How many patients do you see per day?

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How many patients do you see per day?

  • <20

    Votes: 14 29.2%
  • 20-25

    Votes: 16 33.3%
  • 26-30

    Votes: 1 2.1%
  • 31-35

    Votes: 4 8.3%
  • 36-40

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • 41-45

    Votes: 1 2.1%
  • 46-50

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 51-55

    Votes: 1 2.1%
  • 56-60

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 60-70

    Votes: 6 12.5%

  • Total voters
    48

Merely

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I ask this question because I am shadowing a family doctor in his practice that is seeing 60 patients a day. Most of them are followups but he spends like 5 minutes per patient. It seems like a lot but it's pretty impressive, I don't really know what to make of it. Is that normal? How much money is this guy making? Is he like making bank or something and comprising patient care? This is in a pretty poor neighborhood/city.

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Where did he train? I work with 2 Canadian trained physicians that regularly see 40-60/day, don't know if it includes what their PA sees -- 5 minute visits -- now that's 5 minutes of physician time, not support staff time --

I do know of one American trained FM doc that schedules 10 minute visits --- works with a very good nurse he's had for years, trained his patients that way, works from 7am to 2pm and goes home to his small farm which is where he really wants to be -- his philosophy -- "When I'm at work, I work -- I'm not there to mess around. I don't like to work so I get it done as efficiently as I can and my patients know that". Given that his practice is in a very busy, upper middle class suburb, he says his patients appreciate the short wait times/short office visits as they have places to go/people to see and don't want to spend half a day in a doctor's office. He banks around $300k/year -- or that's what he'd admit to.

The 2 Canadians? Let's just say they're living in $750K+ homes in the burbs, driving Audis and one owns a boat that I know of.....but they've been doing this since the 90s and are partners in a very nice, thriving practice.
 
I mean if people on here are talking about seeing 25 patients a day and making 250k a year then this guy must be making upwards of 400k seeing that many patients. Although I don't think that is in the best interest of the patient, what the hell do I know lol. He's an american DO btw.
 
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I mean if people on here are talking about seeing 25 patients a day and making 250k a year then this guy must be making upwards of 400k seeing that many patients. Although I don't think that is in the best interest of the patient, what the hell do I know lol. He's an american DO btw.
I bet it's more like 600k. You can run the numbers yourself. Just figure out the medicare reimbursements for a routine established visit (99213 or 99214), multiply that by 60pts/day X 5days/week X 48 working weeks in a year. Also don't forget to deduct ~1/2 of the gross amount for overhead cost.
 
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I bet it's more like 600k. You can run the numbers yourself. Just figure out the medicare reimbursements for a routine established visit (99213 or 99214), multiply that by 60pts/day X 5days/week X 48 working weeks in a year. Also don't forget to deduct ~1/2 of the gross amount for overhead cost.

That's pretty insane, he doesn't even seem that well off just a little practice with him, his MA, one nurse and one receptionist girl. Very interesting.
 
Patient population is everything. I could easily see 30 20-50 y/o stable patients (usually private insurance) in a day without breaking a sweat. Older Medicare/Caid usually isn't so simple. There's a reason that a lot of doctors aren't accepting new 'Care/'Caid patients. To do a halfway decent job with those usually requires at least 10 minutes and then the documentation for the SEVERAL issues you've addressed that day.
 
Usually around six patients per day. I'm full time but I have a Direct Primary Care (DPC) practice so my panel is much smaller and I handle a lot of issues over the phone (if medically appropriate).

When I owned an insurance oriented practice I'd see only 18-20 but that was mainly because I had a very geriatric population with multiple chronic problems and little peds. Back then it was almost all 99214s with a 99215 many days and few 99213s.
 
Location and insurance are big factors. If you don't see any Medicaid your day becomes more manageable. Also, if your practice is a PCMH practice, there's no way you can be efficient. PCMH means Patient Care Must Halt.
 
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Location and insurance are big factors. If you don't see any Medicaid your day becomes more manageable. Also, if your practice is a PCMH practice, there's no way you can be efficient. PCMH means Patient Care Must Halt.

Can you elaborate I don't really understand what you mean?
 
I work urgent care 12 hour shifts. I saw 43 yesterday, 26 today. 25-30 is my average but generally my day is one complaint and I don't do any chronic med refills or preventative things like mammo, colonoscopy, etc.
 
PCMH has killed the simple and efficient triage of a patient, and killed the simple but meaningful progress note. There is now a list of things your MA must do during the triage process of every single patient. Likewise, there is a list of boxes docs must check on every single note. It now takes twice as long to triage a patient than it used to.

