how many of you non-science majors take calculus?

[exilio]

Hey all,

I know I am in the minority for being a non-science major and trying to get into medical school. I just wanted to know if the non-science major people shy away from calculus.

I myself am just looking to take stats..and MAYBE an intro to calculus class.

Any words of wisdom for this tactic?

Thanks in advance.

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[Nvr Ending Jrny]

1) more non-science majors are accepted into medical school then science majors so don't think you're a minority when applying to med school

2) lots of non-science majors require various forms of math (calc, stat, etc.)

I personally am a psychology/business major and I have taken calc analytic geometry and stat 210....They are both VERY different. i took calculus in high school and I happen to be fairly gifted when it comes to calc so it wasn't so bad. stat on the other hand is more difficult so far for me (taking it this semester). If you are good at math in the traditional sense (numbers/formulas/calculations) then i would go with calc, but if you aren't much of a math person then go with stat cause just about anyone can pull out an A in that class if you try hard enough. it's more about general concepts and seeing patterns, etc.

good luck.

 

[docjolly]

you're not alone!!

i was a history major! when i was an undergrad, i did take calculus...and let's just say that it whipped my butt(well, not completely b/c i stilll passed with a mediocre grade)...

but i believe my problems with calc. had nothing to do with whether or not i was a science major. my problems with calc. were conceptually based..

i'm not completely certain, but I do believe many medical schools require 1 yr. of calculus (not statistics) in order to apply..

don't fear calculus! if possible, take the introduction class and determine if you are able to do the material successfully...

 

[exilio]

Thanks for the responses.

My hesitation with calc is from fear and from lack of time.

My schedule is pretty full as is and trying to squeeze calc in there when it is not required by most schools would be very taxing.

I will be taking stats next quarter for sure. But it seems highly unlikely I will have time to do anything more than an intro to calc class. Even that is not 100%.

I just want to make sure I don't hose myself by not taking it.

 

[jbish]

My college required a math class as a core curriculum and my friend, an English major, took multivariable calculus (calc III) to fill that requirement. Granted, she's smarter than a lot of people I know....but I figured that was a pretty extreme example of a nonscience major taking calculus just for the hell of it when she could have taken Math 101: How to add and subtract instead.

 

[exilio]

Math for fun? The concept is very foreign to me.

You see, I look at it this way..how often is a doctor going to use calculus? Myabe research doctors would. I am interested in emergency medicine. I love science, but high level calcs usefulness is not apparent to me.

But I think my biggest issue is with trying to squeeze itno my schedule more than anything else.

 

[rambo]

Bleh, I refuse to take calc. I plan to get by with a year of stats or something else. Go religion majors!

 

[vtucci]

History/Political Science Double Major here-- I took a semester of Calc so far and will take a second this summer.

 

[twinklz]

English major. Turned out I was a bit of a whiz at Calculus and set the curve for all the tests. Try it, you never know what you're good at!

 

[DD214_DOC]

I took the BA/Social Science Calculus, if that counts. We did derivatives and integrals and stuff, but nothing too nasty. I think the real calc classes do proofs?

Funny you should mention being a minority for being a non-sci major. Here, psych is the second most common major for premed students, at least it was 2 years ago. Chemistry is a distant third with bio being the first, naturally.

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by exilio
...when it is not required by most schools would be very taxing.

I thought that only a minority of state schools didn't require calculus. While I don't think that a doctor is ever going to bust out an intergral table in the OR, I do think that there are quantitative concepts that calc teaches that are fundamental to understanding of medically related ideas--such as buildup of blood-plasma concentrations, pH buffering, logarithmic decay of radioisotopes, etc.

We take for granted that calc is too hard for most people, and that is patently false. It's only hard if you make it hard. Trust me, this is coming from a person that got several Ds and Fs in HS math classes, but then went on to set the curves in calc because I suddenly saw it as relevant and interesting.

My genetics teacher last semester made a point about this tendency for Americans to hate math last semester. He went to a university in a bad neighborhood in Russia, and he said that the way to tell the educated from the local thugs was to ask "what's the second derivative of e to the x?" Every educated person, from the linguists to the philosophers to the engineers would know the answer to this in Russia, and that can be assumed. In America, we let our hatred for calc own us.

It not as hard as you're telling yourself, and not taking calc will bar you from entering a number of medical schools.

Fear not, and good luck. You can learn to master calculus.

 

[edik]

Take calculus. It is required at many schools.
I was a computer science major. Had to take 1.5 years worth of calculus. Got all A's though!

