How much do family doctors actually earn? Right after residency?

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Unfortunately money, not knowledge, is associated with prestige. Someone who cash cows one procedure all day every day gets more respect than the person who is constantly reading and trying to master new things. I'm slightly disappointed that I'll have to give up some respect by pursuing family medicine, but being the old school Doctor that can do a little bit of everything and having time for my kids is greatly more satisfying. Regardless of what people choose, I just hope they'll choose it for the right reasons. We can all remember something that used to matter and that is now irrelevant. I can't think of anything sadder than someone sitting on top of a pile of money all alone only to realize no one is clapping.


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Unfortunately money, not knowledge, is associated with prestige. Someone who cash cows one procedure all day every day gets more respect than the person who is constantly reading and trying to master new things. I'm slightly disappointed that I'll have to give up some respect by pursuing family medicine, but being the old school Doctor that can do a little bit of everything and having time for my kids is greatly more satisfying. Regardless of what people choose, I just hope they'll choose it for the right reasons. We can all remember something that used to matter and that is now irrelevant. I can't think of anything sadder than someone sitting on top of a pile of money all alone only to realize no one is clapping.


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Some things to remember....

Prestige does NOT = Respect.

The word "prestige" originally referred to an illusion, like a magic trick. And that is basically what it is - there is the illusion that more lucrative specialties are more prestigious.

Respect is earned. Good doctors gain respect because of their manner with patients and their competence.
 
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Considering that roughly half of FM spots went to independent applicants that largely weren't competitive for much else (largely FMGs/IMGs- not saying all, but many), and that even the most thrilled of specialties are in the 50s so far as "would do again," and that, historically, FM was even more IA heavy- I could see 50% or more of the people in FM preferring to have not been there in the first place. It's a fine specialty for people that want to be in it, but due to the competitive nature of the match, there have simply been a lot of people that end up in FM because it's the one place they've got a solid shot at care of scores or whatever.

Perhaps part of that is because of the match process putting emphasis on test scores rather than who the person truly is and what they truly enjoy. The other part has to do with debt and salaries. I don't know anyone who likes to be 250k in debt and making one of the lowest salaries in medicine.

I agree that about 1/2 of FM residents are there because they have to be there and not by choice but I feel that FM is a good specialty it's just devalued at this time. Perhaps that will change in the future.
 
Unfortunately money, not knowledge, is associated with prestige. Someone who cash cows one procedure all day every day gets more respect than the person who is constantly reading and trying to master new things. I'm slightly disappointed that I'll have to give up some respect by pursuing family medicine, but being the old school Doctor that can do a little bit of everything and having time for my kids is greatly more satisfying. Regardless of what people choose, I just hope they'll choose it for the right reasons. We can all remember something that used to matter and that is now irrelevant. I can't think of anything sadder than someone sitting on top of a pile of money all alone only to realize no one is clapping.


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Rather interesting --- I feel the same way --- when making my choice, I took note of things during my 3rd year clerkships --- IM was rounding on the weekends and no outpatient IM was really emphasized -- I actually had one of my IM attendings tell us not to sacrifice our family on the altar of medicine -- he lost his marriage and his family to medicine and was a very sad individual who worked pretty much all the time -- he treated the students/residents like family and we were his social contacts -- to the point that he would lecture us on art, history, food, music stating that he didn't want us to be one dimensional in medicine only.

My attending surgeon was divorced and estranged from his son; We also had some surgeons come to give lectures during second year and they flat out stated that they knew their grandkids better than their children.

During my ER rotation, I noticed that with the exception of the occasional trauma/MI, I was doing family medicine at 3AM;

For me, my family was with me before I went to medical school and will be with me long after I'm done practicing medicine --- it was really a no brainer. The first patient I ever pronounced was the Uncle-that-everyone-wanted -- he passed surrounded by his surviving children -- no one from work was there, they didn't bring in any certificates, trophies, whatever ---

I've also been told that a very famous surgeon passed -- his funeral was attended by his immediate surgical underlings/residents -- no one else, even family members went, because he was such a driven jerkweed who never had time for them.

If that's what you want, go for it ---

So when I'm in a social situation and people find out what I do and ask the inevitable question," What's your specialty?" -- when I respond "Family Medicine" and get the "Oh" and quick change of the topic of conversation, I just let it pass....

And then there's this --- Just as I was typing this, my MA came into my office asking to put a patient on the schedule. Had been seen previously for a physical and BMI of 50+ -- very pleasant patient ---- the entire crux of it all --- they returned having lost 18 pounds, started a daily exercise plan that's getting more active, started eating healthier and just wanted to thank me and let me know that my words hadn't fallen on deaf ears and now their whole family was eating healthier and getting more active -- the patient actually said that they wanted me to know that my efforts hadn't been wasted and it was impacting their family and their social group.....

