How much do family doctors actually earn? Right after residency?

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That is a great offer. I am interesting how you will get paid after guarantee, and how many hours you are expected to work per day?
The question you must ask with any job offer - what's the catch? If a contract seems to good to be true, its because it is.

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The question you must ask with any job offer - what's the catch? If a contract seems to good to be true, its because it is.

I have a friend who landed a 200k gig +25k signing bonus with an extra 20k going to loan repayment right out of residency
M-F 9-5 outpatient. This was five years ago. No catches. Just nabbed a good offer.

Also, it was in the suburbs of a major city before anyone asks.

Sometimes you get lucky.
 
That is a great offer. I am interesting how you will get paid after guarantee, and how many hours you are expected to work per day?

Salary minimums for 18 months. After that based on Combo of RVU's, patient satisfaction, and quality metrics. 8-5. Not sure about call situation.

190 is in a small city, 230 is in middle of nowhere. Both in Midwest.
 
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190,000 guaranteed for the first year with 20,000 sign-on. 10,000/yr retention bonus for a number of years. Speaking with people, can expect around 200,000 yearly. This is for a small city within 1-1.5hr from major east coast metropolitan areas.
 
This past year Kaiser in Southern California was giving graduates from $220k with $30k sign on bonus. Not bad...I guess it has the specialists over at Kaiser pretty upset.
 
Another round of offers this time by generic head hunter email

"hospitals, multi specialty groups, and health centers in Arkansas, Illinois, Kentucky, Indiana, and Michigan" looking for various types of primary care positions such as "hospitalist, outpatient only, traditional, and some that include obstetrics"

-200k-260k

Light on the details the email is.
 
This past year Kaiser in Southern California was giving graduates from $220k with $30k sign on bonus. Not bad...I guess it has the specialists over at Kaiser pretty upset.
It may actually be higher. I know IM primary care gets $250k with additional bonuses in SoCal Kaiser, so I'm sure FM PCP isn't far off.

Specialists can go cry home to Mama, cuz they dug themselves this hole by saturating their own specialties. Supply and demand is a b**** aint it?
 
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I'm a PGY-1, and I am already in the process of signing a contract for 190K with 1K/mo stipend through residency and 36K sign on bonus. I'm sure I could look around for something even better perhaps with loan repayment, but I like the health system and want to stay in the area. The 190K is also just the guaranteed minimum, you can earn more. It is outpatient only, no OB.
 
It may actually be higher. I know IM primary care gets $250k with additional bonuses in SoCal Kaiser, so I'm sure FM PCP isn't far off.

Specialists can go cry home to Mama, cuz they dug themselves this hole by saturating their own specialties. Supply and demand is a b**** aint it?
I have a friend in the SoCal area who is finishing FM residency this year and she said she was getting emails from Kaiser SoCal 225k with a 150k (or 175 I can't remember) sign on bonus. NorCal Kaiser is 275k starting with 125k bonus
 
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This is great money for FM... what's the catch...?
 
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I'm in the Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania. I was offered 190,000 for year 1. After that it is based on the organization's primary care reimbursement policy. I was offered a 20,000 sign on bonus within 45 days of signing. I also was offered a retention bonus of 10,000 per year for up to 5 years for staying with the network. My first year salary will be 220,000. Thereafter, a close friend within the organization said I'll hang close to 190,000-200,000 a year. The organization also does a productivity bonus which is up to 12,500 a year. There's another bonus out there, I believe as well, when I spoke with my practice lead.
 
Damn FM be ballin

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This is great money for FM... what's the catch...?
There is no catch. It's just that hospital systems are getting wise to the revelation that you must have a strong referral base in order to keep your organization from succumbing to low reveneue generation or local/regional competition. Kaiser is always on the forefront of these epiphanies and is likely why they're in a PCP shopping spree right now. Other organizations will catch on.

To be honest, if you're a primary care doc, you should not be looking at any offers under 200-220k unless you're in a hugely saturated market. Anything under 1st tier city should be offering north of 200k with a slew of other bonus incentives.
 
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There is no catch. It's just that hospital systems are getting wise to the revelation that you must have a strong referral base in order to keep your organization from succumbing to low reveneue generation or local/regional competition. Kaiser is always on the forefront of these epiphanies and is likely why they're in a PCP shopping spree right now. Other organizations will catch on.

