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Hpsp Faq

Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by Homunculus, 04.26.04.

  1. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator Moderator

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    (courtesy Texdrake)

    FAQ by Lt. Ellenbecker

    1. What are the benefits?

    Monthly Stipend of roughly $600 every 2 weeks for 21 pay periods + 3 pay periods at rank pay (2nd Lt) for completion of yearly ADT training

    Total Yearly Pay in School (approximate): $12,600 + $3,800 = $16,400 after taxes

    All Books, Fees, and Tuition to the medical school of your choice paid

    Adventure, jazz, props from the public, a nifty uniform, and the sense of pride

    Rank of 2Lt while in school and promotion to Captain upon graduation. Almost all military physicians make Major before their commitment is up.

    2. What are the requirements?

    Pass Physical Fitness standards

    Enroll in an accredited US medical school

    apply and be selected (automatic acceptance is 3.5 GPA and 29 MCAT)

    3. What is the payback?

    One year of service per year of scholarship received. Military residencies do count as payback HOWEVER, you also accrue one year of payback for each year of residency after your FYGME year. In other words you can complete one extra year of residency past your level of commitment without incurring more time. (4 year scholarship recipients can do 5 years of post grad training without accruing more time)

    In most cases one must complete their internship (FYGME in military lingo) year with the military

    One must apply to military residencies and if selected must take that residency. If one is not available in your field or you are not selected you will be deferred to a civilian residency.

    4. What will I make as a physician in the military?


    These are new figures calculated as of 2005 for a 4 year scholarship. I have factored in the cost of medical school education, stipend amount, and interest avoided to come up with a true scholarship value. This will then be calculated into what you receive in pay over the lifetime of your commitment. Pay is fairly comparable for the fields of FP, PEDS, and IM. ER is not far behind.


    Scholarship Value

    Medical School Education Loans Saved * 4 years: $154,000
    Interest Saved: $25,000
    Stipend Pay * 4 years: $65,000

    Total Scholarship Value (4 years): $244,000 (61K per year of commitment)


    Military Pay

    Pay: 46K (Captain)
    BAH: 10k (housing allowance)
    BAS: 2K (food allowance)
    VSP: 5K (specialty pay based on years)
    BCP: 2.5K (board certification pay)
    MASP: 15K (flat pay given to all doctors)
    ISP: 13.5K (independent specialty pay based on specialty (FP or IM))

    Total Military Pay yearly: $94,000

    Avg. Malpractice Saving (FP & IM): $12,000

    Yearly Compensation for 4 year commitment: $167,000
    (Military Pay + Malpractice Savings + Scholarship Value)
    (I did not take into account that a portion is not taxed)


    Comparisons

    Average starting salary for IM – Malpractice: $155,000 (after 3 years 172K)
    Average Starting salary for FP – Malpractice: $135,000 (after 3 years 151K)


    Military Pay Post-Commitment

    After commitment is up, one looses the loan advantage and equivalent pay drops to about $106,000 per year.


    Retirement?

    Military retirement is 0% vested until 20 years, after which it becomes fully vested at ½ base salary (add 2.5% for each additional year up to mandatory retirement at 30 years). Most physicians that choose to stay till retirement will be Lt. Colonels. This means a yearly retirement pay of about $30-$35,000 plus lifetime healthcare benefits.

    Time in school is considered IRR butt does NOT count toward retirement.

    5. What will I make as a resident?
    A lot more....the average civilian resident makes 35-40K

    1st year (FYGME): Base Pay + BAH + BAS + 100 monthly for VSP = 59K

    Residents: Base Pay + BAH + BAS + full VSP = 63K

    6. Physical Standards

    You must meet officer height and weight requirements for all 3 branches to get the scholarship and periodically while in the military. The air force also has a PT test as part of the selection process. Each service does height/weight different.

    The Army gives you two chances. First is height/weight. If you don't meet requirements then they measure hip and neck circumference and use some quirky formula.

    As best I can tell the height/weight requirements for an army officer is 18 lbs above ideal body weight for those under 27 years of age.

    Women, Ideal Body Weight is = 105 + (5 * the # of inches above 5 feet tall)
    Men, Ideal Body Weight is = 106 + (6 * the # of inches above 5 feet tall)

    Example: 5’10” Male = 106+60+18 = 184.

    7. Where will I do residencies/rotations?


    http://www.mods.army.mil/MedicalEducation/

    8. Where can I get more info about HPSP and applying?

    The Best Site for unbiased HPSP info is http://lukeballard.tripod.com/HPSP.html

    9. Why the Army? Or why not?

    Why did I select the Army? Several reasons actually. I have family history in the Army which made me lean one way, but the Army has a lot more scholarships and residencies then the other branches. I applied later in the year so my best shot was in the Army. I have found the Air Force to be equally appealing if you can apply early enough. I felt that if I did a civilian residency it would be harder to re-enter the military world and work off my commitment. The Navy had some drawbacks for me personally, mainly in the form of the required GMO tour and the extended deployments, but a few actually like this. Not to mention the Navy has great base locations. I think branch of service is more a personal choice than anything else.

    10. Is the four year obligation really only four years, or can a "stop-loss" order keep you in much longer? When does my commitment really end?

    A stop-loss order in a time of war could keep you in, however it is unlikely and they tend not to keep you in for to long under those circumstances.

    All current military contracts are 8 years in length. In the case of a 4 years scholarship, ones contract would be for 4 years active duty and 4 years inactive ready reserve (IRR). While HPSP students are IRR, their time does NOT count. If a student did a military residency in FP (3 years) and then paid back his/her commitment (4 years), they would still have one year of IRR.

