How hard are individual med school classes vs. UG classes?

[jacksweeds]

I'm not asking how is med school as a whole compared to UG. I realize its worlds more difficult. I'm just wondering about an individual class in med school vs. a tough UG course like orgo, mechanical engineering related courses, etc.

I've always been told the material in med school isn't hard, it's just the amount that makes things difficult. Trying to mentally prepare myself for what's ahead.

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[sinombre]

I don't have individual classes, just a whole bunch of lectures in each block (analogous to a quarter or semester in undergrad)... so there really is no other way to compare it to undergrad other than "as a whole." But I think just about everyone would agree that the material isn't particularly difficult, it's just significantly more information in a much shorter period of time.

 

[circulus vitios]

On our first block of classes, we averaged 30-40 slides of material per hour of lecture, with 12 (I think) hours of basic science lecture per week. I think the record was 60 slides in 1 hour. Each exam was on ~1500 slides of material.

 

[PhillyMed777]

Content: not more difficult
Rate: Insanely more difficult (I also have a 1.5 yr pre-clinical, which makes things much faster). I do not think i understood the idea of "volume" before getting here

 

[Roxas]

I'm not asking how is med school as a whole compared to UG. I realize its worlds more difficult. I'm just wondering about an individual class in med school vs. a tough UG course like orgo, mechanical engineering related courses, etc.

I've always been told the material in med school isn't hard, it's just the amount that makes things difficult. Trying to mentally prepare myself for what's ahead.

Our classes are set up as actual classes like in UG instead of blocks, so it's a little bit easier to compare the two. In most subjects, the material isn't any harder than in UG. Exception to this imo would be anatomy (much more difficult in med school than UG). Other classes here (like clinical medicine, behavioral medicine, OMM) are much easier than classes like G-chem, O-chem, or Genetics from UG.

As has been said above, it's the pace that kills you. In UG I would have 2-3 weeks to dick around before needing to start studying for an exam, but here at my school we have 1-2 exams every week so there's never any down time. There's ALWAYS an exam you need to be cramming for and it never. ever. stops.

 

[Roxas]

To further articulate, it's something like this:

 

[circulus vitios]

medschool.jpg

 

[MrChance2]

"The classes are easy, just like riding a bike, except the bike is on fire, and you're on fire, and everything is on fire, and you're in hell."

 

[a runner]

It depends where you did UG. At my UG, certain bio and chem classes were insanely hard with a class full of premeds averaging 50's and 60's on all the tests then being curved so the averages were 70-75% and maybe ~10% A's. This was a UG where most of the premeds matriculated into med school.

Med school was easier for me and required less time studying to get the same grades as in UG because the averages on tests were much higher, mid to high 80's usually.

 

[a runner]

Plus you don't have to do those stupid lab reports that take forever anymore.

 

[anbuitachi]

Of course it depends on what UG you went to and what Med school you go to. It also depends on UG major.

Assuming you are a science major at a top school, since thats what' most med students are, classes in medical school will be easier in terms of difficulty/content. In general in medical school, there is FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR more information and therefore even though the concepts are easy, the amount of time you spend on a class in med school will be more.

Personally as someone who prefers understanding concepts, I did much better in undergrad. Classes like physics didn't take that much effort because you just need to rememorize a few formulas and understand the big concepts, and you'll be able to solve the questions. Med school is not the same. you have to memorize tables and tables of minute details b/c the tests will test you on those tiny details. One example is drugs. You got to memorize side effects, mechanisms, clinical uses, etc etc, and that's just one part of medicine. If you love memorizing medical school is for you.

 

[anbuitachi]

Plus you don't have to do those stupid lab reports that take forever anymore.

Lab reports didn't take that long if you know what you are doing. My case reports in medical school takes just as long.

And also with grades, college was easier for me b/c it was curved. Just beat the mean... and you'll do fine. Med school for me is H HP P F system. A pass is a 2.0... so in the end almost everyone end up with lower gpa in med school here than college. But not that anyone really cares about med school gpa

 

[Ismet]

Moving to pre-allo

 

[Meh.meh]

I'm not asking how is med school as a whole compared to UG. I realize its worlds more difficult. I'm just wondering about an individual class in med school vs. a tough UG course like orgo, mechanical engineering related courses, etc.