And that, my friends, makes all the daily BS worth it....
 
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Considering that roughly half of FM spots went to independent applicants that largely weren't competitive for much else (largely FMGs/IMGs- not saying all, but many), and that even the most thrilled of specialties are in the 50s so far as "would do again," and that, historically, FM was even more IA heavy- I could see 50% or more of the people in FM preferring to have not been there in the first place. It's a fine specialty for people that want to be in it, but due to the competitive nature of the match, there have simply been a lot of people that end up in FM because it's the one place they've got a solid shot at care of scores or whatever.

Everytime I look at those surveys I think about the people that say, "Oh well if I don't match into what I want I'll just do FM". Again, no recipe for happiness.

Everytime I question the wisdom of pursuing FM when people tell me I "could" easily go after something "better", I think about how I would feel coming home everyday from that "better" field vs. FM. I think yeah, I guess it would be OK, but it wouldn't be like coming home from FM. Go for what you genuinely see yourself being reasonably happy doing everyday.

...Respect is earned. Good doctors gain respect because of their manner with patients and their competence.

This. The best physicians that I know and that all my attendings and preceptors point out are the best because of how they care deeply about their patients and they care about what they do. They aren't the best because of their field of practice.

You can pretty easily see the people who care over the people who don't. They spend that extra time asking the patient what's wrong, explaining a condition or treatment options, comforting patients when necessary. They spend that extra time with one more layer of suture to make sure they leave a stable and clean close. They spend that extra time looking at the EKG and analyzing why their initial assessment might be wrong. They spend that extra time looking over that colonic mucosa, not so they cover that magical 6 min requirement, but so they do right by their patient.
 
Everytime I look at those surveys I think about the people that say, "Oh well if I don't match into what I want I'll just do FM". Again, no recipe for happiness.

Everytime I question the wisdom of pursuing FM when people tell me I "could" easily go after something "better", I think about how I would feel coming home everyday from that "better" field vs. FM. I think yeah, I guess it would be OK, but it wouldn't be like coming home from FM. Go for what you genuinely see yourself being reasonably happy doing everyday.



This. The best physicians that I know and that all my attendings and preceptors point out are the best because of how they care deeply about their patients and they care about what they do. They aren't the best because of their field of practice.

You can pretty easily see the people who care over the people who don't. They spend that extra time asking the patient what's wrong, explaining a condition or treatment options, comforting patients when necessary. They spend that extra time with one more layer of suture to make sure they leave a stable and clean close. They spend that extra time looking at the EKG and analyzing why their initial assessment might be wrong. They spend that extra time looking over that colonic mucosa, not so they cover that magical 6 min requirement, but so they do right by their patient.

How many times are you seeing a FM do a colonoscopy?
You must be located along the western part of the country.
I think some examples are valid, but I doubt even a FM physician who could not care less about what he/she does would improperly close a wound, but I guess there are plenty out there that would. I definitely take the extra time to explain options and my thoughts, and considerations if things do not work as expected, etc. with close follow-up and precautions. You don't have to be the best to be considered the best by your patients.

I get what you are saying, but it points to Eric's example of being a medical student who has an idealistic view of things. You have to be able to properly manage and triage effectively and efficiently patient issues and concerns within 15-20 mins, sometimes less. Especially if you are seeing a load of 8-10 in 3hrs.

PCMH = bane of my existence.
So is Medicaid. I refer a patient to a specialist and I have to attain authorization for what the specialist wants or already did. How does that make any sense? Luckily, my future practice will not be accepting Medicaid.

I also can't wait to finish residency, so I can be done with the dud MAs/LPNs I've been working with the past 2-3 months. A wonderful staff will make your life in clinic so much easier. The terrible ones make you want to pull your hair out. I had "trained" a few but unfortunately one left to pursue her RN and the other got shifted out to a different corner. I get 2 new ones, one is decent and the other is horrible. I just tell myself "few more months..." To try to move on. I still take the time for my patients and they like me (even the ones I see for acute purposes that aren't mine) but it really takes a joint effort to make things work well.
 
Unfortunately money, not knowledge, is associated with prestige. Someone who cash cows one procedure all day every day gets more respect than the person who is constantly reading and trying to master new things. I'm slightly disappointed that I'll have to give up some respect by pursuing family medicine, but being the old school Doctor that can do a little bit of everything and having time for my kids is greatly more satisfying. Regardless of what people choose, I just hope they'll choose it for the right reasons. We can all remember something that used to matter and that is now irrelevant. I can't think of anything sadder than someone sitting on top of a pile of money all alone only to realize no one is clapping.