    11. Assuming a four year obligation after residency, how many times can they make you move (not counting a deployment, of course)?

    At most I would think 3 or 4. A necessary move for residency, maybe a couple during your commitment time and possibly a different site for you internship year.

    12. If HPSP students are in the reserves during medical school, can they be called up (in the event of a conflict, for instance) even though they have not completed their medical education for regular reserve duty?

    NO. Under no way can you be pulled out of school or your 1st year of residency (the internship), if we were at war and it was a big one, you could be pulled out after that and before you finish residency. This WAS NOT done during the war in Iraq. HSPS students are IRR not active reserves.

    13. State School, private school, or daddy's pocket?


    You should not take the scholarship for just the money. You will regret it. You must have a desire to serve or a curiosity to serve in the military. The military is not for everyone. That being said, you will regret taking this scholarship if you are going to a state school (or any medical school costing under 15K a year). The money you will make early in your career would easily offset such a cheap education loan. You will feel like you are being ripped off royally.

    14. What about after graduation?

    The military requires that you apply for a military internship year (FYGME). If you are selected for FYGME you must do it. Also most people ARE selected. Your FYGME will either be in your field of choice (possibly fast tracked into a residency) or done as a traditional rotating intership year.

    The military requires that you apply to 3-5 military residencies during your 4th year of medical school, if you don't match in your field you can defer out and do a civilian residency after your FYGME year. If you do match you must accept.

    Many military residencies are a little bit less intense (more book time, but you see a little less). You also get paid about 20K more per year in the military.

    If you don't match after your FYGME year you are automatically deffered, the military will not make you train in a field you don't want to.

    Some people choose to get out as quickly as possible by delaying their residency and completing the rest of their commitment as a GMO. This of course delays your training quite a bit and pays more than a resident, but not a bunch. It does get you out quicker though. Be advised that if you take this option it may be difficult to land a civilian residency in a specialty field.
    __________________
  2. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator Moderator

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    (courtesy r90t)

    The navy's biggest "drawback" in medical education is the GMO tour(s).

    The problems with this is...you do your internship, then an operational tour rather than continuing through residency. If you do a military residency after a GMO tour, you will be in longer than 4 years, i.e. the payback time for HPSP. Also, some people feel that you don't have enough knowledge to function independently post internship. We are credentialed to do a finite amount of procedures prior to going to sea by our operational commanders. Army and AF may be different, but navy doesn't have a bunch of cowboys trying to do a general surgery on board a destoyer.

    The good points for the GMO tour. You are operational and you see what the hardships are for your sailors. The stressors of 2 eight month back to back deployments are great. You will gain an understanding of problems people develop, both mental and physical. Your GME choices often change. The majority of my friends who did a GMO changed their prefererce for residency selection. Usually, they got married, had kids, or some other major event and did not want to spend the next 4 years of their life chained to a ward or OR. Family time overrode work time. It is also a good break from training to recharge.

    I will assume that AF, Army and USN all turn out the same quality of physicians from their teaching programs.

    The navy, IMO, has nicer places to be stationed than the other services. Most of our real estate is coastal.
  3. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator Moderator

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    (courtesy bobbyseal)

    Here are some links that may help people out there who are with the Navy.

    Link for applying to get orders (AT)
    https://nows.cnrf.navy.mil/nrows/

    Pay information
    http://www.dfas.mil/

    Medical Corps Detailer
    http://www.persnet.navy.mil/pers4415/medical_corps.htm

    Naval Medical Education and Training Command
    http://nshs.med.navy.mil/Professional Development Programs.htm

    Navy Pay Calculator and Retirement Calculator (No more sifting through pay tables!!!)
    http://www.staynavy.navy.mil/

    Naval Medical Center Portsmouth
    http://www-nmcp.med.navy.mil/

    Naval Medical Center San Diego
    http://www-nmcsd.med.navy.mil/

    National Naval Medical Center Bethesda
    http://www.bethesda.med.navy.mil/

    Navy Sports (Spanking Army on a yearly basis!)
    http://www.navysports.com/
  4. Cerberus

    Cerberus Heroic Necromancer

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  5. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator Moderator

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    here's one with pretty much all the army hospitals that have training programs-- just click one the "links" link :)

    http://www.mods.army.mil/MedicalEducation/
  6. haujun

    haujun

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    One more requirment like any other military officer, you must apply and get a security clearance.
  7. MarkL

    MarkL Junior Member

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    That is some great information. Out of curiousity, when in HSPS do you have to perform a quarterly APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test), and if you do, what is the minimum score you can achieve to maintain contract? Are you required to attend Field Training Exercises (FTXs), similar to an Army ROTC program?

    Thanks for the great info--
  8. rtmcad2319

    rtmcad2319 Senior Member

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    Is the scholarship competitive or as long as you meet the req you're in?
  9. mercutio99

    mercutio99 Junior Member

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    This question may be misplaced, but here goes...

    Is tax removed from your HPSP stipend??? If so, what is the monthly net payment approximately?

    Thanks!
  10. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    HPSP Scholarship Details and Career Counseling

    Eight years ago I accepted a 3 year HPSP scholarship in the Army. I am currently deployed to Afghanistan and have about 18 months left on my commitment. About seven years ago I wrote a HPSP Guide for this site (still in use!). This is my revision as well as some points to my career that may influence your decision at the end

    1. The pay

    Signing bonus of $20,000. (variable based on need, may go down as war's slow down)

    Monthly stipend of $2000 a month for 10 and ½ months per year

    2nd Lieutenant pay of $2800 a month for 1 and ½ months per year

    Total Pre-active duty pay: $121,000 (When I joined in 2002 it was only $66,000!)

