I like optometry. I don't like unemployment. Someone find me an alternative.

[Yozora]

Okay I've read many of the gloom and doom posts on this board, but I still like the idea of being an optometrist. I will explain what attracts me, and hope someone can give some tips for an alternative to this field. Whenever I walk into a hospital and get my eyes checked I think it's a cool job. Friendly laid back doctors, working with cool equipment and it doesn't look too hard to shift dials and ask "1 or 2?"

Some people say that's boring doing the same thing all the time, but honestly I have a fantasy prone personality and want a simple, routine that will let me pursue other interests in my free time. I also want to earn an honest living that brings actual value to society, not like a parasite of society selling widgets or pushing useless paperwork, not as an economic thief, at a low-medium stress job I can walk away from at the end of the day. I am a recently graduated business major.

I have thought about being a nurse or PA, but I've heard the employment chances are dwindling for the former (and I don't like wiping butts, or hanging out in emergency wards when I've visited sick relatives.) In short, I like optometry because it seems clean.

I should also note I don't have an interest in most of medicine. Just reading about disease syndromes make me fret nervously (I seriously clench my fists) and I often have to skip paragraphs when they enter details of suffering or show pictures of horrible mutations.). I also find much of it boring at this point, like I dont care about how lungs function, ligaments, or the abstract diagrams of proteins, much of biology seems like something removed from my day to day life. I can't tinker with what I learn, it's not like how learning the skills to program would also let you make fun things in your free time (like games), or how studying business teaches you to start a company and steal more from people. Its neither practical nor poetic. At least astronomy is cooler than the small things in biology because of all the pretty shiny orbs, the vast mysteries of the cosmos, and the fun science fiction pulp. No offense to doctors, but I have nil interest. Entering a medical area other than eyes would probably be either because I liked the job description, the stability, or the money, but definitely not the subject matter.

Eyes seem to be an exception for me. Eyes have always been the most interesting body part for me to look at (other than certain nether regions due to my natural biology), and I enjoy reading about how the eyes work on Wikipedia, eye diagrams, or drawing pretty irises. I wouldn't mind looking at thousands of eyes and maybe learning to draw them in the process. This field lets you stare at people's faces a lot.

So that's the appeal. Any suggestions? I should note my GPA for my BA was 3.2ish, and I want to move away from Southern California, hopefully abroad to Canada or the UK, or at least someplace with a different culture (I know this part of America and need room to grow) and much, much more nature to look at. I had a case of wanderlust and traveled Asia after I graduated for half a year, and my conclusion was I'd be happier living just about anywhere other than within 100 miles of the Los Angeles. ( There were nicer people abroad, more trees, less concrete jungles on the whole, you can go hiking in the hills and see snow and make discoveries rather than choking on gasoline fumes and seeing infinite blocks of cookie cutter houses, etc.). America is huge though, so I haven't discounted int entirely, and I wouldn't mind trying to live somewhere like Colorado, Washington, or Alaska for a few years.

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[KHE]

Okay I've read many of the gloom and doom posts on this board, but I still like the idea of being an optometrist. I will explain what attracts me, and hope someone can give some tips for an alternative to this field. Whenever I walk into a hospital and get my eyes checked I think it's a cool job. Friendly laid back doctors, working with cool equipment and it doesn't look too hard to shift dials and ask "1 or 2?"

Some people say that's boring doing the same thing all the time, but honestly I have a fantasy prone personality and want a simple, routine that will let me pursue other interests in my free time. I also want to earn an honest living that brings actual value to society, not like a parasite of society selling widgets or pushing useless paperwork, not as an economic thief, at a low-medium stress job I can walk away from at the end of the day. I am a recently graduated business major.

I have thought about being a nurse or PA, but I've heard the employment chances are dwindling for the former (and I don't like wiping butts, or hanging out in emergency wards when I've visited sick relatives.) In short, I like optometry because it seems clean.

I should also note I don't have an interest in most of medicine. Just reading about disease syndromes make me fret nervously (I seriously clench my fists) and I often have to skip paragraphs when they enter details of suffering or show pictures of horrible mutations.). I also find much of it boring at this point, like I dont care about how lungs function, ligaments, or the abstract diagrams of proteins, much of biology seems like something removed from my day to day life. I can't tinker with what I learn, it's not like how learning the skills to program would also let you make fun things in your free time (like games), or how studying business teaches you to start a company and steal more from people. Its neither practical nor poetic. At least astronomy is cooler than the small things in biology because of all the pretty shiny orbs, the vast mysteries of the cosmos, and the fun science fiction pulp. No offense to doctors, but I have nil interest. Entering a medical area other than eyes would probably be either because I liked the job description, the stability, or the money, but definitely not the subject matter.

