how long do you expect your dental career to last?

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thewillofallah

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Curious, as a person exploring a career in Dentistry, how long "common wisdom" assumes a dental career can last. Unlike some specialties of Medicine, Dentistry is physically hard work. Crouching over for 8 hours a day for years on end must take a toll. Also, general concerns about aging, such as slight tremors or weakening vision make the job much harder.

how long do you assume your career will last? until you're 50? 60? 60+?

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You are right. Dentistry is a physically tedious profession. Many dentists suffer chronic back and neck pain. Of course, just like you said, there are other factors like vision and the shakes. I'd say many practice well into their sixties but not necessarily because they want to. Orthodontists often go a little longer. In my humble opinion it's a little easier on the body than general dentistry.
 
I've spoken to many older dentists about this who are in their mid 60's -early 70's. They all mention that most of their colleagues practiced into their mid 60's and many were able to get out in their late 50's as successfully retired (no major medical problem). I'm hoping with improved ergo equipment and magnification we can all work as long as we want/need to. My personal goal is to work till I'm in my young 70's - life without work is boring to me.
 
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:soexcited: 33 years and counting
 
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Nothing scary, they still work.
 
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That dentist has a pair of forceps that is over 50 years old. That's really scary.

Lol, talking about return on the equipment investment.
 
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Unfortunately the dental profession is connected to a lot of hazards. Probably the back pain is the most common one. At some point you'll have troubles with the eyes, especially if you work with magnifying glasses or a microscope. The stress is also a big issue. We basically deal with problems every day. Nobody is coming to the dentist happy and willing to compliment your work.
My advice is to take lots of rest, massages and do some work out in your free time.
Hopefully I won't have to retire soon:) But my target is 55-60.
 
Is it possible to retire in your 50's, or even early 60s, on a dentists income? That seems SO young. What do you plan to do with yourself after you retire?
 
Is it possible to retire in your 50's, or even early 60s, on a dentists income? That seems SO young. What do you plan to do with yourself after you retire?

Yappy,
Do you ever read dentaltown? A lot of the dentists on there talk about retiring at ~55. It's pretty funny how badly some of them want to get out.

There's an epic and relevant thread on dentaltown called, "The get out of Debt Thread." Check it out:

http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=214&t=202553&pg=1
 
Is it possible to retire in your 50's, or even early 60s, on a dentists income? That seems SO young. What do you plan to do with yourself after you retire?

It's entirely possible. Financially, I could have retired two years ago. If you live within your means, remain healthy and make no major financial mistakes (divorce etc) and start saving early it's doable. I practice now because I enjoy it.

When I retire I plan to start a hydroponic marijuana farm in either Colorado or Washington....... Lol
 
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Yappy,
Do you ever read dentaltown? A lot of the dentists on there talk about retiring at ~55. It's pretty funny how badly some of them want to get out.

There's an epic and relevant thread on dentaltown called, "The get out of Debt Thread." Check it out:

http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=214&t=202553&pg=1

Thanks. I've read that thread before but I've found what makes me tick is different than those posters, and many of my classmates, going into dentistry. I'm a novelty in that my happiest phases of life were when I was working 50+ hours/wk. To be honest a lot of people on DT seem to have superficial (I lack for a better word) interests; that's fine but I find it difficult to relate to most of their rhetoric.

Ohio - thanks for sharing that bit of info.
 
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Keep in mind that you won't be in the same physical shape when you reach 60 years old. When the patients stop coming to see you because they prefer seeing a dentist who is faster, younger, better looking, and more skillful than you, you can no longer pay the office's rent + other expenses. You'll have no other choices but to retire and to sell your practice. I bought an existing practice from a 60 yo orthodontist for this reason. When that time comes, will you be able to you save enough to support yourself for the rest of your life?

I need to find ways to make money in case I can no longer practice dentistry (due to an illness, a disability, or death). Instead buying a 1+million dollar office building to set up my ortho practice like some of my colleagues (I am not a huge risk taker like them), I invested my money on several small rental properties because they are much cheaper and easier to qualify for a loan. All I need is a 20% down payment and I just use the rental incomes to make monthly mortgage payments for these investment properties. By the time I quit dentistry, hopefully all of these rental properties' mortgage debts will be paid off. Hopefully, the rental income will help me retire comfortably for the rest of my life.

As OhioDMD pointed out on the post above, you need to save/invest early. The sooner you start practicing dentistry and earning a healthy income, the better it will be. I keep telling my nieces and nephews not to waste too much time in colleges to decide which major to pursue. Finish college in 4 years. Finish professional school (dentistry, medicine, optometry, or pharmacy etc) in 4 years. Then, find a job and start saving or investing right away.

Since the pathway to become a dentist is very long, you should not waste too much time after high school, especially if you plan to get married and have kids.
 
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Keep in mind that you won't be in the same physical shape when you reach 60 years old. When the patients stop coming to see you because they prefer seeing a dentist who is faster, younger, better looking, and more skillful than you, you can no longer pay the office's rent + other expenses. You'll have no other choices but to retire and to sell your practice. I bought an existing practice from a 60 yo orthodontist for this reason. When that time comes, will you be able to you save enough to support yourself for the rest of your life?

