I was hit on by the physician I shadowed.

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The lurkers and members here insist in keeping preallo clutter free (and reduce the forum's bad reputation), and wish to move all the political and social controversy threads to the Lounge/sociopolitical forums.
Sorry dude, but so far I've only seen you suggest that.

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The lurkers and members here insist in keeping preallo clutter free (and reduce the forum's bad reputation), and wish to move all the political and social controversy threads to the Lounge/sociopolitical forums.
Eww, no...there's a reason we have our own social thread. Lounge is a cesspool.
 
Sorry dude, but so far I've only seen you suggest that.

Nah man. I'm just a messenger relaying the concerns here. I want this thread to continue at full speed and may bring more, interesting members here.

Eww, no...there's a reason we have our own social thread. Lounge is a cesspool.

The threads in the Lounge/SP and this thread/URM/etc controversy threads are really not much different as the discussion grows
 
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I think when guys get rejected the first time, they take it as a challenge. Like "Oh he/she is just playing hard to get. I'm going to give it a little time, then come at them even harder next time. I'm going to erect my masculinity as an alpha male and show that I'm persistent and I'm going to have you."

Who has come across these types of guys? *raises hand* I have... pretty often.
I think once people try to generalize what men and women or like you focus in on one rotten apple and try to justify throwing out the whole barrel. The above post is only marginally better than the "all men are dogs" comment. Yes there are (guys and gals) out there who are idiots. That's why we have laws and rules and employee handbooks and HR policies, etc in the first place. To keep the FEW idiots in line.
 
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Or statements about stuff like women being unable to see objective truth and seeing stuff in the shadows.

On page 7 you literally told Law2Doc he couldn't understand OP because he was a man.
You are accusing men of being "unable to see objective truth".
 
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On page 7 you literally told Law2Doc he couldn't understand OP because he was a man.
You are accusing men of being "unable to see objective truth".

No, I'm not. What I'm talking about with Law2Doc is a subjective experience that women have that men don't have. That's completely different. Nice "gotcha" attempt, though.
 
On page 7 you literally told Law2Doc he couldn't understand OP because he was a man.
You are accusing men of being "unable to see objective truth".
I don't think that's what she was doing. It's similar to white people trying to understand racism against blacks. They can understand it up to a point, of course, but perspective does matter here.
 
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Because this is a thread about shadowing and some of the readers might not wade through nine pages and see that the conversation has changed.

No, it's not "about shadowing." The original story was from a shadowing situation, but I'll refer you to the OP:

I was recently asked by one of the physicians that I shadow what my plans for the weekend were. After I had told him he also decided to add, "well if you are free tomorrow evening, let me know." I do not have LOR yet, but was planning on asking him for one.

How have other women in this field dealt with superiors and/or individuals in power such as someone who could write you a LOR, or refer you to other physicians for shadowing purposes, but obviously also have an attraction to you, try to hit on you, sleep with you, etc...?

It's not just about shadowing. It's about any situation where a superior or someone with power over you hits on you.
 
I think once people try to generalize what men and women or like you focus in on one rotten apple and try to justify throwing out the whole barrel. The above post is only marginally better than the "all men are dogs" comment. Yes there are (guys and gals) out there who are idiots. That's why we have laws and rules and employee handbooks and HR policies, etc in the first place. To keep the FEW idiots in line.
Agreed that we should keep away from gender generalizations.

However, you drastically underestimate the number of idiots, and drastically OVER estimate the utility of laws, rules, and HR when so many of the idiots are involved with the police, the courts, and the social structure at work.
 
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No, I'm not. What I'm talking about with Law2Doc is a subjective experience that women have that men don't have. That's completely different. Nice "gotcha" attempt, though.

Except you quoted me a few posts ago saying that it's an experience men also have. :rolleyes:
 
Yes, it's run it's course it seems--this before the thread lock.

I think this clip sums it up--at least from my end. I applaud Keira Knightley's character, Elizabeth, for handling it well. Of course, I am referring to the original post, and not subsequent renditions of it.

