How important are clerkship grades for matching into top IM programs?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Jason26

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2003
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
I'm an American grad w/ a 247 on the Step 1 and mostly Sats (equivalent of pass) in almost all my third year clearkships with the exception of Internal Medicine where I got a High Sat and possibly Peds, but the grade isn't in yet. I have a Master's degree, but no hardcore research experience and my LoR's are probably decent. With these stats, would anyone be able to estimate my chances of getting an interview for IM at Cornell or Columbia? What about NYU, Einstein, and Mt. Sinai?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Just curious-- why do you think you didn't snag any honors in your clinical rotations? You are obviously a smart guy. I think that top programs will wonder the same thing and you should probably address this to some degree in your PS.

MadC
 
I don't think I got any Honors grades because 1) they were simply very difficult to get and 2) I was a transfer student from a foreign medical school where my clinical preparation wasn't as good as the students already there and it took me awhile to catch up. My written exam grades were also not as good as I usually do because I didn't have the luxury of staying home all day to study as in 2nd year. The average day on a rotation was 11 hours long. Anyway, I don't like making excuses for myself but those are the reasons.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
You should be able to get an interview at most of these programs.The einstein- montefiore program is not as competitive as the others although it has a good reputation.The einstein Jacobi program has IMGs and not too difficult.
 
HI,

I am only a third year, but I would assume that your LORs would take on more importance. If you have strong letters, along with your awesome Step 1 score, I don't think there is anything to worry about.
 
Just curious-- why do you think you didn't snag any honors in your clinical rotations? You are obviously a smart guy. I think that top programs will wonder the same thing and you should probably address this to some degree in your PS.

--I think how smart students are makes little difference. I know plenty of really smart students when I was in school who didn't get honors because of multiple reasons...they didn't play the "game", they didn't kiss enough anus, etc. Just one of the reasons I think the system is terribly flawed. On the flip, I know some really mediocre students who played the game very well, greased all the right wheels, and really puckered up nicely to the right anus'...honors they did receive.
 
Originally posted by DR
--I think how smart students are makes little difference. I know plenty of really smart students when I was in school who didn't get honors because of multiple reasons...they didn't play the "game", they didn't kiss enough anus, etc. Just one of the reasons I think the system is terribly flawed. On the flip, I know some really mediocre students who played the game very well, greased all the right wheels, and really puckered up nicely to the right anus'...honors they did receive.

That is damn right. It's all about "playing the game."

Which is sad because almost everyone learns how to play it at the end, and just that those who knows the system in the beginning or those who have a head start will have such a big advantage. And supposedly your 3rd year performance is so important, but really everyone is just a neophyte at that stage. The reality is, barring some real anal gunner or real bad slackers, nobody really knows so much more than anyone else, or really perform so much better than anyone else, but somehow, the school has to stratify the class. How do you stratify a group of students when everyone is just a beginner? Enter sucking up, kissing a$$, and stroking the egos of key persons. You can be brilliant relative to your class, but the attending or resident can still give you an ok, but not honors grade. But you can be only above average or sometimes even mediocre student, but play lots of politics, and end up working a less but getting the same if not better grade. I think that is just the way subjective evaluations work. This is what happens if you combine subjective evaluations and a group of medical students, who are obviously anal retentive and consciencious.
 
Thanks for all the input. I probably did not the play the game right until the end of the year. I guess the question now is, do program directors realize its very political? And, will I get a Columbia or Cornell interview with my aforementioned credentials and solid LoR's? Any input will be much appreciated. Thanks.
 
My internal medicine chairperson told me that Cornell and Columbia are very fickle about who they decide to interview, top students from my school have gotten interviews at schools with better reputations and been turned down for interviews at Cornell and Columbia. My advice would be to simply apply and see what happens. It's only money. If you feel that you must go to Cornell or Columbia, I'd recc doing an audition rotation there. I wouldn't fixate on just a few programs though, there are a lot of solid programs in NYC.
 
clerkship grades have an element of subjectivity that can misrepresent many of the more important qualities of the student as they relate to their ability to perform successfully during residency. my med school calculates your clerkship score based on an objective shelf exam (33%) and subjective clerkship performance (66%). when i rotated on the medicine service, i worked incredibly hard, worked up all my admits, always carried more than 2 patients which was the "limit" imposed on students by the clerkship director, did all my dictations, and tried to help anyone i could. on the other hand, one of the "intellectual stars" in my class who rotated at the same time did the minimum the entire time. she did no dications (requiring the intern to do them 1 month later from the chart- he was pissed!), rarely did admissions, never carried more than 2 patients, and at every opportunity tried to get out of work. she rocked the shelf exam and i did fair on it (score = 68). nonetheless, she got outstanding (highest grade) and i got proficient (our lowest passing grade). this taught me that these grades do not always reflect or reward hard work and it is important to be careful when dealing with attendings, residents, and other students. and no i am not bitter. :laugh:
 
What role do your marks on shelf exams play in the residency admission process other than adding to your rotation mark? They are not sent to your programs, are they? If so, by whom?
 