Eyes seem to be an exception for me. Eyes have always been the most interesting body part for me to look at (other than certain nether regions due to my natural biology), and I enjoy reading about how the eyes work on Wikipedia, eye diagrams, or drawing pretty irises. I wouldn't mind looking at thousands of eyes and maybe learning to draw them in the process. This field lets you stare at people's faces a lot.

So that's the appeal. Any suggestions? I should note my GPA for my BA was 3.2ish, and I want to move away from Southern California, hopefully abroad to Canada or the UK, or at least someplace with a different culture (I know this part of America and need room to grow) and much, much more nature to look at. I had a case of wanderlust and traveled Asia after I graduated for half a year, and my conclusion was I'd be happier living just about anywhere other than within 100 miles of the Los Angeles. ( There were nicer people abroad, more trees, less concrete jungles on the whole, you can go hiking in the hills and see snow and make discoveries rather than choking on gasoline fumes and seeing infinite blocks of cookie cutter houses, etc.). America is huge though, so I haven't discounted int entirely, and I wouldn't mind trying to live somewhere like Colorado, Washington, or Alaska for a few years.

"Because it's clean" and you enjoy "drawing pretty irises" are just about the dumbest reasons in the world to become an optometrist.

Being an optometrist (any clinician) requires a good background in science and scientific method. You also need to have good critical thinking skills and a genuine sense of scientific curiosity to be a good clinician. You seem to have none of that.

I don't think this is the career for you.

 

[Jason K]

Eyes seem to be an exception for me. Eyes have always been the most interesting body part for me to look at (other than certain nether regions due to my natural biology), and I enjoy reading about how the eyes work on Wikipedia, eye diagrams, or drawing pretty irises. I wouldn't mind looking at thousands of eyes and maybe learning to draw them in the process. This field lets you stare at people's faces a lot.

If drawing irises appeals to you, maybe you should become an ocularist. Unlike optometrists, they don't grow on trees.

 

[Yozora]

Anyone care to give me any longer answers? Drawing isn't the main reason I'm interested in the field, its just something fun I thought I'd throw out. I am curious how many optometrists draw or can paint eyes, and what got them into the field.

At the core I like the idea that with corrective eyewear you're improving quality of a person's life, rather than just artificaly adding weeks to an aged and miserable patient who has lived their life and will soon pass anyway at a cost of perhaps 20,000 dollars. I remember getting eye glasses and how much nicer it was to see details clearly, and I think it would be nice to work in a honest environment which lined up with my own philosophies. One where you could focus on doing a good job rather than wasting energies on office politics. Life is too short for that.

 

[jellybean2020]

OP I totally relate to you. I enjoy the smell of new shoes; that's why I went into podiatry. I actually cant stand medicine either.

Being serious though, you'll probably have to learn about those 'boring diseases' and 'biology stuff' in optometry school. Definitely a lot more than you'll be drawing irises lol.

 

[hurdlepup]

Be a tech, or an ocularist... If you like art, ocularist is the way to go.

 

[Loptometriste]

I agree. Be an ocularist. You will still be improving peoples' lives.

 

[hello07]

Yozora,
My piece of advice to you. Optometry school is not a walk in the park-easy. It's a difficult rigorous 4 year program requiring a lot of dedication to your studies with massive amount of material to be learned, memorized as well as understood. The basic sciences of the curriculum are intense and require a lot of reading and studying. Optics also requires a lot of understanding and memorizing. If you write your personal statement depicting what you asked and what you wrote - you will be rejected from every Optometry school no matter if you have a 4.0 GPA undergrad and stellar OAT scores.

Research and read about optometry because you have absolutely no clue on the profession. Visit a clinic, a private practice and retail offices and speak to optometrists to gain some insight on the profession. You are clueless and your parents hard earmed money or your 250-300,000 dollar loans will go to waste.

Pick something else.......................tech

 

[Optogal]

If you write your personal statement depicting what you asked and what you wrote - you will be rejected from every Optometry school no matter if you have a 4.0 GPA undergrad and stellar OAT scores.

This is nonsense. If he is a 4.0/400, he could get zero on his essay component and still get in. I know the admissions method for one school is top 2/3rd of marks/OAT get in automatically, with the remaining 1/3 of the class getting their "soft factors" (including essay) looked at. You really think that opening statement would kill a 4.0/400? I've read optom statement-of-purpose letters from low-70s students who got optometry admissions that were far worse than this.

Everyone has their reason for choosing optometry over other careers. Are you suggesting he would rank dead-last in terms of "appropriate motivation" for the career in everyone who is in the profession? I'm sure there are reams of individuals who've had worse "motivation" to enter OD school and are now practicing "successfully" as optometrists across the U.S.