I need to find ways to make money in case I can no longer practice dentistry (due to an illness, a disability, or death). Instead buying a 1+million dollar office building to set up my ortho practice like some of my colleagues (I am not a huge risk taker like them), I invested my money on several small rental properties because they are much cheaper and easier to qualify for a loan. All I need is a 20% down payment and I just use the rental incomes to make monthly mortgage payments for these investment properties. By the time I quit dentistry, hopefully all of these rental properties' mortgage debts will be paid off. Hopefully, the rental income will help me retire comfortably for the rest of my life.

As OhioDMD pointed out on the post above, you need to save/invest early. The sooner you start practicing dentistry and earning a healthy income, the better it will be. I keep telling my nieces and nephews not to waste too much time in colleges to decide which major to pursue. Finish college in 4 years. Finish professional school (dentistry, medicine, optometry, or pharmacy etc) in 4 years. Then, find a job and start saving or investing right away.

Since the pathway to become a dentist is very long, you should not waste too much time after high school, especially if you plan to get married and have kids.

I agree with everything you've said regarding saving & investing; however...

Is it really that down hill after 60? I mean.. I have a relative, who is 62, and reps w/225lbs on the bench. Sure, he's not running marathons, or up for 10hr days roofing , but with well trained assistants how hard does wielding a handpiece become @60+?
 
I'm with yappy. Investing in yourself in your early years isn't only financial, but physical.

At least for men, if you build good habits early, you can stave off the stigma of being "aged" to the detriment of your business/practice well into middle age.
 
Wielding a handpiece at 60+ is not that hard - doing everything else and wielding a handpiece at 60+ is.
 
Keep in mind that you won't be in the same physical shape when you reach 60 years old. When the patients stop coming to see you because they prefer seeing a dentist who is faster, younger, better looking, and more skillful than you, you can no longer pay the office's rent + other expenses. You'll have no other choices but to retire and to sell your practice. I bought an existing practice from a 60 yo orthodontist for this reason. When that time comes, will you be able to you save enough to support yourself for the rest of your life?

I need to find ways to make money in case I can no longer practice dentistry (due to an illness, a disability, or death). Instead buying a 1+million dollar office building to set up my ortho practice like some of my colleagues (I am not a huge risk taker like them), I invested my money on several small rental properties because they are much cheaper and easier to qualify for a loan. All I need is a 20% down payment and I just use the rental incomes to make monthly mortgage payments for these investment properties. By the time I quit dentistry, hopefully all of these rental properties' mortgage debts will be paid off. Hopefully, the rental income will help me retire comfortably for the rest of my life.

As OhioDMD pointed out on the post above, you need to save/invest early. The sooner you start practicing dentistry and earning a healthy income, the better it will be. I keep telling my nieces and nephews not to waste too much time in colleges to decide which major to pursue. Finish college in 4 years. Finish professional school (dentistry, medicine, optometry, or pharmacy etc) in 4 years. Then, find a job and start saving or investing right away.

Since the pathway to become a dentist is very long, you should not waste too much time after high school, especially if you plan to get married and have kids.

This is a significant advantage that medicine has over dentistry--the absence of physical demands. Many medical fields---psychiatry, anesthesia, pathology, radiology, family medicine, internal medicine, allergy (should I go on?)--lend themselves very well to working far past 60, and many if not most people in these fields do just that.

Re: people not going to you because you are 60+--I would say that is not true for the majority of dental fields. How hard is it to work 3 days per week at your Oral surgery office? Or at your Endodontic office? Most patients want practitioners in these fields who have EXPERIENCE. That's a benefit to them, not a detriment. Perhaps Orthodontics is such a superficial field that perceptions of the practitioner apply more there, but I have a hard time seeing that in other fields.

Re: rentals--those are a good idea, but investing in the market is better. You mentioned before that you put very little money into a 401K. That's a bad idea. As a self-employed person, you should be MAXING out a self-funded 401K (~52K per year) as well as a traditional IRA. In the long-term, that will generally yield you better returns than real estate, provided you spread your assets out over low-cost mutual funds (ie, Vanguard). Rental properties should come after this.

Lastly, I respect your drive and thriftiness, but frankly I think that life experience counts for a lot. You have no other exposure to any field besides Orthodontics and dentistry (which is probably why you don't realize the value of maxing a 401K vs real estate). That's OK, but realize that many people have significant life experience from other random parts of life--work, military, etc.., that might actually give them significant benefit down the road. When I volunteered at a hospital many years ago, I remember one of the MAs there saying of physicians who went straight through to medical school, "a lot of doctors are very green in life." How true.

Life is a marathon, not a sprint.

One more thing: I contacted a young Orthodontist on Dentaltown a while back re: practice debt and purchasing. She was purchasing an Ortho practice from a guy who was 82 years old. He said to her, "I'd like to sell to you and be your associate until my time is up." An orthodontist retiring at 60 is doing so by choice, not by necessity. It is the world's easiest job. He/she could have no problem going to a chain and working there. The orthodontist I went to several years back to have my teeth straightened works 3 days per week. It is inherently a job that lends itself well to working into one's latest years. My mother's father was a railroader--a very dangerous and physically difficult job. He retired at ~74.
 
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Wielding a handpiece at 60+ is not that hard - doing everything else and wielding a handpiece at 60+ is.

My dentist retired at 67. He was working 2.5 days per week for the last ~10 years of his career.
 