    All Books, Fees, and Tuition to the medical school of your choice in the USA or Puerto Rico

    Adventure, jazz, props from the public, a nifty uniform, and the sense of pride

    Rank of 2nd Lieutenant while in school and promotion to Captain upon graduation. Promotion to Major at end of 6th year of active duty.

    One thing I do not agree with but that is notable is that those doing a civilian residency receive "years of service" credit while in Residency. So basically you can do a 5 year civilian residency and then work one year in the Army and be promoted to Major....seems kinda wrong to me but it keeps the pay scale in line for those doctors.


    2. What are the requirements?


    Pass Physical Fitness and weight standards, be eligible to be commissioned as an officer in the military, enroll in an accredited medical school, apply and be selected (automatic acceptance in for Army is 3.5 GPA and 29 MCAT)

    3. What is the payback?

    One year of service per year of scholarship received. Military residencies do count as payback, however, you also accrue one year of payback for each year of residency after your FYGME (Internship) year. In other words you can complete one extra year of residency past your level of commitment without incurring more time. (4 year scholarship recipients can do 5 years of post grad training without accruing more time). Also if you do a civilian residency you payback will not start until you start on active duty.

    4. What will I make as a physician in the military?


    These are new figures calculated as of 2011 for a 4 year scholarship. I have factored in the cost of medical school education, stipend, bonus, and interest to attain a scholarship value.

    Scholarship Value

    Medical School Education Loans Saved * 4 years: $160,000
    Interest Saved: $29,000
    Pre-Residency Pay: $121,000

    Total Scholarship Value (4 years): $310,000 (about 77.5K per year of commitment)

    Military Pay (average stateside)

    Pay: 44.5K (Captain)
    BAH: 12K (housing allowance)
    BAS: 2.5K (food allowance)
    VSP: 5K (specialty pay based on years)
    BCP: 2.5K (board certification pay)
    MASP: 15K (flat pay given to all doctors)
    ISP: 20K (independent specialty pay based on specialty: Family Medicine)
    30 days paid vacation and free health/dental/vision

    Yearly Pay as a Practitioner: $101,000

    Yearly Compensation as a Practitioner for 4 year commitment: $178,500
    (Military Pay + Scholarship Value/4 years)

    Average Starting salary for a civilian FP: $135,000

    If you choose to stay in the military there are bonuses for resigning that significantly improve your pay however they require multi-year commitments. Currently a four year commitment for a family doctor signed AFTER your initial commitment is worth $36,000 annually.

    Pay is pretty competitive for primary care, for specialists it is not even close. A cardiologist in the Army can expect to make at most about $200k. In the civilian side its closer to $300K

    5. What will I make as a resident?

    Yearly Pay as a Resident: $63,500 (No ISP, MASP, or BCP)

    Average pay for civilian family medicine resident - $43,000

    You receive 30 days vacation yearly as well but most programs limit you to taking 15-20 days a year while a resident

    6. Physical Standards

    You must meet height and weight requirements to get the scholarship and periodically while in the military. The Air Force also has a PT test as part of the selection process. Each service does height/weight different. You can look up the different services charts on Google. All services are getting stricter about physical fitness standards of docs and residents.

    7. Where will I do residencies/rotations?

    Really depends on which service you select. However I strongly suggest that you do a rotation in the specialty you desire at your top location choice. Most Navy and some Air force candidates will be required to do GMO/Flight Surgeon tours after their internship (2-3 years) and before residency. You can gain valuable experience but personally I hate this idea. The army really only does this if you switch specialties and their are no residency spots available in the specialty you want. At the end of your internship you will know just enough to kill somebody well and not enough to catch what is really important. I personally believe GMO's do not have enough knowledge to be adequate physicians. Of note, if you chose to get out after you serve your time as a GMO (if your contract is up), it may be harder to get a civilian residency as you are so far removed from your internship and schooling.

    8. Where can I get more info about HPSP and applying?

    The Best Site for unbiased HPSP info is Luke Ballard's site: Google Luke Ballard HPSP

    9. Is the four year obligation really only four years, or can a "stop-loss" order keep you in much longer? When does my commitment really end?

    A stop-loss order in a time of war could keep you in, however it is highly unlikely given back-last over previous use.

    10. Assuming a four year obligation after residency, how many times can they make you move (not counting a deployment, of course)?

    Twice after residency. Unless you are really unlucky. A stateside tour is 2-4 years. Overseas tours are 2 years if you don't have family and 3 years if you do.

    11. Since HPSP students are in the reserves during medical school, can they be called up even though they have not completed their medical education for regular reserve duty?

    No. Under no way can you be pulled out of school or your 1st year of residency.

    12. State School, private school, or daddy's pocket?

    You should not take the scholarship for just the money. You will regret it. You must have a desire to serve in the military. The military is not for everyone. That being said, you will regret taking this scholarship if you are going to a medical school that costs less than 20K a year. The money you will make early in your career would easily offset such a cheap education loan.

    13. What about after graduation?

    The military requires that you apply for a military internship year (FYGME). Nearly everyone will do a military internship. Your FYGME will either be in your field of choice (possibly fast tracked into a residency) or done as a traditional rotating internship year.

    The military requires that you apply to 3-5 military residencies during your 4th year of medical school and if you match (most likely) you will be required to accept. If you don't match in your field you can defer out and do a civilian residency.

