Increasing Clout of Psychology Degrees

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3rd party huh? Oh that's comforting.

Prevarication at its best. I think I'll leave it at that. Hopefully others can put the pieces together. We are in the field of possessing the ability to interpret and analyze, so perhaps these skills will be put to good use.

Good day.

Uhm....for those curious, here is the process: https://help.studentdoctor.net/entries/465337-doctor-verification

For the record, I don't appreciate your accusation that I'm lying. I'm pretty sure anyone "putting the pieces together" will see that the vast majority of "regulars" on here do so because we care about the field and want to give back.

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Never stated any theories. I've quoted, asked, explained and responded.

Thank you for the link T4C. Again, I never questioned their credentials, I simply asked for their field of study. She refused to say that its anything beyond psychology and I am fine with that. I won't ask again or run a smear campaign. She apologized for the confusion and that is a start. I just urge people to be aware of the information given - something I don't think anyone can argue with . Given that this isn't a study, we can't check references and do background checks on authors.

As you stated...back to the question.
 
I apologize to OP...

Don't worry about it. I do appreciate it, but I don't need defending. I'm not blind to irony and hypocrisy that she was attempting to bring forth, but she is wrong, anyway. It was also not necessary to bring my program into it as it's completely irrelevant to the point and purpose of my OP. It was just a way to score points and look down her nose at someone.

In any case, I'm amazed at the lack of empathy I'm seeing in this entire thread. From the assumption I'm proposing and "entitlement" to a degree... to the type of Nelson laugh from the Simpsons at people who can do all the work but don't get a specific type of internship... and are left with $100k in debt, no degree, 5-7 years wasted,and nothing to show for it... the lack of empathy for this potential is unbelievable to me. It seems like it's coming from a place of judgment rather than an idea of understanding and preventing a unnecessary and unfortunate situation. The "haves" and the "maybe haves". The haves just... can't imagine a possible reason why people just... don't have. "Have you tried... you know... not being poor? It's easy!" In any case, the idea that I'm being soft because of this one thing that I'M LEAVING THE SAME... when everything else I've proposed is to make things more difficult, is absurd.
 
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Never stated any theories. I've quoted, asked, explained and responded.

Quoted, asked, explained, and responded....you left out accused.

Thank you for the link T4C. Again, I never questioned their credentials, I simply asked for their field of study. She refused to say that its anything beyond psychology and I am fine with that. I won't ask again or run a smear campaign. She apologized for the confusion and that is a start. I just urge people to be aware of the information given - something I don't think anyone can argue with . Given that this isn't a study, we can't check references and do background checks on authors.

As you stated...back to the question.

It is disingenuous to pretend that you were somehow slighted. If you are asking for transparency from others, I'd appreciate some from you. Your post was wholly accusatory and patently false. Backing it up with "be aware of the information given" is a crock. If you are going to try and claim some sort of "of course they will say that", you probably shouldn't post misleading/false information.
 
Don't worry about it. I do appreciate it, but I don't need defending. I'm not blind to irony and hypocrisy that she was attempting to bring forth, but she is wrong, anyway. It was also not necessary to bring my program into it as it's completely irrelevant to the point and purpose of my OP. It was just a way to score points and look down her nose at someone.

I know you didn't need defending - this was more for the future visitors.

Carry on...
 
In any case, I'm amazed at the lack of empathy I'm seeing in this entire thread. From the assumption I'm proposing and "entitlement" to a degree... to the type of Nelson laugh from the Simpsons at people who can do all the work but don't get a specific type of internship... and are left with $100k in debt, no degree, 5-7 years wasted,and nothing to show for it... the lack of empathy for this potential is unbelievable to me. It seems like it's coming from a place of judgment rather than an idea of understanding and preventing a unnecessary and unfortunate situation. The "haves" and the "maybe haves". The haves just... can't imagine a possible reason why people just... don't have. "Have you tried... you know... not being poor? It's easy!" In any case, the idea that I'm being soft because of this one thing that I'M LEAVING THE SAME... when everything else I've proposed is to make things more difficult, is absurd.