Unfortunately the dental profession is connected to a lot of hazards. Probably the back pain is the most common one. At some point you'll have troubles with the eyes, especially if you work with magnifying glasses or a microscope. The stress is also a big issue. We basically deal with problems every day. Nobody is coming to the dentist happy and willing to compliment your work.
My advice is to take lots of rest, massages and do some work out in your free time.
Hopefully I won't have to retire soon:) But my target is 55-60.

Having a good workout regimen, engaging in healthy life habits, and limiting ones clinical hours a week are key for a sustained, fruitful career. Many young dentists come out working in grossly extended hours (especially prevalent in corporate) and wear themselves to exhaustion.

This is a significant advantage that medicine has over dentistry--the absence of physical demands. Many medical fields---psychiatry, anesthesia, pathology, radiology, family medicine, internal medicine, allergy (should I go on?)--lend themselves very well to working far past 60, and many if not most people in these fields do just that.

Re: people not going to you because you are 60+--I would say that is not true for the majority of dental fields. How hard is it to work 3 days per week at your Oral surgery office? Or at your Endodontic office? Most patients want practitioners in these fields who have EXPERIENCE. That's a benefit to them, not a detriment. Perhaps Orthodontics is such a superficial field that perceptions of the practitioner apply more there, but I have a hard time seeing that in other fields.

Re: rentals--those are a good idea, but investing in the market is better. You mentioned before that you put very little money into a 401K. That's a bad idea. As a self-employed person, you should be MAXING out a self-funded 401K (~52K per year) as well as a traditional IRA. In the long-term, that will generally yield you better returns than real estate, provided you spread your assets out over low-cost mutual funds (ie, Vanguard). Rental properties should come after this.

Lastly, I respect your drive and thriftiness, but frankly I think that life experience counts for a lot. You have no other exposure to any field besides Orthodontics and dentistry (which is probably why you don't realize the value of maxing a 401K vs real estate). That's OK, but realize that many people have significant life experience from other random parts of life--work, military, etc.., that might actually give them significant benefit down the road. When I volunteered at a hospital many years ago, I remember one of the MAs there saying of physicians who went straight through to medical school, "a lot of doctors are very green in life." How true.

Life is a marathon, not a sprint.

One more thing: I contacted a young Orthodontist on Dentaltown a while back re: practice debt and purchasing. She was purchasing an Ortho practice from a guy who was 82 years old. He said to her, "I'd like to sell to you and be your associate until my time is up." An orthodontist retiring at 60 is doing so by choice, not by necessity. It is the world's easiest job. He/she could have no problem going to a chain and working there. The orthodontist I went to several years back to have my teeth straightened works 3 days per week. It is inherently a job that lends itself well to working into one's latest years. My mother's father was a railroader--a very dangerous and physically difficult job. He retired at ~74.

Maximizing in a tax-sheltered account is really just common sense. I think real estate is a good component to a healthy, diversified portfolio but I would not rely on real estate as the primary cog in my retirement machine. The problem with real estate is that it involves active maintainence and in most states you are charged a property tax (significant in some states) for holding it, and the field is highly cyclical and there are factors that are beyond your control (like if a neighborhood goes 'bad'). . I would probably make it no more than 25% of my portfolio at most. It is definitely possible to strike it rich in real estate, but those cases involve speculative actions beyond most peoples means and understanding.

There was a study done a while back that I can't remember the source in which the long-term appreciation of precious metals, bonds, real estate, and stocks were compared. Metals came out worst, followed by bonds which is closely in line with real estate, and stocks came out the best. Of course, there are a lot of criteria you'd have to consider, like your investment horizon, types of stocks (dividend paying), which companies, tax-deferred or regular accounts, fees, etc., but in general I do think stocks is the best investment vehicle.
 
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Having a good workout regimen, engaging in healthy life habits, and limiting ones clinical hours a week are key for a sustained, fruitful


Maximizing in a tax-sheltered account is really just common sense. I think real estate is a good component to a healthy, diversified portfolio but I would not rely on real estate as the primary cog in my retirement machine. The problem with real estate is that it involves active maintainence and in most states you are charged a property tax (significant in some states) for holding it, and the field is highly cyclical. I would probably make it no more than 25% of my portfolio at most. It is definitely possible to strike it rich in real estate, but those cases involve speculative actions beyond most peoples means and understanding.

There was a study done a while back that I can't remember the source in which the long-term appreciation of precious metals, bonds, real estate, and stocks were compared. Metals came out worst, followed by bonds which is closely in line with real estate, and stocks came out the best. Of course, there are a lot of criteria you'd have to consider, like your investment horizon, types of stocks (dividend paying), which companies, tax-deferred or regular accounts, fees, etc., but in general I do think stocks is the best investment vehicle.

Yup. Nice thing is that funds give you the opportunity to effectively spread out your risk over many investments.
 
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Yup. Nice thing is that funds give you the opportunity to effectively spread out your risk over many investments.

Funds are a good 'beginner kit' because it gives you instant diversification into the market, but nowadays I have shifted into picking my own individual stocks after doing my due diligent research in various companies. The problem with many funds is that the fees and portfolio turnover is too high, directly cutting into your gains. By picking my own stocks, I get exactly what I want and nowadays there are free brokerages that you don't even need to pay fees (how good is that?). Nonetheless, funds are indeed a good way to start.