 

[BioBeaver]

OP, if this is what motivates you, and you've shadowed an Optometrist so you know what it's really like, I say to for it. Don't let some SDNers make you give up your dream, you definitely don't want to look back in 10 years and say "Man, I wish I would've....." Best of luck!

 

[BioBeaver]

OP, if this is what motivates you, and you've shadowed an Optometrist so you know what it's really like, I say go for it. Don't let some SDNers make you give up your dream, you definitely don't want to look back in 10 years and say "Man, I wish I would've....." Best of luck!

 

[Digitalized]

Don't go into this half-heartedly. You'll end up quitting and wasting a lot of time and money. I love this profession, and I've been on the brink of quitting way too many times (not due to grades).

 

[q1we3]

Don't go into this half-heartedly. You'll end up quitting and wasting a lot of time and money. I love this profession, and I've been on the brink of quitting way too many times (not due to grades).

I feel like quitting everyday , only thing keeping we going is the thousands of dollars I have already invested. Life is a living hell .

 

[vistaril]

I feel like quitting everyday , only thing keeping we going is the thousands of dollars I have already invested. Life is a living hell .

ummm...why? What, since you started optom school, had made you feel like quitting?

 

[EyEnStein 07]

Don't go into this half-heartedly. You'll end up quitting and wasting a lot of time and money. I love this profession, and I've been on the brink of quitting way too many times (not due to grades).

I feel like quitting everyday , only thing keeping we going is the thousands of dollars I have already invested. Life is a living hell .

Do you guys feel like this about Optometry specifically? Or science in general?

If given the chance to absolve all of the debt, what would you guys do instead?

 

[q1we3]

Do you guys feel like this about Optometry specifically? Or science in general?

If given the chance to absolve all of the debt, what would you guys do instead?

I do anything that has a good ROI, I have been on the dean's list with honors every semester. But does that really matter ? When almost all grads are having exceptionally hand times landing decent PP jobs what good is this useless made up profession. There are virtually no full time jobs in PP where I want to settle and the loan or more like the rope around my neck just keeps tightening. I don't have anybody to vent in person so I come here to get this stuff off my chest, its going to be all negative and don't care. I wish my area wasn't filled with so many unhappy ODs . For every single successful OD there are ten failures .

 

[q1we3]

Same here. I still think that I might get up some morning, say "life is a joke" and drive away. I've been so close. I remember one particular Friday afternoon when I knew that I was about to spend the next three or four days in my room looking at skull parts or cranial nerves or something, and I really, really thought that I might load up my car and get out. That was during my first semester. I should have done it in the first few months when I really saw how bad things were going to be.

I hear you brother, just the thought of not being rewarded after all the years filled with countless hrs of studying & thousands of dollars of student loan will make anyone go nuts. We have to finish it now too late to turn back.

 

[vistaril]

I do anything that has a good ROI, I have been on the dean's list with honors every semester. But does that really matter ? When almost all grads are having exceptionally hand times landing decent PP jobs what good is this useless made up profession. There are virtually no full time jobs in PP where I want to settle.

and you are still in optom school? Exactly what has happened from before you entered optom school(when you presumably didnt feel this way) and to this point to make you feel this way? If you are still in optom school how do you know this is the reality? And if you already knew it was the reality without any real experience why in the world did you decide to go to optom school?

 

[310]

I feel like quitting everyday , only thing keeping we going is the thousands of dollars I have already invested. Life is a living hell .

Why don't you shut the hell up, get your degree, and start whining when you've actually failed?

 

[JMK2005]

Why don't you shut the hell up, get your degree, and start whining when you've actually failed?

So much anger.

 

[q1we3]

Why don't you shut the hell up, get your degree, and start whining when you've actually failed?

Why you plan on giving me a 100k job ? Do yourself a favor and click the ignore button. Sorry if I am not happy enough for you .

 

[310]

Where are you willing to work/move to and can you interview well? The dean's list doesn't matter in the real world.

 

[q1we3]

Where are you willing to work/move to and can you interview well? The dean's list doesn't matter in the real world.

Interview well? lol. What makes you think that students who do well academically in Optometry school are not fit for the real world and our social degenerates? Have lived and studied in 3 different countries , know multiple languages, so I think I am capable of striking decent conservation when needed.
But then again you might be looking for someone who barely passed optometry school and board exams.

 

[310]

Sorry, why would you take offense to what I asked and come up with all of those assumptions? Where did that even come from? Your grades honestly don't matter. No employer even looks at them, or your board scores for that matter. Location matters and your ability to interview also matters. Being on the dean's list is roughly as important as whether you can play golf to most employers, in my opinion. Now, if you'll fill me in on the areas where you're willing to work, I'll tell you if the mythical 100k benchmark is breakable straight out of school.

 

[JMK2005]

Sorry, why would you take offense to what I asked and come up with all of those assumptions? Where did that even come from?