 
Except you quoted me a few posts ago saying that it's an experience men also have. :rolleyes:

Oh, lol. "Eyeroll." You're referring to this post:

Oh, women do sometimes hit on men in very crazily inappropriate ways! I work with someone who does it all the time and the men are certainly not shy about just being like "WTF, put it away!" She cries a lot.

But that's not really the same thing as the kind of constant, low-level pestering that a lot of women are on the receiving end of. That's a trickier proposition, how to deal with it tactfully, how to manage your own exhaustion with it, etc.

So this brings up an interesting question. How do you men handle rejecting all of the unwanted advances from women in the workplace?

This post? In which I specifically point out that the experiences men have with sexual harassment are not the same as the "the kind of constant, low-level pestering that a lot of women are on the receiving end of"?

Yeah. Well done, dude. :laugh:
 
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I don't think that's what she was doing. It's similar to white people trying to understand racism against blacks. They can understand it up to a point, of course, but perspective does matter here.
Meh. We were taking about whether you needed a woman's perspective to decide if there was a change in OPs first post and second. I don't think you do. The words written have objective meaning. Anything you are reading between the lines comes from your own head, not the poster. To be honest though, I'm really not so sure someone who doesn't appreciate being hit on or touched has that much of a shared perspective with the OP, who we know from another thread is a shot girl contemplating stripping her way through med school, heading into an industry where being hit on and groped is essentially how you pay the bills.
 
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Meh. We were taking about whether you needed a woman's perspective to decide if there was a change in OPs first post and second. I don't think you do. The words written have objective meaning. Anything you are reading between the lines comes from your own head, not the poster. To be honest though, I'm really not so sure someone who doesn't appreciate being hit on or touched has that much of a shared perspective with the OP, who we know from another thread is a shot girl contemplating stripping her way through med school, heading into an industry where being hit on and groped is essentially how you pay the bills.
I was speaking more generally, but yes that is a fair point.
 
I don't understand the fixation in this thread about whether or not OP is trolling and what does or does not constitute a "huge change in story". Even if this situation didn't happen to OP, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's probably happened to someone else -- probably many others. Is all of the nitpicking about what the legal definition of harassment and a workplace necessary? If your friend came to you for advice in this situation, would you stop her in the middle of your conversation because she wasn't detailed enough when texting you and now you think she's making up things for attention? Sometimes being technically correct is just not worth it.
 
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Meh. We were taking about whether you needed a woman's perspective to decide if there was a change in OPs first post and second. I don't think you do. The words written have objective meaning. Anything you are reading between the lines comes from your own head, not the poster. To be honest though, I'm really not so sure someone who doesn't appreciate being hit on or touched has that much of a shared perspective with the OP, who we know from another thread is a shot girl contemplating stripping her way through med school, heading into an industry where being hit on and groped is essentially how you pay the bills.

I really, really hate this repeated implication that a shot girl is supposed to be more okay with getting touched and hit on in a non-shot girl scenario. It's not like she isn't allowed to have self-respect or feelings in a shadowing situation because she did this other job.
 
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No, it's not "about shadowing." The original story was from a shadowing situation, but I'll refer you to the OP:

It's not just about shadowing. It's about any situation where a superior or someone with power over you hits on you.

The title of the thread is about shadowing. Someone joining late in the game is going to think it is. And again the guy you are shadowing isn't a "superior" and you are once again using words that try to put legal significance on a relationship that doesn't have such, the point I started out with on page 1. So we have come full circle. And so this is where I will depart. :)
 
Meh. We were taking about whether you needed a woman's perspective to decide if there was a change in OPs first post and second. I don't think you do. The words written have objective meaning. Anything you are reading between the lines comes from your own head, not the poster. To be honest though, I'm really not so sure someone who doesn't appreciate being hit on or touched has that much of a shared perspective with the OP, who we know from another thread is a shot girl contemplating stripping her way through med school, heading into an industry where being hit on and groped is essentially how you pay the bills.
Jesus christ, NO. Context is everything. A girl might not mind being leered at when there's Security and she's being paid for the inconvenience and she never has to work closely with anyone watching, but that means NOTHING about her openness to advances in other situations.

