How much does the school you go to matter?

[whereislunch]

I'm not a med student, don't wanna be.
HOWEVER!
I'm committed to one and they got into some pretty nice schools. We chose to relocate to hanover and go to Dartmouth, but then Cornell was like "Hey, we want you afterall". Which was her dream school so to speak but she also doesn't enjoy NYC.

No idea what it will cost or where we would live if we took that path yet.

No idea if its a better school, I went to local city schools and did just fine for myself in life with some hard work.

Would their life be that much different after medical school choosing one over the other ? is this whole topic blown out of proportion?

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[username456789]

Important question: why is Cornell her "dream school." A big part of the school is its environment as well, so I'm curious as to why this would be her dream school when she does not like /want to live in NYC.

More often than not, these ideas of "dream school" are some fanciful misguided vision based on intangible feelings that at the end of the day mean little. Does she have some connection to Cornell's undergrad institution? Is she interested In a particular mission the school shares? Does she just really like Andy from The Office?

Start by having her figure out why Cornell is her dream school in the first place.

 

[whereislunch]

Important question: why is Cornell her "dream school." A big part of the school is its environment as well, so I'm curious as to why this would be her dream school when she does not like /want to live in NYC.

More often than not, these ideas of "dream school" are some fanciful misguided vision based on intangible feelings that at the end of the day mean little. Does she have some connection to Cornell's undergrad institution? Is she interested In a particular mission the school shares? Does she just really like Andy from The Office?

Start by having her figure out why Cornell is her dream school in the first place.

yeah, I asked her to take a step back and do exactly this. I just can't do anything other than misguide her since I have no idea what the differences would be especially at this level of school I doubt the differences outside of the location are that great. But when in doubt... ask.

 

[whereislunch]

also of note, NYU was not an option for us because she wasn't crazy about the school and it would have made our living situation kind of tight. at dartmouth we're going to be 15-20 mins away from the college.

Just something about Cornell.

 

[mw18]

All schools will prepare you adequately. Her career goals certainly factor in. People on sdn (rightfully) have an issue with using "better" between schools. Without totally lending credence to "tiers" and "prestige" I would say that I believe Cornell to be the objectively better option. But this all depends on the type of career she wants and her goals. And I personally really loved Dartmouth when I interviewed there, but I would have gone to Cornell instead. And I hate the idea of living in NYC. I also wouldn't want to always wonder "what if?", but I guess that applies to either place.

 

[whereislunch]

But this all depends on the type of career she wants and her goals. And I personally really loved Dartmouth when I interviewed there, but I would have gone to Cornell instead. And I hate the idea of living in NYC. I also wouldn't want to always wonder "what if?", but I guess that applies to either place.

What type of career would one offer over the other?

 

[akwho]

There are already numerous threads on this, including this one from January, 2016: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...tier-competitive-specialty-residency.1179264/

Here is my post from that thread:

As someone who is going through the match process now for a competitive surgical subspecialty, I will respectfully disagree with the majority of posters in this thread. At most of the elite academic programs I've been to for interview, the top-15 medical schools are heavily over-represented among the interviewees, and almost all the applicants being interviewed are from top-30 medical schools. The elite academic residents are certainly almost all from top-15 medical schools with the occasional exception. Luckily this is not the case at good middle-tier and community programs where the barriers to entry are not as high.

Everyone always wants to know, "what's most important" to match a competitive specialty. Is it 3rd year grades, AOA, Step 1, Step 2, LOR's, research, leadership EC's, med school name, aways, or is it connections? The answer is simple, everything is most important if you want to match at elite programs in a competitive specialty. There are few degrees of separation at the top strata of applicants and the name of the game is you are trying to build an application package that looks superior to your peers. So you will have to do everything right to succeed, including going to the "right" medical school.

I've found that high Step 1, AOA and my med school name were extremely helpful for acquiring interviews. Then the rest of the application package (research, EC's, LORs) + the interview (most important) are what gets you ranked to match per the residents above me.


