How Much Do Asian Dentists Make?

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enajmu

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I've seen plenty of income-related discussions, but my main concern is this: How will being Asian affect my income as a dentist?

I don't mean to offend anyone. I think that Asian dentists cater to a different population pool than dentists of a different race. I have never seen a specific Asian dentist income anywhere, so if anyone knows any that would be AWESOME! I honestly have no clue how much I will make if I don't know a specific Asian dentist's income (preferably in LA, especially with such high saturation of Asian dentists in there).

Again, I don't mean to offend. No negativity implied here. :thumbup:
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enajmu said:
I've seen plenty of income-related discussions, but my main concern is this: How will being Asian affect my income as a dentist?

I don't mean to offend anyone. I think that Asian dentists cater to a different population pool than dentists of a different race. I have never seen a specific Asian dentist income anywhere, so if anyone knows any that would be AWESOME! I honestly have no clue how much I will make if I don't know a specific Asian dentist's income (preferably in LA, especially with such high saturation of Asian dentists in there).

Again, I don't mean to offend. No negativity implied here. :thumbup:
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Uh-oh, here comes another wannabe So Cal dentist poster. Asians are generally perceived as intelligent people by the public. I think Asian dentists would succeed operating a low fee office catering to the lower to middle class, or even to the middle to upper middle class in certain neighborhoods. Would an Asian dentist do well catering to the high, high end clientele in Beverly Hills or Newport Beach? Probably not. I would highly, highly avoid mega-saturated areas in Little Saigon, Korea Town, Irvine/Tustin, and the San Gabriel Valley in general.
 
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enajmu said:
13740292] (preferably in LA, especially with such high saturation of Asian dentists in there) [/B]
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Do you say that because that's where you want to practice? Why do so many people want to practice in a super saturated area in a state that's going bankrupt? :nono:
 
kcumb12 said:
About the same as a white person
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I don't agree. Asians dentists don't make very much money in densely populated areas because there are other people there and if other people are there then what can do?
 
Where I'm from no one cares if a dentist or doctor is Asian. I cannot believe this is an actual concern. If anything they have an edge because I know some people assume they're more academically gifted than others... I think this was true in the past (due to hard work/ ethic) but today most of the Asian students lack the work ethic their parents had.
 
most of my patients at school think i'm half asian (i'm not but whatever) and have explicitly told me that they think asians make the best doctors. my response: "i'm whatever you want me to be" :cool:

as dumb as this thread may be there are definitely some unfortunate stereotypes projected by the public on us.
 
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I would have thought this was ridiculous until a couple of days ago when I lost my NERB perio patient because I'm not Asian. :lame:
 
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Shazzam said:
I don't agree. Asians dentists don't make very much money in densely populated areas because there are other people there and if other people are there then what can do?
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Which would be the same issue for anyone of any race....
 
enajmu said:
I've seen plenty of income-related discussions, but my main concern is this: How will being Asian affect my income as a dentist?

I don't mean to offend anyone. I think that Asian dentists cater to a different population pool than dentists of a different race. I have never seen a specific Asian dentist income anywhere, so if anyone knows any that would be AWESOME! I honestly have no clue how much I will make if I don't know a specific Asian dentist's income (preferably in LA, especially with such high saturation of Asian dentists in there).

Again, I don't mean to offend. No negativity implied here. :thumbup:
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Well it all depends if the patriarchy and institutional racism like you or not. I hear those things are real and scary. C'mon race troll you can do better.
 
I kind of understand why the OP asked this question. In most other healthcare professions you work for a large organization and are paid a set salary. A salary difference based on race is much less likely under these circumstances. However, in dentistry you are usually a small business owner. Unfortunately in our society many people still have their biases and may gravitate toward dentists of their own race or may choose a dentist based on racial perceptions. This can have a significant effect on dentists from minority groups.
 