It is always upsetting to get low grades after working so hard on a rotation and loses to politics. I bet EVERYONE has that experience because no one can play politics day in and day out although some people are more proficient at it.

That's why my advice is always:
1) work as hard as you can with the main goal being to learn

2) be respectful and helpful when the service is busy

3) get out of there when residents do not need you around

4) try to learn from the pts so you get most out of your clinical rotations and not too worried about your shelf exam until the last week or two.

5) if all else fails, just make yourself happy without slipping out and make your classmates take care of your **** (which happens).

In the end, it does not matter what grade you get just as long as you were happy and you actually learned.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Originally posted by Hop Toad
What role do your marks on shelf exams play in the residency admission process other than adding to your rotation mark? They are not sent to your programs, are they? If so, by whom?

I think that my school puts the shelf exam scores on your transcript...unfortunately.
 
at my school, I heard the shelf exam is worth 15% of the evaluation. Even though its true that 3rd year is about butt-licking, this is probably not the entirety of it. Its still about hard work and dedication and taking care of pts while learning. So even though the system is very imperfect, its not like the most dominant players will be the best butt-lickers. Usually it takes a combination of butt-licking, hardwork, clinical skills & knowledge to succeed in medicine.

just my 2 cents
 
Originally posted by unregistered
at my school, I heard the shelf exam is worth 15% of the evaluation. Even though its true that 3rd year is about butt-licking, this is probably not the entirety of it. Its still about hard work and dedication and taking care of pts while learning. So even though the system is very imperfect, its not like the most dominant players will be the best butt-lickers. Usually it takes a combination of butt-licking, hardwork, clinical skills & knowledge to succeed in medicine.

just my 2 cents

Yea, and this "combination" is the key.

If you just simply and plainly outworked everyone (ie. "students aren't part of the 80 hour rule, are we?") and have good clinical skills and are independent and even kicked ass on the shelf exam to boot, sometimes it feels painful to watch someone who worked less hard than you, read less than you, did worse than you on exam, who just dive their nassal prominence into the nearest attending/chief's gluteal cleft at every turn, saying sickening things, and end up with better eval than you. The most dominant player on the 3rd year circus are those who have some knowledge, knows how to talk and present well, and wouldn't shut the F@#K up.
 
Our end of rotation exams are worth 75% vs the actual rotation eval - 25%. It sucks a$$, if you ask me.

Just thought I'd get a little gripe in there.
 
Originally posted by kristing
Our end of rotation exams are worth 75% vs the actual rotation eval - 25%. It sucks a$$, if you ask me.

Just thought I'd get a little gripe in there.

I woulda made A++++ in medicine if that's what my department do... :) I rocked that little sukka quite hard. But only worth 20% for us... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Originally posted by Renovar
I woulda made A++++ in medicine if that's what my department do... :) I rocked that little sukka quite hard.

any advice on books to use during med rotations to do well on the shelf?
 
any advice on books to use during med rotations to do well on the shelf?

I used NMS, recall, and Appleton and Lange review. I found these to be helpful (NMSis boring but complete) and did quite well on the shelf 88 raw.

Concerning ASS kissing I too feel victim. On my Gen med block I had a resident who always seemed to busy to fool with a mere med student, who told me I was doing well, but gave me a mediocre eval. I also had an attending who was in love with the other student on the rotation as he gave constant nasal to anal stimulation. I am at Uva which is still very old school and recieved a B+ despite outstanding evals on the specialties half of the rotation, and a good shelf score. I have never been able to lower myself to ass kissing, but I have learned from my experience, that an occasional well founded complement to a superior helps.
 
i used first aid medicine and pretest medicine and found that more than adequate to get a good shelf score. some of my classmates used pretest physical diagnosis, nms and blueprints and they found them ok.
 
Originally posted by kcrd
any advice on books to use during med rotations to do well on the shelf?

I blue-printed twice, NMS on selected topics, read over our manditory lecture notes, read over our clerkship director's key point handouts, do MKSAP 2 for students (a question book written by clerkship directors of internal medicine and published by American College of Physicians - GREAT question book, exactly shelf-level and shelf-style question with references and explanations. I can remember some questions come straight off that, or is just a spin-off of that book, kind of expensive at 50 bucks but HIGHLY worth it if rocking the test is your goal), and know enough about EKG's, CXR's and lab diagnosis. 97 on the exam. (which is weighted to 80% NBME and 20% home-made multi-part essay questions.)
 
any advice on how to "play the game?" and how to "kiss anus?"
 
Originally posted by profunda
any advice on how to "play the game?" and how to "kiss anus?"