I've always been told the material in med school isn't hard, it's just the amount that makes things difficult. Trying to mentally prepare myself for what's ahead.

If you've taken graduate level biology classes before, the difficulty is comparable, although the emphasis is very different.

I've never been an engineer, so it's hard for me to make comparisons there. One of my siblings was a chem. E who went to med. school, and she felt that the classes were "different kinds of difficult." It seems like engineering presents difficult concepts and problems, while pre-clinical medicine presents a massive pool of information.

I've heard similar sentiments from other engineers.


From a personal stand point, I can tell you I felt the first year or so was relatively "easy." It grinds you down though: I've been having more issues lately. The material hasn't gotten any more difficult, I've jut been running low on fuel.

If you keep picking yourself up, and keep adapting your strategy, you'll be fine.

 

[Bamfu]

Yeah, you've heard it already - the problem isn't difficulty. The problem is volume and the near certainty that you will have to teach yourself almost everything. I never really had to do that before.

We're scheduled into organ blocks, and each 1-2 week period between exams feels like an entire undergrad semester of a single difficult class. Our cumulative finals are always NBME exams. I die a little every time I have to take one, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[Meh.meh]

Of course it depends on what UG you went to and what Med school you go to. It also depends on UG major.

Assuming you are a science major at a top school, since thats what' most med students are, classes in medical school will be easier in terms of difficulty/content. In general in medical school, there is FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR more information and therefore even though the concepts are easy, the amount of time you spend on a class in med school will be more.

Personally as someone who prefers understanding concepts, I did much better in undergrad. Classes like physics didn't take that much effort because you just need to rememorize a few formulas and understand the big concepts, and you'll be able to solve the questions. Med school is not the same. you have to memorize tables and tables of minute details b/c the tests will test you on those tiny details. One example is drugs. You got to memorize side effects, mechanisms, clinical uses, etc etc, and that's just one part of medicine. If you love memorizing medical school is for you.

I mostly agree with this, but I think that it's more "if you love memorizing, pre-clinical medical school is for you!"
I think the actual practice/clinical years are more about applying our memorized base. Could be way off though.

 

[anbuitachi]

I mostly agree with this, but I think that it's more "if you love memorizing, pre-clinical medical school is for you!"
I think the actual practice/clinical years are more about applying our memorized base. Could be way off though.

Both. There is a ton of memorizing in third and 4th year as well, just memorizing different things. (symptoms, differentials, which diagnosis to do first, side effects, different algorithms, exceptions to the rules etc). You have to memorize all those for exams, etc. You don't neccessarily have to memorize as much in the hospital since you can google... and things aren't as specific.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Former Mechanical Engineer here,

Two very different kinds of hard. In engineering the concepts being presented took about 10-20 minutes of lecture, the rest was up to you to put in hours and hours of solving problems and applying the concepts every which way possible to do well on the exam. It was more of an exercise in self discipline and will power to keep working more problems. Also, there was almost nothing to memorize outside of a few equations.

Med School so far (1st semester MS1) is more like 50-80 slides an hour, memorizing everything on every slide, realizing that that's impossible then hoping your sample matches the professors sample. You could literally study every spare hour of every day and not learn every detail that's presented. It's challenging and not especially fun for those of us who never learned how, or had to, memorize tons of information. However, it's much more interesting than Thermo, Fluids, or Machine Design.

Ochem is a breeze for engineering students. Only premeds struggle with Ochem because they think they can learn it like they learn biology. Engineer majors know you have to treat Ochem like physics, so they work a hundred problems and set the curve. It's not a good class to compare to Med School.

 

[snowflakes]

It's difficult because of the rate and volume and sheer mindlessness of some subjects. My undergrad major was conceptually focused, so I almost never had to memorize things. Classes like physics and chemistry were easier for me because there was a logic to them, and once I figured out that logic, there was nothing I had to memorize. Med school has been challenging for me because I'm not good at memorizing, and while being able to think conceptually and logically helps to some extent, being a good memorizer is probably far more helpful.