Because you were an ass in your earlier post.

 

[310]

Because you were an ass in your earlier post.

yeah, I know, but saying "life is living hell" because you're on pace to be an optometrist is more than a little melodramatic.

 

[SDN]

Why don't you shut the hell up, get your degree, and start whining when you've actually failed?

Please do not directly attack other members. Please keep it respectful.

 

[Loptometriste]

I don't think 310 was making assumptions that because you are academically inclined means you are socially awkward. I believe he was just emphasizing the role of the interview over other aspects of your résumé.

 

[20DOC20]

Back to the original topic: The reasons the poster listed for becoming an OD are insufficient in my opinion. I actually thought this whole thread was a joke, or if the poster had written it when intoxicated. If I were on an admissions committee and read something so ridiculous as that in an application, that person would not even be given an interview.

The job of optometrist is a serious job. It is not a joke. It won't be fun. It will not be "laid back" once Obamacare hits. Lots of private practices are gearing up for O-day by doubling their load. That means 20-30 exams a day. That's not laid back, nor fun and actually I think I might find myself another non-medical career. I've had a good run. But really, if optometry becomes like that, it is not the profession I signed up for!

Reasons it will be ugly: Most patients will have their hrs cut by their employer to below minimum for employers to provide medical insurance. Less income means patients unwilling to pay out-of-pocket expenses. Less $$ for us. Lots won't have medical. Some employers are keeping dental and vision by switching to low cost vision plans such as Eyemed, Spectera, Davis and VSP, the four WORST reimbursing insurances out there. Or private people are seeking their own vision or dental coverage and many are going through one of the four insurances listed.

Spectera caps what you can make on exam/dispensing fees at around 120. Eyemed, Davis and VSP cap reimbursement for exam/hardware/dispensing fees at 200.

Obamacare will make the vision fee-for-service plans extinct. Only capped plans will remain: Eyemed, Davis, VSP, Spectera. That means the average private practice sale (after all the insurance adjustments) will go from 400 to 200.

To make the same amount of money, OD's are doubling the patient load. That means 20 minute exams in private practices, making no distinction between the quality of care found at commerical vs private practices. Obamacare will make private practices sweat shops for OD's.

You want to make 100K? Unrealistic. You might make 40K just out of school employed and maybe 80K in a busy commercial practice if you are the leaseholder. If you were really lucky and got the lease to a super busy established walmart and saw exams 15 minutes apart you could make 100K. That won't happen because those OD's won't give up those leases. If income is your motivation, don't go into optometry. The $$ isn't there anymore for new grads. Worse - the economy has delayed retirement for older OD's because they're waiting for their 401K'S to recover from the crash of 2008. Many are holding on to their practices until they're practically on their deathbed! It's sad. Also, a lot of older OD's want too much $$ for their practices. The private practices are decreasing in value because of managed care. It's really sad. This would be such a great profession if every OD over 65 just retired and either sold their practice to a new grad or did an owner carry deal. The old guys are working into their 80's. It's ridiculous.

ObamaCare may not affect commercial places, and ironically, you may actually get a better exam at Wal-Mart than private practice in the future because those practices have a majority of patients paying cash.

My point: You are entering a profession where you have to think fast work fast and will be stuck in a barely air-conditioned 10 by 10 dark room all day long with angry frustrated patients. They will be angry and frustrated for being treated like "cattle" (as one patient of mine phrased it) and for having to wait so long to see you. They will also be angry that you had a tech do your refraction for you. And that will make your day just fun.

That's your future. You won't have TIME to draw eyes! This isn't a profession for hippies or artists. It's a profession for fast-talking, fast thinking, energetic young people who can keep pace with the changing face of healthcare. Welcome to socialized medicine.

Sorry.

I may bag the whole thing myself! It may not be worth the trouble.

If you want a career as an ocularist, that may be ok, but the problem is that the field is saturated. Your clients have to be blind and medicine seems to be getting better at preventing that.

You might look into medical illustration. John's Hopkins has a killer program in that field. It's competitive though. You'll need to be really, really good at realistic drawing and you'll need to have a substantial portfolio of including most art forms from drawing to painting to sculpture.

Good luck. I just do not think optometry is for you at all. Seriously.

But don't take it personally. Not every person is suited for every career. That's why there are so many different career fields available.

You need to talk to a career counselor at your college and find out where your aptitudes lie and draw up on that.

 

[310]

I don't think 310 was making assumptions that because you are academically inclined means you are socially awkward. I believe he was just emphasizing the role of the interview over other aspects of your résumé.

yes, that's exactly what I implied

 

[310]

Back to the original topic: The reasons the poster listed for becoming an OD are insufficient in my opinion. I actually thought this whole thread was a joke, or if the poster had written it when intoxicated. If I were on an admissions committee and read something so ridiculous as that in an application, that person would not even be given an interview.