The biggest problem investing is that many people buy and sell precisely at the wrong times. They chase after hot stocks and panic when there is a correction (which, if you are a true investor, should be seen as a welcomed opportunity). I think Warren Buffet sums it up the best when he said 'Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful.'
 
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Funds are a good 'beginner kit' because it gives you instant diversification into the market, but nowadays I have shifted into picking my own individual stocks after doing my due diligent research in various companies. The problem with many funds is that the fees and portfolio turnover is too high, directly cutting into your gains. By picking my own stocks, I get exactly what I want and nowadays there are free brokerages that you don't even need to pay fees (how good is that?). Nonetheless, funds are indeed a good way to start.

The biggest problem investing is that many people buy and sell precisely at the wrong times. They chase after hot stocks and panic when there is a correction (which, if you are a true investor, should be seen as a welcomed opportunity). I think Warren Buffet sums it up the best when he said 'Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful.'

I completely agree. That's actually one of my favorite investing quotes. I even have it on my facebook profile quote section. It's amazing how many people don't follow that sage piece of advice, even when their holdings are mostly mutual funds. When the financial industry crashed, I made out like gangbusters buying up the scraps. Some of my best returns were FIG, BX, RDN and KATE (formerly FNP, which was formerly LIZ, as in Liz Claiborne).
 
This is a significant advantage that medicine has over dentistry--the absence of physical demands. Many medical fields---psychiatry, anesthesia, pathology, radiology, family medicine, internal medicine, allergy (should I go on?)--lend themselves very well to working far past 60, and many if not most people in these fields do just that.

Re: people not going to you because you are 60+--I would say that is not true for the majority of dental fields. How hard is it to work 3 days per week at your Oral surgery office? Or at your Endodontic office? Most patients want practitioners in these fields who have EXPERIENCE. That's a benefit to them, not a detriment. Perhaps Orthodontics is such a superficial field that perceptions of the practitioner apply more there, but I have a hard time seeing that in other fields.

Re: rentals--those are a good idea, but investing in the market is better. You mentioned before that you put very little money into a 401K. That's a bad idea. As a self-employed person, you should be MAXING out a self-funded 401K (~52K per year) as well as a traditional IRA. In the long-term, that will generally yield you better returns than real estate, provided you spread your assets out over low-cost mutual funds (ie, Vanguard). Rental properties should come after this.

Lastly, I respect your drive and thriftiness, but frankly I think that life experience counts for a lot. You have no other exposure to any field besides Orthodontics and dentistry (which is probably why you don't realize the value of maxing a 401K vs real estate). That's OK, but realize that many people have significant life experience from other random parts of life--work, military, etc.., that might actually give them significant benefit down the road. When I volunteered at a hospital many years ago, I remember one of the MAs there saying of physicians who went straight through to medical school, "a lot of doctors are very green in life." How true.

Life is a marathon, not a sprint.

One more thing: I contacted a young Orthodontist on Dentaltown a while back re: practice debt and purchasing. She was purchasing an Ortho practice from a guy who was 82 years old. He said to her, "I'd like to sell to you and be your associate until my time is up." An orthodontist retiring at 60 is doing so by choice, not by necessity. It is the world's easiest job. He/she could have no problem going to a chain and working there. The orthodontist I went to several years back to have my teeth straightened works 3 days per week. It is inherently a job that lends itself well to working into one's latest years. My mother's father was a railroader--a very dangerous and physically difficult job. He retired at ~74.
I admit I don't know much about investments, especially in stocks. But I don't think I should put all my money in one place,401k. Silent cool, when you are married and have children you tend to think differently. My wife and I don't invest our hard earned money on these rental properties just for ourselves but they are also for our children when we pass away. We bought the rental properties because the prices were reasonable (housing bubble crash) and the interest rate was very low (4%). You may not be able to buy these same properties in 10-15 years even when you have a lot of money because the housing prices and property tax are too high to yield a good profit. My parents paid $134k for their house back in 1989. It is now worth $450k. It was as high as $600k before the housing bubble.

It's important to invest early when you are in good health and have good income. You never know what you will be like 15-20 years from now. You cannot prevent things like cancer, carpal tunnel, back pain, a major car accident etc. Dentistry will also be very different in 15-20 years. The market will become much more saturated with new grad dentists. The insurance companies will pay you less and less every year etc. When you get old and work fewer days/week you will lose a lot of patients because they'd rather go see a younger doctor whose office opens 7 days/week and late hours. As things (rent, dental supplies, staff salaries etc) get more and more expensive and you get paid less and less, dentistry is no longer a profitable profession for you. And you have to quit dentistry even if you, at the age of 65, are still capable of doing a nice molar RCT in an hour.
 
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I admit I don't know much about investments, especially in stocks. But I don't think I should put all my money in one place,401k. Silent cool, when you are married and have children you tend to think differently. My wife and I don't invest our hard earned money on these rental properties just for ourselves but they are also for our children when we pass away. We bought the rental properties because the prices were reasonable (housing bubble crash) and the interest rate was very low (4%). You may not be able to buy these same properties in 10-15 years even when you have a lot of money because the housing prices and property tax are too high to yield a good profit. My parents paid $134k for their house back in 1989. It is now worth $450k. It was as high as $600k before the housing bubble.

