How Important is Research?

[Postictal Raiden]

I am really debating wether or not I should spend this upcoming summer doing research (assuming I don't have to remediate anything ). The only type of research available to apply to at this point is bench research. This is something I greatly dislike, and would really prefer doing something else, like shadowing. However, I don't want to regret this when time comes to applying for residency. The application deadline to apply for summer research opportunities at my school is approaching and I need to make a decision.

As of now, I'm not sure what I am going to pursue, but I have a pretty much good idea about what I DON'T want to do. I don't think I will be applying to any surgical specialty or other notoriously competitive fields (RadOnc and Derm). However, I'd still prefer to have the credentials to be competitive for academic ACGME programs. Assuming I end up applying to either IM, EM, Gas, Neuro, or Psych, how badly do I need to have some research experience and publications on my CV?

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[AlbinoHawk DO]

You can always do OMM research with Fraix. I know you're gung-ho about it.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

You can always do OMM research with Fraix. I know you're gung-ho about it.

Yeah Ibn, do OMM research.

 

[DrEnderW]

People may disagree with this, but I say do it.

Your app will only be better with research and publications. If you don't have solid past experience, this will help you secure higher quality positions in medical school. Who knows, you may end up liking learning about a specific area in your field of interest. Clinical research is very different from basic and teaches you a lot about a specialty, both academically and in terms of exposure/networking.

I'm obviously a huge proponent of research, but it's not mandatory. Like anything else, it's another piece of the puzzle. People match well without it, but for moderate effort, it's something that can impact your future. It's way easier than getting a 250, getting clinical honors, and staying top of your class. In my opinion, I'd make the easy play.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Yeah Ibn, do OMM research.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I would personally stay away from OMM research if you're possibly interested in semi-competitive ACGME positions. I could be very wrong, but I believe some people would not see OMM research (esp if you end up publishing in JAOA) as being as rigorous as work in other fields.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I would personally stay away from OMM research if you're possibly interested in semi-competitive ACGME positions. I could be very wrong, but I believe some people would not see OMM research (esp if you end up publishing in JAOA) as being as rigorous as work in other fields.

I'm messing with him. Hopefully he knows that.

 

[AlteredScale]

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I would personally stay away from OMM research if you're possibly interested in semi-competitive ACGME positions. I could be very wrong, but I believe some people would not see OMM research (esp if you end up publishing in JAOA) as being as rigorous as work in other fields.

You mean a first author in JAOA won't let me do rad onc at MD Anderson?! ;p

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I'm messing with him. Hopefully he knows that.

Haha sorry, didn't pick up on that! I have some classmates who are seriously into OMM so... I try not to thumb my nose at it too much.

 

[meliora27]

You mean a first author in JAOA won't let me do rad onc at MD Anderson?! ;p

JAOA impact factor = 0.0 (not joking)

http://www.researchgate.net/journal/0098-6151_The_Journal_of_the_American_Osteopathic_Association

 

[AlteredScale]

JAOA impact factor = 0.0 (not joking)

Bold = face PDs make when they see this journal on your CV

Honestly this is a good question: publication in JAOA better than no publications at all?

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Bold = face PDs make when they see this journal on your CV

Honestly this is a good question: publication in JAOA better than no publications at all?

Certainly! It's still peer-reviewed.

Plus I believe they actually don't have/calculate an impact factor currently (as opposed to being a 'real' zero). I just don't think they're indexed in the JCR. Since I'm sure there's plenty of circle-jerk citing that goes on in the OMM community, they would certainly have something of an IF.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Haha sorry, didn't pick up on that! I have some classmates who are seriously into OMM so... I try not to thumb my nose at it too much.

Yeah, it's an inside joke.

 

[hallowmann]

If you do it, it'll look good/be valuable. Really look into fellowships and things that lead to clinical research. I thought everything was benchwork in 1st year, until I heard about all these programs over the summer where people were able to do clinical research. You actually need to cold-call or go in and meet people for this though. Stuff that's readily apparent online is either already filled up or might be tough to get.

In any case, if you don't do it, its not the end of the world. I have research/pubs from right before med school, so I decided to just have a nice vacation doing (almost) all the things I promised my wife we would do, visiting friends, family, etc. I guess I could've been more productive, but I'm trying to really ramp up ECs and research this year and in 3rd year, so hopefully it won't be a big deal.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

If you do it, it'll look good/be valuable. Really look into fellowships and things that lead to clinical research. I thought everything was benchwork in 1st year, until I heard about all these programs over the summer where people were able to do clinical research. You actually need to cold-call or go in and meet people for this though. Stuff that's readily apparent online is either already filled up or might be tough to get.