Depth is sometimes not as broad as undergrad either, but breadth is higher. For example, certain cell signalling pathways I covered in undergrad and med school--the undergrad version of it was far more detailed and we were expected to know more specifics of the mechanism. Now, we cover these pathways in less detail (perhaps we'll come back to them in more detail later?) but cover a lot lot more of these pathways.

Also, we have exams much more often. In undergrad we had finals once a semester so they weren't that draining. Here, we have "finals" (a set of 3-4 exams over 2-4 days) every 4-6 weeks, which gets draining. Also there are some emotional aspects that are draining as well--you meet a lot of people and hear their stories, and sometimes they really stick with you and weigh you down. Our professors have emphasized the importance of putting these types of feelings aside when you go home so it doesn't drain you in your personal life, but it's hard to learn to draw that line.

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

During my orientation week, I remember the M2s giving the advice "just know everything and you'll be fine." At the time, I thought they were joking. Turns out they weren't.

We take only one class at a time, so I have a small sample size for comparison as an M1, but here are some differences between my undergrad and med school experiences:

Undergrad anatomy: A whole semester to cover the structures in the body, prosected cadavers, and we ignored the brain all but the very largest blood vessels and nerves.
Med school anatomy: 9 weeks to cover structures in the body, literally in one of the lectures we covered over a week's worth of material from my undergrad course, a dissector + a cadaver and the expectation you won't cut anything important despite the fact you have no experience doing this kind of thing, and memorizing all structures down to the smallest named blood vessels and nerves.

Undergrad biochem: Conceptually based with minimal memorization (the expected citric acid cycle and glycolysis). Lots of detail about signal transduction.
Med school biochem: Memorize all the metabolic pathways but no exam question is directly about any of them. Memorize 108 obscure metabolic diseases in 2 weeks and be prepared to give the biochemical basis of the disease given a set of symptoms (and potentially lab results).

Undergrad genetics: Lots and lots of minutiae about bacterial and yeast genetics. Lots of detail about the machinery for transcription and translation.
Med school genetics: Almost completely human only, ignoring transcription and translation assuming everyone already knows everything about it from undergrad. Mostly talking about genetics in terms of consequences and diseases of mutations.

Sorry that was so long. Bottom line is, it's a lot of info but almost everyone gets through it to graduate. You figure out a way to stuff it all in your mind, and in my experience with practice you can get better at memorizing so you can look at something fewer times to make it stick.

 

[Holmwood]

What about PBL? I'm still confused about how that actually works.

 

[AlteredScale]

What about PBL? I'm still confused about how that actually works.

https://medicine.mercer.edu/admissions/md/information/problem-based-learning/

Check the video! It's a good explanation!

 

[NickNaylor]

What about PBL? I'm still confused about how that actually works.

Every curriculum will vary, but in effect there's usually some kind of case-based discussion where topics are introduced in the context of the clinical case. Usually you'll have to do preparation for the session prior to the actual day so that you're prepared and able to contribute to the discussion. This is the basis of the learning: you essentially work your way through a case based on the research you (and the other members of your group did) the day prior. There's a faculty mentor who guides the discussion and hopefully ensures that the main teaching points for the case are made.

That's a very rough description of it anyway.

 

[Goro]

This sounds very close to what my students have to deal with! Circulos, you're not one of mine, are you?

Here's another perspective: see this chart? You have to know most of it (but forget the Krebs cycle...there's no reason on earth why a medical student needs to know the Krebs cycle). Every pre-med who did summer research with us scoffed when I pointed to this chart and told them that they had to know it. When they came to see me after their first year at the emd school, they sheepishly admitted that they did.

And for a decent chunk of this, you also have to know the metabolic and other diseases that pop out of it when there's a defect in the pathway. Who can find lysosomal storage diseases here?

On our first block of classes, we averaged 30-40 slides of material per hour of lecture, with 12 (I think) hours of basic science lecture per week. I think the record was 60 slides in 1 hour. Each exam was on ~1500 slides of material.

 

[WillburCobb]

...but forget the Krebs cycle...there's no reason on earth why a medical student needs to know the Krebs cycle...