As before, since it didn't sink in:
"Acting as if the two are relevant is deeply problematic, because it directly implies that once a person consents to something in one particular context, they are stuck with that decision in all subsequent scenarios. That is not only false, it's the kind of thinking that gets people into serious trouble.

Unless the coffee date with the doc was taking place in the strip club while she worked, it's. not. relevant. Period."
 
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The title of the thread is about shadowing. Someone joining late in the game is going to think it is. And again the guy you are shadowing isn't a "superior" and you are once again using words that try to put legal significance on a relationship that doesn't have such, the point I started out with on page 1. So we have come full circle. And so this is where I will depart. :)

So pedantic. Good night.
 
I have to disagree with @Cotterpin about the fact that this being a shadowing experience is unimportant. Why? Because in a shadowing experience you aren't protected by HR or workplace laws against sexual harassment, which actually makes this more bothersome to me than if the OP was at her place of work. Physicians absolutely are acting as mentors when they agree to have a shadow, for reasons mentioned by @mehc012. What makes this whole situation uniquely bothersome is that a young woman was hit on in a professional setting but isn't protected from harassment. What does she do? Because whether or not people choose to believe it, this happens quite frequently and as a young woman who just went through this, I'm not sure what the best way to handle the situation is. However, I do know that the best response is not to attack the credibility of a woman who's voicing her concerns.
 
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@Affiche. That's not what I'm saying. I'm only saying that this conversation isn't only about shadowing. The OP told her story, and then asked what other people do in other situations, including both shadowing and at work, so it's okay for us to also talk about what you would do if this happened at work.

Since the OP doesn't have HR to go to, she pretty much has to either put up with it or find someone else to shadow.
 
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Oh, lol. "Eyeroll." You're referring to this post:



This post? In which I specifically point out that the experiences men have with sexual harassment are not the same as the "the kind of constant, low-level pestering that a lot of women are on the receiving end of"?

Yeah. Well done, dude. :laugh:

You claimed that, as a woman, you could understand OP and not Law2Doc. Not as a person who was victim of "constant, low-level pestering", but as a woman. That is literally what you said. And of course, the correlate is that Law2Doc cannot understand OP not because he isn't a victim of "constant, low-level pestering", but solely because he is a man.

It is factually evident that men are also victims of "constant, low-level pestering" (and that not every woman is), but it does not fit your narrative of the poor, oppressed lamb in a world of predators, so you choose to sweep it under the rug and deny the experience of every single male (perhaps Law2Doc among them) who has ever been harassed or abused.

I appreciate you changing the goalpost, though.
 
You claimed that, as a woman, you could understand OP and not Law2Doc. Not as a person who was victim of "constant, low-level pestering", but as a woman. That is literally what you said. And of course, the correlate is that Law2Doc cannot understand OP not because he isn't a victim of "constant, low-level pestering", but solely because he is a man.

It is factually evident that men are also victims of "constant, low-level pestering" (and that not every woman is), but it does not fit your narrative of the poor, oppressed lamb in a world of predators, so you choose to sweep it under the rug and deny the experience of every single male (perhaps Law2Doc among them) who has ever been harassed or abused.

I appreciate you changing the goalpost, though.

You. Are. Crazy. I'm not going to validate this nonsense by continuing to argue with you.
 
@Affiche. That's not what I'm saying. I'm only saying that this conversation isn't only about shadowing. The OP told her story, and then asked what other people do in other situations, including both shadowing and at work, so it's okay for us to also talk about what you would do if this happened at work.

Since the OP doesn't have HR to go to, she pretty much has to either put up with it or find someone else to shadow.
Gotcha, I understand.

I think there is value to this discussion but I wish people would stop cluttering it up with complaints about the OP or whether or not this discussion should exist. This is a very real issue that affects women in medicine and we don't always know how to handle it professionally, especially when we're at the bottom of the totem pole and unprotected.
 