 

[rambo]

From what I understand there are only about 15-20 Allo schools that require calc.

 

[Sharkfan]

I am a non-science major (English and Anthropology) and took Calculus I and II. I wanted to keep my options open.

And I agree with a lot of posters who said that math is what you make of it. Although I hated it all, I actually thought Calculus II was easier than Calculus I. Go figure...

 

[5639953]

I am a math major... There is a huge difference between math and stat... They are two different departments/subjects... I know that there is alot of math in stat... but that doesn't mean they are the same... There is alot of math in physics... Are they the same!! noooooo!!! and just to let you know, if you UNDERSTAND math, you will find out that it is in almost everything, including medicine big time... At least one would see reasoning behind facts in medicine by using mathematical concepts...

If you have the intension to understand calculus, then take it... It will for sure help your career in medicine... Notice that understanding calculus doesn't mean doing all the problems in the book... It just means that you visualize it and see how it fits all together...

I personally think it would be alot more important than a stat course, especially if the stat course was the simplest one offered, as it is all common sense and you won't learn much in it.

That was my 2 cents, and good luck with what ever you do

 

[exilio]

I really appreciate all the responses.

However, I think it really boils down to having no time.

Right now I am in the middle of my first year at a JC. And my schedule is filled up with GE reqs and pre-med reqs.

When I xfer to a 4 year, I will need to take physics and org chem concurrently. So that is already two classes per semester. That leaves me time to take two others...andi would imagine I will need those to satisfy my major in English.

I just don't see how I could squeeze calculus in there. Any thoughts?

 

[Fish3715]

Here's a list of what math classes specific med schools do (and don't) need:

http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/resources/health/Calculus Course Requirements by State.pdf

 

[Ernham]

I've spoken to a small number of doctors and read many more. Calculuswas by far the most cited "useless course" they did in Ugrad.

 

[exilio]

Originally posted by Fish3715
Here's a list of what math classes specific med schools do (and don't) need:

http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/resources/health/Calculus Course Requirements by State.pdf

Fish,

Thanks for the EXCELLENT PDF!

I went through it and organized it into three categories:

Required (anywhere from 1 beginning class in stats, calc or algebra to higher)

Recommended (anywhere from recommended to strongly encouraged)

Not Required (flatly not required or no mention of math requirement)

So, the stats:


Required: 51 out of 125 (40.8%)
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Recommended: 11 out of 125 (8.8%)
|||||||||

Not required: 62 out of 125 (49.6%)
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||


From my cursory examination I could see no pattern based on region or reputation of school.

By that I mean, schools in California, private or public were split on math requirements. And "marquee" schools like Harvard and Yale were split on it as well. Yale having no math requirement and Harvard asking for one year of calculus.

Thanks again.

Unfortunately I still don't even see how I could come up with the time to take the classes anyways.

 

[Cerberus]

I think the math classes i've taken are by far the most useful thing I have taken from college. Will calculus directly apply to medicine? Chances are no - though there are currently some somewhat abstract research projects into nonlinear biological systems that I am assured will change medicine. However, the insight into the world that you gain through understanding these very simple subjects is indispensable. I truly do not understand Americas math phobia nor do I understand how we will continue to advance significantly if our scientists cannot even understand a simple derivitive. Further, i dont see how one can possibly understand physics without understanding the system upon which it is built - calculus.

Simple demostration

we know an object has an accelleration "a"

therefore we know that integrated with respect to variable t, "a" gives us the velocity (v) in the form v = a*t+c where c is the constant of integration

integration of a velocity gives us the position (x) so

x=1/2*a*t^2+c*t+b

look familiar? Little bit easier to remember a formula when you can derive it from a constant "a", no?

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by Cerberus
I think the math classes i've taken are by far the most useful thing I have taken from college. Will calculus directly apply to medicine? Chances are no - though there are currently some somewhat abstract research projects into nonlinear biological systems that I am assured will change medicine. However, the insight into the world that you gain through understanding these very simple subjects is indispensable. I truly do not understand Americas math phobia nor do I understand how we will continue to advance significantly if our scientists cannot even understand a simple derivitive. Further, i dont see how one can possibly understand physics without understanding the system upon which it is built - calculus.

Simple demostration

we know an object has an accelleration "a"

therefore we know that integrated with respect to variable t, "a" gives us the velocity (v) in the form v = a*t+c where c is the constant of integration

integration of a velocity gives us the position (x) so

x=1/2*a*t^2+c*t+b

look familiar? Little bit easier to remember a formula when you can derive it from a constant "a", no?