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A retired Caucasian dentist I know sold his successful practice to a Vietnamese dentist. The Vietnamese dentist had a whole staff turnover and hired a bunch of Vietnamese assistants and office staff because he was more comfortable with people of his own culture. The patient pool were of mixed races. The Vietnamese dentist lost a lot of his non-Vietnamese patients because his office seemed to cater to only one demographic. The retired dentist told me to make sure I have a diverse group of staff.
 
yappy said:
Where I'm from no one cares if a dentist or doctor is Asian. I cannot believe this is an actual concern. If anything they have an edge because I know some people assume they're more academically gifted than others... I think this was true in the past (due to hard work/ ethic) but today most of the Asian students lack the work ethic their parents had.
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First generation immigrants work their asses off in blue collar jobs. Second generation work their asses off in school and become professionals. Third generation takes the comfortable lifestyle provided by their parents for granted and slack off or their parents instill hard-working values.
 
It seems like a nonsensical question, maybe even a troll question, because no-one wants to talk about race. But depending on where you practice, I think that race, or your immigrant status, could have an impact on how much money you make and how you want to approach your business. Here in the northwest, we tend to be very immigrant friendly and highly open to diversity. I'm guessing it would be similar in California, for the same reason- there has always been a lot of diversity there, a lot of immigration. I honestly don't think it's going to make a difference in your income on the west coast, though your day to day work might be affected. This is the general public, after all.

Some small towns in the Midwest are, and always have been, 100% white. Perfectly nice people with the best of intentions, of course. But many of them don't personally know anyone who isn't pretty much just like them, and that means that issues of race and culture are a "thing" for them. Whatever their attitudes about race, they will affect their decision about what dentist to see.

To a certain extent we are all like that- there's nothing wrong with being upfront about it.
 
I would imagine the income may also be affected depending on the Asian heritage of the dentist. A dentist with heritage from Israel or Iran may make a different amount than a dentist with heritage from China or Japan.
 
OP, you're asking two different questions. First, how would you fare as a dentist in SoCal? Answer is, probably not good. SoCal is extremely saturated and doesn't matter if you are Asian, black, white or purple, you're gonna make less money here than some place in the mid-west.

Second question deals with being Asian. This thread gives some very good perspectives on it:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=336821
 
I dont know how much Asians make
 
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enajmu said:
I've seen plenty of income-related discussions, but my main concern is this: How will being Asian affect my income as a dentist?

I don't mean to offend anyone. I think that Asian dentists cater to a different population pool than dentists of a different race. I have never seen a specific Asian dentist income anywhere, so if anyone knows any that would be AWESOME! I honestly have no clue how much I will make if I don't know a specific Asian dentist's income (preferably in LA, especially with such high saturation of Asian dentists in there).
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If your plan is to serve who I think you want to serve in OC and LA County...good luck!!! They typically have lots of money but paying deductible or copay or even anything for dental care is far below their preference for blowing that money at the casino or football. 99.9% of them absolutely refuses to pay anything and they will go office to office, cause there is a myriad of them, til they find someone to take zero money from them. Then you also gotta compete with the lowballer and the unlicensed. I knew someone who got all his composites done in San Gabriel valley for $20 each. There are offices in OC doing root canal for $200 and PFM for $300. There are dental assistant pulling teeth and fabricating immediate full denture in their garage for $300. You think you can compete with that? I couldn't and I refused to so I left for greener pasture.
 
I think the OP may be boxing himself into a corner thinking that an "Asian dentist" is slotted for a certain income slot. This is America 21st century; yeah, some racial concerns will always exist, but for the most part I think people don't care that much for the ethnicity/race of their dentist as long as service/quality is good. I work in a place where there are very few Asians (like myself) and mostly whites/blacks. I am treated very well by almost all of my patients and I never feel that my being Asian has anything to do with their opinion of me. So instead of wasting time and pondering about what Asian dentists make, focus more on the quality of your care and practicing in the right places.

And yes, Daurang is correct based on my own observations and discussions with many people in CA, and that's why I left that place as well. It's simply foolish to practice in that kind of environment and expect to do well financially.
 
