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How to train an eye surgeon

Discussion in 'Ophthalmology: Eye Physicians & Surgeons' started by MKE2STL, Apr 30, 2012.

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  1. MKE2STL

    MKE2STL

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    It seems obvious to me that the only people who should be performing eye surgery, using lasers, or performing intraocular injections are people who have completed ophthalmology residencies. No one else has the training to safely provide this care and handle all of the complications that may arise.

    The question I have is what is the best pathway to ophthalmology residency? Is medical school the best, in which students acquire a broad overview of the entire field of medicine? Or is optometry school more appropriate, in which the education is heavily focused on the eye? Both seem to have their advantages. Any thoughts?

    Also, why is there a preliminary year for ophthalmology residencies? It seems like a huge waste of time. Having a year of ophthalmology research or spending that year learning more in-depth knowledge about the eyes seems like it would be much better spent.
  2. Hemichordate

    Hemichordate Pre-ophtho resident

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    Optometrists can get residencies? Don't they have to go to medical school as well, and then apply for one, or is there a different system for their post-graduate training?

    I, for one, think the broad overview that one gets from medical school is critical- not so much for the information that you learn, but for the critical thinking abilities that you develop along the way. Those are what's going to be useful when you come up with your differential diagnoses as a physician.
  3. FunnyCurrent

    FunnyCurrent Ripe Prince of Westwood

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    inb4 that shrekky fellow comes in here and starts spouting nonsense...

    Yes optometrists can get additional training beyond their Optometry program however it does not confer them a greater scope of practice.
  4. Visionary

    Visionary Medical Retinologist

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    The dead horse has politely requested that the beatings stop.
  5. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    To practice as a Doctor of Optometry in states that allow Optometrists to do injections and/or laser surgery you have to pass specific state licensing exams that are usually much harder than states with a more restrictive scope of practice. Example: In North Carolina you need to not just pass all 3 parts of the national board exam but you need to have gotten at least in the 80th percentile in each section. And you need to have passed the TMOD supplementary exam as well.
  6. MKE2STL

    MKE2STL

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    Passing tests are no substitute for clinical experience.
  7. OPPforlife

    OPPforlife

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    I am just a rising fourth year medical student so forgive me. However, I really don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this concept. Ophthalmologists are medical doctors that specialize in the eye. Just like pulmonologists are doctors that specialize in the lungs, anesthesiologists are doctors that specialize in anesthesia, and radiologists, yes even radiologists are medical doctors that specialize in radiologic imaging. Why is this concept so hard to grasp for so many people???
  8. MKE2STL

    MKE2STL

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    That's right. Let's ban ideas that make you uncomfortable. Btw your argument lacks substance. The only reason optoms shouldn't do cataracts is because then they won't be able to refract? Maybe opticians will take over the optom role and optoms will take over the ophtho role. Professions are not static throughout history.
  9. namams

    namams

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    Wow, don't typecast all of us due to the actions of one or two. Besides, the OP is calling him/herself a medical student - for all we know they could be an uneducated, jobless 30yo schizo living in their mom's basement.

    I think this thread should be locked.
    Next time don't feed the troll and the thread will just disappear into the depths of SDN.
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  10. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    You are right. You have to prove your clinical competence as well in states such as these by a practical. I don't know all the details but google is your friend. ODs have been doing surgery in Oklahoma for 20 years. I'm sure if people were going blind left and right it wouldn't be the case presently. Its not a matter of if ODs can be trained to do invasive procedures. Its more about protecting the Ophthalmology turf that they worked so hard to attain by doing not so relevant coursework for 9 years before they began their ophtho residency (4 years college, 4 years med school, 1 year internship). Can't you see? We must protect inefficient educational pathways! How dare a 4 year graduate program be only focused on the eye! Who do they think they are?

    :p
  11. Visionary

    Visionary Medical Retinologist

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  12. MiBicicleta

    MiBicicleta

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    Why doesn't anyone challenge this statement with a rational fact-based argument? The only thing I've seen so far is name calling (troll), claiming this is not the correct sub-forum for this content, pleading for the ban-hammer, or pulling the old "you're beatin' a dead horse" gambit. It seems a bit desperate.
  13. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    They challenge it in congress and they lose more often than they win. That's where it matters. SDN is just a playground when it comes to politics.

