take a HUGE grain of salt at the ortho data presented in this paper. I highly, highly doubt that 53% of orthopods work less than 60 hours a week.

 

[GreenStyle]

I really don't understand those who go into neurosurgery. But thank god these folks exist. Seems like one of those lifestyles that religion was created for so; i.e., you have some sort of rewarding afterlife to look forward to after you've sacrificed your life to endure suffering (to ostensibly alleviate suffering).


Kinda like suicide bombing. But the good kind. So kudos to the neurosurgeons, you'll get those 72 virgins one day

Lol!

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Lol... the misinformation in this thread is truly incredible. I am extremely confused as to why first and second year medical students are informing others as to how terrible neurosurgery residency lifestyle is -___-. I honestly think much of the fear of the specialty spreads from people who have never experienced it. Yes, the residency hours aren't as lax as say radiation-oncology, but they aren't so bad such that you have to make it your life... Residency for me averaged around 80 hours per week including call, some weeks more some weeks less (65-70). I had time for family. I had time to go out with friends. I had time to relax. I had at least two completely free weekends per month. It's all about prioritizing. Very few people I know in the field could say that neurosurgery has become their life. I work 60-70 hours now by choice. Some of my colleagues choose to work 80 hours still. Some choose to work 50 hours.

Also, contrary to popular belief (at least on this thread), most of us do not somehow feel that neurosurgery is more noble or requires more dedication than any other specialty. If you want to be a great doctor, regardless of your specialty, it takes dedication and passion. I chose neurosurgery because the surgeries were fun, the field is interesting, and I love the nature of the cases.

Lol and to respond to an earlier question... for surgeries longer than 16 hours, you rotate with other surgeons (like tag team). No bunk bed in the corner of the room to nap

 

[GreenStyle]

.

 

[GreenStyle]

Omg!! This is priceless.