This is a n=1 experience in a very specific situation, competitive subspecialty, at the most competitive programs. So this advice probably only applies to about 1,000 out of the 41,000 people going into the match each year. For the majority of people I agree with the White Coat Investor -- choose the cheapest option available to you. Medical education is widely standardized and you will self-study for the most part anyway.

 

[whereislunch]

There are already numerous threads on this, including this one from January, 2016: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...tier-competitive-specialty-residency.1179264/

Here is my post from that thread:

So in essence, it makes not a difference since these schools both rank high ?

 

[Cytarabine]

It matters. How much it matters isn't easily quantifiable. If you want a competitive specialty, a competitive program, or to eventually do academic medicine, it matters more

 

[235009]

Cornell vs Dartmouth won't make a noticeable difference. Pick based on price, location and other happiness factors.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Myoclonic_Jerk]

It RARELY matters if you are in an US MD program. The only advantage is if a school has a particular strong / renowned residency program in something you absolutely know you want to do (most people change their mind at least 5 times throughout medical school)

Being associated with the school lets you more naturally schmooze with the people who will be evaluating your application / writing your recommendation so it certainly doesn't hurt.

But if it's between 2 top tier schools, you'd want to go where you're gonna be happiest location and school wise, since it will be 4 years and many folks wind up staying local for their residency.

 

[Jumb0]

Doesn't matter. Like others have said, choose based on fit. Especially in this case; they are close enough in prestige that it would be foolish to make that the deciding factor.

I chose Dartmouth over University of Washington this year. Sure UWash is a Top 10, but Dartmouth is closer to home, cheaper, and an overall more comfortable place for me to spend the next four years of my life. People on SDN are way too obsessed with US News rankings. If you think going to Dartmouth med is going to close any doors, you're a goddamn fool.

 

[WedgeDawg]

What are her career goals and what do you both value most about living situation, regional preference, accommodations, etc?

 

[Montisumo]

I'm not a med student, don't wanna be.
HOWEVER!
I'm committed to one and they got into some pretty nice schools. We chose to relocate to hanover and go to Dartmouth, but then Cornell was like "Hey, we want you afterall". Which was her dream school so to speak but she also doesn't enjoy NYC.

No idea what it will cost or where we would live if we took that path yet.

No idea if its a better school, I went to local city schools and did just fine for myself in life with some hard work.

Would their life be that much different after medical school choosing one over the other ? is this whole topic blown out of proportion?

I don't know why people are saying school name doesn't matter, perhaps they've never been in academia or industry. For either, name matters quite a bit especially since it DOES impact match. Ofc you can match anywhere from any US MD school, but the better the name the more competitive match (based on the data). Now if your wife/gf/friend wants to go into private practice I don't think name matters as much. For private practice word of mouth and marketing matters more than anything. The more money you have to throw at your practice, the more popular it will become assuming the quality of care is above a certain threshold. Do not be fooled. Name matters. Cornell is a better program than Dartmouth, but it's hard to quantify by how much. The biggest factor to look at for myself is how much money does each school get for research. Since I'm a scientist, that was a huge factor. Maybe for your wife it's about which school offers better connections for residency? Idk, but NYC vs Hanover is a big difference in terms of connections. Just look at how many top schools are in each area for the reasons why.

 

[Montisumo]

Doesn't matter. Like others have said, choose based on fit. Especially in this case; they are close enough in prestige that it would be foolish to make that the deciding factor.

I chose Dartmouth over University of Washington this year. Sure UWash is a Top 10, but Dartmouth is closer to home, cheaper, and an overall more comfortable place for me to spend the next four years of my life. People on SDN are way too obsessed with US News rankings. If you think going to Dartmouth med is going to close any doors, you're a goddamn fool.

it won't close any doors, but you should be careful telling people that name doesn't matter because it sure does.

