Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by Homunculus, 04.26.04.
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I believe this is it....but I'm a n-006, so maybe its not
"Time spent in nonmilitary GPE or prior to completion of the professional degree requirements will not be creditable toward satisfying my AFHPSP
RSO. Additionally, time spent following completion of professional degree requirements or prior to completion of the AFHPSP ADO will not be credited
toward satisfying my AFHPSP RSO."
Hmm, that is a very confusing clause you have there. It is not included in my contract, so someone's been playing around in AFPC-land.
Ok, first part references non-military GPE. This stands for Graduate Professional Education. Typically this involves a civilian internship or residency (often deferred) after you complete med school.
They really worded this awkwardly. "Time spent in nonmilitary GPE or prior to completion of professional degree requirements"...sure sounds like they're saying that med school doesn't count.
But this is the best part - "Additionally, time spent following completion of professional degree requirements or prior to completion of the AFHPSP ADO will not be credited toward satisfying my AFHPSP RSO."
Read that a few times over. "Time spent following completion of professional degree requirements...will not be credited toward satisfying my AFHPSP RSO."
Congratulations, buddy. You just signed a contract indenturing yourself to the AF for eternity! Lol, the way they worded it, they just said that they're never going to credit ANY of your time after getting your MD towards satisfying your RSO!
Obviously this is not what they meant, but it sure can be read that way. Here's the rub - what was the total MSO mentioned in your contract? If it's standard, it's 8 years. And they still put you in the IRR while you're in med school, so you're still reserves while on the HPSP. If it were me, I'd have a lawyer look it over and straighten some things out with that contract - many of the things they had you sign on to probably aren't kosher.
This is under Item 18 of the HPSP/FY10 Contract on page 5
"c. Time spent in non-military GPE or CPIP or prior to completion of the professional degree requirements will not be creditable toward satisfying my AFHPSP RSO."
There are a-h clauses under 18 regarding ADO and RSO, but this is the one I was referring to.
Okey-doke, I totally believe that these lines are in your contract. However, they're verrrry sketchy.
For instance, compare this to ROTC training in college, which is sort of similar to the HPSP concept. In ROTC, you run around for a few years while the military pays for your college; same deal as HPSP - they pay for your education in exchange for active duty service obligation afterward.
The critical difference though is that you aren't actually commissioned as an officer until your college graduation - this is why your time during ROTC in college doesn't tally towards your 8-year service commitment: you're not really officially "in" military service yet. Once you raise your right hand at the graduation ceremony - bang, your 8 year MSO clock starts.
In HPSP, you're commissioned as an officer BEFORE you graduate med school, typically many years before you graduate. You sign your contract, raise your right hand, pin on some butterbars, the whole kit n' kaboodle. And your 8 year clock starts. And this 8 year clock is a pretty serious thing - all inductions into the armed forces come with a statutory 8-year commitment that's very difficult to muck with legally unless you are SPECIFICALLY acknowledging that you're tacking on more years. They can't just hand-wave away time served in the reserves by having you sign something saying that it "doesn't count." You can fight that when you feel like it.
I've gotta say, they've set this up well for themselves. Getting 4 free extra years from an entire class of doctors...wow, that's tens of millions of dollars' worth of obligation for free. What a bargain. If I were running their personnel department I'd be giving someone a medal right now.
What is meant by this part of the contract is that your IRR clock does not kick in until after you have been on active duty. This prevents those with civilian deferments from eating away at the IRR time. So, you do your deferred residency, complete 4 years of active duty, then you owe 4 in the IRR as a fully trained physician.
Do you suggest doing a civilian or military residency? I know military offers more pay...but what are the other differences? Also, how can i do a deferment if I do decide to go the civilian route?
You can safely assume that civilian deferment will not be an option if you do HPSP regardless of branch.