    14. Retirement

    Military retirement is 0% vested until 20 years, after which it becomes fully vested at ½ base salary. Most physicians that choose to stay till retirement will be Lt. Colonels. This means a yearly retirement pay of about $35,000 plus lifetime healthcare benefits. There is however talk of modifying the retirement pay (not in ways that will be better). Retirement is pretty good if you stay 20 years as you can still get another job however you HAVE to finish 20 years to get anything. That to me is a big drawback.

    15. Why the Army?

    Why did I select the Army? Several reasons actually. I have family history in the Army which made me lean one way, but the Army has a lot more scholarships and residencies then the other branches as well. I applied later in the year so my best shot was in the Army. The Navy had some drawbacks for me, mainly in the form of the required GMO tour. The Navy and Air Force arguably have better residency and base locations and have shorter deployments. I think branch of service is more a personal choice than anything else. However if I had the opportunity to make my selection again I would probably choose the Air Force.

    16. What has my career been like so far (Army Family Medicine)?

    I completed medical school in May of 2006 and 5 days later moved to Hawaii to begin my residency at Tripler Army Medical Center. Hawaii isn't a bad place to do a residency. I enjoyed my non-working time there and work was tolerable. Tripler is a major medical center so as a family resident I was a little bit disadvantaged when it came to procedures and learning in some of the departments as they tend to teach their own residents first. A medical center does though usually provide a nicer call schedule in 2nd and 3rd year than a hospital with only family medicine residents would. Overall my experience was like most residencies. I would say on a whole that we probably had a smaller inpatient population then some civilian residencies yet we still saw quite a bit of pathology.

    Each specialty and branch treats your first assignment differently. For my specialty, we are interviewed about where we are from, where we would like to go, and what is most important to us (i.e. location, clinic job, hospital job, unit based job). My wife and I were leaning towards leaving the military and felt that we would only get one shot at living overseas so I volunteered for Germany however I was insistent on going to clinic as I felt a unit job wouldn't provide the continued learning I felt I needed leaving residency. The interviewer then weeds through all the candidates and tries to match you as best as he can to a future assignment. Not everyone gets their top choice, but the guy actually does a pretty good job. If you are good candidate (chief resident, high board scores, former military) or know how to work the system you can sometimes help the process along. In my case, contacting the commander where I wanted to go and being chief resident helped me get the particular base in Germany I wanted. Prior to going to Germany I had to complete OBLC in San Antonio as I wasn't able to do so between my 1st and 2nd year of medical school. They no longer offer waivers for this course. OBLC was a complete was of time considering I had been in the army for 3 years and most of the information is geared toward medical platoon leaders, not doctors. You will learn the military finds interesting ways to waste your time. Also never, ever believe anything anyone tells you about your career. Get EVERYTHING in writing. I have had several disappointments because I was misled by others along the way.

    In Germany I took over doing primary care and procedures. Military medicine takes some getting used to but once you get it down it can be pretty enjoyable. About 6 months after I arrived in Germany I got orders to deploy with a unit in Germany (2/2 SCR) to Afghanistan. If possible they will have you attend their 3-4 week train-up held in Germany, Louisiana, or California about 3 months prior to your deployment. As a physician you are required to report to your unit (usually not located at the same base as you) about a month prior to your deployment and they can keep you for up to 3 months after. Most units however release you within two weeks. If you are joining the Army you can count on deploying for 6-12 months within one year of graduation from residency and because your unit often isn't co-located with you, your deployments are actually about two months longer than the rest of the unit. There are plans to eventually shorten army deployments to 9 months.

    The only nice thing about deployment is pay. Most of your pay (except bonuses) is tax free while deployed and you receive several other pays like family separation pay ($250/mo), hazardous location pay ($100/mo), combat pay ($225/mo) and per diem ($3.50/day). In all it means that while deployed I am making about $1600 more a month after taxes.

    A few weeks after my deployment I returned to my home clinic (Wiesbaden, Germany). I will be promoted to Major at the 6 year mark (June 2012. I may become the medical director there within about 6-8 months which should provide some good experience while I finish the remainder of my commitment. I have no desire to stay in the military past my commitment which ends September of 2012.

    17. Would I do it Again?

    That's a really hard decision to make. There are a lot of variables.
    First there is the money. The scholarship is worth twice what it was when I joined (we had no bonus and were paid $600 less a month). The military will pay you at least $20,000 more a year in residency than the civilian side. At the same time they get money back during your initial commitment. They will pay you at least $35,000 less (as a family doctor) per year then you would make as a civilian. That's over $120,000 in lost pay. However you add in the scholarship value and the extra pay in residency and you do come out significantly ahead.

    Second is lifestyle. I would likely have never had the opportunity to live in Hawaii or Germany had I not joined. I have visited a lot of Europe for very cheap due to living there. The army has great free healthcare and provides a lot of discounts on many things. That being said, if you were unhappy with your job, your co-workers, or your lifestyle in the civilian side, you could pack up and move. That is not an option in the military. I likely would not be happy with the lifestyle the army has provided me if I had done my residency in Georgia (my last choice) and had my first assignment in Fort Polk (Middle of nowhere Louisiana). You don't always have a lot of control over this.

    Third, you should consider family. For the most part the Army provides fairly well for families but that doesn't make it easy. It is very hard for spouses to find jobs overseas or to uproot their job or educational objectives every few years. For me, family is the most important thing. My wife and I had our first child shortly after we arrived in Germany and I had to leave him for a year when he was 8 months old. That has been very hard. I have no desire to leave my wife and child again for this length of time. Deployments are long and difficult. We have weathered the storm but not everyone does.