 

[Jumb0]

it won't close any doors, but you should be careful telling people that name doesn't matter because it sure does.

Sure, the name/ranking of your school is one factor, but the general consensus is that it's the least important. Board scores, class rank, letters of recommendation, research experience, and interview skills matter a hell of a lot more. School name might come into play in the event of a tie-breaker between otherwise equivalent applicants, but I still wouldn't sacrifice fit /affordability / family proximity / general comfort just to say that I went to a school that's better ranked on US News. Unless you want to go into academia, the value of school name is pretty unremarkable.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

If you want to go into academic medicine, name and the research opportunities a medical school can afford you matter more. But it still won't make up for poor clinical grades, mediocre Step 1, bad interviewing skills, etc.

 

[Wordead]

Sure, the name/ranking of your school is one factor, but the general consensus is that it's the least important. Board scores, class rank, letters of recommendation, research experience, and interview skills matter a hell of a lot more. School name might come into play in the event of a tie-breaker between otherwise equivalent applicants, but I still wouldn't sacrifice fit /affordability / family proximity / general comfort just to say that I went to a school that's better ranked on US News. Unless you want to go into academia, the value of school name is pretty unremarkable.

You must be an attending, so much authority in your advice

 

[Cognovi]

So in essence, it makes not a difference since these schools both rank high ?

Be wary that the prestige of the college pulls up the rest of the institution among those who are not familiar with the schools or rankings. The difference between Cornell and Dartmouth is greater at the medical school level than at the undergraduate level. The difference is even greater at the residency level than at the medical school level. Cornell's medical center is also several times bigger than Dartmouth's. By reputation on the USNews survey, the difference among PDs and deans for these two medical schools is roughly 4.2 vs 3.6 out of 5.

 

[Slack3r]

Interesting that most of the people saying it doesn't matter are premeds or preclinical med students. Most saying it DOES matter (which it does) are residents, recently matched M4s, and attendings.

Bigger name schools will typically have more resources, bigger name faculty, more prestigious residencies, etc. You won't necessarily have any doors closed to you as a US MD student, per se, but you may have a tougher road than people from more highly ranked schools.

 

[Rekt]

Interesting that most of the people saying it doesn't matter are premeds or preclinical med students. Most saying it DOES matter (which it does) are residents, recently matched M4s, and attendings.

Bigger name schools will typically have more resources, bigger name faculty, more prestigious residencies, etc. You won't necessarily have any doors closed to you as a US MD student, per se, but you may have a tougher road than people from more highly ranked schools.

Pretty simple. People that go to non-top tier/lower ranked schools don't want to feel all butt hurt that the person that goes to Harvard has better chances at better residencies simply by name alone. I'm not sure why anyone thinks otherwise.

 

[Jumb0]

Pretty simple. People that go to non-top tier/lower ranked schools don't want to feel all butt hurt that the person that goes to Harvard has better chances at better residencies simply by name alone. I'm not sure why anyone thinks otherwise.

Go back to 4chan, bro...

The amount of insufferable god complex types I see on SDN is truly troubling. I just hope this isn't a reflection of the profession as a whole.

 

[Cytarabine]

Go back to 4chan, bro...

The amount of insufferable god complex types I see on SDN is truly troubling. I just hope this isn't a reflection of the profession as a whole.

Wat

 

[themockjock]

Go back to 4chan, bro...

The amount of insufferable god complex types I see on SDN is truly troubling. I just hope this isn't a reflection of the profession as a whole.

Yeah, what? You're telling me that him pointing out the fact that a HMS student has a better chance at MGH/BWH residencies than the student who goes to North Dakota State?*

As someone who went to a relatively lower-tier med school and matched in a super competitive (~3:1 ratio of applicants to spots) surgical subspecialty residency, I can say for sure that there were way more people from highly ranked med schools than from lower and those students were more highly recruited by PDs.

