How does your DCT handle the internship process?

[SkinnerBox]

Good morning! Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone would be willing to share how your DCT is working with you through the internship process. I am feeling frustrated by how things are going at my university, but wondering if my experience is more normative than I think it is. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Here is what we have been mandated to do:

• Procure DCT approval of our application site list (to include at least 5 APPIC sites, regardless of career ambitions); any subsequent changes must also be approved in writing prior to submission/deletion
• Procure DCT review and approval of all written materials
• Schedule numerous mock interviews (which were actually helpful and I would have done anyway)
• Notify DCT of any interview invitations (and schedule an interview if one is offered, even if it was with a site we were forced to apply to)
• Procure DCT approval of our rank-order lists

Additionally,

• Not providing complete information in a timely fashion is grounds for involuntary removal from the Match
• Anything that can be construed as preventing someone from matching (like turning down an interview) can be grounds for dismissal from the program should they not match

Thanks for your feedback!

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[PHD12]

Good morning! Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone would be willing to share how your DCT is working with you through the internship process. I am feeling frustrated by how things are going at my university, but wondering if my experience is more normative than I think it is. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Here is what we have been mandated to do:

• Procure DCT approval of our application site list (to include at least 5 APPIC sites, regardless of career ambitions); any subsequent changes must also be approved in writing prior to submission/deletion
• Procure DCT review and approval of all written materials
• Schedule numerous mock interviews (which were actually helpful and I would have done anyway)
• Notify DCT of any interview invitations (and schedule an interview if one is offered, even if it was with a site we were forced to apply to)
• Procure DCT approval of our rank-order lists

Additionally,

• Not providing complete information in a timely fashion is grounds for involuntary removal from the Match
• Anything that can be construed as preventing someone from matching (like turning down an interview) can be grounds for dismissal from the program should they not match

Thanks for your feedback!

I have never heard of anything this extreme. Sounds really frustrating. I am assuming this is a professional school that has a very low match rate? It is very unethical to force students to apply to at least 5 APPIC sites considering that APPIC will significantly limit your employment prospects in the future (e.g., No VA, military, or most post-doctoral sites). It is also unethical to dismiss students after they paid tuition for 4 years simply because they turned down an interview. Students in your program should consult a lawyer given these clear ethical violations.

Our DCT made good recommendations and wanted to see where we were applying, but aside from that we were not required to have her read anything or do mock interviews. We are also discouraged from applying to any APPIC sites, although there is no mandate.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It sounds like the program may be more concerned about their match rate than their students.... I would take significant issue with the first and last bullet points, but I was never one to not make my opinion known in grad school. Mock interviews and review (maybe not "approval") of your materials are both very good ideas. The points about declining interviews and being kicked out....that is the kind of stuff that can bite a program later on, whether it be in actual court or the kangaroo court of colleagues.

I have no idea how my program does it these days, though back when I applied (4-5yrs ago) any APPIC site needed to be approved by the DCT before any student was allowed to apply to it. I went to school in a very popular part of the country that offered a number of quality APA and APPIC sites locally, so this was the compromise made by the program for students who basically refused to leave the area. I *still* don't agree with that policy because allowing students to graduate w/o APA-acred internships is a huge roadblock in terms of competitiveness for jobs. Most programs back then (and still now?) make attending an APA-acred. internship a requirement to graduate their programs. With the internship crisis in full gear now, programs need to find more appropriate ways to address match issues.

 

[SkinnerBox]

It sounds like the program may be more concerned about their match rate than their students.....

Yes, that is my feeling as well. It is a professional PsyD program, that has historically had a relatively good match rate. Last year it was abysmal. This seems to me like an inappropriately emotional knee-jerk reaction to some poor choices and special situations in one year. Sadly, the faculty do not seem to see it that way.

Thanks for the feedback so far. Very validating.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Our DCT, at least in my personal experience, essentially issued rubber-stamp approval if our advisor felt that we were ready to be applying for internship (and assuming we'd met all departmentally-mandated milestones). Not sure how things were handled if our advisor or other faculty members had concerns about our level of preparation/readiness, though.