    Finally, think about what you want in a career. I have 18 months left in the military but I already have had a few civilian job offers that I really wish I could take right now. I instead have to patiently wait and hope they will still be there when my commitment is up. Army medicine is fun for me. Army politics and posturing is not. I have no doubt that I will enjoy my medical career more outside the military then I have inside the military.
    Would I do it all again? I don't know. For today's offer maybe. Given the offer I had, probably not. The bonus would have helped a lot and my stipend was so low I had to take additional loans just to make rent. I am happy that I took a 3 year scholarship as well instead of a four year given that I now want to get out. Also if I did it over I would have joined the Air Force instead which offers shorter deployments and better base locations (although fewer training sites). I loved Hawaii and really like Germany but I will never get this year back with my son.
    Last edited: 07.06.11
  11. mercutio99

    mercutio99 Junior Member

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    Thanks texdrake.

    I figured it was. I may get more or less taken off for taxes, but that gives me an idea.

    Thanks!
  12. Pediatron47

    Pediatron47 Junior Member

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    BS.

    A first year medical student reservist here at UCSD was recently deployed to Iraq.
  13. UseUrHeadFred

    UseUrHeadFred Oh no! It's a Wumpus!

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    Was s/he HPSP? No. Was s/he in the Reserves? Yes. Is HPSP the same as being in the reserves? No.

    Study before calling BS, Mr. or Mrs. Rude.
  14. Neuronix

    Neuronix Super Corgi Away! Administrator SDN Senior Moderator SDN Advisor

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    Speaking of reserves, with Army HPSP for all four years of medical school, how long is the reserve service obligation after residency and active duty?
  15. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    All current day military contracts are 8 years. So I imagine that if you were 4 years IRR (as in school) and four years payback, plus residency that you would be done at the end of your commitment.
  16. Neuronix

    Neuronix Super Corgi Away! Administrator SDN Senior Moderator SDN Advisor

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    Ah, I see. Well, the time spent in medical school with HPSP (at least Army) does NOT count towards reserve time, only in residency. I also believe that your required service also does not count towards reserve time. Both of these according to the HPSP Handbook Highlights thread. So, it would be four years in the reserves considering a four year residency, no fellowship, and no extra time spent beyond your commitment as full-time military.
  17. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    It is correct that your time in medical school doesn't count, but with a four year scholarship you would owe 4 years payback. Assuming you do a military residency (the shortest residencies are 3 years) you would accrue 7 years just getting through residency and committment. So you would only have one year of IRR after that. The contract is for 8 total years. Any combination of combined and IRR. So if you took a 4 year scholarship, 1 year of FYGME and a civilian residency you would have 3 total years of IRR....after your commitment was up.
  18. no-see-um

    no-see-um Bindaas

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    How selective is this scholarship? And, is there an MCAT score requirement?
  19. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    I would say it isn't easy to get, but it isn't hard either. If you have decent numbers you will get it if you want it. Getting into medical school is the hard part.

    There is no MCAT requirement that I know of, but there is automatic acceptance which I belive is a 3.3 GPA and a 29 MCAT
  20. SFAJess

    SFAJess

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    I have scheduled a medical exam and an interview for the Army HPSP for next week? What exactly will they do during the medical exam and what kinds of questions will they ask during the interview?

    Are they going to be checking my ideal body weight? Because by the calculations given by the OP, I'm about 30 lbs over. I don't think I'm fat at all...I wear a size 6 and I'm pretty thin! I'm scared now! :scared:

    Thanks for any help anybody can provide me with! :)

    EDIT: Oops!! I missed the multiplying factor of 5 when I did the calculation. Apparently, I'm underweight by that calculation. Whew!
  21. sumfratrisamor

    sumfratrisamor Registured User

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    Automatic acceptance 3.5 GPA, 29 MCAT.
  22. KerleyB

    KerleyB Member

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    the medical exam.... get ready to feel like government property for the first time. i did mine at a meps station, and they parade you around from station to station (sometimes in your underware). it is totally painless, but it takes entirely too long (also something to get used to in the army), and as i said you may feel like government property.

    the scholarship is still worth it, despite the hassels etc.
  23. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    Not to tough, you do some flexibility stuff, they measure you and do a standard office physical. The army doesn't use Ideal Body Weight...use my formula at the top, that will get you pretty close....
  24. passin'gas

    passin'gas Registered Baadasssss

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    Clarification: Your time in the inactive reserve during medical school does not count towards your reserve time obligation. Neither does your time in the reserve during residency, either in a civilian residency program or military program.
  25. Mirror Form

    Mirror Form Thyroid Storm

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    Are you sure? I'm fairly certain that doing a military resideny will count toward your IRR time, since it's active duty and technically counts as payback (although you also accrue time simultaneously).

    So if you sign up for a four year contract (hence also owe an additional 4 years IRR), and then do a 4 year military residency, you'll come out of residency still owing 4 years active duty, but no longer owing any additional IRR time beyond that.
  26. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    that's how I understand it as well
  27. passin'gas

    passin'gas Registered Baadasssss

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    I'll double check my copy of the contract that I signed, but my understanding is different. I think that in light of the current atmosphere it's best to know exactly what your committment is. It's possible that the IRR time in residency counts towards your committment, but I'd have to look into it.
  28. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    I suppose your contract could be different, but I know that my time spent in residency will count as IRR if I do a military residency. For instance my recruiter and I broke down the contract. I have a three year deal, assuming a 3 year residency and 3 years payback, I will still have 2 years IRR when I finish.

