How legitimate of a risk is failing out?

[surfguy84]

Assuming you treat school like a 9 to 5 (along with some unpaid OT) and aren't a genius...how real is the risk that you might not make it?

Have you or any of your classmates failed or come close despite putting in an honest effort?

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[Goro]

We have ample experience that treating med school like a 9-5 job is just asking to be expelled for failing multiple courses. Work ethic is extremely important for a student's success.

We lose about 2-5% of our entering Class per year. This is similar to other medical schools, MD or DO. Most of these will take a LOA and return after they've fixed whatever was broken with them. We dismiss students (or have people withdraw) in the single digit numbers each year. It's harder to get out of medical school, than in!

Meaning, once you matriculate, we do everything in our power to get you to graduation. However, as you will learn as a doctor, you can't save 100% of your patients.

Assuming you treat school like a 9 to 5 (along with some unpaid OT) and aren't a genius...how real is the risk that you might not make it?

Have you or any of your classmates failed or come close despite putting in an honest effort?

 

[ortnakas]

If you treat school like a 9-5, failing out could be a real risk. Not that many students fail out, like Goro said, but almost everyone ends up studying far more than that.

 

[surfguy84]

Let me rephrase...when I say 9 to 5, I mean putting in serious effort.

Obviously poor way to state that. What I'm wondering is, are you pretty much guaranteed to at least get by if you're studying loads and not slacking off at all?

@Goro are the students you lose the ones who slacked or just couldn't handle the material despite putting forth serious effort?

 

[Goro]

9-5 with serious effort? You're in class during those times!

Let me rephrase...when I say 9 to 5, I mean putting in serious effort.

Absolutely. But for some people, working hard os not the same as working efficiently. Another key to success in med school is finding the study style that works for you. And many people learnt he hard way in our first semester that what worked in college doesn't work in med school. Luckily, the vast majority of them figure it out.

Obviously poor way to state that. What I'm wondering is, are you pretty much guaranteed to at least get by if you're studying loads and not slacking off at all?

Combination of that and other things, like poor coping skills when life issues arise, or when depression hits them. When you have high achieving students who, for the first time in their lives, start struggling, it hits their self-esteem very hard. OR, those with depression in the past get worse by the furnace of med school.

The ones who become the most worse off are the ones who do not seek help. There are others who engage in self-destructive behavior, by engaging in "magic thinking". You know the type.... They go into the finals thinking that somehow they're going to ace the final and barely pass.

The trouble with barely passing in med school is that it's a recipe for failing Boards.

are the students you lose the ones who slacked or just couldn't handle the material despite putting forth serious effort?

 

[seminoma]

Assuming you treat school like a 9 to 5 (along with some unpaid OT) and aren't a genius...how real is the risk that you might not make it?

Have you or any of your classmates failed or come close despite putting in an honest effort?

Very real risk that you'll work hard and still fail.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[notbobtrustme]

If you can't get everything done during 9-5, you need to reexamine what you are doing. 8 hours is more than enough time to get everything done unless you are spending a bunch of time dicking off during your "study" time.

 

[surfguy84]

Really @DOFOSHO ? 72 hours a week is necessary to pass?

This just seems excessive....

 

[67552931811]

yeah. its less like a 9am-5pm and more like 7am-9pm. "serious effort" will get you to almost passing. its basically final exam week of college every night for the next 2 years.

Really @DOFOSHO ? 72 hours a week is necessary to pass?

This just seems excessive....

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[Postictal Raiden]

Unless you are wasting your time attending lectures, 8hrs a day should be more than enough.

I was able to maintain a normal social life (I'm married and have a kid), watch tons of TV (House, BB, GOT, the Walking Dead, Prison Break, and House of Cards), and visit Disneyland at least 20 times, while maintaining a well-above average status in most of my first year courses.

It's not about the quantity of time you put it, but it is the quality that counts. And one more time, DON'T ATTEND LECTURES.

 

[sunealoneal]

Are you guys assuming that lectures are being skipped? And that it isn't an anatomy lab/OPP lab day? If so I think 9-5 would be fairly workable.

 

[Mad Jack]

Assuming you treat school like a 9 to 5 (along with some unpaid OT) and aren't a genius...how real is the risk that you might not make it?

Have you or any of your classmates failed or come close despite putting in an honest effort?

Uh, it's way more than a 9-5, brosephine. I put in probably 50-80 hours a week, depending on how close we were to a block exam. Average was around 65-70 hours a week.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you can't get everything done during 9-5, you need to reexamine what you are doing. 8 hours is more than enough time to get everything done unless you are spending a bunch of time dicking off during your "study" time.

Strongly depends on how much required class time you have.

 

[deleted480308]

I have 30hrs/wk of mandatory attendance....I spend at least that much studying outside of class, but maybe I'm dumber than everyone else

 

[seminoma]

Also largely depends on efficiency and ability to retain. Both improve, but in the beginning it's rough.