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Respect from whom? The patient or the other doc
Doesn't tell me why you're so dissatisfied with the profession you chose.


I think I've explained that in detail in many other posts.

In general for medicine: MOC, useless exams, Academics know nothings trying to control docs in real practices. General population being able to sue whenever they want for whatever they want.

In FP: lowest paid specialty reduced to paperwork and putting up with sub-standard NP and PAs. Low level of respect from every other profession. Reduced scope of practice. Patient not doing much of what you ask them (but I guess that one could be in the general medicine part).

So it's not just FM. But in other specialties at least you get paid double.
 
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Rather interesting --- I feel the same way --- when making my choice, I took note of things during my 3rd year clerkships --- IM was rounding on the weekends and no outpatient IM was really emphasized -- I actually had one of my IM attendings tell us not to sacrifice our family on the altar of medicine -- he lost his marriage and his family to medicine and was a very sad individual who worked pretty much all the time -- he treated the students/residents like family and we were his social contacts -- to the point that he would lecture us on art, history, food, music stating that he didn't want us to be one dimensional in medicine only.

My attending surgeon was divorced and estranged from his son; We also had some surgeons come to give lectures during second year and they flat out stated that they knew their grandkids better than their children.

During my ER rotation, I noticed that with the exception of the occasional trauma/MI, I was doing family medicine at 3AM;

For me, my family was with me before I went to medical school and will be with me long after I'm done practicing medicine --- it was really a no brainer. The first patient I ever pronounced was the Uncle-that-everyone-wanted -- he passed surrounded by his surviving children -- no one from work was there, they didn't bring in any certificates, trophies, whatever ---

I've also been told that a very famous surgeon passed -- his funeral was attended by his immediate surgical underlings/residents -- no one else, even family members went, because he was such a driven jerkweed who never had time for them.

If that's what you want, go for it ---

So when I'm in a social situation and people find out what I do and ask the inevitable question," What's your specialty?" -- when I respond "Family Medicine" and get the "Oh" and quick change of the topic of conversation, I just let it pass....

And then there's this --- Just as I was typing this, my MA came into my office asking to put a patient on the schedule. Had been seen previously for a physical and BMI of 50+ -- very pleasant patient ---- the entire crux of it all --- they returned having lost 18 pounds, started a daily exercise plan that's getting more active, started eating healthier and just wanted to thank me and let me know that my words hadn't fallen on deaf ears and now their whole family was eating healthier and getting more active -- the patient actually said that they wanted me to know that my efforts hadn't been wasted and it was impacting their family and their social group.....

And that, my friends, makes all the daily BS worth it....

You just described the basic issue in medicine. There are many surgeons like that but there are many FP's like that. Many are working 70 hour weeks with about a third doing paperwork.

Medicine in general has a serious problem that needs to change.
 
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You just described the basic issue in medicine. There are many surgeons like that but there are many FP's like that. Many are working 70 hour weeks with about a third doing paperwork.

Medicine in general has a serious problem that needs to change.

there was an interesting discussion at a hospital where I was on staff at one time very, very early in my career (which has not been all that long as of now) --- one of the older (both chronologically and practice wise) physicians on staff had a serious issue with EMR -- the norm had been dictation/written orders/charts/notes -- now we were being asked to use EMR -- since I type 80 words a minute and written notes were on the way out when I entered medical school, I had no problem with it.....

This older physician basically stated,"We are not clerks. I am a doctor, not a data entry clerk. This is a job for someone who gets paid $10/hr".....

A lot of time is spent doing defensive paperwork so we can justify billing.
 
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How many times are you seeing a FM do a colonoscopy?
You must be located along the western part of the country.
I think some examples are valid, but I doubt even a FM physician who could not care less about what he/she does would improperly close a wound, but I guess there are plenty out there that would. I definitely take the extra time to explain options and my thoughts, and considerations if things do not work as expected, etc. with close follow-up and precautions. You don't have to be the best to be considered the best by your patients.

I get what you are saying, but it points to Eric's example of being a medical student who has an idealistic view of things. You have to be able to properly manage and triage effectively and efficiently patient issues and concerns within 15-20 mins, sometimes less. Especially if you are seeing a load of 8-10 in 3hrs.

PCMH = bane of my existence.
So is Medicaid. I refer a patient to a specialist and I have to attain authorization for what the specialist wants or already did. How does that make any sense? Luckily, my future practice will not be accepting Medicaid.

