If college is a place for you to teach yourself, why do we have to pay?

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SeekerofTruth

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I can buy all the books I need to become a pharmD. I can pay for the tests to prove I know everything. Why pay $30,000 a year to PCP just to go to classes where I'll be expected to teach myself the material?

Don't people think we are getting ripped off? Okay, I get it. We can't have our hands held throughout life. I know but do you ever go to a store and pay them for the service they DIDN'T give you?


Any advice on how to think outside the box on tests that have questions that we've never practiced the format for? I can do it, it just takes me way too long.

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I once had an idea to go on strike against dining services because meal plans (mandatory if you live in a dorm) were more expensive than the cost of each meal added together. Upon talking to my class, I saw that no one was interested.

Anyway, what can we do? I would love to request some transparency from the school and an audit of where our 6th year tuition goes, but that would pretty much make me unhirable after graduation. Of course it's a ripoff. Almost any private college is a ripoff.

Someone tried going the "tell the donors what the school is doing" route. The donors didn't really care.

I have talked to a Wilkes professor about the "active learning" (they have the same teaching model as USP) and apparently they're trying it out because it's been shown that liberal arts students do well in their classes using that model. Never been validated in pharmacy students or really in students of any health science. It's basically "throw whatever we can and hope something sticks and more people pass the NAPLEX".

And what do you know? By the time you start P2 when the active learning kicks in, they might change what they're doing altogether. It seems like the curriculum works slightly better this year than last year.

I should really stop commenting on these threads. They're making the school look bad, and therefore the students might look less prepared or less hirable, though we're just as well prepared to be pharmacists as any other respectable pharmacy school in the area.
 
WVU had big rants about this roughly 5 years ago

I also believe the same thing.

It's a complete scam. Just people being greedy, like every other problem in our society
 
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A few people in class have begun tapering their attendance because they feel that they could spend their time in better ways than having powerpoints read to them. I do sort of agree, but I'd rather have a professor read it to me to find out what's actually important out of the 100s of pages of materials we're handed.
 
A few people in class have begun tapering their attendance because they feel that they could spend their time in better ways than having powerpoints read to them. I do sort of agree, but I'd rather have a professor read it to me to find out what's actually important out of the 100s of pages of materials we're handed.

I dont think i've been to a lecture since last march
 
I respect the idea that we should teach ourselves and understand material enough to solve a problem on our own but the way it is done, it's preposterous. It seems to me that the goal is to intentionally flunk students and take all their money at the same time.

If you are not going to teach, don't take our money. Plain and simple but unfortunately, not all of us have the privilege of not having to go to college.
 
^ That's probably why so many countries have cheaper education. They are either less greedy or the people are not naive enough to let the education system kick them around.
 
Well not only that but many other countries subsidize or fully pay for education for many people.
 
US is supposed to be so great, education is so valued, and yet the government doesn't subsidize it. >.>
 
US is supposed to be so great, education is so valued, and yet the government doesn't subsidize it. >.>

False. The government does help to subsidize education. Pell Grant, state and community colleges, etc. State schools pay a certain amount per person if they reside in the state, hence out of state tuition costs since the state doesn't help.

We just don't get it for free.
 
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False. The government does help to subsidize education. Pell Grant, state and community colleges, etc. State schools pay a certain amount per person if they reside in the state, hence out of state tuition costs since the state doesn't help.

We just don't get it for free.

Yeah I know that much. What do other countries do differently?
 
You make my comments less dramatic, did I ever tell you that?

So sorry, I didn't realize you were going for legitimately helpful, I was going for smart***, like usual. You have to be a little faster than that if you want to beat me.
 
Yeah I know that much. What do other countries do differently?

Countries develop their government differently and fund things differently. The whole system is different, there isn't one or two things.

Look at Europe and their healthcare compared to ours, or France's education/healthcare system.

If you don't like how we do it here then write to someone who will help change it so they can wipe their *** with it and take money from lobbyists.
 
So sorry, I didn't realize you were going for legitimately helpful, I was going for smart***, like usual. You have to be a little faster than that if you want to beat me.

I think we responded at the same time, you just had less to say. Our timestamps are equivalent...
 
Countries develop their government differently and fund things differently. The whole system is different, there isn't one or two things.

Look at Europe and their healthcare compared to ours, or France's education/healthcare system.

If you don't like how we do it here then write to someone who will help change it so they can wipe their *** with it and take money from lobbyists.

