If a girl is raped and refused emer contraceptives: Violation of Rights?

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batch5000 said:
How do you know if you like abortion or not if you have never even tried it? Just give it a chance and you might love it.
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I have tried it. Twice. And let me tell you, the D+C is WAY easier on Mom than the three flight stairs is. Though less fun for me
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OveractiveBrain said:
I have tried it. Twice. And let me tell you, the D+C is WAY easier on Mom than the three flight stairs is. Though less fun for me
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dafuq-did-i-just-read-meme.jpg
 
GvGKen said:
And an infant can form care relationships, feminists ethics uses the relationship of a mother and infant to typify a care relation which is at the foundation of the ethical theory.

Edit: Blah, it shows I haven't written anything in a while
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depends on the definition of relationship. Not to belittle the experiences of mothers, but for the sake of argument: I could love a rock and defend it with my life. Does this mean that rocks are capable of forming relationships? The mother/child relationship is largely unidirectional at the early stages.
 
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SpecterGT260 said:
depends on the definition of relationship. Not to belittle the experiences of mothers, but for the sake of argument: I could love a rock and defend it with my life. Does this mean that rocks are capable of forming relationships? The mother/child relationship is largely unidirectional at the early stages.
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Fetus compared to a rock...

What has been read cannot be unread.
 
Laura JC said:
Same thing happened to me with MCP. I got a letter from WSU saying that I was still listed as accepted at MCP, so I contacted WSU, restated my intentions, and they told me that AMCAS was a little slow catching up, but they would keep my letter on file and call MCP themselves if my name showed up on the list again. If you are waiting for another school besides GW, I would e-mail them and let them know that you in fact, are only holding one acceptance, regardless of AMCAS, you know---head it off at the pass. It will also serve to let the school know you are REALLY interested in being accepted off the waitlist. Can't hurt.
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If it's not defined as a person, why not?
 
SpecterGT260 said:
If it's not defined as a person, why not?
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A rock does not possess a metabolism. A rock is not capable of cellular reproduction. A rock does not have a genetic program. A rock does not demonstrate any sort of active interaction with its environment.

Hmm, here you might say, "Of course a rock can't do those things! Those are tenets of LIFE, silly Papist."

"Haha Specter, you're right. I wonder what is capable of those things - while also demonstrating a chemical uniqueness and undergoing constant development?"

"Ummm, a fetus?"

";-)"
 
Well I have a lot of cells in my body - all of them are unquestionably alive - but we don't obsess over it if I lose a few.
 
Papist said:
A rock does not possess a metabolism. A rock is not capable of cellular reproduction. A rock does not have a genetic program. A rock does not demonstrate any sort of active interaction with its environment.

Hmm, here you might say, "Of course a rock can't do those things! Those are tenets of LIFE, silly Papist."

"Haha Specter, you're right. I wonder what is capable of those things - while also demonstrating a chemical uniqueness and undergoing constant development?"

"Ummm, a fetus?"

";-)"
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Nobody is trying to say they aren't different. I'm just saying they are the same ;)

Its all about what side of the arbitrarily drawn line things fall.
 
Lokhtar said:
Well I have a lot of cells in my body - all of them are unquestionably alive - but we don't obsess over it if I lose a few.
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If those other cells in your body possessed a unique DNA and were capable of developing into a completely independent & functional human being, there might be cause for an ethical discussion when you decide to get rid of those cells.
 
Papist said:
If those other cells in your body possessed a unique DNA and were capable of developing into a completely independent & functional human being, there might be cause for an ethical discussion when you decide to get rid of those cells.
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Again, nobody is saying there isn't a case for ethical discussion. If that were true we would all look pretty silly for being here having an ethical discussion on it, wouldn't we? ;)
 
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Papist said:
If those other cells in your body possessed a unique DNA and were capable of developing into a completely independent & functional human being, there might be cause for an ethical discussion when you decide to get rid of those cells.
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Well they can't develop into a completely independent human being by themselves. Need lots of help from another human being. No more different than a sperm.
 