I think I have a pretty good understanding of the HPSP, my only concern is the residency options. Right now, I'm leaning towards ortho or physical medicine and rehab. I'm likely going to a D.O. school this fall so my chances are probably better at physical medicine and rehab, although it is the smaller specialty. My main question is which army residencies offer this residency program, and are there any statistics regarding what schools (md or do) represent the various residency programs. I'm ok with the army lifestyle and earning less money, I just don't want to spend my career in a specialty i don't want to do, even if it's only for 20 years.
For residency selection, how do the programs look at your board scores (are they as important as civi residencys) and if you're DO should you take the USMLE too or is COMLEX still appropriate?
Unrealted question, but while I have your attention, if my app is going to committee in October, when would I get commissioned?
Does anyone know if prior service preclude's acceptance into the HPSP? I am currently serving active army, enlisted, about 8.5 years of time so far.
I am 31 years old. Though my current job with the Army is amazing, I am not convinced it has much of a future for our post-army life, so I am wanting to change careers to something that 1--I enjoy, and 2--has value to others, and 3--I can work almost anywhere. My current career field in the Army limits me to 3 possible duty stations, and very few career prospects after the Army.
I plan on finishing 20 years or more time of service anyway, so the HPSP sounds perfect for me.
I do already have a bachelors degree, though it is in music. Good GPA, but my science/math experience was limited (1 calculus course, 2 chem, 1 biology... that's about it). I have time to take a few "refresher" courses (let's be honest, I'd like to anyway, as it's been almost 10 years since I have been in school!).
Does anyone know another med school student who is utilizing the HPSP and has been in the active duty military before? I assume, to partake in the scholarship, I would leave active duty service, rejoin as a reserve officer, then continue on as any other HPSP participant. I'd like to know if I can apply for the HPSP before leaving active duty service, then make any decisions from there.
I also have the option of using the post-911 GI bill for med school, I suppose, but I would much rather pass those benefits on to our future child.
It's a unique situation, I know. If any of you know a prior-service, current HPSP med student, please let me know--I'd like to get in touch with that person.
SSG Dean Miller
Yes, such people do exist. One of my classmates and current co-interns (for two more days!) has about 30 years in the Army between enlisted, warrant, and commisioned officer time. I went to OBLC with one Westpoint grad who took HPSP, rather than USUHS. There were actually a handful of other HPSP priors in my platoon in OBLC a few years back (many of them went to USUHS, though). One of my med school classmates was a prior-service MP. Priors in HPSP do exist. Just go ahead and apply for HPSP when you apply for medical school. Let your medical recruiter know what is up, and discuss it with your current CO. If you have any remaining service obligation, that may add some hoops to jump through (may not, I don't have the direct experience to know for certain). Bottom line, there have been plenty of prior service who have used HPSP to become physicians and return to/stay in the military, that should not be the hardest part of your process.
Thank you, psych!
If you still know any of those prior service people, please pass along my contact info. They can email me at [email protected].
Again, probably not that important--I will learn everything I need to learn one way or another--it's just often best to talk to someone who has already been through the process. My biggest question is this:
Will I have to separate from the Army, then apply for HPSP, then basically re-join the Army?
I just learned about USUHS today--about to do the research to compare USUHS and HPSP and figure out what is best for me. My end goal specialty is Ophthalmology.
I took a pulmonary function test today. I had asthma when I was a young child but have not had any problems with it since age 9 or 10. Not even an inhaler. If I pass my PFT, which I am almost certain I did, will everything be okay for the Navy HPSP? I put asthma down because I wanted to be completely honest, but it has not been an issue in my life for almost 20 years, and I would hate to have it keep me out of the service.
Wondering if the HPSP has a program for pharmacy school as well? If so, do you have to wait to be accepted to a school to start applying for the scholarship?
I know the AF does so I would assume the other services also do. I would contact a healthcare recruiter (not the enlisted recruiters) and ask them what you can do to get started. You might need to try to contact s few of them. With the AF they arent usually quick to return calls.