    My big problem now is that I have ballooned up to 192lbs and need to 181 or under. (Insert Fat @ss remark here). So I got some weight to lose before ADT, need to be 175 or so I suppose.
  29. dry dre

    dry dre All hat, no cattle

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    Suppose your are 100% sure military medicine is for you and you are in med school or will start next year:

    Sign up for the FAP (Financial Assistance Program) after being accepted to residency (as a 4th year med student). The benefits:

    - Choose the specialty and civilian residency program of your choice just like civilian medical students. No military match.

    - Get paid $41k+ per year from the service while in residency (in addition to your $40-$48k a year from your civilian residency program)

    - Be more financially sound in residency (net $80-$90K per year). You will have to make student loan payments, for a student with $200k of debt this is about $900 a month.

    - Understand that $900 a month isn't much to any physician, and will be peanuts in 20 years (even less in your 29th year of repayment).

    - Enter the fleet directly fully medically trained in the specialty of your choice thus avoiding GMO tours etc. Understand that you may be called up during residency, but not as likely depending on specialty.

    - Maintain the choice to NOT enter the service after 4 years of med school. Maintain the choice to enter the active reserves with significant loan repayment available. Maintain the choice to serve your country as a civilian physician with the VA etc.

    I'm not suggesting to stay away from military medicine, but programs like the FAP allow you 4 more years to make certain military medicine is for you. If you still enter, I think you will be thankful that you kept your options open, and you will have lost nothing.
  30. DaveB

    DaveB Slave to The Man

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    Actually, if you are in the FAP, you can't get called up during residency and I don't think that you quite get paid $41K/year (although I know next to nothing about FAP). However, I think you bring up great points.... going about things this way is far superior to HPSP.
  31. dry dre

    dry dre All hat, no cattle

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    FAP pay currently $40,909. See http://www.navy.com/healthcare/physicians

    You *always* run the risk of being called up once you're on the books. While the likelihood may be low, it can happen, so I mentioned the possibility. I once worked with a physician who was pulled out of EM residency to go to Iraq 1.
  32. aatrek

    aatrek Member

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    HI all..
    I am just finishing my firth year of gen surg in FAP program. I can tell you from my own experiance (being in FAP program at a time in great depolyment) and from knowing many people in the cammand struture in the USN, being depolyed out of FAP is virtually an act of god... In fact its never happened! Can it happen? well, I guess some people claim that they have seen god.. so I guess its possiable.. but nothing to worry about... in my book anyway..

    please feel free to ask me any questions about FAP.. I have reseached it more than most... so shoot away.

    Have a great day
    A.
  33. jeepnbeep

    jeepnbeep Junior Member

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    I am considering going in the Army and be a psychiatrist.

    Although, medicine has been my primary choice of career, I was intimidated by cutting up a cadaver. Therefore, as a result, I have changed my degrees and career paths. Now, that I am a bit older I feel that being in the Army (I was prior service) and be a psychiatrist is what I want to do.

    How can I be guaranteed that I won't be sick call doctor instead? For those who have recently gone to the program, please give me any pointers.

    I have been thinking about this program now for a few years. Maybe if I know what to expect, I won't be as intimidated. As far as being a soldier or the possibility of deploying, I am ready for that.

    Any feedback will be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Beep
  34. surfingD.O.

    surfingD.O. Junior Member

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    I read this on another thread, and I guess it's from the Army handbook. Does this mean that during your fourth year they could make you go overseas and serve in the military. Thanks

    ***********4th-year medical students must: apply to the Army First Year of Graduate Medical Education (FYGME) and participate on active duty if selected; and must register for the National Residency Matching Program (NRMP) and withdraw from the NRMP if selected for Army FYGME.**************
  35. jeepnbeep

    jeepnbeep Junior Member

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    It's very possible because the Army is really short on doctors. I know this one Major that got out last year and they called her back in to serve active duty. Fortunately, she didn't have to go back to Iraq again. At least, not for now.

    Good Luck.
  36. Mirror Form

    Mirror Form Thyroid Storm

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    There's a big difference b/w that and calling up a fourth year med student. I've never heard of any fourth year med student being called up in the history of hpsp.

    The quote that surfingDO is concerned about simply states that one must apply for military internships and accept a military internship position if offered one (and hence be active duty).
  37. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    Misunderstanding.

    There is absolutely no possible way that the military can remove you from training before the end of your FYGME and/or internship year. Its in the contract. They could pull you out though before your residency years.
  38. Trajan

    Trajan Senior Member

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    Also find comfort in knowing that you are absolutely worthless to the military without your MD. THink about it, would you spend over a hundred thousand dollars educating a future doctor and then pull him out just before he finishies a program that is essentially an all-or-nothing endeavor? What could an HPSP student who is not prior service do? Virtually nothing, you don't have any other training!

    Even the Army knows this. Don't worry, you can do that after your intern year.
  39. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    (courtesy Texdrake)

    FAQ by Lt. Ellenbecker

    1. What are the benefits?

    Monthly Stipend of roughly $600 every 2 weeks for 21 pay periods + 3 pay periods at rank pay (2nd Lt) for completion of yearly ADT training

    Total Yearly Pay in School (approximate): $12,600 + $3,800 = $16,400 after taxes

    All Books, Fees, and Tuition to the medical school of your choice paid

    Adventure, jazz, props from the public, a nifty uniform, and the sense of pride

    Rank of 2Lt while in school and promotion to Captain upon graduation. Almost all military physicians make Major before their commitment is up.