The job of optometrist is a serious job. It is not a joke. It won't be fun. It will not be "laid back" once Obamacare hits. Lots of private practices are gearing up for O-day by doubling their load. That means 20-30 exams a day. That's not laid back, nor fun and actually I think I might find myself another non-medical career. I've had a good run. But really, if optometry becomes like that, it is not the profession I signed up for!

Reasons it will be ugly: Most patients will have their hrs cut by their employer to below minimum for employers to provide medical insurance. Less income means patients unwilling to pay out-of-pocket expenses. Less $$ for us. Lots won't have medical. Some employers are keeping dental and vision by switching to low cost vision plans such as Eyemed, Spectera, Davis and VSP, the four WORST reimbursing insurances out there. Or private people are seeking their own vision or dental coverage and many are going through one of the four insurances listed.

Spectera caps what you can make on exam/dispensing fees at around 120. Eyemed, Davis and VSP cap reimbursement for exam/hardware/dispensing fees at 200.

Obamacare will make the vision fee-for-service plans extinct. Only capped plans will remain: Eyemed, Davis, VSP, Spectera. That means the average private practice sale (after all the insurance adjustments) will go from 400 to 200.

To make the same amount of money, OD's are doubling the patient load. That means 20 minute exams in private practices, making no distinction between the quality of care found at commerical vs private practices. Obamacare will make private practices sweat shops for OD's.

You want to make 100K? Unrealistic. You might make 40K just out of school employed and maybe 80K in a busy commercial practice if you are the leaseholder. If you were really lucky and got the lease to a super busy established walmart and saw exams 15 minutes apart you could make 100K. That won't happen because those OD's won't give up those leases. If income is your motivation, don't go into optometry. The $$ isn't there anymore for new grads. Worse - the economy has delayed retirement for older OD's because they're waiting for their 401K'S to recover from the crash of 2008. Many are holding on to their practices until they're practically on their deathbed! It's sad. Also, a lot of older OD's want too much $$ for their practices. The private practices are decreasing in value because of managed care. It's really sad. This would be such a great profession if every OD over 65 just retired and either sold their practice to a new grad or did an owner carry deal. The old guys are working into their 80's. It's ridiculous.

ObamaCare may not affect commercial places, and ironically, you may actually get a better exam at Wal-Mart than private practice in the future because those practices have a majority of patients paying cash.

My point: You are entering a profession where you have to think fast work fast and will be stuck in a barely air-conditioned 10 by 10 dark room all day long with angry frustrated patients. They will be angry and frustrated for being treated like "cattle" (as one patient of mine phrased it) and for having to wait so long to see you. They will also be angry that you had a tech do your refraction for you. And that will make your day just fun.

That's your future. You won't have TIME to draw eyes! This isn't a profession for hippies or artists. It's a profession for fast-talking, fast thinking, energetic young people who can keep pace with the changing face of healthcare. Welcome to socialized medicine.

Sorry.

I may bag the whole thing myself! It may not be worth the trouble.
.

I'm neither trying to be optimistic nor pessimistic here, but your argument is flat out incomplete if you aren't taking into account medical plans and jobs with OMD's. I agree that expecting to get by in private practice with low volume for Davis, Spectera, etc. is unrealistic, but optometry is more versatile than that. Also, the 40k statement is a joke. If anything, it's the availability of full time work in the more saturated job markets that is difficult to find. If you work full time, you will pull in some money. Whether that means 75k or 120+ depends on a lot of things that I'm not gonna get into, but location is obviously a big one.

Yes to what you said about volume though. I do think optometry is generally headed in that direction, except in very rural and extremely high end places.

 

[Tippytoe]

Back to the original topic: .

Excellent post 20DOC20. I hope people listen.

 

[Eye4aEye]

I think that many of us have the mentality: "Well, I've gone this far, what is a few more years? There is a reward at the end of this (very long) tunnel, isn't there?!?"

I really hope there is a reward. As an upcoming 2nd year Optometry student, I need some hope that I haven't made a big mistake!

 

[20DOC20]

I think that many of us have the mentality: "Well, I've gone this far, what is a few more years? There is a reward at the end of this (very long) tunnel, isn't there?!?"

I really hope there is a reward. As an upcoming 2nd year Optometry student, I need some hope that I haven't made a big mistake!

The interesting thing is that optometry is super-saturated in the US. I don't know the situation in other western countries. The third-world countries are in desperate need of optometrists and there is a shortage there. That might be an avenue optometry should explore.

If I didn't have the personal family obligations tying me down, I'd consider practicing in a country that actually needs optometrists. Those places DO exist. There is a shortage in non-western countries.