I also can't wait to finish residency, so I can be done with the dud MAs/LPNs I've been working with the past 2-3 months. A wonderful staff will make your life in clinic so much easier. The terrible ones make you want to pull your hair out. I had "trained" a few but unfortunately one left to pursue her RN and the other got shifted out to a different corner. I get 2 new ones, one is decent and the other is horrible. I just tell myself "few more months..." To try to move on. I still take the time for my patients and they like me (even the ones I see for acute purposes that aren't mine) but it really takes a joint effort to make things work well.

Yeah, my point was that you could be respected as a physician and great regardless of your field. The examples I gave were of Cardiologists, Gastroenterologists, Surgeons, OB/Gyns, and FM docs. I wasn't speaking about FM in general, just good doctors in general (hence my point that they exist in any field).

You've apparently not run into enough terrible doctors. I have in both personal experiences, experiences of family members (many of whom are physicians themselves), friends, and patients that were given bad information by irresponsible doctors.

I've seen some doctors do very little for their patients in some instances, and I've watched others cut corners when just a little more time would make a significant difference and would unfortunately prevent some complications (major and minor) that ultimately occurred.

And by closure I meant care when it comes to closure of an interior layer or organ (e.g. peritoneum, uterus, etc.). All docs close the outside well, but others don't necessarily close the inside effectively to minimize adhesions or aim for better structural stability. I've even watched a surgery resident complain when an actually skilled surgeon spent extra time carefully closing a peritoneum after a long surgery. The worst part is when doctors make excuses and don't even question their own actions. I know the fear of lawsuit is real, but even when they're talking to other physicians it happens.

Also, with regards to idealism, I guess it really depends on how realistic you are. I'm not particularly new to the field of medicine, hospitals, or private practices, although I may be a medical student. I'm also not as young as most of my classmates. I may come across as idealistic, but the truth is that I've watched physicians that are great, that do more than they have to, and I hope to be like that.

I don't expect even most of my hours as a physician to be good, happy, worry-free, and I expect that the vast majority won't be, but that's pretty much true of life in general. It might only be 5 min in a day that can make a day great. I guess I fall more in the category of optimist as opposed to idealist.
 
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Urgent care pretty much is the same across the country. Rates run $80-$100 /hr depending on the clinic.

I know that's a lot of money, but when you compare to PAs, its really not that great. If you go to the PA forum website, its not rare to see PAs making $80/hr. And PA's making 70-75/hr is very common in EM. Shouldn't FM get more?
 
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I know that's a lot of money, but when you compare to PAs, its really not that great. If you go to the PA forum website, its not rare to see PAs making $80/hr. And PA's making 70-75/hr is very common in EM. Shouldn't FM get more?

They should. That's why FM is a poor choice.
 
I know that's a lot of money, but when you compare to PAs, its really not that great. If you go to the PA forum website, its not rare to see PAs making $80/hr. And PA's making 70-75/hr is very common in EM. Shouldn't FM get more?
You can make far more than $80/hr if you're willing to look around. The peak earning potential of a PA is still far less than that of a FM physician that's willing to put in long hours or relocate.
 
Residents in my area, the south, regularly getting offers starting at 240-275k no call no OB no weekends full loan repayment to work in the burbs. Keep hating on FM. It's good for my future job security.


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It's good to see that most of the FM physicians on here are so optimistic about compensation. Over on the peds forum most everyone on there is quite the opposite. "Most peds docs are starting at 140k out of residency" kind of thing. This is despite the fact that most surveys I've seen show peds and FM compensation as being very similar.

I wonder if attitude and expectations regarding compensation become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
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are you ever not a grumpasaurus rex?

Grumpasaurus rex? never been called that before. But to answer your question, I'm guessing you are referring to my negative view of the direction and current scope of family medicine. And, the answer is no. As long as physicians and not just family physicians are being taken advantage off I chose to fight back and let others know that if they don't they will become extinct or worse employees of MBA administrators. If you like Family Medicine you should stand up for yourself.

I hope that answers your question.
 
Residents in my area, the south, regularly getting offers starting at 240-275k no call no OB no weekends full loan repayment to work in the burbs. Keep hating on FM. It's good for my future job security.

I'm not hating on FM. FM/IM should be some of the best compensated fields. For some odd reason, our society has taken a swing to lower FM salaries, and place greater emphasis in EM, which sees everything including primary care pts. After reading this thread, I'd would be highly skeptical of the 240-275k starting. Both @Blue Dog and @cabinbuilder said, in the first few pages of this thread, to be highly cautious of anything with a starting salary over 250k.

Honestly, generally speaking, 150k is a great salary, but today we are w/ 300k in loans which makes it very difficult to save much for ~10 years post residency.