The Army has an HPSP program for PharmD, the only difference is that it only covers the last two years.
i know that in the faqs it says, us med schools,
but will it cover the big four carribian med school,
i'm leaning towards sgu, and would like any insight on this. thank you.
Nope. No carribean schools. Why are you leaning towards the Carribean? Long run, probably not the best choice.
Hey, I left active duty to go to medical school. There is a reg for getting released- BLUF: your first O6 in your CoC needs to sign off on a release memorandum form which is routed through branch. Branch also has to release you. It can literally take days to months for this to occur depending on how proactive you are. Your HPSP packet will not be submitted for final approval until branch has released you. Army HPSP is not hard to get as long as you get released.
So the biggest hurdle is getting that paperwork through to your branch rep. Once that is completed, you resign your comission and get a general discharge, you outprocess, take terminal leave or cash out your leave (they wont transfer it! argh!), show up at your med school, comission into the reserves.
As a timeline, I redeployed Iraq at the end of 2006 and immediately brought up my intentions for med school with my Bn CDR during OER counseling after winter exodus.
If you have time that you still owe for any ROTC/USMA commitment, it just will get suspended when you leave active duty and added into your commitment after med school.
Does anyone know if it is possible and how to go about switching from a 4 year contract to a 3 year contract? Thanks for any help.
No, it is not possible.
Some people choose to get out as quickly as possible by delaying their residency and completing the rest of their commitment as a GMO. This of course delays your training quite a bit and pays more than a resident, but not a bunch. It does get you out quicker though. Be advised that if you take this option it may be difficult to land a civilian residency in a specialty field.
I'm not quite sure that I understand the truth to the last sentence. Wouldn't one be a MORE attractive candidate to civilian residencies with prior GMO experience under the belt?
Unless the exGMO was a total dirtbag , finding a good residency spot should not be an issue. Many of my former internship friends who got out of Navy after paying their time back as GMOs or Flight Surgeons all continued on to good civilian residencies.
Folks have posted, though, that after four years of GMO, some residencies have required folks to repeat intern year. I don't think folks from primary care mentioned this, but other specialties have.
I am a pre med student starting to think about paying for med school. I have been looking at the hpsp as a possibility, and from what i am seeing, the major concern that i would have is not getting the specialty i want, hem/onc, preferably ped hem/onc. this is what it looks like i would have to do if i joined the hpsp program:
graduate med school, then do a military IM residency, complete my 4 year active duty, and then go into the civilian world and try to specialize in hem/onc
please tell me if i have any mistakes here, or if there is an easier way to get where i want to go. also, if, from experience, you think it would not be worth it to do all this and not be a hem/onc until i am 35-40
If you want Ped heme/onc, you would do a peds residency then ped heme/onc.
USNR E-4/HM3 here. I've posted a few times here last year before I was deployed. 2 years active duty time and 2 years SELRES time. My contract runs from 09/11/2006-09/11/2014. I might have to run a chit to drop from my contract early when I graduate with my BS in Bio in spring quarter 2014. Lets say I get out as an E-5 or E-6 with 6 years reserve time and 2 years AD time. Will I be eligible for O-"E" pay status? I thought you have to have a certain amount of time for it to count. How will my prior service factor into retirement and HPSP?
Could someone clarify what payback time will be or time from beginning to end total? Is GMO absolutely required? How does matching into specifc residencies affect my payback time? I currently work in an OR as a surgical assistant and currently believe Im interested in general surgery, EM, or IM. I have done a combat deployment and would not be opposed to FS/DMO/BN Surgeon experience before I continue on to more clinical/patient oriented medicine. I have had my fair share of exposure to Navy/mil-med BS so its a great possibility I may just get out after my payback. I've also considered extended GMO and having operational fun and then getting out and doing a civilian residency and hope I dont have to re-do intern year. Im seriously considering FAP and believe I understand it right that its just residency years +1 correct? Could someone reply with HPSP scenario payback times for the information above? I did do some searching of posts especially made by some of the senior Navy posters by the way. Thanks in advance.