    lol @ visionary, great picture to describe what is going on

    [​IMG]
  14. idoktor

    idoktor

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    I think as a physician, no matter what specialty, it's your duty to have a basic grasp of medicine in general. Also, having an understanding of the pathophysiology, manifestations, and treatment principles of the numerous systemic diseases with ophthalmic manifestations will help us be better physicians for our patients. After looking at the fundus, seeing a high A1c and recognizing the guy's diabetes isn't being adequately managed is important, even as an ophthalmologist. Also, if a patient's other medical problem flares up in the office, we have to act our roles as general physicians once in a while.
  15. TheLesPaul

    TheLesPaul

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    This statement is clearly why you're not qualified to comment on this subject.
  16. MKE2STL

    MKE2STL

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    No, you're right. I see the light now. Physicians need to be well rounded. That's why I think ophthalmologists should complete a 3-year internal medicine residency first, just like cardiology, endocrinology, rheumatology, etc.
  17. The Doctor

    The Doctor EMH Mark I

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    The SDN ophthalmology forum is starting to feel like a 3 am discussion on your psychiatry rotation with a perseverating demented patient crossed with that Star Trek episode where Cap'n Picard and Dr. Crusher are stuck in an endless time loop on the shuttlecraft watching everything blow up over and over... Or was it Janeway and Neelix, I forget.
  18. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor

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    A real Trekkie would know the answer to that.
  19. Visionary

    Visionary Medical Retinologist

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    They like to be called Trekkers now. :D
  20. Visionary

    Visionary Medical Retinologist

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    Because, there have already been ten billion gagillion threads that either started as or devolved into this topic. There's nothing to argue. Both sides are immovable, sort of like a pro-life vs. pro-choice "argument." Pointless. Neither side will convince the other of anything. It always ends up as name-calling and such. How about we discuss something worthwhile?
  21. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Dr. Elder you are back??? Welcome back.

    True, but the scope of practice of optometry varies from state to state. So in some states ODs can treat certain things while in others they cannot do so, so they must refer by law. As KHE stated in the past I also agree that ODs are in fact over trained for what they actually do so if the scope of practice followed the training then there wouldn't be so many referrals. Also, I do not see OMDs as any kind of technicians. Presently, they are better trained than ODs but I believe the traditional training system can be augmented by having a more direct path to eye care.

    Let me show you a parallel:

    1) MD graduate --> General surgery residency (5 years) --> Vascular surgery fellowship (2 years)
    2) MD graduate --> Vascular surgery residency (5 years)

    Both come to the same end point but one route is more direct and saves taxpayers two years of training along with gaining 2 years of time practicing (theoretically) so it is better for society in the end.
  22. JMK2005

    JMK2005 Member

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    Shnurek... what year optometry student are you?
  23. Visionary

    Visionary Medical Retinologist

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    He's a first year, but he's at one of the top optometry schools in the world, don't you know? That means he know more than the rest of us.
  24. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom

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    Wow I didn't realize that... first year in opto school? At that point you don't even know what you're not going to learn in your education.
  25. mclem222

    mclem222

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    I did hear about a current lawsuit in Oklahoma about an OD who did 8-10 repeat ALTs on a patients eye..the patients eye pressure trickled up to 30 over several years and went blind..not sure why he didnt refer it out...Not to mention,, why he would try to do repeat ALTs on the same eye...idiot...
  26. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom

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    Source?
  27. east

    east

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    I heard about this one really stupid optometrist once...man he was so stupid...what an idiot. It just goes to show how stupid all optometrists are.
  28. LightBox

    LightBox

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    $$$$$ makes you do dumb things... oh, and ego too :(
  29. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Ya, I heard about this one stupid ophthalmologist that exploded an eyeball. I guess that means that every ophthalmologist doesn't know what they are doing and will eventually explode an eyeball. O ya, and another one that did cataract surgery on a 20/25 eye that suffered a detached retina post-op and went to hand motion. I guess its all about $$$$ and ego :(

    O ya and optometrists are really stupid. They can Rx orals in 47 states, Rx pain medications in 43 states and do injections in 36 and yet their average malpractice insurance is ~$500. Man they must be such a huge liability since they do not know what they are doing.
  30. LightBox

    LightBox

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    You aren't exactly representing your profession well. Maybe spend a bit less time on the forums?
  31. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    It won't change your opinion or any other OMDs. I frankly don't care if you haven't noticed already.
  32. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom

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    :laugh: I love your stats

    How many of those numbers are because you can prescribe oral agents such as NSAIDS/Tylenol and you can give injectables like epinephrine during an anaphlyactic crisis?
  33. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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