To be honest, if you're a primary care doc, you should not be looking at any offers under 200-220k unless you're in a hugely saturated market. Anything under 1st tier city should be offering north of 200k with a slew of other bonus incentives.
Its funny you should say this. In my area there are 2 large hospital systems, pretty fierce competitors. One of them has invested heavily in primary care, we're talking 100+ FM/IM outpatient docs across 2 counties. Their profit margin last year was just north of 15%.

The other one hasn't increased their PCP numbers in 5 years, a total of maybe 50 docs. Their profit margin is about 3%. Word is their President is actually trying to decrease PCP numbers as he thinks we're a waste of money. After all, ortho is what really brings in the money...
 
The question you must ask with any job offer - what's the catch? If a contract seems to good to be true, its because it is.
A lot of the time these jobs are within hospital systems. You don't need to make up for your individual cost, as the hospital system is essentially using you as a referral base for their other services and specialists. Owning the PCPs allows them to capture everything upstream, so they're willing to pay a premium.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to the explanation lol.
 
I'm a PGY-1, and I am already in the process of signing a contract for 190K with 1K/mo stipend through residency and 36K sign on bonus. I'm sure I could look around for something even better perhaps with loan repayment, but I like the health system and want to stay in the area. The 190K is also just the guaranteed minimum, you can earn more. It is outpatient only, no OB.

How did you go about looking for jobs/negotiating a contract as a pgy1? Did you already have contacts in the area or were people just receptive to you reaching out? I am also a pgy1 and am interested in starting the process but wasn't sure how that would be received.
 
Its funny you should say this. In my area there are 2 large hospital systems, pretty fierce competitors. One of them has invested heavily in primary care, we're talking 100+ FM/IM outpatient docs across 2 counties. Their profit margin last year was just north of 15%.

The other one hasn't increased their PCP numbers in 5 years, a total of maybe 50 docs. Their profit margin is about 3%. Word is their President is actually trying to decrease PCP numbers as he thinks we're a waste of money. After all, ortho is what really brings in the money...
Yeah... I don't know what these administrators are thinking by not rapidly expanding their primary care base. Ortho MAKES the money, but primary care BRINGS IN the money. It's just a matter of time before it's universally accepted.
 
Yeah... I don't know what these administrators are thinking by not rapidly expanding their primary care base. Ortho MAKES the money, but primary care BRINGS IN the money. It's just a matter of time before it's universally accepted.

How true this is: In the urgent care I'm working in right now I do a minimum of 60-80 ortho referrals a week. About 40 general surgery. 10 urology.
 
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Its funny you should say this. In my area there are 2 large hospital systems, pretty fierce competitors. One of them has invested heavily in primary care, we're talking 100+ FM/IM outpatient docs across 2 counties. Their profit margin last year was just north of 15%.

The other one hasn't increased their PCP numbers in 5 years, a total of maybe 50 docs. Their profit margin is about 3%. Word is their President is actually trying to decrease PCP numbers as he thinks we're a waste of money. After all, ortho is what really brings in the money...
I don't know if the numbers match up, but are you in Pennsylvania? Because if you are, I have a big idea of where you might be, LOL. This sounds like my training institution and the institution I'll be working for.
 
I don't know if the numbers match up, but are you in Pennsylvania? Because if you are, I have a big idea of where you might be, LOL. This sounds like my training institution and the institution I'll be working for.
Nope, I'm down in SC but its a similar setup - one hospital system has the local teaching place (and 2 regular hospitals), the other has just 1 non-teaching hospital.
 
Yeah... I don't know what these administrators are thinking by not rapidly expanding their primary care base. Ortho MAKES the money, but primary care BRINGS IN the money. It's just a matter of time before it's universally accepted.
The President of that hospital system is apparently not well thought of. One of the lobbyists for the state medical society is gym buddies with the guy and the lawyer who helped me set up my office does a lot of work with all the hospitals in town - both have said that the guy just isn't that bright.
 
A lot of the time these jobs are within hospital systems. You don't need to make up for your individual cost, as the hospital system is essentially using you as a referral base for their other services and specialists. Owning the PCPs allows them to capture everything upstream, so they're willing to pay a premium.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to the explanation lol.
There's still a catch though. It can come in several forms. My family doctor, an old friend from residency, has patients scheduled every 10 minutes. He's expected to see between 30-35 patients in an 8 hour day. Since the hospital owns him, he has no control over his schedule.