The problem is that student loans tie students down to countries where the income will pay off the loan ... yet ... those same countries are saturated job-wise. So there's a Catch-22. Also, optometry in some of those non-western countries is old-school optometry (more non-medical) and that turns a lot of people off. (Personally, I'd like it).

It's a difficult problem to solve.

I think that perhaps our government should ... instead of giving money to poor countries to spend at their own leisure ... they should instead give poor countries doctors and forgive the student loan debt of those doctors for practicing in an area of need for X amount of time.

Because the student loan debt is the next bubble.

Sorry. Getting off subject.

Anyway, good luck and best wishes. Just finish what you started is what my advice would be and if you're unable to pay off your student loans then you'll be in the same boat as everyone else and the government really can't do much to you except ruin your credit. Credit isn't real. It's just a number that has been really well marketed by the powers that be.

 

[sampler]

Sorry, why would you take offense to what I asked and come up with all of those assumptions? Where did that even come from? Your grades honestly don't matter. No employer even looks at them, or your board scores for that matter. Location matters and your ability to interview also matters. Being on the dean's list is roughly as important as whether you can play golf to most employers, in my opinion. Now, if you'll fill me in on the areas where you're willing to work, I'll tell you if the mythical 100k benchmark is breakable straight out of school.

310, sorry to reference an 8-month old post, but I was reading you here, and you never got a chance to say which geographical areas you think the new optometry grad would be able to break "the mythical $100k benchmark" straight out of school?? I am considering optometry and am very curious about this. I would like to stay in Southern California where I currently live, but all the talk is that optometry is horribly saturated here. I would be willing to move to other warm weather metropolitan areas (city or suburbs, not rural), in roughly the following order of preference: Phoenix, Las Vegas, Miami/Ft Laud/W. Palm Bch, Tampa, Orlando, Austin, San Antonio, Tucson, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, maybe Jacksonville FL, maybe Bakersfield CA. What do you think of the prospects for making a strong income both out of OD school and down the line in these areas, particularly for my higher ranked choices? Any other ideas of areas I might want to consider?

 

[310]

310, sorry to reference an 8-month old post, but I was reading you here, and you never got a chance to say which geographical areas you think the new optometry grad would be able to break "the mythical $100k benchmark" straight out of school?? I am considering optometry and am very curious about this. I would like to stay in Southern California where I currently live, but all the talk is that optometry is horribly saturated here. I would be willing to move to other warm weather metropolitan areas (city or suburbs, not rural), in roughly the following order of preference: Phoenix, Las Vegas, Miami/Ft Laud/W. Palm Bch, Tampa, Orlando, Austin, San Antonio, Tucson, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, maybe Jacksonville FL, maybe Bakersfield CA. What do you think of the prospects for making a strong income both out of OD school and down the line in these areas, particularly for my higher ranked choices? Any other ideas of areas I might want to consider?

I don't recommend Southern CA except maybe for an underserved area like Lancaster or Modesto (Bakersfield too, like you mentioned). I left LA mainly because the jobs weren't right. Arizona is okay for optometry from what I know and low for cost of living. FL is good, but licensing is difficult. Texas varies but has some good areas and favorable property values and taxes (from what I've heard). NV has some issues. I don't know anything about Atl.

In most parts of Southern CA it would be tough to earn 100k right away or even after several years, depends on the individual situation. In FL you definitely could and in many parts of Texas too. I'm sure it's possible in AZ but living is also dirt cheap which changes the value of money.

 

[opto2be]

What do you guys think of the new legislation that optometry advocates are attempting to pass (or have already passed) in various states, including California, that would increase the scope of practice? Do you feel that will help the profession?

 

[EyeCaptain]

I think expanding the scope of practice is almost always good for the profession, although I don't personally think we should be pushing for surgical privileges. I know that's not really what you're referring to, because I'm assuming since you mentioned California that you are talking about treating diabetes. Optometry has been increasingly expanding it's scope of practice, and I think that is good, as long as we are really trained to do the things we are pushing for. I don't think surgery is one of those things.

 

[RadixLuminogen]

I think expanding the scope of practice is almost always good for the profession, although I don't personally think we should be pushing for surgical privileges. I know that's not really what you're referring to, because I'm assuming since you mentioned California that you are talking about treating diabetes. Optometry has been increasingly expanding it's scope of practice, and I think that is good, as long as we are really trained to do the things we are pushing for. I don't think surgery is one of those things.

OK thanks for your opinion pre-optometry. I think ODs have a unique position in that they specialize in the eye earlier than any M.D.s or D.O.s and that allows them to possibly become more proficient in eye care. If all you want to do is refract then that's fine but don't stand in the way of progress.