Shunwei said:
And yes, Daurang is correct based on my own observations and discussions with many people in CA, and that's why I left that place as well. It's simply foolish to practice in that kind of environment and expect to do well financially.
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Unless you become a dental specialist in CA. If someone really wants to practice in CA, then become an OS, endodontist, or periodontist. There will not a shortage of GPs who would rather keep 50% of difficult wizzie extractions, RCT, and implant cases than refer them out for nothing. Here's the best part about become this type of traveling specialist: no personality or maketing whatsoever! You would be a hired gun to do the work on 1-2 days/month basis and receive a fat paycheck for your work on that day (it's not that easy to keep 50% overhead at your own private office). I would advise to stay away from becoming an orthodontist in this situation because it can be stressful to find a replacement to take over your cases when you leave. The other benefits of this situation is that you could schedule yourself for 2-3 working days a week, or string together 14 days in a row and take the rest of the month off for vacation and not need to worry if you still have a practice to return to, and still be ahead of the GPs in terms of salary.
 
ortho lurker said:
Unless you become a dental specialist in CA. If someone really wants to practice in CA, then become an OS, endodontist, or periodontist. There will not a shortage of GPs who would rather keep 50% of difficult wizzie extractions, RCT, and implant cases than refer them out for nothing. Here's the best part about become this type of traveling specialist: no personality or maketing whatsoever! You would be a hired gun to do the work on 1-2 days/month basis and receive a fat paycheck for your work on that day (it's not that easy to keep 50% overhead at your own private office). I would advise to stay away from becoming an orthodontist in this situation because it can be stressful to find a replacement to take over your cases when you leave.
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That's the beauty of being a dental specialist. Just travel to different GP offices and you don't even need to have your own office. You, however, can make a lot more at your own office if you know how run a business. A lot of GPs are still afraid of getting sued for doing the procedures that they didn't receive the proper training at their dental school; therefore, they hire the traveling specialists and collect 50% of what the specialists help produce for them.

ortho lurker said:
The other benefits of this situation is that you could schedule yourself for 2-3 working days a week, or string together 14 days in a row and take the rest of the month off for vacation and not need to worry if you still have a practice to return to, and still be ahead of the GPs in terms of salary.
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That's what I've done but instead of taking the rest of the month off, I work for a dental chain (10 days/month) when I am not at my own offices. Why do I have to work so hard? Because it's in my "Asian" blood.
 
ortho lurker said:
Unless you become a dental specialist in CA. If someone really wants to practice in CA, then become an OS, endodontist, or periodontist. There will not a shortage of GPs who would rather keep 50% of difficult wizzie extractions, RCT, and implant cases than refer them out for nothing. Here's the best part about become this type of traveling specialist: no personality or maketing whatsoever! You would be a hired gun to do the work on 1-2 days/month basis and receive a fat paycheck for your work on that day (it's not that easy to keep 50% overhead at your own private office). I would advise to stay away from becoming an orthodontist in this situation because it can be stressful to find a replacement to take over your cases when you leave. The other benefits of this situation is that you could schedule yourself for 2-3 working days a week, or string together 14 days in a row and take the rest of the month off for vacation and not need to worry if you still have a practice to return to, and still be ahead of the GPs in terms of salary.
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I forgot to add pedos to the list of viable traveling specialists in CA. If you are a pediatric dentist, bring your conscious sedation cocktails and papoose board with you and you are good to go! It would require a little more personality, however, because you would see more of a longer-term patient base compared to the one-and-done procedure specialties. Denti-Cal only covers minors now so pedo would be the one specialty that would take off like a rocket if you opened your own, but the only concern would be getting the rug pulled beneath you if Denti-Cal stops that coverage.
 
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ortho lurker said:
Denti-Cal only covers minors now so pedo would be the one specialty that would take off like a rocket if you opened your own, but the only concern would be getting the rug pulled beneath you if Denti-Cal stops that coverage.
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There's no need to worry because if Dentical stops, Obamacare will surely fill in the coverage gap. The federal government, unlike state government, can print unlimited money out of thin air with touch of the keyboard.
 
$5. Every service.


Seriously, what the heck.
 