Maybe one day. I am only 17 and I know that despite how much I know academic-wise, I know virtually nothing.
 
Yea it can get frustrating when you have professors that are piss poor at "teaching" the material, yet are insanely smart themselves. Here at Nova, we have a quite a few professors like that. I have basically taught myself Pharmacokinetics and Pharmaceutics this semester because the professors speak poor English and just read the powerpoints.

To add insult to injury, our Faculty harp on attendance and take attendance on a daily basis. If you miss too many classes, the Dean will send you a nice little email. Pretty frustrating stuff, especially when I am wasting my time being in certain classes just staring at powerpoints.
 
I'm completely in support of schools teaching you and not just learning by yourself. That said, part of what school is teaching you is the basics so that you can continue to learn by yourself.

First of all, I came from grad school, which is basically a job working on a research project so you can learn part of how to one day run a lab yourself. The whole time I was there working on my project, I was learning from my boss, the other people in the lab, and the people on my committee what was important and what was not. I learned what proper controls were and how experiments were basically worthless without them. I learned what was important to put in a lab book and what wasn't. I learned what areas in biology I needed to know about to better understand my project. I got practice writing papers, teaching classes, and proposing new directions for my project (and finding out from others what areas were more productive to pursue than others). If I were just working in a lab, I would have learned some of this, but not nearly to the same extent. Most people are lab techs because they don't want to do everything it takes to go to grad school.

Fast forward to pharmacy school. Yes, there are some pretty bad teachers. But I wouldn't really care to learn pharmacokinetics by myself. If I didn't have to learn it, I probably wouldn't. Exams are there to motivate you to learn and make sure you learn the correct stuff. How many people 'educate' themselves on some current event and get all the information wrong?

Plus, I wouldn't know where to begin to learn about some aspects of pharmacy, and by not having that direction that you get from school, it would take me ten times longer to figure out certain things. For example, I didn't have much in undergrad about the nervous system, so it's not my area of expertise. I had had this idea to look into blood pressure medications this summer, but I had no idea at the time that I would have first had to understand the difference between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. Starting with the medications would have been the wrong way to go and way more frustrating.
 
You can't learn everything through experience. You need to open a book and learn from that. I am so afraid of going to PCP and then flunking out despite all my efforts, and believe me when I say I work hard at school.
 
Yea it can get frustrating when you have professors that are piss poor at "teaching" the material, yet are insanely smart themselves. Here at Nova, we have a quite a few professors like that. I have basically taught myself Pharmacokinetics and Pharmaceutics this semester because the professors speak poor English and just read the powerpoints.

To add insult to injury, our Faculty harp on attendance and take attendance on a daily basis. If you miss too many classes, the Dean will send you a nice little email. Pretty frustrating stuff, especially when I am wasting my time being in certain classes just staring at powerpoints.

It is frustrating to pay all that tuition, but you are paying for lots you don't realize. Building and classroom space, staff that sets up rotations, etc. Plus, it's a lot harder to teach than you think. It takes time and effort to plan lessons and explain things, which many professors don't take the time to do.

And, not everyone in pharmacy school is at the same level of expertise. I got frustrated having to 'practice' taking a candy 'antibiotic' three or four times a day, but a lot of my classmates didn't realize how hard it is to remember to take a med when you're supposed to.

However, like I said above, there are some really bad teachers, and being read to off of badly designed Powerpoints is no way to learn. Forcing students to go to class is just stupid. We had one professor that would just read off his notes, which I couldn't pay attention to, so it was better to just study on my own time with his notes that he supplied. I find it useful most of the time to go to class, but sometimes, I do skip one class to study for another or even just to catch up on sleep (even if it does feel a bit like robbing Peter to pay Paul... ;)).
 
One of my favorite topics.

Yes. When you stop and think about it, I more or less spent $20,000 a year to have Powerpoints read to me. There are no concepts so difficult to grasp that it actually requires someone teaching you the material "live."

Rotations are worth the money, though. That's where the real education is.
 
One of my favorite topics.

Yes. When you stop and think about it, I more or less spent $20,000 a year to have Powerpoints read to me. There are no concepts so difficult to grasp that it actually requires someone teaching you the material "live."

Rotations are worth the money, though. That's where the real education is.
Yeah. I think I learned everything I needed to know about how to practice on rotations.
 
One of my favorite topics.

Yes. When you stop and think about it, I more or less spent $20,000 a year to have Powerpoints read to me. There are no concepts so difficult to grasp that it actually requires someone teaching you the material "live."