In any case, if you don't do it, its not the end of the world. I have research/pubs from right before med school, so I decided to just have a nice vacation doing (almost) all the things I promised my wife we would do, visiting friends, family, etc. I guess I could've been more productive, but I'm trying to really ramp up ECs and research this year and in 3rd year, so hopefully it won't be a big deal.

I'm also taking research pretty easy my first couple years due to some work I did before med school -- though granted my work is still more serious than most of my classmates who aren't even considering research. I talked to our D.O., Ph.D. program/research program director who said that the most important factor that residencies tend to consider when it comes to research is having some to show that you understand the process... and exactly what you do the research in and exactly when it is doesn't matter quite so much.

I asked because I was curious about how important it is to have research in a specific specialty of interest. He told me repeatedly that it didn't matter what discipline your research was in (his thoughts were 1: interests change a lot, 2: it's silly to limit yourself so strictly) as long as you had some... but I still stubbornly kind of don't believe him. Meh.

 

[DrMaximus]

but I still stubbornly kind of don't believe him. Meh.

It's good to know I'm not the only one who does that.

As far as research goes, it definitely can't hurt you to have it. I think it's very program dependent on how hard they look for it or favor it. Big academic research centers are going to love it a lot more than small community programs. Also, with that said, I don't think it's always a big flaming mark of shame on your CV to not have it either. Especially if you have some good leadership and volunteering and are looking harder at very clinical programs vs. heavy research programs.

 

[SurgeDO]

do research if you have the time...but it's nothing worth freaking out about. you will have a lot of time to do research during 3rd year.

 

[DrMaximus]

do research if you have the time...but it's nothing worth freaking out about. you will have a lot of time to do research during 3rd year.

I've found it harder to find research to get involved in since starting rotations. But it's quite possible I'm just looking in the wrong places.

 

[Back 5]

Our residency advisor told me that my plan of doing gas and surgical shadowing over the summer (I don't have any time for research) will look good on my CV for applications. Is this incorrect advice?

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Strongly disagree. Publishing in JAOA is like not publishing at all. Journals are ranked. If you publish in Science, its understood you've made a significant discovery. If you publish in NEJM, or even JAMA, it's considered respectful and prestigious because they are well known journals that publish good scientific work. Publishing in a journal as old as the JAOA that has an impact factor of 0.0 is pretty much throwing your time down the drain, especially if you hope to use this publication to help you in any competitive non OMM-related specialty.

Yes, I understand perfectly well what IF means and the way people look at it. As I said above, the JAOA simply does not have an impact factor because they are not officially indexed in the Thompson Reuters system (the Journal Citation Reports) for tracking citations. They're "working on" getting an impact factor (see link and/or reference 5 in the link below). I do mostly agree with your sentiment after your first two sentences, however.

http://www.jaoa.osteopathic.org/content/112/3/117.full

 

[DrEnderW]

Our residency advisor told me that my plan of doing gas and surgical shadowing over the summer (I don't have any time for research) will look good on my CV for applications. Is this incorrect advice?

Why would shadowing look good on your CV as a med student? There's absolutely zero reason that should be mentioned, especially when you'll do multiple rotations in your specialty of interest. I don't think it would be neutral, but actively detrimental to be listing shadowing.

 

[DocWinter]

Seriously, your already in medical school...you'll have basically 2 years of shadowing(with responsibilities) in years 3 and 4. Don't list shadowing as a feather in your cap.

 

[AlteredScale]

Yes, I understand perfectly well what IF means and the way people look at it. As I said above, the JAOA simply does not have an impact factor because they are not officially indexed in the Thompson Reuters system (the Journal Citation Reports) for tracking citations. They're "working on" getting an impact factor (see link and/or reference 5 in the link below). I do mostly agree with your sentiment after your first two sentences, however.

http://www.jaoa.osteopathic.org/content/112/3/117.full

Thank you for sharing this!

I can see one of the agendas of the Osteopathic Principles Committee on ACGME being getting JAOA indexed ASAP. :O

 

[DocWinter]

I am really debating wether or not I should spend this upcoming summer doing research (assuming I don't have to remediate anything ). The only type of research available to apply to at this point is bench research. This is something I greatly dislike, and would really prefer doing something else, like shadowing. However, I don't want to regret this when time comes to applying for residency. The application deadline to apply for summer research opportunities at my school is approaching and I need to make a decision.