$88.88 per hour :)

It makes sense to hire staff of different ethnicity no matter what your race is. It makes for a more relevant work place and can help your patients identify with your office, especially if you live in a diverse workplace.
 
ortho lurker said:
Unless you become a dental specialist in CA. If someone really wants to practice in CA, then become an OS, endodontist, or periodontist. There will not a shortage of GPs who would rather keep 50% of difficult wizzie extractions, RCT, and implant cases than refer them out for nothing. Here's the best part about become this type of traveling specialist: no personality or maketing whatsoever! You would be a hired gun to do the work on 1-2 days/month basis and receive a fat paycheck for your work on that day (it's not that easy to keep 50% overhead at your own private office). I would advise to stay away from becoming an orthodontist in this situation because it can be stressful to find a replacement to take over your cases when you leave. The other benefits of this situation is that you could schedule yourself for 2-3 working days a week, or string together 14 days in a row and take the rest of the month off for vacation and not need to worry if you still have a practice to return to, and still be ahead of the GPs in terms of salary.
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A lot of GPs in CA are being forced to become "Super Dentists" by doing pretty much everything on their own. I can only imagine this cuts into the specialists' portion of the pie. In addition, I know many are wary of getting specialists into their offices because when overhead is taken care of, very little if any actual profit is left for the GP, hence a cause for the Super dentist as well.

Personally, and from talking to some of my classmates and friends in CA, it'd be shooting oneself in the leg to practice there. While I am doing endos, bridges, dentures, and soon implants daily, many of my classmates are doing buccal pit fillings and class I's. So while specialists in CA might earn more than GPs, they are still limited in their earning and probably not doing better than GPs in my region.
 
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Shunwei said:
A lot of GPs in CA are being forced to become "Super Dentists" by doing pretty much everything on their own. I can only imagine this cuts into the specialists' portion of the pie. In addition, I know many are wary of getting specialists into their offices because when overhead is taken care of, very little if any actual profit is left for the GP, hence a cause for the Super dentist as well.
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It doesn't cost the GP anything to hire the specialists for his/her practice. The traveling specialists usually provide all the supplies and instruments (except for minor things like gloves, cotton rolls, lidocaine etc). Some specialists (myself included) even bring in their own assistants. The GP does nothing and collects 30-50% of what the specialists produce for the office. That's easy money for the GP....no headache in dealing with post op complications, no fear of getting sued for doing unfamiliar procedures, no need to buy expensive implant handpieces, ortho brackets/bands etc. The specialists benefit from this as well since they don't have to spend lots of money to set up their own office.

Most successful GPs I've known have 2-3 specialists working for them.
 
Costs them nothing? Even if you bring your own assistants, there is supplies, space, time, administrative costs, etc to the GP office. I have GP friends in CA who do everything themselves and avoid having specialists onboard because of what % the specialists demand and what the overhead to the GP will be. Maybe these people are doing it wrong or are not astute as your are, Tweed, but I heard it straight from them. Many say, for instance, if they get an endodontist onboard, then after all's said and done with subtraction of overhead, it's really just a wash for them.

I work in a group practice where we used to bring a periodontist here on a regular basis to place implants, but the guy has gotten to a point where he is demanding too much to come by. He brings his own assistants and supplies, but still we can't afford him because of his demands, and hence the owner dentist agreeing to support me for an implant CE soon. Not that I will be jumping right in to doing complex cases right away, but at least I will be alleviating our dependency. It's not always a mutually beneficial agreement.
 
Shunwei said:
I work in a group practice where we used to bring a periodontist here on a regular basis to place implants, but the guy has gotten to a point where he is demanding too much to come by. He brings his own assistants and supplies, but still we can't afford him because of his demands, and hence the owner dentist agreeing to support me for an implant CE soon. Not that I will be jumping right in to doing complex cases right away, but at least I will be alleviating our dependency. It's not always a mutually beneficial agreement.
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Aww, the good old days when all a stand-alone specialist office would need was to send a fruit basket to a GP to get referrals. Lol, nowadays specialists are invading GPs' turf. At least these "group practice/in-house whatever you call them" models circumvent potential state-board problems such as fee-splitting and kickbacks that occur between GP and specialty office behind closed doors.
 