Rotations are worth the money, though. That's where the real education is.


PCP's $29,000 a year tuition for pre-pharm, $32,000 for years 3-5, and then $45,000 for year 6 seems outrageous just for having powerpoints read to us..Rotations are something else though.
 
False. The government does help to subsidize education. Pell Grant, state and community colleges, etc. State schools pay a certain amount per person if they reside in the state, hence out of state tuition costs since the state doesn't help.

We just don't get it for free.
quoted for truth. but also want to add this to the general discussion: Obama is cutting access to Pell Grants pretty drastically.

"WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's budget plan would cut $100 billion from Pell Grants and other higher education programs over a decade through belt-tightening and use the savings to keep the maximum college financial aid award at $5,550, an administration official said.

The first proposal would end the "year-round Pell" policy that let students collect two grants in a calendar year, with the second grant used for summer school. The official said the costs exceeded expectations and there was little evidence that students earn their degrees any faster.
The change would save $8 billion next year and $60 billion over a decade, the official said.

A second proposal would reduce loan subsidies for graduate and professional students. That would free $2 billion next year and save $29 billion over 10 years, according to the official.
"

Source
 
quoted for truth. but also want to add this to the general discussion: Obama is cutting access to Pell Grants pretty drastically.

"WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's budget plan would cut $100 billion from Pell Grants and other higher education programs over a decade through belt-tightening and use the savings to keep the maximum college financial aid award at $5,550, an administration official said.

The first proposal would end the "year-round Pell" policy that let students collect two grants in a calendar year, with the second grant used for summer school. The official said the costs exceeded expectations and there was little evidence that students earn their degrees any faster.
The change would save $8 billion next year and $60 billion over a decade, the official said.

A second proposal would reduce loan subsidies for graduate and professional students. That would free $2 billion next year and save $29 billion over 10 years, according to the official.
"

Source

That's really not too terrible. The cost of tuition for graduate students are typically inexpensive and/or covered by additional funding depending on the subject (although I'm mainly experienced in science field for this.) As for professionals, the idea for those schools would be that the few thousand extra in cash could be paid for either by loan forgiveness or the money made as the professional.

As for the summer aid for pell grant, that's not super serious either IMO. A lot of people who do that are one of the following:
-behind on classes they didn't pass the first time
- are trying to graduate a semester early (which isn't many people)
-are trying to get another major at the same time so 2 degrees for the price of one
-Taking classes irrelevant to the major or aren't necessary to graduate (a language, some business classes, communication, photography, study abroad, etc.)

With some slight exception in a few of the above mentioned, careful planning and doing what you need to do shouldn't affect your Pell. I'll be the first to say that I failed a semester's worth of classes because of family health circumstances but I'm not going to be upset that the government isn't going to pay for me to take those classes a second time. I either have to take an extra class each semester or pay for them myself (which isn't bad if I go to a community college.)

The Pell was still increased to 5500 which allows students to not have to pay money for the spring and fall (or less) and still provides it for 4 years. The government is wanting to make sure everyone can get at least a 4 year degree, and that the education afterwards you have hopefully done well enough (and did enough educated homework) to fund it yourself in some other way. Not only that but many places will help pay for your degree after a bachelors, particularly MS or MBA, but the bachelors helps get you into the door.

I like the idea of people being able to get at least a Bachelors from the help of the government. I feel that should be as common as a high school diploma and you should be paying about as much to do it. Undergrad typically doesn't matter where you go anyway, with a few exceptions depending on some programs you might want; usually the graduate/professional is where it matters more. But many places that didn't require a degree before are able to be more selective in the economy right now (I've seen some call centers require a BS/BA to go work there) so the bachelors is quickly starting to become the new GED/diploma.
 
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PCP's $29,000 a year tuition for pre-pharm, $32,000 for years 3-5, and then $45,000 for year 6 seems outrageous just for having powerpoints read to us..Rotations are something else though.

thats 200 large lump sum you have there just for tuition. Holy *****. Your numbers must be wrong.
 
thats 200 large lump sum you have there just for tuition. Holy *****. Your numbers must be wrong.

Yeah 29/yr for pre-pharm? **** that. My total cost of tuition before financial aid each year was only 5k. Pell covers that altogether so I didn't have to pay a damn cent for undergrad.
 
So, this school costs almost 200K in tuition alone? What about living expenses?
I would definitely have to do some rethinking....
 
Do you still want to go there for 6 years?