Medicaid patients come with medicaid problems. Typically, their problem list and med lists are much, much longer compared to a private pay patient. They see you more frequently. Not only do you have to give due diligence to their chronic problems but they'll usually have at least a couple acute issues that need to be addressed at each office visit. The visits last longer, the notes are longer, they call your front office more and you end up getting paid less for it. I see a large amount of medicaid patients and it can be draining.
 
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PCMH has killed the simple and efficient triage of a patient, and killed the simple but meaningful progress note. There is now a list of things your MA must do during the triage process of every single patient. Likewise, there is a list of boxes docs must check on every single note. It now takes twice as long to triage a patient than it used to.

Medicaid patients come with medicaid problems. Typically, their problem list and med lists are much, much longer compared to a private pay patient. They see you more frequently. Not only do you have to give due diligence to their chronic problems but they'll usually have at least a couple acute issues that need to be addressed at each office visit. The visits last longer, the notes are longer, they call your front office more and you end up getting paid less for it. I see a large amount of medicaid patients and it can be draining.
My first job out of residency was a medicaid/care clinic the local Catholic hospital set up to take pressure of their ER and you've described the situation perfectly.
 
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I'm a Canadian Fam doc, who just finished residency. I am comfortably seeing on average 25 patients a day from 9-430. But most fee for service docs in my area see 30-50/day. I have heard its easy to see that many a day after you get to know your patients because you already know their history when they come in.


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PCMH has killed the simple and efficient triage of a patient, and killed the simple but meaningful progress note. There is now a list of things your MA must do during the triage process of every single patient. Likewise, there is a list of boxes docs must check on every single note. It now takes twice as long to triage a patient than it used to.

Medicaid patients come with medicaid problems. Typically, their problem list and med lists are much, much longer compared to a private pay patient. They see you more frequently. Not only do you have to give due diligence to their chronic problems but they'll usually have at least a couple acute issues that need to be addressed at each office visit. The visits last longer, the notes are longer, they call your front office more and you end up getting paid less for it. I see a large amount of medicaid patients and it can be draining.

Very interesting comment --- I recall seeing a discharge summary from a long time FM doc who still saw his patients in the hospital while I was in residency. He was the kind of guy who still wore a suit to work while seeing patients, old line FM doc that probably had forgotten more about doctoring than the next 2 FM grads know put together, you know the type.

This patient had been in for a week and had several significant studies done -- this guy tells me he'll take care of the discharge, no worries. Ok, so I go back to check the notes/discharge orders. The entire discharge summary for a 1 week stay was about 1/2 of a written page -- handwritten mind you; effectively communicated what was needed, spelled out the plan after discharge well and done. None of the 4 pages of mickey mouse defecate that we were required to write.... this guy did the job and documented it well enough to communicate to other physicians what had happened and screw everyone else. Loved it.

One of the more attractive things I hear about DPC is the absolute lack of need of documentation. Most of the stuff we do is for insurance purposes anyway......but I digress....
 
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One of the more attractive things I hear about DPC is the absolute lack of need of documentation. Most of the stuff we do is for insurance purposes anyway......but I digress....
Yes, I am a psychiatrist and I hear similar things from cash-only private practice psychiatrists out there - if you don't have to cater to the insurance companies, you can just focusing on documenting the clinically relevant details! Sounds almost too good to be true, doesn't it? I can't imagine how much more time I'd have if I could just jot a quick note about what is actually going on with the patient rather than clicking a bunch of boxes in Epic.
 
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Merely, I hope mark v answered your question. He put it quite well.
 
Merely, I hope mark v answered your question. He put it quite well.

Yeah he did, I'm just really worried about the future of medicine since I really want to be in a field that will allow me to set up my own practice and not be employed and I thought that FM was the specialty most resistant to that but I think that all of medicine may be going in the way of us being employed sooner or later.
 
Derm and Ophthal are still very friendly to setting up yor own shop. Insurance still has their claws in your pocket, but there's no political clamoring for more 'access' to those fields so the government seems to be leaving them alone more compared to us. I wish I could say I see the landscape getting simpler, but I'd be lying to you and myself.

For now, urgent care actually still does pretty well and is possible to set up your own shop. They're not locked down by PCMH and the nature of the visits go reasonably fast.
 
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Derm and Ophthal are still very friendly to setting up yor own shop. Insurance still has their claws in your pocket, but there's no political clamoring for more 'access' to those fields so the government seems to be leaving them alone more compared to us. I wish I could say I see the landscape getting simpler, but I'd be lying to you and myself.

For now, urgent care actually still does pretty well and is possible to set up your own shop. They're not locked down by PCMH and the nature of the visits go reasonably fast.
Uhh, not so much. Why don't you go ask an ophthalmologist what their current cataract reimbursement is from Medicare?
 
But wait guys, can someone put me at ease by saying that FM will always allow the business minded to open up shop? Or are we in such a bad situation that in 15-20 years we all actually have to be employed at mega corporate hospital systems?
 