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To show you how CRAZY the situation is in So Cal, here is an example of daily jobs/space share rental ads: http://thedentaltrader.com/showads.php This is in addition to other online listings such as thdentalshopper.com, craigslist.org, indeed.com, cda.org, harbordentalsociety.org, etc. As you can tell, GPs are desperate to make up for lost production due to the poor economy and saturation beyond comprehension. You can also tell that the odds favor the traveling specialists--I wouldn't even bother space renting starting up because it takes too much effort to recruit patients and other GPs would not refer to you if you are new and starting out of a GP office. If I were an aspiring specialist in pre-dental or dental school, I would also think twice about starting a stand-alone specialty office because as you can see, GPs do NOT refer out anymore, they even compete for cases with their in-house specialists now!!!
 
Shunwei said:
Costs them nothing? Even if you bring your own assistants, there is supplies, space, time, administrative costs, etc to the GP office. I have GP friends in CA who do everything themselves and avoid having specialists onboard because of what % the specialists demand and what the overhead to the GP will be. Maybe these people are doing it wrong or are not astute as your are, Tweed, but I heard it straight from them. Many say, for instance, if they get an endodontist onboard, then after all's said and done with subtraction of overhead, it's really just a wash for them.
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The GP pays the same amount of rent, utilities, staff salaries etc whether the traveling specialists come or not. Unlike hiring an associate GP, the owner GP doesn't have to pay the specialist the guaranteed per diem salary. If there is no procedure for the specialist to perform, the specialist stays home and the GP loses nothing.

My sister, who is a GP, has a 4-chair practice. She sees, on the average, 4-8 patients/day She works 4.5 days/week and she uses 2 chairs most of the time. Instead of wasting the office space, she lets the perio (my wife) and the ortho (me) use the other 2 chairs that she doesn't need. Well, I need all 4 chairs; therefore, I pick one Sunday a month and schedule all of my ortho patients for that day. The additional income my sister gains from in-house perio and ortho is almost enough to cover the entire office overhead. Whatever she produces from doing general dentistry is pretty much her take home income. My sister is not the only one who runs the office this way. All nine GP offices, that my wife travels to work as an in-house perio, earn their profits the same way.

Shunwei said:
I work in a group practice where we used to bring a periodontist here on a regular basis to place implants, but the guy has gotten to a point where he is demanding too much to come by. He brings his own assistants and supplies, but still we can't afford him because of his demands, and hence the owner dentist agreeing to support me for an implant CE soon. Not that I will be jumping right in to doing complex cases right away, but at least I will be alleviating our dependency. It's not always a mutually beneficial agreement.
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The periodontist has the supplies, the assistant, and a fully functional dental chair. What else does he need? It's the right thing that your boss lets him go. The reason many GPs get along very well with my wife is she is a very simple person. A person who knows how to hold the suction is good enough to be my wife's perio assistant.
 
KSDental said:
I kind of understand why the OP asked this question. In most other healthcare professions you work for a large organization and are paid a set salary. A salary difference based on race is much less likely under these circumstances. However, in dentistry you are usually a small business owner. Unfortunately in our society many people still have their biases and may gravitate toward dentists of their own race or may choose a dentist based on racial perceptions. This can have a significant effect on dentists from minority groups.
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This is not as uncommon as many here may think. Heck, I know people that choose dentists and doctors based on where they attended school. I know people that are religious and prefer LLU grads. I know people that never attended college, but are SoCal born and bred and follow USC football like a religion, and thus they only go to USC dentists. Same with UCLA.

So I can see how someone from Vietnam or China may feel more comfortable being able to talk in their native tongue with a Vietnamese or Chinese dentist. Just the culture differences alone could be enough for an Asian patient to seek out an Asian physician or dentist.
 
Tweed, whether the GP is paying the specialist a per diem is not the point of contentiion. The chair will be there, sure, but the GP has to allot the chair time, possibly assistants and supplies, on the days the specialist is here, in addition to providing the administrative support and accepting the liability risk of having the specialist in the house. All of this is time, space, and labor that should be factored into consideration. What would, for example, the GP get from this time/space in place of the specialist, I.e. opportunity cost? I am glad that your sister is doing well; I am just offering a different view on the issue and relating some things I have seen myself.