To summarize the wisdom of the docs on this entire thread:
  • Starting salary in non-rural areas: 150k (+/- 10K)
  • Urgent care rates: $80-100/hr
  • FM in ED rates: ~$100-120/hr
  • Established private practice: $250k+

I think the thing us students are worried about is the salary we could make ~4 years after residency without opening up a private practice or going rural. We see 180-220k stated, but how hard is it really to get there? Does it really start at 150k and jump to 200k in ~4 years?

Dr. Blue dog, Dr. cabin, et. al, can yall set us straight?
 
To summarize the wisdom of the docs on this entire thread:
  • Starting salary in non-rural areas: 150k (+/- 10K)
  • Urgent care rates: $80-100/hr
  • FM in ED rates: ~$100-120/hr
  • Established private practice: $250k+
I think the thing us students are worried about is the salary we could make ~4 years after residency without opening up a private practice or going rural. We see 180-220k stated, but how hard is it really to get there? Does it really start at 150k and jump to 200k in ~4 years?

Dr. Blue dog, Dr. cabin, et. al, can yall set us straight?

I can't speak to UC or ED rates, as I have no experience with that. However, those starting salary and established PP figures sound pretty accurate.
 
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I can't speak to UC or ED rates, as I have no experience with that. However, those starting salary and established PP figures sound pretty accurate.

Two quick questions:

1) if one doesn't go into private practice, what type of salary would you say is expected after 4 years?
2) does going into private practice involve taking out additional loans on top of school loans?

I think many of us prefer non private practice, cuz we've got more than enough debt.
 
Two quick questions:

1) if one doesn't go into private practice, what type of salary would you say is expected after 4 years?
2) does going into private practice involve taking out additional loans on top of school loans?

I think many of us prefer non private practice, cuz we've got more than enough debt.

Generally, salaried jobs in academia, the public sector, or a hospital/health system are going to be lower than what you'd earn in private practice, assuming your practice is well-run.

Typically, you don't take out a loan to join a private practice. A private practice is any solo or group practice that is physician-owned (e.g., not academic, public sector, or hospital/health system). Starting your own practice is another story.
 
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ED's in the south offer $200-$235/hour for FM trained physicians per offers in my inbox. Residencies down here have a heavy emphasis in EM and there aren't many boarded EM docs.


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I know that's a lot of money, but when you compare to PAs, its really not that great. If you go to the PA forum website, its not rare to see PAs making $80/hr. And PA's making 70-75/hr is very common in EM. Shouldn't FM get more?
Yes, but understand that my numbers are locum numbers so my hourly wage also includes all travel, rental car, housing, and malpractice - all of which the site picks up the tab.

Now at my current job which is salary, if I pick up extra shifts then I get $115/hr.
 
I'm not hating on FM. FM/IM should be some of the best compensated fields. For some odd reason, our society has taken a swing to lower FM salaries, and place greater emphasis in EM, which sees everything including primary care pts. After reading this thread, I'd would be highly skeptical of the 240-275k starting. Both @Blue Dog and @cabinbuilder said, in the first few pages of this thread, to be highly cautious of anything with a starting salary over 250k.

Honestly, generally speaking, 150k is a great salary, but today we are w/ 300k in loans which makes it very difficult to save much for ~10 years post residency.

To summarize the wisdom of the docs on this entire thread:
  • Starting salary in non-rural areas: 150k (+/- 10K)
  • Urgent care rates: $80-100/hr
  • FM in ED rates: ~$100-120/hr
  • Established private practice: $250k+

I think the thing us students are worried about is the salary we could make ~4 years after residency without opening up a private practice or going rural. We see 180-220k stated, but how hard is it really to get there? Does it really start at 150k and jump to 200k in ~4 years?

Dr. Blue dog, Dr. cabin, et. al, can yall set us straight?


Not that hard. My first job out of residency was 180K. Here I am 7 years later working urgent care in a mid size city of 100,000 and my base salary is 243K + incentives + RVU bonus + CME +license + sign on + moving + retirement + full insurance + malpractice. My set shifts are 10 (12 hrs) days a month. I can pick up extra shifts @115/hr. I also have kept one locums gig alive and I travel once a month to a different state to help them more for the change than the money. Plus it keeps up my free airline miles and hotel points so when I go on vacation I use my points and not my cash.