As of now, I'm not sure what I am going to pursue, but I have a pretty much good idea about what I DON'T want to do. I don't think I will be applying to any surgical specialty or other notoriously competitive fields (RadOnc and Derm). However, I'd still prefer to have the credentials to be competitive for academic ACGME programs. Assuming I end up applying to either IM, EM, Gas, Neuro, or Psych, how badly do I need to have some research experience and publications on my CV?

I've talked to some of the experienced faculty at my school about the "need research" factor when applying for residencies...basically I've been told if you're not really into it and you don't enjoy it, you're better off enjoying your time and making the most of other opportunities elsewhere. It's nice, but not as important as having solid clinical years and an amazing interview and people skills.

 

[hallowmann]

Thank you for sharing this!

I can see one of the agendas of the Osteopathic Principles Committee on ACGME being getting JAOA indexed ASAP. :O

Things like this are honestly why I think we can afford to ease up on the AOA-bashing. Sure there's still stuff that needs to be fixed, and we should definitely be finding ways to fix it, but I think most can agree that the AOA has been (for the most part) moving in the right direction lately.

I think more can be done if we focus on proposing real ideas and actionable items to the AOA, rather than sitting around bad mouthing the organization and complaining that they don't listen to each and every one of us. Maybe I'm idealistic or too early on in the process, but it's worth a shot.

 

[AlteredScale]

Things like this are honestly why I think we can afford to ease up on the AOA-bashing. Sure there's still stuff that needs to be fixed, and we should definitely be finding ways to fix it, but I think most can agree that the AOA has been (for the most part) moving in the right direction lately.

I think more can be done if we focus on proposing real ideas and actionable items to the AOA, then sitting around bad mouthing the organization and complaining that they don't listen to each and every one of us.

Exactly! This is the frustration I have. Not much will be done with people complaining here. There needs to be real work done to change things.

And totally agree with you when it comes to how the AOA has done it's part to move in the right direction.

It will be quite a gander to really call for reevaluation of COCA standards but I think it is very much doable. If we can provide strong evidence that standards are not up to par and that students are not happy with it, we can definitely make and impact.

 

[hallowmann]

...It will be quite a gander to really call for reevaluation of COCA standards but I think it is very much doable. If we can provide strong evidence that standards are not up to par and that students are not happy with it, we can definitely make and impact.

I agree with the sentiment. The good news is that COCA seems very willing to make positive changes as of late. In the last couple of years, a bunch of changes have occurred in accreditation requirements, that will hopefully improve things.

The most recent meaningful change I noticed was COCA explictly stating in their accreditation requirements that COMs must have a devotion and contribution to the advancement of medical research, including spending money on research, grants, and/or a research infrastructure. Unfortunately, it's not particularly specific as to how big of an impact a COM should have with research or how much money should be devoted to it, but at least it explicitly states it as a requirement.

Unfortunately, ever since the OPTI requirement, not a lot has been done to improve ClinEd and residency affiliations. That would definitely be a good place to focus on.

Also, we need to find a good way to evaluate current COMs, because I'm not sure they're always held to the standards written in COCA's requirements. We still have a year or two to see if COCA will punish COMs that fail to meet the 98% (average over 3 years) GME placement of graduates requirement or the 98% (over 3 yrs) COMLEX Level 3 pass rates of graduates requirement.

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[icevermin]

[deleted]

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Our residency advisor told me that my plan of doing gas and surgical shadowing over the summer (I don't have any time for research) will look good on my CV for applications. Is this incorrect advice?

Shadowing is basically a step below interest groups, so bad advice.

 

[Back 5]

Research isn't an option for me this summer. Might as well sit on my thumbs then?

 

[koan]

Research isn't an option for me this summer. Might as well sit on my thumbs then?

Yes, preferably on an exotic beach. Last summer of your life. Say those words over and over, and imagine in 25 years reflecting back on that summer and whether you're happy with the decision you made.

 

[DrEnderW]

Research isn't an option for me this summer. Might as well sit on my thumbs then?

I don't think it's bad to expose yourself to specialties of interest. I gained a lot by being in an OR during my M1 summer. It just won't help your CV, which is fine. Use it for a learning opportunity.