The assumption that we "laugh" at these individuals, is just that, an assumption. I imagine that most on here feel bad for them. At the same time, it's a choice. Your analogy is not a great one. Many who fall into the class of poverty in this country do not choose to be there. Many are born there, or have other unforeseen circumstances. MNo one is born into graduate education, no one is forced to attend a specific program. These are choices.
 
Quoted, asked, explained, and responded....you left out accused.



It is disingenuous to pretend that you were somehow slighted. If you are asking for transparency from others, I'd appreciate some from you. Your post was wholly accusatory and patently false. Backing it up with "be aware of the information given" is a crock. If you are going to try and claim some sort of "of course they will say that", you probably shouldn't post misleading/false information.


I believe I quoted correctly when I first asked (its all there!), and if you're not seeing inconsistencies in that story/post, you too are blind. If we read everything and fail to ask questions...well I just don't know. And as far as the trend of backing each other up - it's prevalent on SDN.

The transparency I requested was field of study or program type. I am in a APA PhD Program for the record...you want my house number too?
 
Don't worry about it. I do appreciate it, but I don't need defending. I'm not blind to irony and hypocrisy that she was attempting to bring forth, but she is wrong, anyway. It was also not necessary to bring my program into it as it's completely irrelevant to the point and purpose of my OP. It was just a way to score points and look down her nose at someone.

In any case, I'm amazed at the lack of empathy I'm seeing in this entire thread. From the assumption I'm proposing and "entitlement" to a degree... to the type of Nelson laugh from the Simpsons at people who can do all the work but don't get a specific type of internship... and are left with $100k in debt, no degree, 5-7 years wasted,and nothing to show for it... the lack of empathy for this potential is unbelievable to me. It seems like it's coming from a place of judgment rather than an idea of understanding and preventing a unnecessary and unfortunate situation. The "haves" and the "maybe haves". The haves just... can't imagine a possible reason why people just... don't have. "Have you tried... you know... not being poor? It's easy!" In any case, the idea that I'm being soft because of this one thing that I'M LEAVING THE SAME... when everything else I've proposed is to make things more difficult, is absurd.

I hope nobody would suggest that student already in program that are less likely to get them into APA internships should be stopped from graduating. I assumed that any policies would take into account the needs of people already in the pipeline.
 
The assumption that we "laugh" at these individuals, is just that, an assumption. I imagine that most on here feel bad for them. At the same time, it's a choice. Your analogy is not a great one. Many who fall into the class of poverty in this country do not choose to be there. Many are born there, or have other unforeseen circumstances. MNo one is born into graduate education, no one is forced to attend a specific program. These are choices.
Exactly. "Unforseen circumstances" are not limited to just your SES... they can affect everything, including internship opportunities. That's my point exactly. That's why I feel if students fought and jumped through all the higher hurdles that were proposed and they do it well up until that point, they should have options at the end of the program if an unforeseen circumstance were to arise.

If a student has to choose between an APA internship in Miami, and an APPIC internship close to home to take care of his mother who had a stroke, if he has the knowledge that APPIC has quality control measures for the internships at the same time taking the responsibility that he won't get any VA or teaching jobs, but will still be able to PP, then I think that option should be available to him. There are so many doors that can already slam on people that are ill prepared up until the very end, and rightfully so. I just don't think this necessarily has to be one of them.
 
I think that reform needs to happen at the doctoral level, but it should be tied to internship as well. Basically, I would suggest that APA match rates be tied to APA accreditation. You can require all of the hard science courses for undergrads all you want, but it isn't going to matter if the students who don't want those classes can get into an FSPS. They wouldn't even need a psychology major.
 
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I agree. There should be no non-accredited graduate programs or internships. A real profession would never allow this. Are there great non-accredited internships? Probably, but ultimately it doesn't matter.