My student loans started at 220K. My payments a month are $1250
 
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Not that hard. My first job out of residency was 180K. Here I am 7 years later working urgent care in a mid size city of 100,000 and my base salary is 243K + incentives + RVU bonus + CME +license + sign on + moving + retirement + full insurance + malpractice. My set shifts are 10 (12 hrs) days a month. I can pick up extra shifts @115/hr. I also have kept one locums gig alive and I travel once a month to a different state to help them more for the change than the money. Plus it keeps up my free airline miles and hotel points so when I go on vacation I use my points and not my cash.

My student loans started at 220K. My payments a month are $1250

Thanks Cabin. Just a few follow up questions. 1) How far is you're mid size city from the nearest big city like Austin, Houston, etc? 2) Is the 115/hr doing EM or urgent care or something else? Did you say the 243k job was EM?

On a side note, why don't you just max on paying down debt? From my understanding someone making 180k/yr = 12k/month (after taxes). Live off of 9k and pay 3k to loans? --I realize you have probably have other financial goals, supporting parents, kids, etc. which we deff. don't need to know. I'm just trying to figure out if I'm doing the math right, or if $1250 really is the max one can pay making 250k+/yr.
 
Thanks Cabin. Just a few follow up questions. 1) How far is you're mid size city from the nearest big city like Austin, Houston, etc? 2) Is the 115/hr doing EM or urgent care or something else? Did you say the 243k job was EM?

On a side note, why don't you just max on paying down debt? From my understanding someone making 180k/yr = 12k/month (after taxes). Live off of 9k and pay 3k to loans? --I realize you have probably have other financial goals, supporting parents, kids, etc. which we deff. don't need to know. I'm just trying to figure out if I'm doing the math right, or if $1250 really is the max one can pay making 250k+/yr.

My student loan debt is the least of my problems right now and has the lowest interest of all my debt so it's way on the back burner currently. I don't pay the max, I pay the minimum right now. My job is strictly urgent care. I don't do ER anymore. I am 3 hours to San Antonio.
 
I'm not hating on FM. FM/IM should be some of the best compensated fields. For some odd reason, our society has taken a swing to lower FM salaries, and place greater emphasis in EM, which sees everything including primary care pts. After reading this thread, I'd would be highly skeptical of the 240-275k starting. Both @Blue Dog and @cabinbuilder said, in the first few pages of this thread, to be highly cautious of anything with a starting salary over 250k.

Honestly, generally speaking, 150k is a great salary, but today we are w/ 300k in loans which makes it very difficult to save much for ~10 years post residency.

To summarize the wisdom of the docs on this entire thread:
  • Starting salary in non-rural areas: 150k (+/- 10K)
  • Urgent care rates: $80-100/hr
  • FM in ED rates: ~$100-120/hr
  • Established private practice: $250k+

I think the thing us students are worried about is the salary we could make ~4 years after residency without opening up a private practice or going rural. We see 180-220k stated, but how hard is it really to get there? Does it really start at 150k and jump to 200k in ~4 years?

Dr. Blue dog, Dr. cabin, et. al, can yall set us straight?


Can somebody please tell me why med students seem to have this 150k, number permanently fixed in their mind, even when people tell them they can make 200-25ok starting? Our residents here aren't signing for anything less than 220k
 
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Can somebody please tell me why med students seem to have this 150k, number permanently fixed in their mind, even when people tell them they can make 200-25ok starting? Our residents here aren't signing for anything less than 220k

Because docs like @VA Hopeful Dr and others have said that 150k is the typical starting salary.
 
Kaiser in DC and Northern Cali is offering 240k starting salary. its 5 days/week. no call/no weekends/all holidays off/ realistic workday is 830-600 to complete all charting though some could shave an hour off of that if willing to work through the 1 hour lunch. You see on average 18/day (from personal experience). Can be scheduled up to 22 but ends up being around the 18 with no shows and appointments not filling. there have been days when I end up seeing 9-10 and some days where I see 23 with walk ins (both situations are rare). You can do procedures if you want to but it wont lead to any real increase in pay. most people do them to keep up with skills/personal interest.

Salary 240k
retirement 5% given to 401k (fully vested after 5 years)
Pension (vest after 5 years)
Bonuses (15k/year on average)
4 weeks vaca(accumulates with each pay period) initially, after three years its 5 weeks, after 10 its 6 weeks

They are giving low interest loans right now that are written off if you stay 5-7 years. They pay the interest as long as you are working, if you leave you pay them back at 1% interest.
People got 75-125k when starting and used it to pay off high interest loans ASAP and if they leave before they can be written off they have a lower interest rate. I do believe that if you leave very soon after starting they expect the money back ASAP (Few months after starting).

Urgent care and hospitalist pay a little more but hours vary (you will work evening hours and weekend days along with holidays).