 

[powersr]

Here's my two cents:

I just matched into my top choice urology program and I guarantee I wouldn't have done so without research and publications. I did bench research (which I absolutely hate doing) the summer after my first year. I had no idea I even wanted to do Uro but was just strengthening my application the best I could so I wasn't closing any doors that I didn't even know were open to me in the future. It will never hurt you to have this on your CV, especially if you get publications out of it. Residencies usually require a certain amount of research, especially ACGME ones. Showing that you know how to do this makes you a more valuable applicant. It elevates you above the pack, trust me, I was asked about my research on interviews a fair amount.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Here's my two cents:

I just matched into my top choice urology program and I guarantee I wouldn't have done so without research and publications. I did bench research (which I absolutely hate doing) the summer after my first year. I had no idea I even wanted to do Uro but was just strengthening my application the best I could so I wasn't closing any doors that I didn't even know were open to me in the future. It will never hurt you to have this on your CV, especially if you get publications out of it. Residencies usually require a certain amount of research, especially ACGME ones. Showing that you know how to do this makes you a more valuable applicant. It elevates you above the pack, trust me, I was asked about my research on interviews a fair amount.

Great to hear -- and congratulations! Was your research in a field related to urology? And it was all during your preclincial years? What kind of questions did you get about your research on the interview trail? I'd love to hear more details if you don't mind sharing.

 

[Back 5]

Without research (unless I can gain access to it during my second year) will having worked in healthcare prior to medical school supplant research come residency? I'm sure it will give PD's something to talk about at the very least.

 

[powersr]

My research started summer after 1st year and was basically O chem stuff. But we were able to create novel compounds and market them to pharmaceutical companies. I only got one publication out of it but this is because the research was sold and is now proprietary info that isn't ours to public. My PI put that in my letter of rec and the programs loved it. I talked about it a little but it wasn't in great detail. This was not uro related.

After my first audition rotation in August I had an interesting case that I made a case report out of with a few residents and is currently undergoing final edits before publication. That was obviously awesome to talk about on interviews. Additionally, I started doing remote chart review for an attending at that same rotation that was used to select patients for a clinical trial that is ongoing. These two were uro specific.

That being said, I have a friend that matched uro with zero research but I know for a fact that it helped me.

 

[Chiroptile]

I'm watching this thread with a good deal of interest. This time next year I'll be able to put in my two cents and hopefully they wont be regretful. I'm a non-trad student, medicine was a career change. Graduated from undergrad in 2005 with a business degree, didn't start medical school until I was 30.. I've never done any research.. I honestly don't have any interest in it. Don't want to do something that I have no heart in just to be able to write about it in an application. I feel like I'm rolling the dice here a little, so hopefully these won't be famous last words.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I'm watching this thread with a good deal of interest. This time next year I'll be able to put in my two cents and hopefully they wont be regretful. I'm a non-trad student, medicine was a career change. Graduated from undergrad in 2005 with a business degree, didn't start medical school until I was 30.. I've never done any research.. I honestly don't have any interest in it. Don't want to do something that I have no heart in just to be able to write about it in an application. I feel like I'm rolling the dice here a little, so hopefully these won't be famous last words.

That's exactly how I feel. Despite doing research in undergrad and working in clinical laboratories before med school, I have no interest in doing research, much less a bench research. I understand how helpful it would be to have a research experience on my CV, but at the same time, I'm so over this rat race that we had as pre-meds, trying to beef up our apps to gain admission to med school.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

My research started summer after 1st year and was basically O chem stuff. But we were able to create novel compounds and market them to pharmaceutical companies. I only got one publication out of it but this is because the research was sold and is now proprietary info that isn't ours to public. My PI put that in my letter of rec and the programs loved it. I talked about it a little but it wasn't in great detail. This was not uro related.

After my first audition rotation in August I had an interesting case that I made a case report out of with a few residents and is currently undergoing final edits before publication. That was obviously awesome to talk about on interviews. Additionally, I started doing remote chart review for an attending at that same rotation that was used to select patients for a clinical trial that is ongoing. These two were uro specific.

That being said, I have a friend that matched uro with zero research but I know for a fact that it helped me.

Was your friend a DO student? If so, did they kill the boards (eg 260+/700+)?

 

[DrMaximus]

did they kill the boards (eg 260+/700+)?