Lokhtar said:
Well they can't develop into a completely independent human being by themselves. Need lots of help from another human being. No more different than a sperm.
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Think whatever you need to think in order to rationalize it :rolleyes:

One develops into an independent human being.

The other goes on a rag that you'll hide under your bed.
 
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My sperm, with help, will become an independent human being. Same as a fertilized egg.
 
Plus, I'm not rationalizing anything - even if I believed it was a full human being with rights - I'd still support abortion because it's a parasite on a woman's body and she has the right not to have to carry it to term against her will.
 
Lokhtar said:
Plus, I'm not rationalizing anything - even if I believed it was a full human being with rights - I'd still support abortion because it's a parasite on a woman's body and she has the right not to have to carry it to term against her will.
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Ahhh! The world must know about these parasites that can infect women.

Be sure to share that knowledge with every pregnant woman you meet while on your OB rotation.
 
Papist said:
Ahhh! The world must know about these parasites that can infect women.

Be sure to share that knowledge with every pregnant woman you meet while on your OB rotation.
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"MS-0"
"Medical Student"

misc-jackie-chan.svg
 
Papist said:
Ad hominem.
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I was just introduced in another thread to burnetts law. I think SDN needs another with the likelihood of someone throwing out a latin catch phrase approaching 1 ;)

Either way, I either had the choice to pick on your for something irrelevant or discuss the probable level of exposure to anything you have had in which you are not aware of how common the "parasite" analogy is....

it is also not ad hominem to consider someone with zero experience to be inexperienced ;) that was intentionally redundant btw
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I was just introduced in another thread to burnetts law. I think SDN needs another with the likelihood of someone throwing out a latin catch phrase approaching 1 ;)

Either way, I either had the choice to pick on your for something irrelevant or discuss the probable level of exposure to anything you have had in which you are not aware of how common the "parasite" analogy is....

it is also not ad hominem to consider someone with zero experience to be inexperienced ;) that was intentionally redundant btw
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U mad?

Winky faces are directly proportional to passive aggressiveness.
 
Papist said:
Ahhh! The world must know about these parasites that can infect women.

Be sure to share that knowledge with every pregnant woman you meet while on your OB rotation.
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???

The fetus gets nutrients and support from a host body to sustain itself and grow to maturity. Most times, it's a great thing because the mother wants the baby, which is fine and fantastic. I don't see why that implies that a woman ought to be forced to put up with it when she doesn't want to.
 
Lokhtar said:
???

The fetus gets nutrients and support from a host body to sustain itself and grow to maturity. Most times, it's a great thing because the mother wants the baby, which is fine and fantastic. I don't see why that implies that a woman ought to be forced to put up with it when she doesn't want to.
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This is probably derailing the thread much more than necessary.

There are obvious ethical objections to abortion that should - at the very least - give pause to those advocating for abortion.

The pro-life objection would be that the mother's desires to not be inconvenienced do not outweigh another's right to life.

Arguable? Okay, sure.

Do they have a point that should be considered? Yes.
 
your major argument seems to be that anyone who disagrees with you is dismissing your argument completely and has not given it proper consideration - thereby implying that nobody could possibly disagree with you if they have actually thought the situation through.

Genius!
 
Though, if pregnancy worked like an influenza infection and the mother played no conscious role in it, I'd advocate for abortion on demand.

But, it doesn't happen that way. We all know the answer to the panicked woman's question: "How did this happen?!" Sex comes with consequences.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
your major argument seems to be that anyone who disagrees with you is dismissing your argument completely and has not given it proper consideration - thereby implying that nobody could possibly disagree with you if they have actually thought the situation through.

Genius!
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Yes, bingo.
 
Papist said:
Though, if pregnancy worked like an influenza infection and the mother played no conscious role in it, I'd advocate for abortion on demand.

But, it doesn't happen that way. We all know the answer to the panicked woman's question: "How did this happen?!" Sex comes with consequences.
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And what if she was raped or the victim of some family cult that brainwashed a 16 year old into having sex with her uncle? What then?