    2. What are the requirements?

    Pass Physical Fitness standards

    Enroll in an accredited US medical school

    apply and be selected (automatic acceptance is 3.5 GPA and 29 MCAT)

    3. What is the payback?

    One year of service per year of scholarship received. Military residencies do count as payback HOWEVER, you also accrue one year of payback for each year of residency after your FYGME year. In other words you can complete one extra year of residency past your level of commitment without incurring more time. (4 year scholarship recipients can do 5 years of post grad training without accruing more time)

    In most cases one must complete their internship (FYGME in military lingo) year with the military

    One must apply to military residencies and if selected must take that residency. If one is not available in your field or you are not selected you will be deferred to a civilian residency.

    4. What will I make as a physician in the military?

    These are new figures calculated as of 2005 for a 4 year scholarship. I have factored in the cost of medical school education, stipend amount, and interest avoided to come up with a true scholarship value. This will then be calculated into what you receive in pay over the lifetime of your commitment. Pay is fairly comparable for the fields of FP, PEDS, and IM. ER is not far behind.


    Scholarship Value

    Medical School Education Loans Saved * 4 years: $154,000
    Interest Saved: $25,000
    Stipend Pay * 4 years: $65,000

    Total Scholarship Value (4 years): $244,000 (61K per year of commitment)


    Military Pay

    Pay: 46K (Captain)
    BAH: 10k (housing allowance)
    BAS: 2K (food allowance)
    VSP: 5K (specialty pay based on years)
    BCP: 2.5K (board certification pay)
    MASP: 15K (flat pay given to all doctors)
    ISP: 13.5K (independent specialty pay based on specialty (FP or IM))

    Total Military Pay yearly: $94,000

    Avg. Malpractice Saving (FP & IM): $12,000

    Yearly Compensation for 4 year commitment: $167,000
    (Military Pay + Malpractice Savings + Scholarship Value)
    (I did not take into account that a portion is not taxed)


    Comparisons

    Average starting salary for IM – Malpractice: $155,000 (after 3 years 172K)
    Average Starting salary for FP – Malpractice: $135,000 (after 3 years 151K)


    Military Pay Post-Commitment

    After commitment is up, one looses the loan advantage and equivalent pay drops to about $106,000 per year.


    Retirement?

    Military retirement is 0% vested until 20 years, after which it becomes fully vested at ½ base salary (add 2.5% for each additional year up to mandatory retirement at 30 years). Most physicians that choose to stay till retirement will be Lt. Colonels. This means a yearly retirement pay of about $30-$35,000 plus lifetime healthcare benefits.

    Time in school is considered IRR butt does NOT count toward retirement.

    5. What will I make as a resident?

    A lot more....the average civilian resident makes 35-40K

    1st year (FYGME): Base Pay + BAH + BAS + 100 monthly for VSP = 59K

    Residents: Base Pay + BAH + BAS + full VSP = 63K

    6. Physical Standards

    You must meet officer height and weight requirements for all 3 branches to get the scholarship and periodically while in the military. The air force also has a PT test as part of the selection process. Each service does height/weight different.

    The Army gives you two chances. First is height/weight. If you don't meet requirements then they measure hip and neck circumference and use some quirky formula.

    As best I can tell the height/weight requirements for an army officer is 18 lbs above ideal body weight for those under 27 years of age.

    Women, Ideal Body Weight is = 105 + (5 * the # of inches above 5 feet tall)
    Men, Ideal Body Weight is = 106 + (6 * the # of inches above 5 feet tall)

    Example: 5’10” Male = 106+60+18 = 184.

    7. Where will I do residencies/rotations?

    http://www.mods.army.mil/MedicalEducation/

    8. Where can I get more info about HPSP and applying?

    The Best Site for unbiased HPSP info is http://lukeballard.tripod.com/HPSP.html

    9. Why the Army? Or why not?

    Why did I select the Army? Several reasons actually. I have family history in the Army which made me lean one way, but the Army has a lot more scholarships and residencies then the other branches. I applied later in the year so my best shot was in the Army. I have found the Air Force to be equally appealing if you can apply early enough. I felt that if I did a civilian residency it would be harder to re-enter the military world and work off my commitment. The Navy had some drawbacks for me personally, mainly in the form of the required GMO tour and the extended deployments, but a few actually like this. Not to mention the Navy has great base locations. I think branch of service is more a personal choice than anything else.

    10. Is the four year obligation really only four years, or can a "stop-loss" order keep you in much longer? When does my commitment really end?

    A stop-loss order in a time of war could keep you in, however it is unlikely and they tend not to keep you in for to long under those circumstances.

    All current military contracts are 8 years in length. In the case of a 4 years scholarship, ones contract would be for 4 years active duty and 4 years inactive ready reserve (IRR). While HPSP students are IRR, their time does NOT count. If a student did a military residency in FP (3 years) and then paid back his/her commitment (4 years), they would still have one year of IRR.

    11. Assuming a four year obligation after residency, how many times can they make you move (not counting a deployment, of course)?

    At most I would think 3 or 4. A necessary move for residency, maybe a couple during your commitment time and possibly a different site for you internship year.

    12. If HPSP students are in the reserves during medical school, can they be called up (in the event of a conflict, for instance) even though they have not completed their medical education for regular reserve duty?

    NO. Under no way can you be pulled out of school or your 1st year of residency (the internship), if we were at war and it was a big one, you could be pulled out after that and before you finish residency. This WAS NOT done during the war in Iraq. HSPS students are IRR not active reserves.

    13. State School, private school, or daddy's pocket?

    You should not take the scholarship for just the money. You will regret it. You must have a desire to serve or a curiosity to serve in the military. The military is not for everyone. That being said, you will regret taking this scholarship if you are going to a state school (or any medical school costing under 15K a year). The money you will make early in your career would easily offset such a cheap education loan. You will feel like you are being ripped off royally.