But, but, how will I ever know how to diagnose fumarase deficiency?!

 

[Goro]

By specializing in Medical Genetics. or Neurology!

But, but, how will I ever know how to diagnose fumarase deficiency?!

 

[FutureOncologist]

This was my reaction to when we had to learn apoptosis and all the other biochemical pathways.

 

[circulus vitios]

Learning molecular and biochemical pathways was 10x easier than learning anatomy...

 

[NickNaylor]

This sounds very close to what my students have to deal with! Circulos, you're not one of mine, are you?

Here's another perspective: see this chart? You have to know most of it (but forget the Krebs cycle...there's no reason on earth why a medical student needs to know the Krebs cycle). Every pre-med who did summer research with us scoffed when I pointed to this chart and told them that they had to know it. When they came to see me after their first year at the emd school, they sheepishly admitted that they did.

And for a decent chunk of this, you also have to know the metabolic and other diseases that pop out of it when there's a defect in the pathway. Who can find lysosomal storage diseases here?

I actually had the multipage poster version of this chart. It took up most of my bedroom walls back in the day. Pretty awesome chart.

 

[Sassafrass23]

I agree about the volume thing. We literally did a semester of UG biochem in less than a week in med school.

The difference for me was the depth of the courses. We aren't tested on whether or not you know the specifics of every pathway. It's all clinically oriented. So having a broader overview of the pathways and understanding what happens when something goes wrong or some enzyme is missing is much more important. Sure, knowing the specifics helps but so far I've avoided the details and have been doing great.

Different story for anatomy. Details matter and it all sucks.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Different story for anatomy. Details matter and it all sucks.

Speaking truth.

 

[CyberMaxx]

Like everyone has said, for the most part it is the rate of the material that makes it more difficult, but I would also add that the stakes of medical school adds to the perceived difficulty.

In undergad I knew that if I didn't ace every test or every class, it wasn't a big deal. As long as my GPA stayed above x I would be competitive for medical school. Now that I'm in medical school and want to pursue a competitive specialty it is much more important that I consistently do well because A. what your learning actually matters, B. you want to build a solid foundation which you can build on come Step 1, and C. you want to stay towards the top of your class if possible to help with a stellar deans letter/AOA eligibility.

If you weren't concerned about matching competitively med school would be much less difficult. The difference between passing and scoring very well on an exam is pretty large and would equal a lot more free time and a lot less stress.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Speaking truth.

 

[jacksweeds]

Thanks for all that great feedback.

I guess I'm semi-relieved (though that chart is giving me anxiety Goro); I've always considered myself great at memorizing facts. I was 95%+ on nearly every test in physiology, anatomy, neuro, etc. because flash cards work extremely well for me and I'm also a very fast reader. Does it make sense to think med school coursework should be pretty suited to my learning style?

 

[Meh.meh]

Thanks for all that great feedback.

I guess I'm semi-relieved (though that chart is giving me anxiety Goro); I've always considered myself great at memorizing facts. I was 95%+ on nearly every test in physiology, anatomy, neuro, etc. because flash cards work extremely well for me and I'm also a very fast reader. Does it make sense to think med school coursework should be pretty suited to my learning style?

Hard to say. Undergrad exams != graduate class exams. I think flashcards are a little time consuming at this level of volume, but I've seen people make them work. Look into Anki, it might be good for you.

If memorization is your thing, you'll probably be good. Understanding is pretty damn important too though

 

[lmn]

Learn how to learn efficiently, I see many of my classmates that were used to studying for hours and hours for each and every class in undergrad struggle because of the volume of material and trying to apply those old, now ineffective tactics to the new pace. Other than that, you just have to learn to keep doing a little at a time and finding ways to continuously review that without spending hours and hours going over it each time.

I'm only a first year, but with a few big classes already done I can so far say that the level of depth is quite often less than if you took specialized classes in undergrad. The difference is that you go through weeks of material in a maybe an hour or two's worth of lecture time. No idea how second year is, but at least for first year if you can work efficiently and effectively, you actually will have a ton of free time to live your life, hang out with friends, research/whatever you want.