He's probably not making much. Family docs work like animals and very few make a lot of money. Cheap paying patients and high overhead. Best bet for FM docs at least today is to go to underserved areas. Now you can make money if you are very smart and get into the business aspect of things but that can be said for any profession.
 
He's probably not making much. Family docs work like animals and very few make a lot of money. Cheap paying patients and high overhead. Best bet for FM docs at least today is to go to underserved areas. Now you can make money if you are very smart and get into the business aspect of things but that can be said for any profession.

Someone earlier said he was making like 600k, can you explain why you disagree with that person?
 
Is he using an EMR and seeing that many patients?

While possible it's certainly not the norm. He must have a pretty efficient office/intake process/staff to make that work and he has to get started on time, take very few, if any, breaks and not waste any time chatting. Certainly is impressive if he is able to give good, thorough care and do all the necessary EMR "crap"...

I'm in a IM-sub specialty and during an afternoon clinic we may have anywhere from 18-28 patients, most are stable f/ups with maybe 2-4 new ones during that time.
 
Someone earlier said he was making like 600k, can you explain why you disagree with that person?

Personal experience mainly. I have never been in contact with a FM guy making that money. I have rotated with several in the big cities as well as one in rural mid america working for the govt. I am sure many family docs do well for themselves but those who are making 300+ are probably more involved in business ventures (botox, venous ablations, etc). Overhead is big and patients don't pay much it is as simple as that. At least for private practice guys.

The private practice guys were ripping through patients all day nonstop while the other guys lived a much more relaxed lifestyle. Pros and Cons.
 
But wait guys, can someone put me at ease by saying that FM will always allow the business minded to open up shop? Or are we in such a bad situation that in 15-20 years we all actually have to be employed at mega corporate hospital systems?

Family docs work like animals and very few make a lot of money. Cheap paying patients and high overhead. Best bet for FM docs at least today is to go to underserved areas.

Nobody can guarantee anything over the next 20 years and any of us who went FM over the last 20 years already have one bad business decision to our credit.

The best best for the foreseeable future is Direct Primary Care. It's affordable enough for working class patients so you can set up shop almost anywhere. There are risks to DPC but they are far less than the risks of being an employee at a subsidized, loss leader clinic for big systems and patients that likely will replace you with a less expensive midlevel at some point. The worklife in DPC is as hard as any primary care or residency lifestyle during the startup phase but then becomes much more sane with smaller panels and far fewer visits per day. The pay, depending upon how you set up your business model, is competitive with any primary care or hospitalist jobs and many other specialities.
 
Nobody can guarantee anything over the next 20 years and any of us who went FM over the last 20 years already have one bad business decision to our credit.

The best best for the foreseeable future is Direct Primary Care. It's affordable enough for working class patients so you can set up shop almost anywhere. There are risks to DPC but they are far less than the risks of being an employee at a subsidized, loss leader clinic for big systems and patients that likely will replace you with a less expensive midlevel at some point. The worklife in DPC is as hard as any primary care or residency lifestyle during the startup phase but then becomes much more sane with smaller panels and far fewer visits per day. The pay, depending upon how you set up your business model, is competitive with any primary care or hospitalist jobs and many other specialities.

You think your choice to go into FM was a bad business decision? What would you have pursued instead?
 
FM could be a great specialty but as the family breadwinner over the last 20 years it's cost my family and me quite a bit financially compared to any number of subspecialties like GI. To make matters worse, early in my career I joined a group practice not too many years before private practices started dying right and left here and around the country.
 
FM could be a great specialty but as the family breadwinner over the last 20 years it's cost my family and me quite a bit financially compared to any number of subspecialties like GI. To make matters worse, early in my career I joined a group practice not too many years before private practices started dying right and left here and around the country.

Why is private practice dying around you? People on here are saying that PP is still very possible if you are business minded
 
Why is private practice dying around you? People on here are saying that PP is still very possible if you are business minded

Possible doesn't mean the best option... Between overhead, reduced insurance reimbursements, rising healthcare $$, lower top salaries and malpractice PP is more and more difficult. Even PP groups that have been around for a long time often sell their practices to hospital corporations for the reasons mentioned.
 
Possible doesn't mean the best option... Between overhead, reduced insurance reimbursements, rising healthcare $$, lower top salaries and malpractice PP is more and more difficult. Even PP groups that have been around for a long time often sell their practices to hospital corporations for the reasons mentioned.

Very true, but as mentioned above by several posters, it seems like lots of PP physicians are still able to make decent money, at least I hope that's the case!
 
I was family praticer before (now emergency) in France, and we see about 30-35 patients per day. Some GP in France saw > 40 patients per day !!
 
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