It's important to invest early when you are in good health and have good income. You never know what you will be like 15-20 years from now. You cannot prevent things like cancer, carpal tunnel, back pain, a major car accident etc. Dentistry will also be very different in 15-20 years. The market will become much more saturated with new grad dentists. The insurance companies will pay you less and less every year etc. When you get old and work fewer days/week you will lose a lot of patients because they'd rather go see a younger doctor whose office opens 7 days/week and late hours. As things (rent, dental supplies, staff salaries etc) get more and more expensive and you get paid less and less, dentistry is no longer a profitable profession for you. And you have to quit dentistry even if you, at the age of 65, are still capable of doing a nice molar RCT in an hour.
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I admit I don't know much about investments, especially in stocks. But I don't think I should put all my money in one place,401k. Silent cool, when you are married and have children you tend to think differently. My wife and I don't invest our hard earned money on these rental properties just for ourselves but they are also for our children when we pass away. We bought the rental properties because the prices were reasonable (housing bubble crash) and the interest rate was very low (4%). You may not be able to buy these same properties in 10-15 years even when you have a lot of money because the housing prices and property tax are too high to yield a good profit. My parents paid $134k for their house back in 1989. It is now worth $450k. It was as high as $600k before the housing bubble.

It's important to invest early when you are in good health and have good income. You never know what you will be like 15-20 years from now. You cannot prevent things like cancer, carpal tunnel, back pain, a major car accident etc. Dentistry will also be very different in 15-20 years. The market will become much more saturated with new grad dentists. The insurance companies will pay you less and less every year etc. When you get old and work fewer days/week you will lose a lot of patients because they'd rather go see a younger doctor whose office opens 7 days/week and late hours. As things (rent, dental supplies, staff salaries etc) get more and more expensive and you get paid less and less, dentistry is no longer a profitable profession for you. And you have to quit dentistry even if you, at the age of 65, are still capable of doing a nice molar RCT in an hour.

Meet James Hilgers, Orthodontist in Mission Viejo.

http://www.hncortho.com/meet-dr-james-hilgers

"I have spent the last 40 years building my practice based on trust, compassion, and excellence."

So he's gotta be about 70.

I remember reading dentaltown once and a poster said, "you can practice orthodontics until you have one foot in the grave." LOL.
 
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Meet James Hilgers, Orthodontist in Mission Viejo.

http://www.hncortho.com/meet-dr-james-hilgers

"I have spent the last 40 years building my practice based on trust, compassion, and excellence."

So he's gotta be about 70.

I remember reading dentaltown once and a poster said, "you can practice orthodontics until you have one foot in the grave." LOL.
Orthodontics is, no doubt, the best job in the world. There are no other jobs out there that allow me to work only 4 hours a day…and most of the manual labors are performed by the dental assistants. I currently treat a kid whose parents are both dermatologists. Even his dermatologist parents admit that they are working harder than me. It is, however, still a job. And like any other jobs, it requires a lot of responsibilities. Right now, I am ok with going from door to door to beg the GPs for referrals. Right now, I am ok listening to angry unhappy parents who complain about me. I don’t want to face any of these, when I am 60+ years old. I am not as dedicated as Dr. Hilgers, who truly loves orthodontics and has written a lot of good articles. When I am at his age, I’d rather stay home doing things that I love such as playing piano, playing with the grandkids, doing gardening etc.
 
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I think real estate is a good component to a healthy, diversified portfolio but I would not rely on real estate as the primary cog in my retirement machine. The problem with real estate is that it involves active maintainence and in most states you are charged a property tax (significant in some states) for holding it, and the field is highly cyclical and there are factors that are beyond your control (like if a neighborhood goes 'bad'). . I would probably make it no more than 25% of my portfolio at most. It is definitely possible to strike it rich in real estate, but those cases involve speculative actions beyond most peoples means and understanding.

I have 20+ rental properties spread out over four states and I never manage any of of them. The management companies deal with the tenants and direct deposit the money into my LLC bank account. Real estate income is nice cause the annual depreciation plus no paying of ss and medicare taxes reduce your tax burden A LOT. I only buy shortsales and foreclosures. Any property that makes it into the public multiple listing are not good for investment. The really good deals get snatched up by hedgefunds, re agents, and their preferred clients long before getting into realtor.com. There is something to to said about living a debt free frugal (not cheap) life and keeping lots of cash handy. That was how I was able to buy with cash all these properties at the bottom of the crash for pennies on the dollar. Charlesweed mentioned a house that had appreciated from $135k to $600k. However another house value can also drop from $600k to $135k and you can lose everything. Only invest with money you can afford to lose without losing sleep over.
 
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I have 20+ rental properties spread out over four states and I never manage any of of them. The management companies deal with the tenants and direct deposit the money into my LLC bank account. Real estate income is nice cause the annual depreciation plus no paying of ss and medicare taxes reduce your tax burden A LOT. I only buy shortsales and foreclosures. Any property that makes it into the public multiple listing are not good for investment. The really good deals get snatched up by hedgefunds, re agents, and their preferred clients long before getting into realtor.com. There is something to to said about living a debt free frugal (not cheap) life and keeping lots of cash handy. That was how I was able to buy with cash all these properties at the bottom of the crash for pennies on the dollar. Charlesweed mentioned a house that had appreciated from $135k to $600k. However another house value can also drop from $600k to $135k and you can lose everything. Only invest with money you can afford to lose without losing sleep over.

Nice.

In what states do you own property?