Coming from an EdS in school psychology, where APA-based internships (especially in school settings) are the exception, I have seen the downfall of not screening internship sites and having high standards for them. While there is a rule that supervisors be licensed and have at least three years experience, that's about it, and there was a considerable difference between the quality of supervision some sites and clinicians provided compared to others when I spoke with my classmates. I heard everything from people whose supervisors expected them to work far, far more hours than their contract required (both on site and taking work home over the weekend) to people who had next to nothing to do and had stories like how one of their supervisor spent the day on Pinterest planning a birthday party for one of their children - this person couldn't produce a schedule for themselves, much less for an intern. I am not trying to bash the field/degree (I will defend both vehemently, in fact), but I have seen the reason why accountability and verification of quality training at internship sites is important for all parties involved. Otherwise that important step in training essentially becomes a rubber stamp, which is not doing us any favors if we want to be taken seriously as a field.
 
Coming from an EdS in school psychology, where APA-based internships (especially in school settings) are the exception, I have seen the downfall of not screening internship sites and having high standards for them. While there is a rule that supervisors be licensed and have at least three years experience, that's about it, and there was a considerable difference between the quality of supervision some sites and clinicians provided compared to others when I spoke with my classmates. I heard everything from people whose supervisors expected them to work far, far more hours than their contract required (both on site and taking work home over the weekend) to people who had next to nothing to do and had stories like how one of their supervisor spent the day on Pinterest planning a birthday party for one of their children - this person couldn't produce a schedule for themselves, much less for an intern. I am not trying to bash the field/degree (I will defend both vehemently, in fact), but I have seen the reason why accountability and verification of quality training at internship sites is important for all parties involved. Otherwise that important step in training essentially becomes a rubber stamp, which is not doing us any favors if we want to be taken seriously as a field.
I may be missing the meaning of your post. Are you supporting or not supporting the quote?
 
Exactly. "Unforseen circumstances" are not limited to just your SES... they can affect everything, including internship opportunities. That's my point exactly. That's why I feel if students fought and jumped through all the higher hurdles that were proposed and they do it well up until that point, they should have options at the end of the program if an unforeseen circumstance were to arise.

If a student has to choose between an APA internship in Miami, and an APPIC internship close to home to take care of his mother who had a stroke, if he has the knowledge that APPIC has quality control measures for the internships at the same time taking the responsibility that he won't get any VA or teaching jobs, but will still be able to PP, then I think that option should be available to him. There are so many doors that can already slam on people that are ill prepared up until the very end, and rightfully so. I just don't think this necessarily has to be one of them.

The thing is that not holding these programs accountable for their poor APA match rates keeps them enrolling as many students as they want, thus saturating the field. When the field gets saturated enough, even private practice positions can afford to be picky about internship credentials.
 
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I think that reform needs to happen at the doctoral level, but it should be tied to internship as well. Basically, I would suggest that APA match rates be tied to APA accreditation. You can require all of the hard science courses for undergrads all you want, but it isn't going to matter if the students who don't want those classes can get into an FSPS. They wouldn't even need a psychology major.
The sad thing is that APA has generally been unwilling to make match rate a meaningful part of accreditation, even when it's been recommended and strongly argued.
 
I may be missing the meaning of your post. Are you supporting or not supporting the quote?

I think accrediting internships is important. Sorry for the confusion - the thrust of my post was that lack of accreditation can lead to very poor quality training, including at the internship level.
 
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I think accrediting internships is important. Sorry for the confusion - the thrust of my post was that lack of accreditation can lead to very poor quality training, including at the internship level.
I totally agree!
 
Never stated any theories. I've quoted, asked, explained and responded.

Thank you for the link T4C. Again, I never questioned their credentials, I simply asked for their field of study. She refused to say that its anything beyond psychology and I am fine with that. I won't ask again or run a smear campaign. She apologized for the confusion and that is a start. I just urge people to be aware of the information given - something I don't think anyone can argue with . Given that this isn't a study, we can't check references and do background checks on authors.

As you stated...back to the question.
I've given my background as it's relevant to this argument. Again, my specific training background is complicated and would out me. A handful of SDNers--both staff and non-staff--know who I am IRL, so I'm not a troll.