Edit: I would personally recommend reading through the APPIC guidelines regarding that last point (i.e., the DCT needing to sign off on your rank-order list). I'm not certain, but that just strikes me as something that would be against APPIC policy, or would at least be strongly discouraged. And at that point, what exactly happens if you don't get DCT approval? I don't think the DCT can actually prohibit you from submitting your list, and if they tried (or if they tried to use that as justification for holding you back a year), that's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yes, that is my feeling as well. It is a professional PsyD program, that has historically had a relatively good match rate. Last year it was abysmal. This seems to me like an inappropriately emotional knee-jerk reaction to some poor choices and special situations in one year. Sadly, the faculty do not seem to see it that way.

Thanks for the feedback so far. Very validating.

FWIW...I've heard a lot of programs have knee-jerk reactions to dipping match rates. I was very unsatisfied with the way my program "prepared" us for the Match (they had a couple of lunch-time presentations to talk about the process and then e-mailed updates about making sure to get things in). The match imbalance was happening, but the #'s weren't nearly as bad as they are now. I made it a point to seek out guidance from faculty I trusted for things like site choice, essay review, mock interviewing, etc.

 

[Pragma]

Wow, that sounds terrible.

My program was extremely supportive. Now the DCT did have to sign off on our stuff and we had some deadlines built in (e.g., dissertation proposal had to be done before they'd sign off on your app), but otherwise they gave us a fair amount of autonomy.

I restricted myself to one city and no one gave me any crap about it aside from genuine concern but also support for my decision (within my program - clinical supervisors, now that's a different story).

We had a mandatory series of presentations/discussions leading up to the application deadline that were very helpful. Recent graduates came and presented/gave advice. We all gave each other feedback on materials. We also vented, drank wine, and ate food at every meeting

Come interview and rank-order time, our department was very understanding. Now, our match rate is almost 100% (I can think of maybe 2 cases where there wasn't a match), but during my year there was one person who didn't. The DCT and entire clinical faculty got moving and helped that person find a suitable placement almost immediately. I recall one other non-match exception, and the faculty respected this person's decision to wait another year rather than accept clearinghouse offers they were not satisfied with.

I was very happy with my program's handling of internships. I am sorry to hear how it is done there - it sounds coercive and frustrating.

On a side note, I think this speaks directly to class sizes. In a funded PhD program like mine with maybe 5-10 intern applicants each year, I am sure the DCT can provide quality assistance. I'd imagine the DCT at FSPS with a huge class size has an extremely stressful job - in which case the strictness/treating people like children makes some sense. Interestingly, when I have viewed job listings in recent years, it seems the FSPS schools are almost always hiring someone who can be DCT (wonder why...). Just thinking about that type of job makes me cringe...

 

[Itseve]

while most of these steps seem to be geared towards helping you be prepared and not waiting until the last minute, and picking at least 5 appic sites somewhat makes sense, I'm concerned about the last one. "Procure DCT approval of our rank-order lists" - how would they even do this? and how can they even check you? I'm making the big assumption here that your school can't view your rank order- that only the computer knows?

 

[Ollie123]

Well that's a big pile of sketchiness, though sadly not surprising for a FSPS - far from the first time I've heard of them doing something like this.

For contrast, the issue is usually not programs forcing people to apply to APPIC sites. Its more common for schools to discourage people applying to those sites. We have to request special permission if we DO apply to APPIC sites, otherwise its APA or bust. Especially if this is a new policy I find it incredibly sketchy and yes, they could be opening themselves up to lawsuits. If someone's goal is to work in a VA, they invested a ton of money in school, and then four years in the school says "Rank sites that might not meet your career goals or we'll kick you out"...well I'm not a lawyer but that seems like it would be a pretty cut & dry win for the student and a whole mountain of trouble for the school.