Several practicing doctors > cerberus's babbling. Look at that! I know how to do inequalities!

 

[exilio]

Ouch.

Heh heh.

Well Cerebrus you may likey the math, and the US fear of it may be unwarranted. But it's not as if the American public school system offers a rigorous curriculum in math. So I think it's the ignorance that breeds the fear. Which is true of most things I suppose.

Anyways. I fear it, but I fear ochem too. I have no problem taking them on. I like to learn new things. My main concern stems from lack of time. I see no way to schedule it in. If anyone has some insight as to how it is feasible I would love to hear it.

Thanks again.

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by Ernham
Several practicing doctors > cerberus's babbling. Look at that! I know how to do inequalities!

Right, because as we can see from SDN Doctors are all brilliant and infallible. Guess how much of ugrad applies to being a doctor? VERY ****ING LITTLE! What matters is that you learn how to think in undergrad (which you obviously have not).

My advice to Ernham would be to quit being such a goddamn bitch, suck it up, and quit ****ing whining about every class he has to take. WAH I HAVE TO TAKE CALCULUS, WAH I HAVE TO TAKE ETHNIC STUDIES WAH WAH WAH

JESUS DUDE SHOVE A TAMPON IN IT AND STFU!

 

[exilio]

Guys, could you not turn this into a flame war please?

I understand how you feel cerb, but I am sure you would agree your last posting isn't going to help anyone.

I fully know what you are talking about. Often times we may take a course that is not directly related to the field we are interested in, but there is something to learn and take with you. I think calc can help build those skills. But I still hate the idea of taking it.

So, in the spirit of diplomacy would you mind editing your post a tad; to soften it?

Thanks man.

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by Cerberus
Right, because as we can see from SDN Doctors are all brilliant and infallible. Guess how much of ugrad applies to being a doctor? VERY ****ING LITTLE! What matters is that you learn how to think in undergrad (which you obviously have not).

My advice to Ernham would be to quit being such a goddamn bitch, suck it up, and quit ****ing whining about every class he has to take. WAH I HAVE TO TAKE CALCULUS, WAH I HAVE TO TAKE ETHNIC STUDIES WAH WAH WAH

JESUS DUDE SHOVE A TAMPON IN IT AND STFU!

I can't stand people complaining about having to learn. If you want to complain about unfair grading systems or heavy courseloads, fine and dandy. But I gotta back you up on the idea that math constitutes some of the most fundamental and broadly applicable principles in my undergraduate experience. Few classes will bring so much elucidation.

I think the fear breeds the ignorance, not the other way around.

 

[rambo]

If you don't want to take calc, then don't. You saw the list for yourself, and unless you are hellbent on going to a school that requires it, then DON'T take it. I don't see what the problem is. I'm not taking it, because I don't WANT to. That obviously means I won't be applying to the schools that require SPECIFICALLY calc. I'll have my math reqs covered through other means, and I'll happily apply to those schools that fit my completed coursework.

 

[exilio]

I appreciate what your saying.

But here is the deal. I am at a JC and may end up not going to marquee 4 year when I transfer. Now because I can't but because it is more financially feasible to go to a State school just down the road from me.

So being that I am starting later in life, doing some pre-reqs at a JC and possibly going to a lesser known state school...I will need to play the numbers game. And that means sending out as many apps as possible. And if I satisy the math req than I can send out to even more; especially those within my state.

Does that help clear things up?

I'm as confused as a woodpecker in a petrified forest.

 

[Fish3715]

Well, you don't have to have your pre-reqs completed when you apply...but by when you matriculate (right?), so couldn't you just take calculus later if you were accepted to a school that needed it (I don't know how realistic of an option this is...just throwing it out there)?

 

[exilio]

Fish,

I have thought about that too. But here is the breakdown..let me know if there is flawed logic here:

I xfer toa 4 year:

Jr. Year:
1st sem:
* Org Chem
* Physics
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

2nd sem:
1st sem:
* Org Chem
* Physics
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

Sr. Year
1st sem:
* Upper div biology class
* Possible math class in here??
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

2nd sem:
* Upper div biology class
* Possible math class in here?
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

That really only leaves me two possible slots...hell I am not even sure I would even be able to get my Bacc in English with that pace.