And yet, it's still possible to match well at a lower tier school. You just have to work your ass off to open the door yourself, rather than have it held open for you. On the whole, higher ranked schools have way more established research infrastructure, larger and more well-connected departments, and more well-connected faculty whose letters and phone calls will matter a great deal more coming from an MGH section head than from some associate professor from NDSU SOM.

I didn't have any of the above and still matched well... but my road would have been a lot easier if I had gone to HMS or JHU or whatever. The argument that all US MD schools are the same is a MUCH LESS extreme version of the "I know someone who matched into integrated plastics from the Caribbean therefore Caribbean is a great option for everyone 100% of the time."

Now if you want to do private practice IM, FM, Psych, etc. then all of the above argument is moot. Go somewhere cheap/somewhere you enjoy/whatever.

* Yes I know that there is no NDSU SOM but someone was liable to get all angry if I called their school a lower tier one.

 

[Jumb0]

Yeah, what? You're telling me that him pointing out the fact that a HMS student has a better chance at MGH/BWH residencies than the student who goes to North Dakota State?*

As someone who went to a relatively lower-tier med school and matched in a super competitive (~3:1 ratio of applicants to spots) surgical subspecialty residency, I can say for sure that there were way more people from highly ranked med schools than from lower and those students were more highly recruited by PDs.

And yet, it's still possible to match well at a lower tier school. You just have to work your ass off to open the door yourself, rather than have it held open for you. On the whole, higher ranked schools have way more established research infrastructure, larger and more well-connected departments, and more well-connected faculty whose letters and phone calls will matter a great deal more coming from an MGH section head than from some associate professor from NDSU SOM.

I didn't have any of the above and still matched well... but my road would have been a lot easier if I had gone to HMS or JHU or whatever. The argument that all US MD schools are the same is a MUCH LESS extreme version of the "I know someone who matched into integrated plastics from the Caribbean therefore Caribbean is a great option for everyone 100% of the time."

Now if you want to do private practice IM, FM, Psych, etc. then all of the above argument is moot. Go somewhere cheap/somewhere you enjoy/whatever.

* Yes I know that there is no NDSU SOM but someone was liable to get all angry if I called their school a lower tier one.

Your thought process seems to be suffering from a "chicken or the egg" fallacy...You must realize that the kids who go to HMS end up matching so well because they were HMS quality all along - that's why they got in. They didn't match well simply BECAUSE they went to HMS. The prestige that they enjoy by virtue of their school's name is largely a reflection of their preexisting quality as students. It follows that if someone who was HMS quality chose to go to a low-ranked school for whatever reason and worked just as hard as they would have at HMS, then they would, in all likelihood, match just the same as if they had gone to HMS. USMLE is the great equalizer in this case.

I'm not saying that school name is a non-factor. It's obviously something that residency directors consider. But is it worth sacrificing things such as location, fit, and affordability? I say definitely not. Go wherever it is convenient, cheaper, and more conducive to your overall happiness. Work your butt off there, and you WILL match into whatever speciality you choose if you had the aptitude for it in the first place.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm not a med student, don't wanna be.
HOWEVER!
I'm committed to one and they got into some pretty nice schools. We chose to relocate to hanover and go to Dartmouth, but then Cornell was like "Hey, we want you afterall". Which was her dream school so to speak but she also doesn't enjoy NYC.

No idea what it will cost or where we would live if we took that path yet.

No idea if its a better school, I went to local city schools and did just fine for myself in life with some hard work.

Would their life be that much different after medical school choosing one over the other ? is this whole topic blown out of proportion?

1) Is there a benefit to going to a stronger medical school?
Short Asnwer yes but limited.

The medical school (provided US MD) that one attends matters markedly less than college but it still matters. Anyone with exceptional grades and board scores from a low tier medical school will be able to match into a strong residency. That said, people at the top tiers are given more leyway. So those with average board scores and grades at Harvard will match better than those with average board scores at low tier state.