I will say this: I've never personally been through internship match, though I've been closely involved in the process and worked with people closely on teir applications (all of whom have matched, btw, though I take almost no credit for that, as they were all pretty awesome to begin with)
 
The thing is that not holding these programs accountable for their poor APA match rates keeps them enrolling as many students as they want, thus saturating the field. When the field gets saturated enough, even private practice positions can afford to be picky about internship credentials.
I agree with you that programs should be held accountable for low APA internship rate. 100% agree. My argument is at the individual level, I don't think it's necessary.
 
I agree with you that programs should be held accountable for low APA internship rate. 100% agree. My argument is at the individual level, I don't think it's necessary.

But say every student at that program decides that they have a reason to stay local for internship and all of them take unaccredited internships, as an individual decision. The program would still get punished, wouldn't it?
 
Coming from an EdS in school psychology, where APA-based internships (especially in school settings) are the exception, I have seen the downfall of not screening internship sites and having high standards for them. While there is a rule that supervisors be licensed and have at least three years experience, that's about it, and there was a considerable difference between the quality of supervision some sites and clinicians provided compared to others when I spoke with my classmates. I heard everything from people whose supervisors expected them to work far, far more hours than their contract required (both on site and taking work home over the weekend) to people who had next to nothing to do and had stories like how one of their supervisor spent the day on Pinterest planning a birthday party for one of their children - this person couldn't produce a schedule for themselves, much less for an intern. I am not trying to bash the field/degree (I will defend both vehemently, in fact), but I have seen the reason why accountability and verification of quality training at internship sites is important for all parties involved. Otherwise that important step in training essentially becomes a rubber stamp, which is not doing us any favors if we want to be taken seriously as a field.
EdS students aren't eligible for APA/APPIC internships, though... Are you referring to school psych PhD/PsyD students?

School psych historically hasn't cared as much about APA internships as clinical or counseling, though they are getting more and more required for peds psych folk and, to a lesser extent, will help with some faculty jobs. I still advise school psych folks to take them if there is any possibility that they'll ever want to work outside the schools, as you can't "re-do" internship.
 
I've given my background as it's relevant to this argument. Again, my specific training background is complicated and would out me. A handful of SDNers--both staff and non-staff--know who I am IRL, so I'm not a troll.

I will say this: I've never personally been through internship match, though I've been closely involved in the process and worked with people closely on teir applications (all of whom have matched, btw, though I take almost no credit for that, as they were all pretty awesome to begin with)

Thank you for your contribution!

Although it is not my place to decide whether or not to accept your stance, I fully respect your privacy. I hope this example would still encourage people to take everything FWIW and to remain aware - again, something I think we can all agree on.
 
EdS students aren't eligible for APA/APPIC internships, though... Are you referring to school psych PhD/PsyD students?

School psych historically hasn't cared as much about APA internships as clinical or counseling, though they are getting more and more required for peds psych folk and, to a lesser extent, will help with some faculty jobs. I still advise school psych folks to take them if there is any possibility that they'll ever want to work outside the schools, as you can't "re-do" internship.

I wish there were more APA accredited school sites because it's unfortunate that there is only a handful out there (zoned in a couple states, e.g., Texas). I would like to pursue an APA internship, but my program requires 5th year internships to be in a school setting, which severely limits my choices. Does anyone know why there aren't more APA accredited school sites (perhaps related to school psych being a mostly masters/specialist level field)?
 
Thank you for your contribution!

Although it is not my place to decide whether or not to accept your stance, I fully respect your privacy. I hope this example would still encourage people to take everything FWIW and to remain aware - again, something I think we can all agree on.
This is some of the more interesting trolling I've seen on this site. Congratulations.
 
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Thank you for your contribution!

Although it is not my place to decide whether or not to accept your stance, I fully respect your privacy. I hope this example would still encourage people to take everything FWIW and to remain aware - again, something I think we can all agree on.

Yes, I'm sure my verified identity, the fact I've published with multiple SDNers, and years on this site is much more sketchy than your four months of posting. ;)
 
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EdS students aren't eligible for APA/APPIC internships, though... Are you referring to school psych PhD/PsyD students?