That's what I would call cold blooded murdering the boards.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

That's what I would call cold blooded murdering the boards.

Maybe that what it takes to match surgical sub specialties

 

[powersr]

He was a DO in my class and he did very well on boards- 630's I think on step 1. I had 647 on step 1.

This rat race does suck, I feel your pain. BUT this part- the residency part- is literally your entire career. Getting into med school is one thing but you have options from there. Residency is the end all. You can't change specialties unless its fellowship dependent (IM -> Cards, GI etc) or you do another residency. This is the time to put in that work to make yourself stand out and give yourself options. My whole philosophy was to keep doors open even though I didn't know those doors existed. Why close doors now that you may want open to you later?

Now is the time to put in the work.

 

[Dharma]

Man… I hope some of ya'll remember to actually live. None of this stuff is the end-all, be-all. Work hard. Enjoy the ride. Don't take yourself TOO seriously. Oh… and if you think you need (or more importantly WANT) to do research, then do it.

 

[Chiroptile]

He was a DO in my class and he did very well on boards- 630's I think on step 1. I had 647 on step 1.

This rat race does suck, I feel your pain. BUT this part- the residency part- is literally your entire career. Getting into med school is one thing but you have options from there. Residency is the end all. You can't change specialties unless its fellowship dependent (IM -> Cards, GI etc) or you do another residency. This is the time to put in that work to make yourself stand out and give yourself options. My whole philosophy was to keep doors open even though I didn't know those doors existed. Why close doors now that you may want open to you later?

Now is the time to put in the work.

There are other ways that one can stand out, though. Aren't there? I'm not saying this to argue your position or tell you that it's wrong or anything. I agree that research can only help. But, say you have 15 kids, 14 of them did research while one dedicated their spare time to mentoring youngsters, for example.. Or 14 research kids while one was single mother of two who carried her kids and her medical school on her shoulders without any help from the outside.. I feel like the latter in either case will stand out on their own grounds.

Maybe I'm idealizing and romanticizing life experience a little bit. I'd like to think that it is something that can hold its own in the extracurricular equation.

 

[jw3600]

That's what I would call cold blooded murdering the boards.

Accurate. Unfortunately you can also call it a damn near prerequisite for matching competitive ACGME specialties.

 

[koan]

...14 research kids while one was single mother of two who carried her kids and her medical school on her shoulders without any help from the outside.. I feel like the latter in either case will stand out on their own grounds.

You may find the occasional sympathetic PD who looks favorably on family obligations. But on the whole this isn't considered an 'extracurricular' for residency. More often it comes across as an excuse / explanation for poor grades, leaves of absence, etc. I understand kids are a ton of work and give mega props to my parent colleagues, but a PD would rather hear "...despite being a single mom I got straight A's and published 3 papers," than "...I failed second semester and repeated the year because I couldn't balance school and family duties." Research isn't necessary, and life experience is definitely valuable. Just have to be careful how you spin everything. Your ERAS application is a snapshot of your whole academic career, you gotta weave a tale that makes you an uncanny fit for the programs you want to interview at.

 

[Chiroptile]

You may find the occasional sympathetic PD who looks favorably on family obligations. But on the whole this isn't considered an 'extracurricular' for residency. More often it comes across as an excuse / explanation for poor grades, leaves of absence, etc. I understand kids are a ton of work and give mega props to my parent colleagues, but a PD would rather hear "...despite being a single mom I got straight A's and published 3 papers," than "...I failed second semester and repeated the year because I couldn't balance school and family duties." Research isn't necessary, and life experience is definitely valuable. Just have to be careful how you spin everything. Your ERAS application is a snapshot of your whole academic career, you gotta weave a tale that makes you an uncanny fit for the programs you want to interview at.

Who said anything about poor grades or repeating years?

 

[koan]

Who said anything about poor grades or repeating years?

I did. I'm not talking about you or any specific student with children. Many of the best students in my class are parents. Just saying that more often than not, 'life experience' of that type is used as an excuse to justify deficits in a residency application.

 

[Chiroptile]

I did. I'm not talking about you or any specific student with children. Many of the best students in my class are parents. Just saying that more often than not, 'life experience' of that type is used as an excuse to justify deficits in a residency application.

Okay, I guess I should have specified that I was referring to academically successful students. I don't have any children, by the way. Was just using it as an example.. wondering how these things look in the context of academic success.

On the same tip, I wonder how research experience looks in the context of poor academic performance..