Now this difference is largely between large differences in tiers- not just a few spaces on the US news rankings. So if Bob from Harvard, Sue from Penn and Joey from Wash U are all compared, they are on level footing.

2) Does going to a stronger school impact what kind of residency you can match into?
Short answer: Maybe.

This one I don't think anyone can answer definitively. One would assume based on the above, there probably would be an easier time going to a competitive residency (Derm, Plastics, neurosurgery) from a higher tiered school but who knows. I can tell you everyone I know from my medical school (mid to low tier) who attempted to match a competitive specialty, did so successfully. But, there of course is self selection.

That said, if your girlfriend wants a non-competitive specialty, school choice will probably make less of a difference.


TLDR: Since Dartmouth and Cornell are not in markedly different tiers, school choice probably won't make too much of a difference.

 

[caseyjones]

Didn't read the entirety of this thread... but was just too darn excited to not jump in. Newsflash guys, more prestigious schools are able to garner more attractive candidates. That guy with the 39 MCAT? He probably chose Harvard over xyz state school. And while xyz school is more willing to throw money at 39 MCAT guy, on average the more prestigious schools will end up with the smarter kids. And smarter kids do better on step than not so smart kids. And then they match into plastics and drive away in their range rovers.

 

[W19]

I am convinced going to Harvard instead of Howard does matter A LOT...

 

[Wordead]

Your thought process seems to be suffering from a "chicken or the egg" fallacy...You must realize that the kids who go to HMS end up matching so well because they were HMS quality all along - that's why they got in. They didn't match well simply BECAUSE they went to HMS. The prestige that they enjoy by virtue of their school's name is largely a reflection of their preexisting quality as students. It follows that if someone who was HMS quality chose to go to a low-ranked school for whatever reason and worked just as hard as they would have at HMS, then they would, in all likelihood, match just the same as if they had gone to HMS. USMLE is the great equalizer in this case.

I'm not saying that school name is a non-factor. It's obviously something that residency directors consider. But is it worth sacrificing things such as location, fit, and affordability? I say definitely not. Go wherever it is convenient, cheaper, and more conducive to your overall happiness. Work your butt off there, and you WILL match into whatever speciality you choose if you had the aptitude for it in the first place.

A 220 from hopkins/harvard can still match derm/ent comfortably, same cannot be said for a mid tier applicant

 

[eteshoe]

If academic medicine is the end goal - name matters. It's the (un)fortunate truth.

 

[themockjock]

Your thought process seems to be suffering from a "chicken or the egg" fallacy...You must realize that the kids who go to HMS end up matching so well because they were HMS quality all along

Uh, you're missing the point son. 2 students with identical step scores, identical research, letters etc. and one is from NDSU SOM and one from HMS, the HMS kid wins. Second, top tier programs offer advantages to students independent of said student's aptitude in terms of research opportunities, faculty connections, etc. Third, there are absolutely lots of examples of students who are taken as residents and residents who are hired as faculty who are noticeably subpar in terms of clinical/technical acumen but who continue to move up the ladder because of their pedigree.

But please, in your infinite pre-med wisdom, continue to tell me how much my thought process suffers.

 

[Cognovi]

It follows that if someone who was HMS quality chose to go to a low-ranked school for whatever reason and worked just as hard as they would have at HMS, then they would, in all likelihood, match just the same as if they had gone to HMS. USMLE is the great equalizer in this case.

You have a fixed delusion if you think that the 255/AOA/1 publication applicant from Florida State has near the same chance of matching into UCSF IM as the 255/all High Honors/1 publication applicant from HMS.

 

[Anicetus]

Your thought process seems to be suffering from a "chicken or the egg" fallacy...You must realize that the kids who go to HMS end up matching so well because they were HMS quality all along - that's why they got in. They didn't match well simply BECAUSE they went to HMS. The prestige that they enjoy by virtue of their school's name is largely a reflection of their preexisting quality as students. It follows that if someone who was HMS quality chose to go to a low-ranked school for whatever reason and worked just as hard as they would have at HMS, then they would, in all likelihood, match just the same as if they had gone to HMS. USMLE is the great equalizer in this case.