It is true what they say about the formulary being limited (ie insulin pens are expensive) and the specialist support is not what it is in the private world (similar to academia honestly), but I'm liking it so far.
I post this mainly because even with this reimbursement, we are begging for doctors. DO NOT SHORTCHANGE YOURSELF WHEN LOOKING FOR A JOB. The money makes a difference, it will buy financial security and likely an earlier retirement.

Anyone else have offers at a Kaiser or outside of a Kaiser like this? Where do these 240k starting salaries end up after 5-10 years? What's the ceiling like?
 
Can somebody please tell me why med students seem to have this 150k, number permanently fixed in their mind, even when people tell them they can make 200-25ok starting? Our residents here aren't signing for anything less than 220k

Because docs like @VA Hopeful Dr and others have said that 150k is the typical starting salary.

Because the FM docs who answer the Medscape survey apparently all work part time thus they have time to answer surveys.
 
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Because docs like @VA Hopeful Dr and others have said that 150k is the typical starting salary.

$150K is only typical in a saturated market. If you are looking in a market that is lacking in primary care ( like most of the country) then 180K should be your bottom number. Anyone with a few years experience should be able to ask 200K minimum base.
 
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$150K is only typical in a saturated market. If you are looking in a market that is lacking in primary care ( like most of the country) then 180K should be your bottom number. Anyone with a few years experience should be able to ask 200K minimum base.

I'm in a saturated market and fresh out will make the 200k.
I believe you should ask for something reasonable. No less than 200k, you're worth it. If they don't oblige and you like the job and they like you, they'll meet you half way. If you don't like the job much, say no thanks and move on. If you are limited, then take what you can get.
 
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The money is definitely there in family medicine, I'm in a accelerated program with 1st year residents (technically 4th year medical students) who have signed good contracts for 240+k with 20k/year loan repayment, 1.5k/month stipend in residency, and 20k sign on bonuses in towns <20k. Perfect for me because I can't wait to get back to rural areas of my state, can't wait to sign that contract! Granted this "accelerated" program has a year of pure procedures so hospitals in my state seek out these future docs to a high degree
 
The money is definitely there in family medicine, I'm in a accelerated program with 1st year residents (technically 4th year medical students) who have signed good contracts for 240+k with 20k/year loan repayment, 1.5k/month stipend in residency, and 20k sign on bonuses in towns <20k. Perfect for me because I can't wait to get back to rural areas of my state, can't wait to sign that contract! Granted this "accelerated" program has a year of pure procedures so hospitals in my state seek out these future docs to a high degree
What's an accelerated program exactly
 
The money is definitely there in family medicine, I'm in a accelerated program with 1st year residents (technically 4th year medical students) who have signed good contracts for 240+k with 20k/year loan repayment, 1.5k/month stipend in residency, and 20k sign on bonuses in towns <20k. Perfect for me because I can't wait to get back to rural areas of my state, can't wait to sign that contract! Granted this "accelerated" program has a year of pure procedures so hospitals in my state seek out these future docs to a high degree

I wonder what kind of money these places are offering if you wait until after school to commit? Any advantage to jumping the gun? Especially if you know what they're offering students. I'd be like hey... You gave them 150k in benefits. I'm going to need a larger sign on bonus.


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The money is definitely there in family medicine, I'm in a accelerated program with 1st year residents (technically 4th year medical students) who have signed good contracts for 240+k with 20k/year loan repayment, 1.5k/month stipend in residency, and 20k sign on bonuses in towns <20k. Perfect for me because I can't wait to get back to rural areas of my state, can't wait to sign that contract! Granted this "accelerated" program has a year of pure procedures so hospitals in my state seek out these future docs to a high degree


Would be interesting to what those contracts require,
 
Start residency as a 4th year. But have a year at the end for pure procedures/what your hospital wants you to do.. So still a 3 year fm residency after medical school.

No reason to wait as far as I've seen... Basically not getting that 1.5k stipend each month

Contracts are seriously very reasonable. Equal call (every 6th weekend) she is doing ob though. Also will see her patients in the hospital (appx 1 hour each week). Nps and pas cover call during the week. They need docs in my state
 
Start residency as a 4th year. But have a year at the end for pure procedures/what your hospital wants you to do.. So still a 3 year fm residency after medical school.

No reason to wait as far as I've seen... Basically not getting that 1.5k stipend each month

Contracts are seriously very reasonable. Equal call (every 6th weekend) she is doing ob though. Also will see her patients in the hospital (appx 1 hour each week). Nps and pas cover call during the week. They need docs in my state

OB = no go in my book.
So, med school is 3 years? When is graduation? Sounds like something for those who know they're going rural primary care.
 