 

[EyeCaptain]

OK thanks for your opinion pre-optometry. I think ODs have a unique position in that they specialize in the eye earlier than any M.D.s or D.O.s and that allows them to possibly become more proficient in eye care. If all you want to do is refract then that's fine but don't stand in the way of progress.

Forgive me, I've forgotten my place. I long for the wisdom that is inherent to third year Optometry students. As it turns out, Optometrists are very highly trained primary care providers who are capable of managing and treating a variety of diseases, which is why they are licensed to do so. I don't think you or I are in a position to say who is more proficient in eye care, since neither of us have been to Medical school. I do, however, plan to do everything I can to help this profession move forward and gain more privileges, despite my desire to spend all of my time refracting, as you have so astutely deduced from my previous post. Luckily, despite my insulting suggestion that surgery shouldn't become the norm for OD's, I'm glad that you also want to advance the profession. Just be sure to push me aside so that I'm not in your way.

 

[dantt]

I think ODs have a unique position in that they specialize in the eye earlier than any M.D.s or D.O.s and that allows them to possibly become more proficient in eye care.

I never post in this forum but once in awhile see something egregiously wrong. After 6 months of residency, the vast majority of ophthalmology residents will be more proficient than any optometrist. Without making any comment about intelligence or skill, the training for ophthalmology is on a completely different level.

 

[EyeCaptain]

After 6 months of residency, the vast majority of ophthalmology residents will be more proficient than any optometrist. Without making any comment about intelligence or skill, the training for ophthalmology is on a completely different level.

Without making any comment about intelligence or skill, do you consider yourself such an expert on the matter that you would feel comfortable making a claim like that, considering that you are neither an OD nor an OMD?

 

[RadixLuminogen]

I never post in this forum but once in awhile see something egregiously wrong. After 6 months of residency, the vast majority of ophthalmology residents will be more proficient than any optometrist. Without making any comment about intelligence or skill, the training for ophthalmology is on a completely different level.

Yeah OK bro not everyone with the highest IQ's joins the M.D.s. Maybe some people realize that neuroplasticity is greater at a younger age and specializing in the eye younger is better? By the time Ophthalmology residents start learning a vast amount about the eye they are at a minimum age 26 for the average student. The pre-frontal cortex has already finished developing, the peak of abstract reasoning has passed.

Most medical post-graduates that start out an Ophthalmology residency have almost no clue what they are doing because the learning curve is so great and there is little to none exposure to eye care before residency except if they specifically do an ophthalmology rotation which is uncommonly available to medical students.

 

[dantt]

Without making any comment about intelligence or skill, do you consider yourself such an expert on the matter that you would feel comfortable making a claim like that, considering that you are neither an OD nor an OMD?

I'm an OMD and we hosted visiting optometry students for a few months of their training where they see all their pathology. Even then, all the hard cases were automatically triaged to the MD's and the optometry students never saw those patients.

 

[dantt]

Most medical post-graduates that start out an Ophthalmology residency have almost no clue what they are doing because the learning curve is so great and there is little to none exposure to eye care before residency except if they specifically do an ophthalmology rotation which is uncommonly available to medical students.

Right. And by the time they're done with 6 months of residency, they'll have surpassed most optometrists out in practice. How many optometrists see patients for flashes and floaters and find holes? After 3 years of optometry school schruenck, have you ever even seen a hole? Most I know would send them on their way to a retina specialist; maybe take a few photos on the way. How many optometrists would even consider holding onto a corneal ulcer for more than a few visits if it doesn't seem to be getting better? Do any even scrape for cultures? It's amazing how many "narrow angles" I see from optometric "glaucoma specialists" who don't even bother doing a gonioscopic exam.

 

[RadixLuminogen]

Right. And by the time they're done with 6 months of residency, they'll have surpassed most optometrists out in practice. How many optometrists see patients for flashes and floaters and find holes? After 3 years of optometry school schruenck, have you ever even seen a hole? Most I know would send them on their way to a retina specialist; maybe take a few photos on the way. How many optometrists would even consider holding onto a corneal ulcer for more than a few visits if it doesn't seem to be getting better? Do any even scrape for cultures? It's amazing how many "narrow angles" I see from optometric "glaucoma specialists" who don't even bother doing a gonioscopic exam.

Actually yes, I found holes after complaints of recent and not so recent onset of flashes and floaters. Some were nicely pigmented over and did not need any further intervention, others were referred out for laser prophylaxis. Yes, ODs scrape for cultures depending on state law. Also, gonioscopy is standard of care for any glaucoma suspect, highly hyperopic patient, pt. with angles of 2 or less etc. Yes, some Optometrists graduated when the educational standard was sub-par and did not include medical priviledges (30-40 years ago) but nowadays recently graduated ODs are way ahead.