I'm not saying that school name is a non-factor. It's obviously something that residency directors consider. But is it worth sacrificing things such as location, fit, and affordability? I say definitely not. Go wherever it is convenient, cheaper, and more conducive to your overall happiness. Work your butt off there, and you WILL match into whatever speciality you choose if you had the aptitude for it in the first place.

I used to think it didn't matter before I went to medical school. After being in medical school I can see it does matter. It used to not matter as much but now because of increased medical schools and competition it's increasing in importance.

That being said, if you can be a rock star from a low tier MD school, AOA, 260 on step 1, you can compete with the middle of pack Harvard medical students when applying to competitive specialties/hospitals.

 

[Montisumo]

Sure, the name/ranking of your school is one factor, but the general consensus is that it's the least important. Board scores, class rank, letters of recommendation, research experience, and interview skills matter a hell of a lot more. School name might come into play in the event of a tie-breaker between otherwise equivalent applicants, but I still wouldn't sacrifice fit /affordability / family proximity / general comfort just to say that I went to a school that's better ranked on US News. Unless you want to go into academia, the value of school name is pretty unremarkable.

it's important to remember that just because you wouldn't sacrifice money and location for name doesn't mean someone else might prefer to choose name over all else. So be careful giving advice suited for yourself. Name matters quite a bit especially when you consider the intangibles like having mentors who are friends with all the top residency directors. Yes every school has people with connections, but top programs are unique in this regard. But I agree with you that name really shouldn't matter since we all learn the same BS: heart lungs there's a brain blah blah blah.

 

[Jumb0]

You have a fixed delusion if you think that the 255/AOA/1 publication applicant from Florida State has near the same chance of matching into UCSF IM as the 255/all High Honors/1 publication applicant from HMS.

I never disagreed with this. If you look at my previous post, I literally stated "school name might come into play in the event of a tie-breaker between otherwise equivalent applicants."

Uh, you're missing the point son. 2 students with identical step scores, identical research, letters etc. and one is from NDSU SOM and one from HMS, the HMS kid wins. Second, top tier programs offer advantages to students independent of said student's aptitude in terms of research opportunities, faculty connections, etc. Third, there are absolutely lots of examples of students who are taken as residents and residents who are hired as faculty who are noticeably subpar in terms of clinical/technical acumen but who continue to move up the ladder because of their pedigree.

But please, in your infinite pre-med wisdom, continue to tell me how much my thought process suffers.

Again, I don't doubt that school ranking/prestige has an effect, but the effect diminishes rapidly down the rankings. The OP specifically asked about Cornell vs. Dartmouth, which are not that far apart in reality, but you guys keep trying to make your point with extreme examples like Harvard versus North Dakota...Come on now. The ranking difference between Dartmouth and Cornell does not really warrant uprooting your entire life, which is what OP is considering. They'll both get you where you want to go, and the difference in ease of getting there that would be conferred by the slight prestige boost of Cornell is unremarkable at best, if it exists at all.

 

[Cognovi]

The ranking difference between Dartmouth and Cornell does not really warrant uprooting your entire life, which is what OP is considering. They'll both get you where you want to go, and the difference in ease of getting there that would be conferred by the slight prestige boost of Cornell is unremarkable at best, if it exists at all.

The real question for OP's SO is whether she wants to learn medicine in a rural setting at a less prestigious institution just so she doesn't have to live in NYC.

 

[avgn]

ITT we have a premed arguing with med students and attendings over an experience that he is far from getting into...on the allopathic boards, no less

k

 

[Urzuz]

I don't normally venture into this forum but it popped up on the front page so I decided to comment. The answer to this question is a very subjective one and hence the reason why you are getting such different and vocal opinions on the issue. I will simply present the facts from my experience.