 

[benelswick]

Dear poster--
I can relate to your situation. I too am working full-time and have found myself drawn to medicine later in life. I'm taking physics and some GE at a community college and trying to get on with all of this stuff. I want to be a doctor after all.
There is merit in the argument of mathematical skill being universally applicable and personally empowering. I study Physics with a guy who has a bachelor's in Math and computer Science; his math skills enables him to move quickly through things that slow me down.
But we all have strengths and weaknesses. While some people were taking calculus III and Neurophysiology I was caretaking a 90 y/o man who was former share-cropper in the deep south. What does the sum toal of each of our experiences mean....maybe we're not to be the judge of that...but I'll tell you one thing I may not be designing experimental models on the cutting edge of medicine but if If a patient pukes on my shoes I'm not likely to fly off the handle either.
So what i mean is maybe you and I don't have the time to take calculus and so we might just have to play the odds layed out in that pdf file. Good Luck--Ben.

 

[AlternateSome1]

Originally posted by exilio
Fish,

I have thought about that too. But here is the breakdown..let me know if there is flawed logic here:

I xfer toa 4 year:

Jr. Year:
1st sem:
* Org Chem
* Physics
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

2nd sem:
1st sem:
* Org Chem
* Physics
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

Sr. Year
1st sem:
* Upper div biology class
* Possible math class in here??
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

2nd sem:
* Upper div biology class
* Possible math class in here?
* Eng Class (major)
* Eng Class (major)

That really only leaves me two possible slots...hell I am not even sure I would even be able to get my Bacc in English with that pace.

You might need to take 5 classes a semester. I think the standard number of credits to graduate is 120. This equates to 15 per semester for 4 years. That is generally 5 classes a semester at 3 each. If this is too much, then you might need to extend your time by an extra year to fit in the rest of your classes.

~AS1~

 

[breski]

So my two cents are this. I took one semester of calc in college. I majored in French and Poli Sci , did some post bacc stuff, and now work at NIH as a statistician. Seriously, learn all you can in your undergrad experience. I got the job here because of my language skills and broad background in anthropology and psychology--now I really wish I would have taken stats so that I wouldn't have to be doing all this remedial work to understand structural equation modeling.

I have to disagree with the person that said your undergrad doesn't apply to being a doctor. I work with doctors everyday that use math, logical reasoning, complex data analysis, language skills, history, cultural studies and anthropology. In college you are building a foundation--so I say build it broad. Plus it certainly helps when getting into med school to have something to say at interviews--3 accepts so far with admittedly lower numbers than most of those who post their stats. Forgive me if this sounds preachy...not my intention. Ahh too late, I know I am gonna take flack for this, but hey I am new here and hardly anyone ever responds anyway. ARGH. I apologize in advance.

 

[exilio]

Originally posted by AlternateSome1
You might need to take 5 classes a semester. I think the standard number of credits to graduate is 120. This equates to 15 per semester for 4 years. That is generally 5 classes a semester at 3 each. If this is too much, then you might need to extend your time by an extra year to fit in the rest of your classes.

~AS1~

A good thought. However the state schools offer some courses as 3 units, but other state schools are 4-5 units per course on the semester system. So myabe I would have to play it by ear.

ex. San Jose State has organic chem for 3 units...while Cal has organic chem for 5 units. And both are on the semester system.

So I am not sure what to make of that.

And breski, I appreciate what you are saying..but once again, my problems stems more from not being sure where I could even fit in a math class. I have no doubt there is value in taking a math class..but unless I want to live in an academic black hole I don't see myself having the time to take a class.

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by exilio
A good thought. However the state schools offer some courses as 3 units, but other state schools are 4-5 units per course on the semester system. So myabe I would have to play it by ear.

ex. San Jose State has organic chem for 3 units...while Cal has organic chem for 5 units. And both are on the semester system.

So I am not sure what to make of that.

And breski, I appreciate what you are saying..but once again, my problems stems more from not being sure where I could even fit in a math class. I have no doubt there is value in taking a math class..but unless I want to live in an academic black hole I don't see myself having the time to take a class.

Make sure you aren't cnfusing the organic classes. Most campuses have a survey course that is usually 5 credits for one semester. Meanwhile, some campuses have organic I and II on four credits a semester, each with a lab. Others, however, have org ! with no lab and only 3 credits, while the second semester is 5 credits(2credit lab)

 

[exilio]

Hmmm.

Things seem to have gotten more complex. Some of the schools I am looking at like UCSD and UC Berkeley offer onlt calculus based Physics courses.