Re: the housing market, one thing to consider is that the government facilitated the housing bubble by forcing banks to lend to people who never should have received loans. One more destructive effect of government intervention.
 
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Orthodontics is, no doubt, the best job in the world. There are no other jobs out there that allow me to work only 4 hours a day…and most of the manual labors are performed by the dental assistants. I currently treat a kid whose parents are both dermatologists. Even his dermatologist parents admit that they are working harder than me. It is, however, still a job. And like any other jobs, it requires a lot of responsibilities. Right now, I am ok with going from door to door to beg the GPs for referrals. Right now, I am ok listening to angry unhappy parents who complain about me. I don’t want to face any of these, when I am 60+ years old. I am not as dedicated as Dr. Hilgers, who truly loves orthodontics and has written a lot of good articles. When I am at his age, I’d rather stay home doing things that I love such as playing piano, playing with the grandkids, doing gardening etc.

CT,
Are you on Yelp? I would recommend making sure you have a presence on there. It will add A LOT of business to your practice. When I got braces, Yelp helped me find an orthodontist who was near me. Also, are you ever open Saturdays or evenings? I am amazed at the number of orthos out there who work only 8-5 or something. One of the easiest ways to expand an ortho (or any dental) business is to offer evening and Saturday hours a few times per month.
 
Nice.

In what states do you own property?

Re: the housing market, one thing to consider is that the government facilitated the housing bubble by forcing banks to lend to people who never should have received loans. One more destructive effect of government intervention.

Here is an interesting and pretty good analysis of stocks vs. real-estate. The article covers the pros/cons of both in pretty good detail and does a very fair job in so far as I can tell.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/real_estate/0704/gallery.stocks_v_realestate.moneymag/index.html
 
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Here is an interesting and pretty good analysis of stocks vs. real-estate. The article covers the pros/cons of both in pretty good detail and does a very fair job in so far as I can tell.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/real_estate/0704/gallery.stocks_v_realestate.moneymag/index.html

Wall street banks, mutual fund companies, money managers, financial advisors always point out that stocks produced average returns of 10%. Don't expect them to tell you that more than 90% of the gain since the 1920's are simply the product of inflation. The returns aren't real. It's more like %1.5 -3%.
 
Wall street banks, mutual fund companies, money managers, financial advisors always point out that stocks produced average returns of 10%. Don't expect them to tell you that more than 90% of the gain since the 1920's are simply the product of inflation. The returns aren't real. It's more like %1.5 -3%.

I respectfully disagree. Where's your data to support your claim? Here are some data to counter it, though.

http://www.simplestockinvesting.com/SP500-historical-real-total-returns.htm
 
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A quick question - many comments were made about how great it is to be an orthodontist - aren't only the top 1-3 students in each class make it into orthodontics? How come there are no comments about health of general dentists over the long years? I am only learning here as I read all the helpful posts. My son is trying to decide between dentistry and medicine (he has already been accepted in combined programs) and we were just discussing tonight the possible back problems in dentistry. Is this a usual problem to anticipate?
 
A quick question - many comments were made about how great it is to be an orthodontist - aren't only the top 1-3 students in each class make it into orthodontics? How come there are no comments about health of general dentists over the long years? I am only learning here as I read all the helpful posts. My son is trying to decide between dentistry and medicine (he has already been accepted in combined programs) and we were just discussing tonight the possible back problems in dentistry. Is this a usual problem to anticipate?

My understanding is that there are back, hand, and wrist problems that can dampen or end a dentists career. These also exists in any surgical field of medicine. In fact the health standards for medical surgeons to operate are more rigorous than for dentists - meaning - a heart condition history can prevent you from operating.

It's not totally bleak, though. I know "disabled" cardiothoracic surgeon who had to stop his career early. However, through a disability policy he purchased during his working years he is able to earn ~10-15k/month until he is 65 not working. If your son decides to go medicine I would assume that most cognitive specialties would be a good hedge against most diseases that could cut his career short. There are also smaller fields in dentistry such as oral maxillofacial radiology and oral maxillofacial pathology that are more cognitive as well.

I think that if he decides on dentistry, or a surgical field of medicine, it is best to act responsibly by taking very good care of your body: eating properly, abstaining from excessively risky recreational activities (subjective), and engaging in healthy exercise. As a dental student I have developed these habits and feel that I'm the healthiest and strongest I've ever been because of it; my career goals are aligned with good health practices to ensure a long career.

The largest risk he is running by doing a combined program is making a lifelong career decision before he really knows himself.

PS - I don't think orthodontics is as competitive as you've indicated. If he's motivated, and works hard, he can do ortho.
 
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My understanding is that there are back, hand, and wrist problems that can dampen or end a dentists career. These also exists in any surgical field of medicine. In fact the health standards for medical surgeons to operate are more rigorous than for dentists.

It's not totally bleak, though. I know "disabled" cardiothoracic surgeon who had to stop his career early. However, through a disability policy he purchased during his working years he is able to earn ~10-15k/month until he is 65 not working. If your son decides to go medicine I would assume that most cognitive specialties would be a good hedge against most diseases that could cut his career short. There are also smaller fields in dentistry such as oral maxillofacial radiology and oral maxillofacial pathology that are more cognitive as well.