I have sat on admissions committees for both academic and non-academic residency programs, and I can tell you that what school an applicant goes to is factored into how they rank. In fact, we used to assign a point value to a number of different aspects of the application, and candidates with more points would get ranked higher usually (there was a category that we used to adjust an applicant's total points up or down based on one's overall feeling of the applicant). The Harvards, UPenns, and Stanfords of the world would get assigned a "5", while the "North Dakota States" would get a "1." And this was at a community hospital residency program. The residency application process at a large academic center was similar. So, yes, it is objectively accounted for at a number of residency programs. The weight it is given will be heavily determined by the program itself, the specialty, etc.

Now as to whether or not the name "matters" depends on a number of other considerations: where do you want to live long term? If you have a specific geographic location in mind, you may want to go to a less prestigious school as it may increase your chances of getting a job in that area. What about the financial aid the schools are providing? Do you know what field you want to go into? Maybe the less prestigious school has a less well-known name but has an incredible pediatrics program that you want to apply to down the road. Or maybe you just got an amazing feeling from the Dean of Medicine and have a good "feeling" at a less well-known school. There are too many factors to account for here, but I hope you all get the point.

Anyway, I hope this post was helpful. Best of luck.

 

[Affiche]

ITT we have a premed arguing with med students and attendings over an experience that he is far from getting into...on the allopathic boards, no less

k

Good and bad advice is given by pre-meds, med students, residents and attendings alike, so lets not pretend that title qualifies the point, because it doesn't.

FWIW, I work with four "big-shot" PIs at a major academic institution and after speaking to them at length about my school choices, every single one of them encouraged me to withdraw from the ivy league in favor of a full ride to a much lower ranked school. The truth is that whether or not pedigree is worth sacrificing for (whether it be money, location, or whatever) depends heavily on the individual's personal and career goals. Dropping an excellent fit for a "better" program may not be a wise decision, depending on the goals here. For me, my situation, and my goals, choosing the (significantly) cheaper school was the right decision, but that might not be the case for someone else.

What is the cost difference here? What is the draw to stay at Dartmouth? What is the draw to Cornell? Note: "We've already moved here" isn't a reason to stay. The difficult thing about sacrificing for a "better" program is that sometimes the benefits of a better program don't materialize, so you really have to run a costs/benefits analyses here, which can be a very subjective experience.

 

[Wordead]

Good and bad advice is given by pre-meds, med students, residents and attendings alike, so lets not pretend that title qualifies the point, because it doesn't.

FWIW, I work with four "big-shot" PIs at a major academic institution and after speaking to them at length about my school choices, every single one of them encouraged me to withdraw from the ivy league in favor of a full ride to a much lower ranked school. The truth is that whether or not pedigree is worth sacrificing for (whether it be money, location, or whatever) depends heavily on the individual's personal and career goals. Dropping an excellent fit for a "better" program may not be a wise decision, depending on the goals here. For me, my situation, and my goals, choosing the (significantly) cheaper school was the right decision, but that might not be the case for someone else.

What is the cost difference here? What is the draw to stay at Dartmouth? What is the draw to Cornell? Note: "We've already moved here" isn't a reason to stay. The difficult thing about sacrificing for a "better" program is that sometimes the benefits of a better program don't materialize, so you really have to run a costs/benefits analyses here, which can be a very subjective experience.

Sure, nobody's career goal ever changes and what you want to do as a premed is the same as when you're a M4.

 

[Slack3r]

Good and bad advice is given by pre-meds, med students, residents and attendings alike, so lets not pretend that title qualifies the point, because it doesn't.

Sure, like the bad advice you received from those PIs.

 

[avgn]

Good and bad advice is given by pre-meds, med students, residents and attendings alike, so lets not pretend that title qualifies the point, because it doesn't.