That same hospital recently fired a neurologist for sending all of his MRIs to a private imaging center (that's not why they said they fired him, because of Stark Law, but I believe him).

I got a stern talking to at my last job with a hospital system for sending all OB/GYN patients to outside doctors because I didn't trust the one in-house group the hospital had.

There are well paying hospital jobs if you don't mind a) seeing lots of patients in a day b) having limited options for referrals/labs/imaging and (most importantly to me) c) having little/no control over your schedule or the office in general.
 
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So with these numbers that I'm seeing, do the offers include malpractice insurance, health care plan for family, and contribution to a retirement plan?
 
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So with these numbers that I'm seeing, do the offers include malpractice insurance, health care plan for family, and contribution to a retirement plan?


If you work for a hospital system they usually do. However, be aware that sometimes they will make a 230K/year offer (example) but it will include malpractice, vacation pay, bonus etc. So you are not really getting 230K. As a general rule 180 to 200K is not bad for FM in most places. If you go rural then you will make more.

On a side note: If you work at nights (urgent care etc) and work on building your DPC you will make more. But it will be HARD at first.

In my opinion a few years of pain upfront may be worth the constant pain of working for the man for 10+ years till your sick of it because it's gets harder once you are established and get a family etc. Even you don't get a family you will still get comfortable. It's not good to get too comfortable as a business man.
 
If you work for a hospital system they usually do. However, be aware that sometimes they will make a 230K/year offer (example) but it will include malpractice, vacation pay, bonus etc. So you are not really getting 230K. As a general rule 180 to 200K is not bad for FM in most places. If you go rural then you will make more.

On a side note: If you work at nights (urgent care etc) and work on building your DPC you will make more. But it will be HARD at first.

In my opinion a few years of pain upfront may be worth the constant pain of working for the man for 10+ years till your sick of it because it's gets harder once you are established and get a family etc. Even you don't get a family you will still get comfortable. It's not good to get too comfortable as a business man.

So would you consider 190-200k in gross with covered malpractice, free health insurance, retirement contribution, and 30 paid vacation days to be a competitive offer in today's environment?
 
Finally, do you guys know the moonlight rate for board certified FP? Do these gigs have malpractice covered? If not, what's the expected net for a 8-12 hrs shift?
 
So would you consider 190-200k in gross with covered malpractice, free health insurance, retirement contribution, and 30 paid vacation days to be a competitive offer in today's environment?
Depending on where you are and what your daily patient load is... maybe
 
Depending on where you are and what your daily patient load is... maybe

Well, that's my expected gross if I go into FP and stay with the military after my HPSP obligations. I personally would like to make the military a career. However, there's a lot of sacrifices that will be made on my family. Nevertheless, my wife and boys don't mind me serving this group of patients. If I stay in the military, I just want to make sure that I'm being fairly compensated for my service. Otherwise, I would just work for the VA. Speaking of the VA, do you know the expected FP salary and benefits for a FP vet with at least four years of experience?
 
I spoke with a VERY rural FQHC in NE Washington state offering $200k base for F/T family physician without OB, 1/7 phone call only, outpatient only. If interested could also serve as backup to ER and hospitalist PAs and NPs q5d or something like that for an extra $85k/yr.
And they were apologizing for this salary as "kinda low". Hmmm, I thought the $140k for a very nice but less rural NE NC site was low.

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I spoke with a VERY rural FQHC in NE Washington state offering $200k base for F/T family physician without OB, 1/7 phone call only, outpatient only. If interested could also serve as backup to ER and hospitalist PAs and NPs q5d or something like that for an extra $85k/yr.
And they were apologizing for this salary as "kinda low". Hmmm, I thought the $140k for a very nice but less rural NE NC site was low.
My first job out had pay around there in Greenville, which was quite low, but was a great environment so it was worth it. As a general rule, I would not accept less than 150k starting on the East Coast, and that had better have good productivity and other perks.
 