Start residency as a 4th year. But have a year at the end for pure procedures/what your hospital wants you to do.. So still a 3 year fm residency after medical school.

No reason to wait as far as I've seen... Basically not getting that 1.5k stipend each month

Contracts are seriously very reasonable. Equal call (every 6th weekend) she is doing ob though. Also will see her patients in the hospital (appx 1 hour each week). Nps and pas cover call during the week. They need docs in my state


Does that 1.5k stipend start in the first year of residency, like the first month of residency?
 
Can someone explain this 3 year med school the poster is talking about?
 
I prefer my program: three years of med school, one of them fully paid, and a guaranteed residency spot as an MS1:

https://www.ttuhsc.edu/som/fammed/fmat/

I like the idea of shortening med school and lengthening residency for family medicine honestly. I know the FM people are worried that students would be even less likely to pursue FM if the training were longer, but I think a lot of people are interested in FM but don't pursue it because of the prestige factor. FM would get more respect if it were "harder." Two more years of procedures, ICU, ER, radiology, surgical OB, etc. would make it more attractive and gain more of the publics confidence. Right now FM is seen as mostly a referral service. I say this as someone going into FM that will try to improve its perception.


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I like the idea of shortening med school and lengthening residency for family medicine honestly. I know the FM people are worried that students would be even less likely to pursue FM if the training were longer, but I think a lot of people are interested in FM but don't pursue it because of the prestige factor. FM would get more respect if it were "harder." Two more years of procedures, ICU, ER, radiology, surgical OB, etc. would make it more attractive and gain more of the publics confidence. Right now FM is seen as mostly a referral service. I say this as someone going into FM that will try to improve its perception.


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the respect is all about money. difficulty means nothing. no one thinks derm is hard, it's just hard to get into.....because money

I think FM is messing up by underselling their training for a different reason. They are the most vulnerable to midlevel creep. NPs have a better "but we're the same" argument if the FM docs are admitting they can be trained in less years. Either way, the nurses are coming but this trend isn't helping the docs
 
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I like the idea of shortening med school and lengthening residency for family medicine honestly. I know the FM people are worried that students would be even less likely to pursue FM if the training were longer, but I think a lot of people are interested in FM but don't pursue it because of the prestige factor. FM would get more respect if it were "harder." Two more years of procedures, ICU, ER, radiology, surgical OB, etc. would make it more attractive and gain more of the publics confidence. Right now FM is seen as mostly a referral service. I say this as someone going into FM that will try to improve its perception.


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The length of the residency is not the problem. Stop shooting yourself in the foot.

The problem:

1. Needing and undergrad degree to go to med school. 4 years of garbage.
2. FM programs have slowly given up their right to procedures and certain learning.
3. There are certain rotations that are mostly useless. Like surgery. Why the hell does an FM resident need to spend time in the OR being a scud monkey. Perhaps more specific office surgical procedures.
4. The public perception of FM is due to the medical perception. If FM's had time to do more they would as long as the training allowed it. More time won't help this. Time spent better would.
5. FM needs to have access to fellowships that IM has access to. There is no reason why an FM doctor can't go in to GI or Cardiology or whatever.

That's how we make FM more competitive along with better pay.
 
The length of the residency is not the problem. Stop shooting yourself in the foot.

The problem:

1. Needing and undergrad degree to go to med school. 4 years of garbage.
2. FM programs have slowly given up their right to procedures and certain learning.
3. There are certain rotations that are mostly useless. Like surgery. Why the hell does an FM resident need to spend time in the OR being a scud monkey. Perhaps more specific office surgical procedures.
4. The public perception of FM is due to the medical perception. If FM's had time to do more they would as long as the training allowed it. More time won't help this. Time spent better would.
5. FM needs to have access to fellowships that IM has access to. There is no reason why an FM doctor can't go in to GI or Cardiology or whatever.

That's how we make FM more competitive along with better pay.
Some of this is good, some less so.

1. Undergrad would still be a good idea except that it seems like most pre-meds do a science major with few if any non-science classes. If schools still had rigorous core requirements I think we'd see better results.
2. Yeah, that is unfortunate. The price of specializing everything I suppose.
3. Surgery at a university center is, yes. I did it at a community program where I spent more time in the private practice surgeon's office than the OR. It was a great way to learn who is a surgical patient and who really isn't. Plus, did a fair bit of office-based stuff.
4. Very true. Since going DPC I've started to manage things that I never would have considered in a 10 minute appointment.
5. I've often thought that, especially for things like Allergy. Are you really telling me that a pediatrician, after an allergy fellowship, will be better able to take care of adult allergy patients compared to one of us?
 
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