Except the title is the reason he doesn't understand what other people are saying, so it does qualify the point here.

 

[Affiche]

Sure, nobody's career goal ever changes and what you want to do as a premed is the same as when you're a M4.

Fair enough, but that's why different advice is given to different people.

Sure, like the bad advice you received from those PIs.

What a downright foolish statement. You don't have any idea about the cost difference, my financial situation, my family situation, my career goals, my background, which region I want to practice in, which schools we're even talking about, or really anything, but you think you can discount the advice of those who are privy to that information? Get real. "Better" programs are not always the better choice, and any advice given without taking these factors into consideration is far from helpful.

 

[Affiche]

Except the title is the reason he doesn't understand what other people are saying, so it does qualify the point here.

Actually, it looks like there are residents and med students in here saying more or less the same thing as the pre-med you discounted solely because of his title. My PIs have also said nearly the same things, and they sit on the admissions committee for one of the top residencies in the country, so I doubt they are oblivious to the fact that school name matters, they just disagree with SDN as to how much it matters. @Instatewaiter's post summed it up the best.

 

[doczebra]

You'd be insane to turn down Cornell.

It doesnt matter whatever rank Dartmouth has, the REAL cheese is that Cornell is in the midst of NYU Langone, Mt. Sinai, Sloan Kettering, and NY-P. The attending at these hospitals bounce around and know each other very well. One letter from your Cornell Surgery attending can match you into most manhattan hospitals even if you bomb the boards.

Other students from top schools like Duke/Vandy/Dartmouth wont have that luxury. At best, they'll just have their lone home program and small local hospitals to count on.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

Dartmouth vs Cornell? Won't matter.

Does going to a significantly more prestigious school help with residency? Undoubtedly. Some say that it adds an automatic 10+ points to Step scores, although I can't speak to the veracity of this claim, since I'm not a PD.

Tangential, but relevant to some of the posts here: are students at "better" schools necessarily better? Absolutely not. There are hundreds of students at "top" schools who score in the 230s and 240s on their Steps, and hundreds in "low-tier" schools who crack 250. But residencies like to see pedigree on their match lists.

 

[Stagg737]

Sure, nobody's career goal ever changes and what you want to do as a premed is the same as when you're a M4.

An obviously valid point, but when considering OP's case is the difference between Cornell and Dartmouth great enough for this to be relevant?

It doesnt matter whatever rank Dartmouth has, the REAL cheese is that Cornell is in the midst of NYU Langone, Mt. Sinai, Sloan Kettering, and NY-P. The attending at these hospitals bounce around and know each other very well. One letter from your Cornell Surgery attending can match you into most manhattan hospitals even if you bomb the boards.

This point becomes significantly less relevant when you consider OP's SO doesn't seem to want to be in NY...

 

[Wordead]

An obviously valid point, but when considering OP's case is the difference between Cornell and Dartmouth great enough for this to be relevant?



This point becomes significantly less relevant when you consider OP's SO doesn't seem to want to be in NY...

I dont know what OP's career goals are. Dartmouth's surgical programs are pretty weak when compared to the its reputation though.

 

[Mansamusa]

I'm not yet a med student, but I spoke with a PD at one of the NYC academic centers to get advice. I was comparing a mid-tier with strong name recognition vs a low-tier that may end up being $50K less. Her words were that the match opportunities coming from that mid-tier were worth the money over the low-tier "unless I was planning on scoring above the 90th percentile on STEP" (I ended up getting rejected from that low-tier so it didn't even matter, haha). And from comparing all the other schools I interviewed at with this PD, the USNews rankings isn't the best measure of how schools outside of the top schools are viewed since name recognition>> USNews rankings.

(That being said, like Affiche, if I got a full-tuition scholarship that would trump prestige for me. So it's not straight forward)

 

[username456789]

Name does matter.

But NYC is terrible and a cesspool, so take that into consideration as well.