Sorry man, those things can't be taught. Not publicly, at least... :)

OK, Maybe I've misspoken. It's not really truly ass-kissing per say, but more like knowing when do say the right thing or do the right thing at the right time. Everyone should have at least some common-sense social skills (ie. to small-talk with your attending about their kids or their dog during coffee rounds, or talk some fantasy football or watch Friends with your resident on call nights, etc.) and those will invariably show up on your "professionalism" and "communication" grade. Always pull papers, run errands, buy pizza/soda/coffee for team when you are on call (and not bug them for owing you money), look up labs, follow-up consults for your team, that will get your "ability to retrieve information" grade. If on your subI you noticed your call-room has only 1 bed, always sleep on the floor and give the bed to the intern, that will earn you some "Good team player" points. This is "playing the game." As you can see above, a lot of those things are "intangibles" that has nothing to do with medicine. These are just things third/fourth year will teach you. It's not something that can be taught.

True ass kissers need to have good communication skills and do all of the above well, and above all else, never, ever say anything in contrary to the attending. Ie. if on rounds the attending curses the cards consult for not admitting a patient to the CCU (and hence off your team's list) for one of the patients under your care, an ass kisser would denounce cards and say how much they are compromising patient care, and praise the attending for truly caring for the patient, and how the patient's health is badly affected if he is not admitted to the CCU and it's all card's fault, blah blah blah. If the attending is saying something positive about himself, ie. he just got a paper published in XYZ journal, always praise about his achievement and stroke his ego, etc. Works much better if you are a pretty female and dealing with a middle-age male attending. I am not a good ass kisser so I can't give you more examples, but you get the drift. Note, if you do this in front of other students, you will be public enemy #1 if you do it too much.
 
Renovar has given some outstanding advice on the finer not-so-subtle subtleties of sphincter-smooching. Coming from a school whose clerkship evals are entirely subjective, I do believe -- based on hearsay from other classmates of mine -- that he's right insofar as following his recommendations might increase one's chances of getting a decent eval on the subjective part of a clerkship grade, provided that your fellow classmates don't pull a Jasper, Texas, on you first.

However, -- not to be idealistic here, but -- at the start of my first month of medicine, our clerkship director basically went through a list of what our goals and responsibilities should be for this clerkship, and then at the end of his schpiel (sp) he said: "Of course, if you truly care about your patients, and you let your care of them guide your work, then you can forget everything I just said, because you'll get an honors, and our attendings and residents are trained to be able to spot this." All right, so in a way it's a bunch of crap, because while the rest of us are standing with open mouths waiting for that bout of diarrhea to splat us on the face, the ass-kisser puckers right up and wins the corn kernel. But I've done well in my clerkships so far, despite not being an ass-kisser, despite arguing with my residents and attendings when I disagreed with them. One of my pathology residents once said something I'll never forget -- one of the best gems I've heard in recent times: "Unless you're a super-genius, people aren't going to remember you for how much you know, but for how much fun you were to work with." Bingo -- I really think that's the key. If you're a lug, or if you're an arrogant prick, or if every square millimeter of you drips with the smell of your attending's colonic mucosa, then good luck to you, because you'll probably need it. But if you're fun to be with and enthusiastic about whatever rotation you're on, then things should turn out okay.
 
In the beginning I had a really hard time keeping my mouth shut when I thought something was being overlooked or had literature in my knowledge base that the person in charge seemed to not have. I soon found out the tight rope that you walk in offering up any of this information. It was truly a balancing act and I'm sure the patients suffered at times because of the political games you have to play.

I did use some type of supplemental literature for every rotation that gave me a solid base for each rotation. At my school the exam counts for a differing % of the final grade from rotation to rotation. I had NO CLUE that these marks were going to be blatantly listed in my Dean's Letter. I mostly did not study for these exams, but luckily had enriched my education enough on my own to do well. If you show you know the information well by scoring high (95-99 percentile) on your shelf exams, they really can not pull subjective crap and not give you the grade you deserve. Unless you are a total social misfit and step on way too many toes.
 
Originally posted by Hop Toad
If you show you know the information well by scoring high (95-99 percentile) on your shelf exams, they really can not pull subjective crap and not give you the grade you deserve. Unless you are a total social misfit and step on way too many toes.

I must say that this is not true at my school. Most of our rotations are weighted about 80% eval and 20% board. You can score a 99 on your board and not even come close to an honors if you get a bad evaluation.
 
Originally posted by johnd
I must say that this is not true at my school. Most of our rotations are weighted about 80% eval and 20% board. You can score a 99 on your board and not even come close to an honors if you get a bad evaluation.

Not at my school as well. You can get 110 percentile on the test for all the clerkship director cares and all you need is 2 or 3 B+ overall ratings from the 10 or so possible evaluators and your overall grade will be B+. (we had 3 mini rotations within medicine, and each team has resident/intern/attending evaluation, plus clinics and small group evaluations.) If you do have the luxury/skills/mojo or whatever to pull all 10 A's, there is this stipulation that you must score higher than my class' average (which runs between 60-70th percentile nationally) to receive an A, but this is by far the easy part.
 
Thank you guys for the input. Hope I will be a natural, and will update you all on my clerkship progress if anyone gets interested.
 
if you help your residents admit patients from the ED and do ICU calls in your spare time, then the IM shelf shoud be cake, ie no reading at all, except for 2 chapters (rheum and heme-onc)
 
Top