Link to my thread with some more info that may assist you in answering my question:
2) There are multiple discussions relating to payback. A quick search will yield a plethora of results.
I am going to be talking with some recruiters in the next few months and I am wondering how comeptitve the different branches are for the HPSP. I did not do well on the MCAT (26) but have a good GPA (3.78 cumm undergrad and 3.84 grad), a MS degree, and am a current health professional (a registered dietitian in a clinical setting). If I get into a med school than is there a good chance I can get the scholarship, or is it very competitive? I had 1 interview, have 3 interviews in the next month, and am waiting to hear from 2 schools.
The army is not very competitive, and they usually have scholarships this late in the cycle. It is mostly because they have the most scholarships. As far as I know Air Force may not be an option for you because their selection cycle is ending(So I've heard), but it depends how far into your paperwork you are and if you've gone to MEPS. I would not be too concerned, however, and would really talk to a recruiter about what is involved in HPSP, and DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!
If I can give you any advice it's to read these forums and really see what your getting into. I had an excellent experience with the Army giving it to me straight but the Air Force tended to try and sweep certain aspects of HPSP under the rug. Either way start your paperwork ASAP even if your unsure so you get it all started should you decide to accept HPSP. Your stats are highly competitive for the Army and I think you are just a few MCAT points shy of auto acceptance
Also you do not need an acceptance to start applying so start now definitely.
Thanks! I am the most interested in the air force and am meeting with a recruiter in early Jan. He didn't say there weren't any left for this coming year so hopefully I still have a shot. I contacted the Navy and Army also but haven't heard back yet.
Excellent and good luck. I will be rejecting my Air Force scholarship if it comes so that's one more you could potentially get. Also about the Army keep calling...I don't know why but they are very forgetful and don't call back. I had the same experience and kept bugging them, and eventually got through.
I second that. When my recruiter wanted to, he made things move faster than Wonder bread through a goose, and then sometimes weeks would go by and he would be 'out of town'. Keep on them with emails and phone calls; in the military the squeeky wheel gets the oil.
I had a quick question regarding repayment of initial tuition. I just paid a deposit to WVSOM in the amount of $2000. I won't get into my whole sob story/complaint about how this economy sucks and how I just found a job after 6 months as a waiter, but anyway...my question is will the Army pay me back my deposit before I start school if I send in a request? I am really hurting for money, and I know most of the tuition payment, stipend, book payment, etc only comes once you start school. Do I need to until then to get my deposit back?
I want to do some traveling before school starts in my gap year and don't even have the money to buy early plane tickets. I can wait and save of course but the 2k may save me money buying them early.
Thank you for any input on this.
I highly doubt it. The school wont give you that money until after tuition is billed and financial aid is received and the Army doesnt pay the school until they get the tuition bill. So youre probably stuck waiting till school starts to see that $2k. Sorry
No problem. I figured as much. I can double check with the recruiter when I sign the papers in either case. Thank you.
What I was told by my recruiter this last year was that the army will under no circumstances reimburse you for the deposit. The only way to get it back is from the school once they have received the check for the full tuition from the army.
Worth asking your guy, but don't hold your breath
Thank you. I figured as much and I understand where they are coming from. I'll make do but it would have been nice to have that 2k back
I'm not sure about your situation, but when I started med school a few years ago (my deposit was about $100), the school managed to get that back to me. I think they billed the Navy for the cost of my full tuition (in which the $100 was included), and then once that was paid (WAY into the semester), they refunded me my deposit. However, it's not like you can ask the Navy (or Army, or whatever) to pay you that money now. You'll have to wait. But, make sure your school knows that they're supposed to cover all tuition, so that they get billed for that initial deposit.