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lol, this hair convo keeps reminding me of one of the strangest sketch moments in my life: I had a random drunk guy ask me for one of my hairs once, not even kidding. I was in sketchy circumstances at the time (alone travelling in a foreign country with little in the way of police) so I gave it to him. He took it, sniffed it, kissed it, then folded it up and put it in his pocket. Then he went back to trying to get me to join him in the local hotel (which, to add to the creep factor, had a sign in the front window advertising free pap smears). Thank heaven for friendly station workers!
Creepiest thing I ever saw was when I was in Poland. Was hanging out with a couple girls from the hostel, one of which was Chinese-American. We went to grab some kebab from this shop, and this guy behind the counter is like, "you are so beautiful, please, go on a date with me." But it wasn't just a simple request. As his son (the guy must have been in his 40s) continued to make our food, he keeps going on and on. And after we get our food and pay, he follows us for like two blocks down the street, complimenting her and begging her to give him a chance. The level of infatuation for a girl he'd literally never spoken to and had merely seen that was half his age was human skin lampshades levels of creepy.
 
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Creepiest thing I ever saw was when I was in Poland. Was hanging out with a couple girls from the hostel, one of which was Chinese-American. We went to grab some kebab from this shop, and this guy behind the counter is like, "you are so beautiful, please, go on a date with me." But it wasn't just a simple request. As his son (the guy must have been in his 40s) continued to make our food, he keeps going on and on. And after we get our food and pay, he follows us for like two blocks down the street, complimenting her and begging her to give him a chance. The level of infatuation for a girl he'd literally never spoken to and had merely seen that was half his age was human skin lampshades levels of creepy.

wow
 
Gotcha, I understand.

I think there is value to this discussion but I wish people would stop cluttering it up with complaints about the OP or whether or not this discussion should exist. This is a very real issue that affects women in medicine and we don't always know how to handle it professionally, especially when we're at the bottom of the totem pole and unprotected.
Exactly. Honestly, I think the existence of HR is little help. Yeah right, like there aren't going to be consequences if I get them involved.
I went to a talk recently about what it takes to succeed as a woman in surgery, and the doc was basically like "you have to be willing to just grin and bear it when people say incredibly sexist things or act inappropriately towards you, because if you do make an issue out of it, it will hamper your career."
 
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Creepiest thing I ever saw was when I was in Poland. Was hanging out with a couple girls from the hostel, one of which was Chinese-American. We went to grab some kebab from this shop, and this guy behind the counter is like, "you are so beautiful, please, go on a date with me." But it wasn't just a simple request. As his son (the guy must have been in his 40s) continued to make our food, he keeps going on and on. And after we get our food and pay, he follows us for like two blocks down the street, complimenting her and begging her to give him a chance. The level of infatuation for a girl he'd literally never spoken to and had merely seen that was half his age was human skin lampshades levels of creepy.

I've seen worse while backpacking in South America. Those men don't give up easily.
 
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Creepiest thing I ever saw was when I was in Poland. Was hanging out with a couple girls from the hostel, one of which was Chinese-American. We went to grab some kebab from this shop, and this guy behind the counter is like, "you are so beautiful, please, go on a date with me." But it wasn't just a simple request. As his son (the guy must have been in his 40s) continued to make our food, he keeps going on and on. And after we get our food and pay, he follows us for like two blocks down the street, complimenting her and begging her to give him a chance. The level of infatuation for a girl he'd literally never spoken to and had merely seen that was half his age was human skin lampshades levels of creepy.
Ugh.
For the record, I wasn't attempting to start a 'creepiest stories' war (not that I'm saying you are, either, I just don't want anyone to misconstrue things), it was just a super strange one I kept being reminded of given the convo at hand!

That's ridic, though...love lust at first sight, I guess?
 
I've seen worse while backpacking in South America. Those men don't give up easily.
I've heard Italians are the most notorious for this sort of thing. Following a girl down the street and doing this sort of thing is like, SOP in a lot of places in Italy. What got me about this guy though was that it was not at all compatible with the local culture, so it just came off as batshiat.
 