Now, I don't know if specialists in CA are invading GPs turf. Maybe they are by the cutthroat environment there, but I'd imagine that it is easier for a GP to do that since he can dabble in a wider variety of procedures and be selective about it. And i do know for a fact that many GPs there really do everything right down to sinus lifts. I am just glad I am not there to find out about this firsthand. I can only assume, however, that by the growing volumes of dentists emigrating out of the state, that CA is not that favorable of an environment. Voting by eir feet is the surest and most reliable form.
 
Shunwei said:
Now, I don't know if specialists in CA are invading GPs turf. Maybe they are by the cutthroat environment there, but I'd imagine that it is easier for a GP to do that since he can dabble in a wider variety of procedures and be selective about it.
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These are some of the job postings in the last 48 hours for specialists, chair rentals, and specialists-for-hire ads in So Cal on the dentaltrader.com site. If you are a new grad dental specialist out of residency and cannot at least find part-time work here, then there is something wrong with you.
 
Finding a part time job is not hard, most of these are for 2 days a month. Assuming a specialist wants full time, gainful employment, that I imagine would be a lot tougher (note also the specific language requirement in one of the ads). If we had stats that would show specialist salaries of CA vs other states, it'd be interesting.
 
Shunwei said:
Finding a part time job is not hard, most of these are for 2 days a month. Assuming a specialist wants full time, gainful employment, that I imagine would be a lot tougher (note also the specific language requirement in one of the ads). If we had stats that would show specialist salaries of CA vs other states, it'd be interesting.
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You missed the point, you find 5 jobs like these and you are up to 10 days a month. These are job posting in the last 2 days, imagine scouring through all the sites that I mentioned (dentalshopper, craigslist, indeed, cda, etc.) and you can gain days quickly. Again, as a specialist you do not need to work 4-5 days a week because you can pull in 4 digit salaries a day (or in the case of o.s. or endo, 5 digit salaries per day) right out of residency, you do not need to invest $ into a practice and wait for it to grow. No headaches of marketing or managing staff either.

Because you asked about salary, here are some job listings on craiglist:

Multi-specialty office in Arcadia looking for a travelling orthodontist to come once or twice a month to gradually take over an existing and ever-growing orthodontic practice. Daily rate starting at $1200 per day.

We are looking for an oral surgeon.

Private practice . PPO / Cash. No HMO.

Camarillo, Calif. Ventura County, next to Thousand Oaks.

One full day a month preferably Friday 9-6.
•Location: Camarillo
•Compensation: 50% adjusted production

There are WAYY more job listings on craigslist that don't list the compensation that it would fill 10 pages on this forum, and you have to believe me that 50% production in oral surgery will be a nice chunk of change. :) I think this post is relevant to the OP because several of the ads that I scoured asked for an Asian-speaking dentist because the dental office is located in an Asian-populated community and it would provide the Asian dentist a nice salary in the area where he/she would like to practice.
 
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I didn't miss your point. But are you sure that you can find 6-7 of these jobs within an acceptable travel radius and be sure that you can be kept busy as well or get paid well? You don't need to convince me, I have no stake in this debate. All I know is that I spoke to quite a few CA GPs and specialists and very few are satisfied with their situation. If I were a specialist, I sure would be tired of running around like that, but that's just me.

The only specialty that I am convinced that will do well regardless of location is OS, and they deserve it for their extended education the liability they take, etc. If done well, sure that can gross you 5 digits per day. Endo? I am not so sure if its that much. Ortho? From my ortho friends new grads are lucky to start at 1k/day in a part time gig in CA; here in TX there are orthos looking for jobs now that the Medicaid bubble has burst.. Pedo is hot at the moment, probably better than ortho now but that can turn on an insurance or federal regulation dime. Pros to me is a waste of time unless its done purely for the love of it.

Like I said, I am just happy that I am not there in CA myself. My current job is only a stepping stone to my eventual ownership, but it gives me fantastic experience and pays well. Heck, as a new grad GP here, my team and I produce 5-6k per day and I get 30% of that, and I work about 20 days a month. From talking to my specialist friends in CA I probably earn more than many of them, especially since there is no income tax here in TX.
 
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Shunwei! Your a boss what's your secret. Do you work for a corporate office?
 
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