If you stick by your black and white attitude you had better say no abortion.
 
Papist said:
Though, if pregnancy worked like an influenza infection and the mother played no conscious role in it, I'd advocate for abortion on demand.
.
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How literal are you being with the word "conscious"
 
dr zaius said:
And what if she was raped or the victim of some family cult that brainwashed a 16 year old into having sex with her uncle? What then?

If you stick by your black and white attitude you had better say no abortion.
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Rape and incest account for less than 2% of all abortions. When forming my conscience, I tend to consider the rationale behind the vast majority of abortions.
 
dr zaius said:
John doesn't live inside of Suzzie for 9mo and completely alter the rest of Suzzie's life, either.
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In rape situation: Yes , ofcourse.
Other situations : Hell ,No.... You made a decision to have sex .... and then you didn't use protection ... thereby you should take responsibilty for your actions.



Lokhtar said:
Well I have a lot of cells in my body - all of them are unquestionably alive - but we don't obsess over it if I lose a few.
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It's not about if you lose some cells or not .... It's about how you lose those cells and what they will yield ((with no intervention)) and whether you have the right to end the life of these specefic cells or not.

According to your argument ... Incest should be okay/legalized ..... i mean one " is only losing few cells " and one's very close relative has the right to control her own body ..... so where is the problem?
 
MedSensation said:
In rape situation: Yes , ofcourse.
Other situations : Hell ,No.... You made a decision to have sex .... and then you didn't use protection ... thereby you should take responsibilty for your actions.





It's not about if you lose some cells or not .... It's about how you lose those cells and what they will yield ((with no intervention)) and whether you have the right to end the life of these specefic cells or not.

According to your argument ... Incest should be okay/legalized ..... i mean one " is only losing few cells " and one's very close relative has the right to control her own body ..... so where is the problem?
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What?
 
dr zaius said:
You didn't answer the question.
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The situations you mentioned are much tougher. My anecdotal testimony would do little to further the conversation. Though I'd say (through my teeth) that abortion in those circumstances still claims the life of an innocent person and is wrong, but it's fruitless to flame me on such a stance (the flame war will probably ensue anyway).

IMO, it's much more valuable for the purposes of a discussion on ethics to consider the rationale of 98% of the women who have abortions.
 
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In a perfect world, if two people consent to having sex, they should be prepared to accept the lack of guarantee inherent in all contraceptive methods and the consequences (*cough* kid *cough) that may follow.

Unfortunately, this is a far from perfect world.

Regarding the average therapeutic abortion: if two consenting people have sex, it seems a bit ridiculous for the woman to later be all like, "Oh noes! I'm pregnant! I don't know how that happened...." If you aren't at a place in life where you could potentially support a child, or at least carry it to term and give him/her up for adoption, you probably shouldn't be fooling around. Sex is fun, yes, but is it a right? It feels good, to be sure...but it can have consequences, as do many life choices. It seems to me that the whole attitude of, "gosh, I really want to have sex, but if I get pregnant I'll just abort the kid" is a bit irresponsible. No one, in this scenario, forced you to have sex. You chose to do so, knowing that anything short of a hysterectomy is no guarantee. In my opinion, you should then be prepared to accept the results of your choice.

It is easy to simply dehumanize the mass of cells that forms after the union of a ovum and sperm by calling it an embryo. But we must remember that this mass of cells is not just any old embryo; it is not a gorilla embryo or a (insert random animal here) embryo, it is a human embryo. Given the chance, it will develop into a human being. We must be careful when we say that the embryo is not human, or alive, or what have you, based on the fact that it cannot care for itself, think for itself, reciprocate, etc. Is not the fact that it is human enough? If the definition of humanity is reduced to performance-based indicators, we have fallen down a slippery slope, particularly when it comes to end of life care or those who are terminally ill/disabled. Someone in a coma may not be able to feel love or hate, and an elderly person may not be able to provide for themselves--are they then less human, and therefore disposable if they become a nuisance?