I think that if he decides on dentistry, or a surgical field of medicine, it is best to act responsibly by taking very good care of your body: eating properly, abstaining from excessively risky recreational activities (subjective), and engaging in healthy exercise. As a dental student I have developed these habits and feel that I'm the healthiest and strongest I've ever been because of it; my career goals are aligned with good health practices to ensure a long career.

The largest risk he is running by doing a combined program is making a lifelong career decision before he really knows himself.

PS - I don't think orthodontics is as competitive as you've indicated. If he's motivated, and works hard, he can do ortho.

I agree with what Yappy said. Ortho is not what it used to be. Their average income has declined, more general dentists are doing ortho, and the number of ortho programs has increased by about 40% in the past decade (I think). As a result, there are more spots for eager applicants. I have read many anecdotes on these forums in recent years that clearly indicate ortho is accessible to those outside the top 10%. I believe pedo is the new ortho, but that will soon change if the number of Lutheran programs is any indicator :laugh:

All that said, most specialists do well and I'm sure always will. Just know that markets change. Ortho is a great field for longevity. Elsewhere on SDN I posted an anecdote from a young orthodontist who was about to buy a practice from an 82-year old orthodontist, who wanted to continue working until he died. Ortho is the only dental field that would realistically allow you to work that long.

Re: disability--be sure to have a gold-plated disability policy. Don't skimp here, and don't cancel it as long as you are working. I've read numerous anecdotes of people from many fields--dentistry included--who canceled their policies, thinking, "ehhhh, I don't need it." Sure enough, something happened that disabled them.

Like Yappy, I have heard of dentists, namely specialists, who do not participate in certain potentially dangerous extracurricular activities (ie, skiing, wake boarding, etc..) for fear of damaging their hands. Be sure to have the best disability policy you can get. They aren't all that expensive, and it will be money well spent.

good luck.
 
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guess i should tone down the rock climbing
 
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Thanks Yappy and Silent Cool!
 
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Remember about car accidents, hard to avoid, but can definitely end a carreer
 
Wall street banks, mutual fund companies, money managers, financial advisors always point out that stocks produced average returns of 10%. Don't expect them to tell you that more than 90% of the gain since the 1920's are simply the product of inflation. The returns aren't real. It's more like %1.5 -3%.

Daurang,
The same could be said of real estate--much of the gains in value are due to simple inflation.
Each investment has its pros/cons, but stocks offer a chance to more easily diversify and also frequent volatility, which is simply a buying opportunity.
Consider also the costs associated with renting a property--yearly taxes, management fees, annual taxes on rental profits, and of course the dreaded repairs.

Both however are excellent investments, but for different reasons--provided that one buys during a major market decline.
 
I have 20+ rental properties spread out over four states and I never manage any of of them. The management companies deal with the tenants and direct deposit the money into my LLC bank account. Real estate income is nice cause the annual depreciation plus no paying of ss and medicare taxes reduce your tax burden A LOT. I only buy shortsales and foreclosures. Any property that makes it into the public multiple listing are not good for investment. The really good deals get snatched up by hedgefunds, re agents, and their preferred clients long before getting into realtor.com. There is something to to said about living a debt free frugal (not cheap) life and keeping lots of cash handy. That was how I was able to buy with cash all these properties at the bottom of the crash for pennies on the dollar. Charlesweed mentioned a house that had appreciated from $135k to $600k. However another house value can also drop from $600k to $135k and you can lose everything. Only invest with money you can afford to lose without losing sleep over.
My accountant strongly advised me against real estate investment, maybe I should get rid of him and use yours. :)

I have 3 properties: 1 rented, 1 for my parents and 1 for me and my wife. I have been practicing for 4 years now, and feel the low mortgage interest rates days will be behind us soon. Plus it depends on where you own properties, regardless who manages it, your net will not be $300-500 a month per unit after taxes, mortgage payments, management fees, community fees and miscellaneous expenses. It's a lot of work, even though the rental market is hot now, you still have to put your own six-figure money to purchase the next property or borrow from lender and carry more debt.

My next property would probably be a mid-end range, 1-2 bedroom, $200-400k, near tourist destinations or busy hotels, and list it as per day rental through Airbnb or Vrbo website for $100-200 a night. This is a great property for the short-stay market, like families or business travelers who want a great alternative to hotels. Even if you rent such property for 10 days out of the the whole month, at $100-200 a day, you are are looking a better return than a property you rent a full year. If I owned 20 of these properties, I would net $200-300k a year at the low end, or 3 times that amount if they were rented 90% of the month. The other benefit, if you own these properties in different cities, they could be vacation spots that I would use for myself and family and save on the cost of staying at a hotel.

Maybe I should run this by my accountant and get his support. :)
 
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My accountant strongly advised me against real estate investment, maybe I should get rid of him and use yours. :)

I have 3 properties: 1 rented, 1 for my parents and 1 for me and my wife. I have been practicing for 4 years now, and feel the low mortgage interest rates days will be behind us soon. Plus it depends on where you own properties, regardless who manages it, your net will not be $300-500 a month per unit after taxes, mortgage payments, management fees, community fees and miscellaneous expenses. It's a lot of work, even though the rental market is hot now, you still have to put your own six-figure money to purchase the next property or borrow from lender and carry more debt.