Ugh.
For the record, I wasn't attempting to start a 'creepiest stories' war (not that I'm saying you are, either, I just don't want anyone to misconstrue things), it was just a super strange one I kept being reminded of given the convo at hand!

That's ridic, though...love lust at first sight, I guess?
More like obsession at first sight. I've never seen anything like it, the look in his eyes was craaaazy.
 
Eh? Where was I talking about getting laid?

and why are you jumping down my throat? =/
The post I quoted of yours answers both questions, though I would hardly call this 'jumping down your throat'.
 
To summarize this thread:

From a woman's perspective, men are A-holes, who don't understand boundaries, and don't understand that they should never show any interest whatsoever in any woman they meet, no matter how attractive, unless they are 100% sure that there is no superior/subordinate type of relationship possible no matter how minor.

From a man's perspective, women are fragile butterflies who claim "rape" the second they meet a man who they don't find attractive, when they should be accepting dates and advances left and right from every man, because these men don't intend harm to the women they are trying to date, and besides, these women are asking for attention when they come into their presence looking so attractive.
 
To summarize this thread:

From a woman's perspective, men are A-holes, who don't understand boundaries, and don't understand that they should never show any interest whatsoever in any woman they meet, no matter how attractive, unless they are 100% sure that there is no superior/subordinate type of relationship possible no matter how minor.

From a man's perspective, women are fragile butterflies who claim "rape" the second they meet a man who they don't find attractive, when they should be accepting dates and advances left and right from every man, because these men don't intend harm to the women they are trying to date, and besides, these women are asking for attention when they come into their presence looking so attractive.

What about from a generic SDNer's perspective?
 
What about from a generic SDNer's perspective?
From the generic SDNer's perspective(pre-allopathic), this thread doesn't matter, they just want to get into medical school, and they don't care whether good advice comes from a man or woman, because usually you can't tell whether the advice is coming from a man or a woman unless you actually investigate the account that this advice is coming from.
 
From the generic SDNer's perspective(pre-allopathic), this thread doesn't matter, they just want to get into medical school, and they don't care whether good advice comes from a man or woman, because usually you can't tell whether the advice is coming from a man or a woman unless you actually investigate the account that this advice is coming from.

Great answer. You summarized the thread effectively from many directions :clap::clap:
 
What about from a generic SDNer's perspective?

look, a topic where I can be as pedantic as humanly possible and fulfill SDN's stereotype as being filled with neurotic, nitpicking pre-meds
 
To summarize this thread:

From a woman's perspective, men are A-holes, who don't understand boundaries, and don't understand that they should never show any interest whatsoever in any woman they meet, no matter how attractive, unless they are 100% sure that there is no superior/subordinate type of relationship possible no matter how minor.

From a man's perspective, women are fragile butterflies who claim "rape" the second they meet a man who they don't find attractive, when they should be accepting dates and advances left and right from every man, because these men don't intend harm to the women they are trying to date, and besides, these women are asking for attention when they come into their presence looking so attractive.
I disagree with both halves of this summary. You're exaggerating both sides to the point of ridiculousness, and playing up the gender stereotyping that both sides have tried to point out and reject when they came up.

Now, as a summary of SDN on gender stereotypes as a whole...
 
Nope. Hey, if you hate this thread so much, why are you still here?

I don't hate anything. Quite the opposite. I'm having too much fun from it and I want it to keep continuing... at maximal speed with the best audience possible

More of a touchpause13 kinda thread, tbh...

Would it be bad to tag her here?
 
I don't hate anything. Quite the opposite. I'm having too much fun from it and I want it to keep continuing... at maximal speed with the best audience possible



Would it be bad to tag her here?
I don't personally like to tag people...always felt demanding to me. But that's very much a personal preference and not one I at all expect to be held by anyone else on SDN. :shrug:

I'm just saying that it's not like I had some specific reason for not tagging her, I just don't tend to tag anyone. If you want to, go for it.
 
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