 

[Goro]

RE: lecture attendance. Some people need to hear things, so skipping lecture for them is not an option. Each person needs to find their optimal earning style.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[surfguy84]

And don't forget, the same probability of flipping a coin and getting tails is the same probability of being in the bottom half of your class.

Couldnt care less about bottom half. Just want to pass and have good understanding of the material.

 

[GUH]

RE: lecture attendance. Some people need to hear things, so skipping lecture for them is not an option. Each person needs to find their optimal earning style.

That's me. I experimented with mostly studying at home early on and realized that sitting in class at least forced me to get some exposure to the material for a first pass, even if I only remembered half of what was said. It was also hard to stay disciplined for four to eight straight hours of lecture recordings every day when I was at home. Power points were okay but sometimes different things were emphasized in the actual lecture.

To answer the OP, if you got into medical school and put out a good effort, you'd probably make it through even if you arent a genius. Exceptions to this are if you have family drama, a medical condition requiring repeated hospitalization a, or depression/ADHD. At least that's what I've observed.

 

[Goro]

The problem is that with this mindset is that you're NOT going to have a good understanding of the material.

If say, a 70 is a passing grade at your school, well, 75 -80 is the new 70. You can't be satisfied with just passing. My students who have this attitude are exactly the ones who fail out, take a LOA, leave permanently, or have to remediate an entire year after too many failures. They also fail COMLEX with depressing regularity.

Couldnt care less about bottom half. Just want to pass and have good understanding of the material.

 

[notbobtrustme]

And don't forget, the same probability of flipping a coin and getting tails is the same probability of being in the bottom half of your class.

just because an outcome has two possibilities doesn't mean they occur with equal chance.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

That's me. I experimented with mostly studying at home early on and realized that sitting in class at least forced me to get some exposure to the material for a first pass, even if I only remembered half of what was said. It was also hard to stay disciplined for four to eight straight hours of lecture recordings every day when I was at home. Power points were okay but sometimes different things were emphasized in the actual lecture.

To answer the OP, if you got into medical school and put out a good effort, you'd probably make it through even if you arent a genius. Exceptions to this are if you have family drama, a medical condition requiring repeated hospitalization a, or depression/ADHD. At least that's what I've observed.

This goes to show that there's no one size that fits all. Everyone leans differently. For me, every minute spent on campus is 100% waste of my time. I still listen to lectures, but I do it at double speed and pause whenever I need to take notes.

Unfortunately, I will be spending a lot more time on campus during the second year because my school have us engage in case study activities, and that's something I have no choice but attend.

 

[j4pac]

I had two of my 160 something get kicked out. Two were held back. The two who were kicked out were personality issues coupled with poor decision making. One was held back for getting caught skipping class during mandatory attendance. The other struggled academically. To my knowledge both ended up graduating and matching.

I'm willing to bet that mental health accounts for more flunk outs than academic capability.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Unless you are wasting your time attending lectures, 8hrs a day should be more than enough.

I was able to maintain a normal social life (I'm married and have a kid), watch tons of TV (House, BB, GOT, the Walking Dead, Prison Break, and House of Cards), and visit Disneyland at least 20 times, while maintaining a well-above average status in most of my first year courses.

It's not about the quantity of time you put it, but it is the quality that counts. And one more time, DON'T ATTEND LECTURES.

We both know you're an anomaly. I was putting the 80 hours a week to stay afloat in the beginning.

 

[psych72]

Unless you are wasting your time attending lectures, 8hrs a day should be more than enough.

I was able to maintain a normal social life (I'm married and have a kid), watch tons of TV (House, BB, GOT, the Walking Dead, Prison Break, and House of Cards), and visit Disneyland at least 20 times, while maintaining a well-above average status in most of my first year courses.

It's not about the quantity of time you put it, but it is the quality that counts. And one more time, DON'T ATTEND LECTURES.

I think this is true to some degree. But attending lectures helps you keep on float with some topics.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Really depends on the student.

I can learn 2x more by not going to class. I don't need someone verbalizing a PowerPoint.

I'm just finishing up first year so my experience is limited but if you're studying more than 8 hours a day just to pass then you really need to go see a learning specialist. If you're studying 8+ hours a day then you better be around the average or higher.

2nd year will be different so we'll see how that goes.

 

[surfguy84]

One more big question....do tests have a range of easy medium hard questions like.the mcat...or are they all just super difficult all the time?

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[DOFOSHO]

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[surfguy84]

some will be easy/medium. but a lot of questions will be unique to what your professor talked about at your school, so they will be easy for you if you study the material your professor presents, but would be impossible to the rest of the world, and totally irrelevant for the boards. once you start to see a pattern of that you'll realize why class is a waste of time, and why 98.3% of people on SDN recommend skipping lectures.