School psych historically hasn't cared as much about APA internships as clinical or counseling, though they are getting more and more required for peds psych folk and, to a lesser extent, will help with some faculty jobs. I still advise school psych folks to take them if there is any possibility that they'll ever want to work outside the schools, as you can't "re-do" internship.

Sorry, it's late and I'm not being terribly clear. My point was more that the lack of oversight in the internship process for EdS programs seems to lead to a WIDE variation in quality of supervision received and other aspects of training at internship sites . I was fortunate to be in a district with great supervisors and several administrators who were former SPs and valued our work. Others were not so lucky and had extremes ranging from unrealistic workloads to having very little to do. Having seen what can go wrong without checks and balances I appreciate why having the APA verify the quality of internship sites is important.
 
This is some of the more interesting trolling I've seen on this site. Congratulations.


Lol. I think it's mainly because it comes from a sincere place. If you gonna troll, do it with a cause.
 
I wish there were more APA accredited school sites because it's unfortunate that there is only a handful out there (zoned in a couple states, e.g., Texas). I would like to pursue an APA internship, but my program requires 5th year internships to be in a school setting, which severely limits my choices. Does anyone know why there aren't more APA accredited school sites (perhaps related to school psych being a mostly masters/specialist level field)?

Are you talking about sites specifically in schools or sites that take school psych students?
 
Yes, I'm sure my verified identity, the fact I've published with multiple SDNers, and years on this site is much more sketchy than your four months of posting. ;)

Lets still be aware of the inconsistencies though.
 
You've made your troll-y point. Thank you. The horse has been pulverized (inappropriately and unnecessarily).

It crazy coming from individuals who ask for evidence and it was presented -allbeit with some rather troll-y remarks. But you're right my point has been made and I'll stop beating the dead horse.
 
It crazy coming from individuals who ask for evidence and it was presented -allbeit with some rather troll-y remarks. But you're right my point has been made and I'll stop beating the dead horse.

Please quote. Otherwise, cool story, bro.
 
But say every student at that program decides that they have a reason to stay local for internship and all of them take unaccredited internships, as an individual decision. The program would still get punished, wouldn't it?
It sure would. Then it's up to the school to have some kind of system to handle that, but I don't think that'll be an issue because students will still prefer the APA internships for obvious reasons. So I think the number of students that do that will will be minimal and nowhere near all.
 
It sure would. Then it's up to the school to have some kind of system to handle that, but I don't think that'll be an issue because students will still prefer the APA internships for obvious reasons. So I think the number of students that do that will will be minimal and nowhere near all.
You do realize that a) a lot of FSPS attract students because they're in desirable cities and don't want to leave and b) some of these programs outright encourage non-APA internship because they know that their students likely won't match, right?
 
Ps. If anyone really, really feels a deep-seated desire to know my training background in detail, shoot me a PM. I'm happy to share it--hence how some SDNers know me IRL--just not where it will out me (i.e., on the forum itself). :)
 
You do realize that a) a lot of FSPS attract students because they're in desirable cities and don't want to leave and b) some of these programs outright encourage non-APA internship because they know that their students likely won't match, right?
You do realize this whole APA internship debate is based on the hypothetical where FSPS and diploma mills have already been eliminated, right?
 
You do realize this whole APA internship debate is based on the hypothetical where FSPS and diploma mills have already been eliminated, right?

Personally, I would still support the idea of requiring APA accreditation for all internship sites. As other posters have mentioned, it's a matter of ensuring a minimum standard of quality for the internship training. Even if an individual attends a quality graduate program, it's possible that they may still not be ready for completely independent practice by the time they're heading off to internship (some folks are, some aren't); the accreditation of the internship helps to ensure that the proper training resources and opportunities are in place to A) provide the experiences necessary for these folks to become independently-licensed practitioners, and B) just provide an adequate and appropriate experience for all trainees.

Being a member of my current VA's training program faculty, and having participated in the process while on fellowship and internship, I can say that just having to go through the processes of acquiring and maintaining APA accreditation truly does help to ensure some minimum level of resources and quality for the internship. For example, deciding that you want to add a specialty track or experience (or otherwise change the training environment) can't just be done because you've decided it's something that would be interesting and beneficial to trainees; you then need to essentially justify to APA how this is going to happen and what training resources will be available, which of course requires that you think about and set these things up ahead of time. Without accreditation, even if intentions were good, it's possible that such changes could occur without the necessary amounts of forethought and planning, and the trainees would be the ones ultimately suffering as a result.