Also agree with Pragma that some of this likely relates to class size. Its similar to the difference between undergrad and grad (at most schools) classes - when I have a 200 person lecture I have to be a good bit more rigid than I imagine I will with a 6 person grad class (not that I've taught one myself yet). Not to mention the fact that it likely means a less personal relationship with the faculty and likely less investment on their behalf to "make things work for you".

 

[Rivi]

Good morning! Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone would be willing to share how your DCT is working with you through the internship process. I am feeling frustrated by how things are going at my university, but wondering if my experience is more normative than I think it is. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Here is what we have been mandated to do:

• Procure DCT approval of our application site list (to include at least 5 APPIC sites, regardless of career ambitions); any subsequent changes must also be approved in writing prior to submission/deletion
• Procure DCT review and approval of all written materials
• Schedule numerous mock interviews (which were actually helpful and I would have done anyway)
• Notify DCT of any interview invitations (and schedule an interview if one is offered, even if it was with a site we were forced to apply to)
• Procure DCT approval of our rank-order lists

Additionally,

• Not providing complete information in a timely fashion is grounds for involuntary removal from the Match
• Anything that can be construed as preventing someone from matching (like turning down an interview) can be grounds for dismissal from the program should they not match

Thanks for your feedback!

That sounds insane to me. In my program, we have complete freedom to do what we want to do in terms of where to apply and who to withdraw from.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Well that's a big pile of sketchiness, though sadly not surprising for a FSPS - far from the first time I've heard of them doing something like this.

For contrast, the issue is usually not programs forcing people to apply to APPIC sites. Its more common for schools to discourage people applying to those sites. We have to request special permission if we DO apply to APPIC sites, otherwise its APA or bust. Especially if this is a new policy I find it incredibly sketchy and yes, they could be opening themselves up to lawsuits. If someone's goal is to work in a VA, they invested a ton of money in school, and then four years in the school says "Rank sites that might not meet your career goals or we'll kick you out"...well I'm not a lawyer but that seems like it would be a pretty cut & dry win for the student and a whole mountain of trouble for the school.

Also agree with Pragma that some of this likely relates to class size. Its similar to the difference between undergrad and grad (at most schools) classes - when I have a 200 person lecture I have to be a good bit more rigid than I imagine I will with a 6 person grad class (not that I've taught one myself yet). Not to mention the fact that it likely means a
less personal relationship with the faculty and likely less investment on their behalf to
"make things work for you".

I was surprised about the APPIC emphasis as well. We were not permitted to apply to non-APA sites and could not graduate without an APA internship. When you say APPIC, do you mean that they require you to apply to sites that are NON-APA or are we misreading?

Best,
Dr. E

 

[kyril]

Good morning! Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone would be willing to share how your DCT is working with you through the internship process. I am feeling frustrated by how things are going at my university, but wondering if my experience is more normative than I think it is. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Here is what we have been mandated to do:

• Procure DCT approval of our application site list (to include at least 5 APPIC sites, regardless of career ambitions); any subsequent changes must also be approved in writing prior to submission/deletion
• Procure DCT review and approval of all written materials
• Schedule numerous mock interviews (which were actually helpful and I would have done anyway)
• Notify DCT of any interview invitations (and schedule an interview if one is offered, even if it was with a site we were forced to apply to)
• Procure DCT approval of our rank-order lists

Additionally,

• Not providing complete information in a timely fashion is grounds for involuntary removal from the Match
• Anything that can be construed as preventing someone from matching (like turning down an interview) can be grounds for dismissal from the program should they not match

Thanks for your feedback!

Wow this is wild. We are encouraged to apply to 2 non APA sites and at least 20 programs, and we are asked to rank all the places we interviewed at, but there are no spelled out repercussions if we don't do those things. Most students in my program, which is in a very very competitive urban area, apply locally and so the 20 is to encourage them to apply to some out of the area. They offer to look at our materials but there is no punishment if we don't share them, and we don't have to get our ranking lists cleared--it's really our choice and our career. We have mandatory mock interviews but those are for our benefit and it is good of the faculty to participate. I would be po'd if I were you!