So that sucks. I'm either being forced into going to a chool with a non calc-based physics course or I am looking at 3 years instead of two when I xfer.

help...

 

[5639953]

Dude, just take the Calculus course over the summer... You didn't include any summers in your plan... It might be hard, but important, you know?

Calc is very useful... Veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy useful.. If nothing else, it makes your reasoning skills 10 times better if you understand it... But you should understand it... not like how 90% of the students do, who keep working math problems out till the memorize it...

Take it and if you have any questions, I don't mind helping out... Good luck, hope that helps..

 

[exilio]

It's a good thought.

This summer is spoken for however. And at my JC, you can't tale precalc until you take trig...and to add insult to injury it's a trig class that is worth ZERO units for transfer...so I am not inclined to take a class that counts for nothing. If I wait to xfer I can take trig for credits that count. But the point is moot if I do that because I still won't have the experience necessary to take calc based physics.

the progression would be something like this:

trig>>>precalc>calc1>free to take most physics classes anywhere now.

That means having to take 15 extra units, 5 of which do not count towards getting the one calc ulus class I need. And to be honest I would rather not take calc based physics.

So the dilemma deepens it would seem.

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by exilio
Hmmm.

Things seem to have gotten more complex. Some of the schools I am looking at like UCSD and UC Berkeley offer onlt calculus based Physics courses.

So that sucks. I'm either being forced into going to a chool with a non calc-based physics course or I am looking at 3 years instead of two when I xfer.

help...

Berkeley's physics 8a/8b series isn't rigorously calc based, and from what I understand, they only really expect you to ba able to follow the logic of the calculus used in the descriptions and derivations, rather than expecting you to use calculus in any serious way. For Molecular and Cell Biology (MCB), which is the standard pre-med major, you are required to take the same calculus that engineers and math majors take their first year; yet the calculus that is a prereq to the physics 8 series is the "calculus for poets" series (math 16) as my ex used to call it. It's only one dimensional, and the only reason they require it at all is probably because it helps you see the trend in equations of motion, as described by Cerberus. No one really checks prereqs at Cal, and I bet that the physics 8 professors know that most of their students abhor and fear calc, so I don't think you need to be too worried. I'd wager that you could probably take math 16 and phys 8a concurrently, and be fine in both--it certainly would be less of a challenge than your firts year of med school promises to be.

I can also say that I took precalc at a JC without ever taking trig--not even in HS--and I got a solid A in that class, despite being a C-/D- student in my Algebra II in the 12th grade. Unless you know the system will reject your attempts to enroll without a prereq, I would ignore the prereq. And if they do have prereq checking software, I'd talk to the teacher about getting an add code, and if you explain your situation, they'll likely be happy to work with you. Premeds are harder working than the average student from which prereqs are implemented in the first place.

Lots of people will talk about the uselessness of calculus, but I for one feel that trig is far more useless than calc. pre-calc will give you the necessary introduction to trig, but there really isn't much point in taking a class that is about trig manipulations and memorizing identity functions and crap when you will seldom need that learning later. I'm an engineering major and I've never been at any disadvantage for not having trig, so I doubt you will find yourself wanting it.

Skip trig, take precalc over the summer, and then go on to physics.

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by Nutmeg


Lots of people will talk about the uselessness of calculus, but I for one feel that trig is far more useless than calc. pre-calc will give you the necessary introduction to trig, but there really isn't much point in taking a class that is about trig manipulations and memorizing identity functions and crap when you will seldom need that learning later. I'm an engineering major and I've never been at any disadvantage for not having trig, so I doubt you will find yourself wanting it.

I agree regarding trig being fairly useless. You will never need more than very basic trig in college. I am a mathematics major and I have encountered very very little trig. Generally in the calc classes when doing something that can be made easier by trig identity, the professors allow you to use a trig table.

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by Cerberus
I agree regarding trig being fairly useless. You will never need more than very basic trig in college. I am a mathematics major and I have encountered very very little trig. Generally in the calc classes when doing something that can be made easier by trig identity, the professors allow you to use a trig table.

Yeah, I've never had a calc test or a calc-based test that didn't let me use at least my TI-83.

 

[exilio]

Thanks again for the feedback.

At my JC there is a system that checks to see if you have taken a pre-req before the lock comes off to take a class you want. So I won't be able to get in that way.

Perhaps, and it's really a long shot I can see about speakign with a counselor or teacher about bypassing trig and getting into pre-calc. But they are almost militant about math and science pre-reqs.