 

[EyeCaptain]

I'm an OMD and we hosted visiting optometry students for a few months of their training where they see all their pathology. Even then, all the hard cases were automatically triaged to the MD's and the optometry students never saw those patients.

Then I was mistaken based on your status. It's interesting that a Physician would choose to identify himself as a medical student.

Right. And by the time they're done with 6 months of residency, they'll have surpassed most optometrists out in practice.

This statement is as unfounded as it is pointless. If to you, "surpassed" means seeing more complicated pathology, well then hats off to you, but lest you consider yourself to be at the top of your perceived food chain, remember that cornea and retinal specialists have "surpassed" you. Fortunately, none of that matters. If your end goal was to call out a previous post about OD's being more proficient eye care providers than OMD's, you have succeeded, because the poster did not have a basis for that statement aside from neuroplasticity, which is a terrible argument in my opinion. Similarly, you have no basis (no relevent one) to support your opposite claim. To say that either one is a "more proficient" eye care provider is to propose an argument based on irrelevance and a false hierarchy. The two cannot be lined up that easily, because despite the overlap, they are two distinct professions, that in practice, should work together to provide the best care possible for the patient.


Side note: This thread has been derailed.

 

[310]

Right. And by the time they're done with 6 months of residency, they'll have surpassed most optometrists out in practice. How many optometrists see patients for flashes and floaters and find holes? After 3 years of optometry school schruenck, have you ever even seen a hole? Most I know would send them on their way to a retina specialist; maybe take a few photos on the way. How many optometrists would even consider holding onto a corneal ulcer for more than a few visits if it doesn't seem to be getting better? Do any even scrape for cultures? It's amazing how many "narrow angles" I see from optometric "glaucoma specialists" who don't even bother doing a gonioscopic exam.

There is lots and lots of variability in the competence of optometrists. A lot of it depends on what you end up doing after graduating.

 

[20DOC20]

QUOTE: Right. And by the time they're done with 6 months of residency, they'll have surpassed most optometrists out in practice. How many optometrists see patients for flashes and floaters and find holes? After 3 years of optometry school schruenck, have you ever even seen a hole? Most I know would send them on their way to a retina specialist; maybe take a few photos on the way. How many optometrists would even consider holding onto a corneal ulcer for more than a few visits if it doesn't seem to be getting better? Do any even scrape for cultures? It's amazing how many "narrow angles" I see from optometric "glaucoma specialists" who don't even bother doing a gonioscopic exam.

I admit that I can't cook. I also can't drive very well and it's a miracle I haven't run over a pedestrian by now. I'm not a good housekeeper. I'm not very good at my understanding of strabismus and neuro-ophthalmic rehab techniques. I also consider the lids, cornea, conjunctive as mere dustcovers for the jewel of the eye: THE RETINA. The retina is my favorite part of the eye, and therefore is the most important.

I find lots of stuff and I can (and have) done it undilated, though nowadays I dilate almost everyone. I once diagnosed a case of Coat's disease without dilating (I was filling-in at a Wal-Mart) the patient because I'm awesome at BIO. Same goes with an amelanotic melanoma in the posterior pole (also in a Wal-Mart). List goes on and on over my 18 yr career. I'm so good at retina exams that I was asked to teach BIO to other optometry students as my work study.

I find retinal holes often and I've impressed more than one MD at this ability. I've gotten lots of congratulatory phone calls over a hard-to-find diagnosis.

I think I just have a really awesome BIO that FITS ME. I had to modify it to fit my skull. It's an old Propper small-pupil head mount BIO. I also got awesome at Slit-lamp BIO, using a 120D lens and tilting the slit lamp apparatus right/left to see N/T sides better. I see the edge of the ora a lot. That's fun, too.

I see lattice, White without pressure, PVDs, AMD, etc ... daily.

I do gonioscopy at least twice a day and on all glaucoma suspects. I also like to examine the RNFL with red-free on all patients because my best-corrected VA is 20/15+3 OU. Meaning, I can see individual fibers with naked eye. I crank up the rheostat to get a REALLY HD view of the RNFL with red-free green. You can see RNFL wedge defects with the naked eye (and also diffuse loss).

I rarely refer a corneal ulcer out, though I don't culture. If it's unresponsive it's out. Actually, most serious ulcers never even make it into the door of our office so I don't have that opportunity.

I'm bragging, but it's the truth. To say otherwise would be false modesty.

And I do admit that I could use more training in pediatric optometry. And I should care more for patients suffering from anterior segment disease, such as dry eye, but since it doesn't involve the retina, I don't really consider those "real" diseases. LOL!

Anyway .... what's the topic of the thread???

 

[jeknee117]

If the law or US Supreme Court allows optical shops to hire optometrists in their stores, do you think there will be more job opportunities for ODs?