As it has been alluded to previously, pregnancies resulting from rape, etc., are a fairly rare occurrence. They do happen, though, and must be considered. In this case, however, I do not think it is the role of the ED physician to dictate whether the abortion should occur. Though I would personally recommend, depending on the situation, carrying the child to term and then giving him/her up for adoption if at all possible, that is not my choice to make. As with the administration of drugs like tPA, etc., I think that I would feel comfortable making the drug available and discussing with the patient risks, benefits, and ethical elements of the scenario, and letting them come to their own conclusion (or, as has been mentioned, providing a timely referral to a doctor who could accommodate their desires). It is not an acute situation, and the patient can therefore be the primary decision-maker in this scenario.
 
Papist said:
This is probably derailing the thread much more than necessary.

There are obvious ethical objections to abortion that should - at the very least - give pause to those advocating for abortion.

The pro-life objection would be that the mother's desires to not be inconvenienced do not outweigh another's right to life.

Arguable? Okay, sure.

Do they have a point that should be considered? Yes.
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Point considered and rejected. I understand the viewpoint, but pregnancy can be a dangerous situation that needs to be managed medically. I don't see the 'rights' of that group of cells outweighing the rights of the woman and her body.

MedSensation said:
It's not about if you lose some cells or not .... It's about how you lose those cells and what they will yield ((with no intervention)) and whether you have the right to end the life of these specefic cells or not.
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Well, it's not like I can just throw out some cells on the street and 9 months later, there'll be a baby. There is very much intervention that's needed on part of the mother's body for the cells to develop into a human being.

MedSensation said:
According to your argument ... Incest should be okay/legalized ..... i mean one " is only losing few cells " and one's very close relative has the right to control her own body ..... so where is the problem?
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I have no idea how you came here from where we started but I'll answer anyway - truthfully what two consenting adults do is none of my business, and I really don't see the need for the government to legislate against those things.
 
Lokhtar said:
I have no idea how you came here from where we started but I'll answer anyway
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That's where i came from:
Lokhtar said:
Well I have a lot of cells in my body - all of them are unquestionably alive - but we don't obsess over it if I lose a few.
Click to expand...
Lokhtar said:
Plus, I'm not rationalizing anything - even if I believed it was a full human being with rights - I'd still support abortion because it's a parasite on a woman's body and she has the right not to have to carry it to term against her will.
Click to expand...

Basically if a brother wanted to "lose some cells" with his sister and the sister wanted to "carry it to term" then there should be no problem as she should be able to decide over her own body.... Well there are reasons why that is neither legal nor okay ..... Those cells are considered as human life that will be jeopardy.

When a woman become pregnant it's not just "her own body anymore" ..It's hers and somebodyelse's body as well ... If you are not mature enough to decide whether you want a kid or not then you shouldn't be fooling around..... Again i'm not talking about rape situations or other sick cult stuff ... i'm talking about consensual sex.

I do however believe that in rape situations ... abortion option should be on the table when early weeks ... otherwise just carry it to term and give it for adoption ... And even in rape situations where the mother to be decided giving it up for adoption , i think that many change their minds once the baby is born as i believe that maternal bonds is stronger than the rape situation itself.

Lokhtar said:
truthfully what two consenting adults do is none of my business, and I really don't see the need for the government to legislate against those things.
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Well , i guess we have VERY different opinions on these issues.
 
I guess we do. I see no reason whatsoever why I have the right to tell two consenting adults that they can't have sex.
 
Not the one who started it :). And as much as I dislike something, I don't see how I have the right to tell anyone what to do with another consenting adult. I actually never got that line of argument from my religious friends when it came to things like gay marriage and such. It just makes no sense to me. But to each his own.
 
Lokhtar said:
Not the one who started it :). And as much as I dislike something, I don't see how I have the right to tell anyone what to do with another consenting adult. I actually never got that line of argument from my religious friends when it came to things like gay marriage and such. It just makes no sense to me. But to each his own.
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Incest window still open - hoping you'll close it on your own...
 
Not sure what that means...but OK.
 
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