My next property would probably be a mid-end range, 1-2 bedroom, $200-400k, near tourist destinations or busy hotels, and list it as per day rental through Airbnb or Vrbo website for $100-200 a night. This is a great property for the short-stay market, like families or business travelers who want a great alternative to hotels. Even if you rent such property for 10 days out of the the whole month, at $100-200 a day, you are are looking a better return than a property you rent a full year. If I owned 20 of these properties, I would net $200-300k a year at the low end, or 3 times that amount if they were rented 90% of the month. The other benefit, if you own these properties in different cities, they could be vacation spots that I would use for myself and family and save on the cost of staying at a hotel.

Maybe I should run this by my accountant and get his support. :)

I WOULD ADVISE AGAINST IT TOO. After all the expenses and headaches, even in high priced popular tourist area, it's not worth it. My purchases were 5 years new, cost only $25K-$40K each, and rent out $800 monthly. After all expenses and depreciation, it made financial sense because the annual return on investment is %18-%25. Those days are gone so don't ask me how to get it. Hoard your cash and don't get anything less than 10% return.

Now let's look at the number for your projected 20 properties at $300K ($200k-$400k) each and netting $250K ($200k-$300k) annually. $250k/$6Mil is only 4% return which is horrible. With $6Mil cash, why not throw the money in cd or under the mattress and be set for life? If you're mortgaging the $6Mil, then you're crazily over leveraging yourself which you shouldn't do. Hedgefund managers do the same calculation and buy when they get the number they want. If the number don't come in properly, don't buy. Hoard your cash for better buys.
 
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I WOULD ADVISE AGAINST IT TOO. After all the expenses and headaches, even in high priced popular tourist area, it's not worth it. My purchases were 5 years new, cost only $25K-$40K, and rent out $800 monthly. After all expenses, it made financial sense since the annual return on investment is %15-25. Those days are gone so don't ask me how to get it. Hoard your cash and don't get anything less than 10% return.
$25-$40k? That's completely bottom of the market prices and possibly Section 8 HUD zone, or maybe student type accommodations, I'm just speculating.

But my plan was for more of the higher income tenants, middle class group. You should check out Airbnb.com - this is changing how people find short term stays.

By no means I'm not going to spend money with a risk of <10% return.
 
$25-$40k? That's completely bottom of the market prices and possibly Section 8 HUD zone, or maybe student type accommodations, I'm just speculating.

YES. They're in economically depressed area but not anywhere as bad as Detroit or Camden.

YES . Airbnb, vrbo, and redweek are great for vacation rentals. My next vacation is booked thru them.

You got a great thing going with constructing and expanding your dental practice empire. I don't think anything else is as safe nor as profitable.
 
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YES. They're in economically depressed area but not anywhere as bad as Detroit or Camden.

YES . Airbnb, vrbo, and redweek are great for vacation rentals. My next vacation is booked thru them.

You got a great thing going with constructing and expanding your dental practice empire. I don't think anything else is as safe nor as profitable.
I stopped expanding after 3 locations, section 179 of the tax law expired 12.31.2013. It went from $500k to $25k. That has been a driving force for writing off a lot of my equipments.

I'm still considering rental properties, so I'm still open to your suggestions my friend. :)
 
Make sure maxing out a 401k applies to your situation...

401k's were implemented in the 70s, when taxes were at 60-80%. At that time, they couldn't go much higher, so yeah, it was a great place to put money to avoid taxes. Now, taxes are at 20-40%. Well is there much indication they will go lower in the future? I'll let you answer that. So by investing in a 401k, you are saying...

"I don't want to pay ~30% taxes today, so I can pay taxes in the future." Well if your answer to the previous question was no, then you agree you will pay higher than ~30% on your money when you withdraw it.

"Well I'll be in a lower tax bracket when I retire." Any one thinking that? Ok great, well do you understand how taxes work? The difference between marginal and effective tax brackets? Why would you work so hard to retire in a lower tax bracket (you live a lower lifestyle in retirement than in your working years)? You'll also lose out on many exclusions (assuming mortgage is paid off, no more dependents, etc.). So why do you work? Everyone works so they can live the retirement they dream of, with the ones they love (I would imagine). And if not, well more power to you.

Oh yeah, and when you put all your money in a 401k that money is essentially in jail until 59.5. Opportunity to buy another office/practice? Well crap, I have to cash out my 401k, adios to 10% of it.

What I just said may not be relevant to some of you, but the point I wanted to make is that their are other ways, and there is no one size fits all solution for everyone. So weigh your options, see what's available to you, and decide what the best route is for your situation. Be careful what you read and how you interpret it.

Or you could backdoor your 401K into a Roth IRA, pay taxes now and never again....
 
Or you could backdoor your 401K into a Roth IRA, pay taxes now and never again....

I believe you can only do the conversion based on your income level. If you make more than a certain amount you can't do it.
 
Or you could backdoor your 401K into a Roth IRA, pay taxes now and never again....

Can someone give me a quick-and-dirty explanation of what a Backdoor Roth is? I'm curious. Can you put in more than the 5.5k with a traditional Roth?
 
What about holistic dentistry? All you do is consult. :) One can expect to work in this area until the gate of heaven open up.
 
Can someone give me a quick-and-dirty explanation of what a Backdoor Roth is? I'm curious. Can you put in more than the 5.5k with a traditional Roth?

You can convert your 401K balance to a ROTH IRA, which is a loophole around the 5.5 max contribution. You simply have to pay taxes on the conversion amount.
 
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