Thanks for your feedback.

So what I'm taking away from all of this is...if you are able to focus on your professors slides and lecture, memorize well/use anki, you should be able to do okay?

Boards I'm sure are a whole other matter.

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[hallowmann]

If you can't get everything done during 9-5, you need to reexamine what you are doing. 8 hours is more than enough time to get everything done unless you are spending a bunch of time dicking off during your "study" time.

9-5 including class time? If you can study 5-6 hrs out of class/day, you should be fine, but that means different things for different people. Someone who has mandatory attendance from 8-4 will be studying well into the night, and basically just have enough time for sleep, eating, exercise, etc. for the rest of the day.

OP, you need to go in expecting to be studying constantly, like all the time. When you find the right study method and see positive results, then you can scale back to the best method for you.

Couldnt care less about bottom half. Just want to pass and have good understanding of the material.

Don't go in wanting to just pass if you want a good understanding of the material. Generally speaking, the people who barely pass don't have a good understanding of the material. It varies by school, but if you have a good grasp of the material, you should be at least in the 3rd quartile or at worst the 4th quintile of the class (to get higher you have to know what the professors want).

Barely passing might be fine for some classes, but you can't be barely passing every course, or else you will probably fail boards. While failing out of school because of classes is unlikely, it's pretty easy to fail out of school after 2 or so failed board attempts.

 

[surfguy84]

yeah. you'll have to figure out what works best for you, the surfguy. i personally hate learning from powerpoints so i read a lot. be on alert for covert op double agent gunners - they post complicated study guides and extraneous resources in an attempt to bring you down. you should also start doing questions early, from usmlerx or kaplan, (save Uworld for later). and watch out for gunners, many of them will blow their cover early on, but some are true pros.

you think using a Qbank during the beginning of M1 will be worthwhile? At my school we start off doing the basics first...would a qbank still be applicable?

 

[chizledfrmstone]

you think using a Qbank during the beginning of M1 will be worthwhile? At my school we start off doing the basics first...would a qbank still be applicable?

No.

Do questions in BRS or something.

 

[ortnakas]

you think using a Qbank during the beginning of M1 will be worthwhile? At my school we start off doing the basics first...would a qbank still be applicable?

Personally, I don't think so. You don't know enough early on for a Qbank to be helpful yet. The possible exception is Firecracker, which is a daily repetition program designed to help you remember what you've learned so far (there's several threads about it), but can also get time consuming.

 

[surfguy84]

No.

Do questions in BRS or something.

BRS Physiology I assume?

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[Hustler101]

yeah. its less like a 9am-5pm and more like 7am-9pm. "serious effort" will get you to almost passing. its basically final exam week of college every night for the next 2 years.

Why does everyone say that you'll have a bit of free time then? (serious question)

 

[Goro]

It does students no favors to give them super hard questions all the time. We have a range of easy-medium-hard. We try to mimic COMLEX. All Faculty members see how their exam questions perform, so we can adjust our lecture material and/or test questions accordingly.

One more big question....do tests have a range of easy medium hard questions like.the mcat...or are they all just super difficult all the time?

Of course!
So what I'm taking away from all of this is...if you are able to focus on your professors slides and lecture, memorize well/use anki, you should be able to do okay?

 

[surfguy84]

I know pathoma, FA, Firecracker, etc get talked about all the time on here...and for good reason (from what I hear). Do you think your average, non-SDN med student is doing all of the stuff most of the SDN'ers are doing?

 

[ortnakas]

I know pathoma, FA, Firecracker, etc get talked about all the time on here...and for good reason (from what I hear). Do you think your average, non-SDN med student is doing all of the stuff most of the SDN'ers are doing?

Pathoma & Goljan-- a lot of people.
First Aid-- almost everyone, at least second year.
Firecracker-- more common on SDN than in real life.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Why does everyone say that you'll have a bit of free time then? (serious question)

You don't consider 1-2 hours a day (2-4 if you're really intelligent or just aiming to pass) free time?

I have a final on Monday. I plan to watch 1/2 an episode of Royal Pains tonight and the other 1/2 of it after the Final.

During weeks where we didn't have an exam I could watch an episode of House of Cards every night during dinner.

 

[PIacebo]

It is a pretty big risk.

 

[surfguy84]

It is a pretty big risk.

does it really happen that often at your school?

 

[DOFOSHO]

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[Cuze]

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[Cuze]

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[HotLunch96]

Let me rephrase...when I say 9 to 5, I mean putting in serious effort.

Obviously poor way to state that. What I'm wondering is, are you pretty much guaranteed to at least get by if you're studying loads and not slacking off at all?

@Goro are the students you lose the ones who slacked or just couldn't handle the material despite putting forth serious effort?

Try 8 am to 11 pm frequently