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Well, that's my expected gross if I go into FP and stay with the military after my HPSP obligations. I personally would like to make the military a career. However, there's a lot of sacrifices that will be made on my family. Nevertheless, my wife and boys don't mind me serving this group of patients. If I stay in the military, I just want to make sure that I'm being fairly compensated for my service. Otherwise, I would just work for the VA. Speaking of the VA, do you know the expected FP salary and benefits for a FP vet with at least four years of experience?
I don't know much about the VA, my user name is a leftover from my undergrad days in Virginia.
 
So would you consider 190-200k in gross with covered malpractice, free health insurance, retirement contribution, and 30 paid vacation days to be a competitive offer in today's environment?


Depends on how many patient a day, call schedule, type of practice, type of malpractice coverage, nothing is free (clarify), how much retirement contribution, and do they count cme as part of your paid vacation?
 
Well, that's my expected gross if I go into FP and stay with the military after my HPSP obligations. I personally would like to make the military a career. However, there's a lot of sacrifices that will be made on my family. Nevertheless, my wife and boys don't mind me serving this group of patients. If I stay in the military, I just want to make sure that I'm being fairly compensated for my service. Otherwise, I would just work for the VA. Speaking of the VA, do you know the expected FP salary and benefits for a FP vet with at least four years of experience?


Last I saw with VA/military they paid like 120000 to 150000. I guess I'm out of date with military VA pay. But I do know that retirement pay will be about 60% of max gross pluss whatever you put away in a military type 401K. So after about 20 years it's not bad retirement for life.
 
Last I saw with VA/military they paid like 120000 to 150000. I guess I'm out of date with military VA pay. But I do know that retirement pay will be about 60% of max gross pluss whatever you put away in a military type 401K. So after about 20 years it's not bad retirement for life.

Nobody knows the salary compensation for the VA. However my quoted gross as a military FP is based on actual data with a retirement of $50-60k after 20 yrs. Due to my prior service years, I will by an O-4 with 12 yrs time by service after my HPSP obligations. I'm going to try to talk to one of my mentors who's a retired COL and works at Madigan. I will share my findings with folks around here since a lot of nontrads who take HPSP are very interested in FP.
 
That sounds amazing. Is there an increase in hourly rate for weekends, nights, or major holiday periods like Xmas and New Year?
How is that amazing? I get $100/hr moonlighting in residency and was at $60/hr as a PA in the ED. Same company pays the docs $170-200/hr for ED coverage and still can't keep docs.

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How is that amazing? I get $100/hr moonlighting in residency and was at $60/hr as a PA in the ED. Same company pays the docs $170-200/hr for ED coverage and still can't keep docs.

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Sorry, but I come from really humble background. A $100/hr take home sounds great for me.
 
I come from a humble background also but I've been working for 25 years and my frame of reference is different after having a well-paying job for the past 15 lol.

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Last I saw with VA/military they paid like 120000 to 150000. I guess I'm out of date with military VA pay. But I do know that retirement pay will be about 60% of max gross pluss whatever you put away in a military type 401K. So after about 20 years it's not bad retirement for life.
Most people I know went to the VA for the benefits. 2% salary in retirement/year of employment, federal health insurance, stuff like that.
 
How is that amazing? I get $100/hr moonlighting in residency and was at $60/hr as a PA in the ED. Same company pays the docs $170-200/hr for ED coverage and still can't keep docs.

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Yeah but most of us aren't doing ED moonlighting.

$100 an hour isn't too bad. I end up netting like $1200 after a weekend of 8 hour days.
 
Oh it's fine, but hardly amazing.

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How is that amazing? I get $100/hr moonlighting in residency and was at $60/hr as a PA in the ED. Same company pays the docs $170-200/hr for ED coverage and still can't keep docs.

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It's not amazing. 200/hr x 40 x lets say 46 wks = 368,000. That is very good.
 
Nobody knows the salary compensation for the VA. However my quoted gross as a military FP is based on actual data with a retirement of $50-60k after 20 yrs. Due to my prior service years, I will by an O-4 with 12 yrs time by service after my HPSP obligations. I'm going to try to talk to one of my mentors who's a retired COL and works at Madigan. I will share my findings with folks around here since a lot of nontrads who take HPSP are very interested in FP.

50 to 60 K + whatever you put away + social when you get there. Not bad not great. One advantage to VA is that the docs don't really get sued.
 
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