    14. What about after graduation?

    The military requires that you apply for a military internship year (FYGME). If you are selected for FYGME you must do it. Also most people ARE selected. Your FYGME will either be in your field of choice (possibly fast tracked into a residency) or done as a traditional rotating intership year.

    The military requires that you apply to 3-5 military residencies during your 4th year of medical school, if you don't match in your field you can defer out and do a civilian residency after your FYGME year. If you do match you must accept.

    Many military residencies are a little bit less intense (more book time, but you see a little less). You also get paid about 20K more per year in the military.

    If you don't match after your FYGME year you are automatically deffered, the military will not make you train in a field you don't want to.

    Some people choose to get out as quickly as possible by delaying their residency and completing the rest of their commitment as a GMO. This of course delays your training quite a bit and pays more than a resident, but not a bunch. It does get you out quicker though. Be advised that if you take this option it may be difficult to land a civilian residency in a specialty field.
  40. haujun

    haujun

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    Good info. I may be wrong but your retirement info may be incorrect. 24 year credit for 20 year service is for USUHS students. For HPSP students it isn't the case. :( Also each year served after 20 years tranlates into 2.5%. So after 30 years of service I think you get about 75%.
  41. texdrake

    texdrake Stand-Up Philosopher

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    I will make the changes.....this should replace the FAQ at start of this thread.
  42. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator Moderator

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    i'll get it updated and switched around tomorrow.

    --your friendly neighborhood needs his beauty rest caveman
  43. WenfeiX

    WenfeiX Member

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    Hi all,

    I'm considering the HPSP scholarship but haven't actually spoken with a recruiter yet. I'm a little wary of how much objective information I would be able to get out of him or her as compared to people who have actually gone through the experience themselves.

    I will be graduating from college this year (plan to take a year off), have a 36R, 3.9 GPA, so I think that if I applied for the HPSP, I would have a good shot at getting it in whichever branch I would want? My question is - I've heard from my friends (who go to Westpoint, USAFA, and Naval Academy) that females are treated differently in the branches? I know that if I asked recruiters that question, they would have to say, "Absolutely not," but is there any truth to that outside of the academies?

    Are there any female doctors who post on this (or even medical students/residents) who could comment on their experiences, how things work with family planning (what happens if you get pregnant...do you get paid time off and maternity leave?) Also, I know that in the Navy, females are not allowed on submarines - is that true for ships too?

    Please feel free to message me if you have any advice/comments/links to other posts. Since I'm taking a year off, I guess I have a long time to think about this, but it's a huge decision to make, so I'd like to have as much information and time as possible. Thanks so much!
  44. AubreyMaturin

    AubreyMaturin Senior Member

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    I think that you should start a new thread with this topic. You should definitely get some responses , as there are several females who have posted.

    BTW, WOW!!!, your GPA and MCAT are incredible!!! You could probably get a scholarship through some med schools for being really F'n smart. Glad you not in my class :love:
  45. Neuronix

    Neuronix Super Corgi Away! Administrator SDN Senior Moderator SDN Advisor

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    Exactly--you aren't treated any differently in many ways. That means you could be stationed in the middle of nowhere where your spouse has no chance of finding a job and just be expected to deal with being a single parent or away from your kids for years. You will be expected to deploy, despite having young children of your own, unless of course you get pregnant again. On the other hand, if you are pregnant, you are not deployable for a few months after you have your kids, however you can be restationed in the USA if necessary.

    If you want to have a family before you're in your mid-30s and able to get out of your HPSP, don't do it. You need to retain your flexibility and stability in order to have a stable, nuclear family of your own. One exception would be marrying someone in the military, though militaryMD's wife was also a military doc and they were still several hundred miles apart. The other option is to find a man who's willing to sacrifice their own career for yours. Good luck with that one. It will probably be necessary when you have very limited residency location options and then get stationed in the middle of nowhere.
  46. AubreyMaturin

    AubreyMaturin Senior Member

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    I think I may have been misinformed:
    When does your first active duty period, OIS or COT, begin for a 4-year HPSP? Is it the summer before your first year of med school, or is it the summer between the first and second year?

    Does you active duty pay start at this time (during officer training)?
  47. USAF MD '05

    USAF MD '05 Just another dumb ER doc.

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    Most people do their 1st ADT prior to entering school. You do get 45 days of AD pay. Steve
  48. GeoLeoX

    GeoLeoX Ancient

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    Perhaps that is the case in the AF. It is not the case in the Army unless you are at USUHS. That is not to say that you can't go to OBC before you start school, but the vast majority of HPSPers go after their first year.

    Geo
  49. AubreyMaturin

    AubreyMaturin Senior Member

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    How are you supposed to fill an active duty requirement over the summer for 45 days when you don't get summers of in med school? I don't know if it is the same for every med school, but at BU, clinical rotations start with an 11 week rotation in medicine from the beginning of july to the middle of september!!! The fourth year is pretty much the same thing.

    I guess I always assumed that you go summers off. The breaks according to this schedule are a week after about every 12 weeks of clinical rotations. Is this typical? How does this affect AD? It seems like there is no time.
  50. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator Moderator

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    it's like that at many schools-- if you don't have the time available for an ADT, you fulfill your obligation while being at school-- basically you fill out some paperwork and get ADT pay for 45 days and don't do anything special. During your clinical years you don't have to spend a full 45 days-- at my school we had month long blocks, so i would spend 30 on ADT and the other 15 at my school. It's actually pretty easy. Most schools will allow you to substitute a military rotation for one of your required rotations, or you can just do what i imagine most people do and do your ADT's during your electives.


    --your friendly neighborhood full time ADT-ing caveman
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