I want to go into pharmacy but my options are limited. I can go to Rutgers New Brunswick for four years as a chemistry major and then apply to a pharmacy school MORE further away from home which I don't want to do or go to PCP.

St. John's lost half my application so now I won't find out until March 15.
Albany is way too far.
Rutgers is insanely difficult to get into but if I do, it is where I am going.
 
You have some valid points, but..

"If college is a place for you to teach yourself, why do we have to pay?"

This statement is a fallacy. What evidence do you have to prove that college is a place for you to teach yourself?

The higher education system, I agree, is not perfect. However, I fully expect to pay for the education I am receiving. Rarely are things free in this world.
 
You have some valid points, but..

"If college is a place for you to teach yourself, why do we have to pay?"

This statement is a fallacy. What evidence do you have to prove that college is a place for you to teach yourself?

The higher education system, I agree, is not perfect. However, I fully expect to pay for the education I am receiving. Rarely are things free in this world.


This forum is my evidence. Showing powerpoints doesn't equate to teaching. Do I hope I am wrong and the way my college does it isn't as bad as I think it will be? Of course I do.
 
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Sounds like some of you have some awful teachers.

For most school it seems they take the approach where we have to do a lot of learning on our own. The same is true for mine.

But we have some great professors who really can teach as long as you keep up in the class and attend the lecture. Those professors really are helpful.
But of course we have some bad ones too that just read a powerpoint or copy out of the book. I'm sure they are very intelligent people in their field, but that doesn't make them a good teacher.

Fortunately this semester has been pretty good with our professors so far... Hopefully I didn't jinx myself, as we'll be changing professors for various courses pretty soon.
 
You are in high school and you think you are an expert on how college education is and is not supposed to function? Frigging genius... :rolleyes:
 
Wait, you guys don't get merit grants anymore? For us it's that price, minus 7k a year.

Try to get in the honors program, at least you'll save on books that way.

I got $5,000 a year for the first four years. It's not much. How do I get into the honors program and what does it entail?
 
Don't try to make me out to be something I'm not.

And what exactly are you 'not'? You sound like you have it all figured out, and you haven't even actually attended college yet, which I believe is the point of IndustryPharmD.

Yes, there's plenty of powerpoint reading in pharmacy school, but the guidance is there to make sure that you learn the right things and learn them at a decent pace. Some people don't actually need to attend class to do this, but for most it helps. I'm sure there's a few geniuses out there who don't even need school to learn, but statistically, you're probably not one of them.
 
And what exactly are you 'not'? You sound like you have it all figured out, and you haven't even actually attended college yet, which I believe is the point of IndustryPharmD.

Yes, there's plenty of powerpoint reading in pharmacy school, but the guidance is there to make sure that you learn the right things and learn them at a decent pace. Some people don't actually need to attend class to do this, but for most it helps. I'm sure there's a few geniuses out there who don't even need school to learn, but statistically, you're probably not one of them.

:thumbup:

Even if you try to teach yourself everything that's covered in a set of powerpoint slides, you're gonna get confused and have questions at some point.

If you look at a table of adrenergic receptors and their physiologic effects and you assume it's just a table for FYI and it shows up on the exam, well, you're out of luck.
 
There is no way that I can study only off the powerpoint slides for classes like infectious disease and think I will get an A. Our profs lecture on much more than what's on the slides. Some profs only put pictures on their slides :rofl: which means you HAVE to go to class if you want the info (or get the recorded lectures from a classmate). There are some "bad" profs but for the most part, I don't think I could teach myself all this material.
 
:thumbup:

Even if you try to teach yourself everything that's covered in a set of powerpoint slides, you're gonna get confused and have questions at some point.

If you look at a table of adrenergic receptors and their physiologic effects and you assume it's just a table for FYI and it shows up on the exam, well, you're out of luck.

I love receptors! :love:

It really depends on the person. I really do think I can learn more from the book than from some of my professors. One of my favorite pass times is to go over my professors notes and see if I can't explain it better than they. :smuggrin:

I'm such a nerd. :p
 
There is no way that I can study only off the powerpoint slides for classes like infectious disease and think I will get an A. Our profs lecture on much more than what's on the slides. Some profs only put pictures on their slides :rofl: which means you HAVE to go to class if you want the info (or get the recorded lectures from a classmate). There are some "bad" profs but for the most part, I don't think I could teach myself all this material.

Then what is all the hubbub about professors not teaching about?
 
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