As said above, at least you will get it back eventually!
I'm currently a first year student. I contacted AF recruiter today. I was told that all 3 years scholarships are filled and gone. I so much wanted it. I should have looked for it earlier
r u applying for 4 year scholarship?
Sorry to hear about them being full already! You could do the repayment program down the road.
Yes, I am applying for a 4 year scholarship. I am meeting with the Navy recruiters the first week of Jan and the AF recruiter the 2nd week of Jan. The army said I can't
do the application until I have an acceptance, and since they have so many HPSP scholarships I am going to wait to meet with them until later in Jan, early Feb. They said the process takes about 3 months, so I am hoping I should be okay for starting in August.
I am in the application process for the Navy HPSP 4-year. About how long can I expect to wait to get an answer after my application is sent to the boards? (It was sent off a month ago).
Hi, I've been accepted to the Air Force HPSP, but after looking at some of these posts I was wondering if someone had more information about the FAP? I am an in-state student attending MSUCOM, so tuition will be about $11,000 per semester, and school will be year round. The HPSP has always been intriguing to me, and right now the possibilities of travel and working in the military seem appealing, but I just don't know if I will feel the same way in ~7years. I'm also very interested in specializing in a OMM/FP residency, and I don't know if the Air Force would restrict that. Thanks to anyone for their input!
I tend to think that anyone who takes HPSP going to a (relatively) less expensive school is making a poor decision. Go to school on loans, figure out what you want to be (and what you realistically can be based on med school performance) and do your residency. If your loans aren't that bad, I'd forgo FAP and just get trained. If you want to go in thereafter, you will be welcomed. If your practice can sustain it, you could look into Guard/Reserve positions. And as to you question about OMM/FP residency-the answer is still the same as the last time you asked: no, the military does not allow for OMM or FM/OMM training. If that is truly an interest, milmed is best put on hold until finished with training.
Thanks for your input, I didn't see your other post so sorry for being repetitive, I've just really been looking for that answer. I really appreciate it.
I have been reading every comment on here all day, and I want to thank you guys for all the information!
I was considering doing the Air Force Hpsp mainly because my father and brother were in the Air Force, and the recruiter gave my class information that made it seem amazing. He said there would be relatively no chance of getting deployed which is my #1 concern. I lived in Saudi Arabia for a year and hated it. If living there sucked, then having to be deployed to some overseas destination for military reasons would be even more miserable. After reading the posts, I'm getting a sense that my class and I were somewhat lied to.
I just got my acceptance last week, and I'm going to a state school. I wanted to do the scholarship for the financial reasons, and I know you all said that shouldn't be the only reason. Considering I'll only be paying in-state tuition, I think I have decided to back out of this whole thing and just go for loans. Now I just need to read up on loans considering I've never taken out any, and I have to figure out how to let my dad down easy . He was really proud to think I was considering the AF. Sorry, dad!
I will say that while financial reasons are not the only reason I took the HPSP scholarship they were the #1 factor. If I were in your shoes going to a state school there's no way I would have taken the scholarship. That being said my school is 50k a year so HPSP helps me quite a bit more than if I were paying 20k a year.
As to the AF, while I have no problem with that branch. I had a terrible experience with my AF HPSP recruiter and opted for the army instead...at least they told me the risks of signing on. AF makes it seem completely win, win...no chance of deployment, no GMO, no relocation. They make it seem like you should be privileged to get their scholarship, and they don't tell you that you did till mid February while the army takes much less time. Most of what they say is blatantly not true, and the AF recruiters aren't physicians so they have no clue what they are talking about half the time IMHO.
It seems like you are making the right choice and good luck to you. I think your dad will be proud of you either way
Thank you for your input I hope he's not too disappointed! And yes, if I were facing a more expensive tuition, I would have just sucked up the 4 years of payback. Good luck to you as well
Is there a post somewhere comparing the pros and cons of different branches?
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