The same processes apply to all sorts of other aspects of internship training, from what rotations will be offered, to where and how didactics will occur. Again, without a reason to have to plan ahead for these things and plan them out in sufficient detail beforehand, it's quite possible that they'd be setup in ways that wouldn't provide adequate trainee support.

If all internships were accredited, then folks of course wouldn't have the option of attending a non-accredited internship, regardless of circumstances. Thus, their degree could not end up being "worthless," and all psychologists would have APA-accredited training experiences at all levels.
 
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I find it pretty telling that in a thread about how to increase our status as psychologists that we end up again attacking each other. Do any of you realize how low the bar is for the average midlevel? Sure we need to continue to uphold high standards for our profession and APA accreditation needs to be part of that minimum standard, but when a student graduates from Alliant or Argosy and become licensed as one of my coworkers just did, they still represent the field of psychology to the public and we need to present a united front and support each other. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.
 
I find it pretty telling that in a thread about how to increase our status as psychologists that we end up again attacking each other.

What is it telling you? What I saw was a single troll derailing a conversation. When you state "we end up again attacking each other," it sounds like it was a free for all, and I don't think that's what happened. Yes, some people are more blunt or aggressive, but the problem lies with a single person in this case. I don't know that it says anything deep about our profession.
 
Meh, I saw it as debating points. Some points raised were untenable given certain restraints, so there was some education there. Some points and issues were challenged regarding their logical conclusions. I see nothing wrong with having to defend an idea and engaging in critical thinking whilst in discourse. It's becoming a lost art in our field in an age where we feel the need to validate everything someone says. We don't need to treat our professional debates like we treat our patients, it's not helpful.
 
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My point is that we, psychologists in general, spend too much time infighting and not enough working together toward a goal of improving our profession. I wasn't talking about the derailment which was an odd attack and pretty much irrelevant to anything IMO.

edit. To add, this is just my opinion and perspective, no I didn't research this or have any evidence to back it up.
 
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Do any of you realize how low the bar is for the average midlevel?

Yes, having a master's degree is such a low bar :p. actually, I agree with the idea that mid-level education is highly variable. It IS being addressed via multiple levels through current legislation and commercial insurance requirements. Such as Tricare requiring LPCs to graduate from an accredited program etc. I believe this is also a problem with education as a whole (degree inflation) I directly see this as a mid-level. if you'd like more ideas on how to effectively advocate for higher standards in mid-level education, I can give you some pointers :)

But!!!! I said all that to basically say as a mid-level we deal with some of the same issues of accreditation, quality, perception of the public that PhD levels do. Because part of the problem is how mental health is viewed as a whole. Not just how crappy your mid-levels are lol. We have the same problem with low-ball salaries etc.

Remember most of your midlevels aren't even technically part of the field of psychology. CACREP, COMAFTE, and ASWB oversee the majority of "your" midlevels. As psychology PhDs you are really going to have to make solid arguments on how separate professions (though they overlap in scope) are bringing down your practice and profession.

As a last bomb to throw out there as I leave, insurance companies are the real evil. As someone who worked in the industry, this really is a source of the problem.
 
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Yes, having a master's degree is such a low bar :p. actually, I agree with the idea that mid-level education is highly variable. It IS being addressed via multiple levels through current legislation and commercial insurance requirements. Such as Tricare requiring LPCs to graduate from an accredited program etc. I believe this is also a problem with education as a whole (degree inflation) I directly see this as a mid-level. if you'd like more ideas on how to effectively advocate for higher standards in mid-level education, I can give you some pointers :)

But!!!! I said all that to basically say as a mid-level we deal with some of the same issues of accreditation, quality, perception of the public that PhD levels do. Because part of the problem is how mental health is viewed as a whole. Not just how crappy your mid-levels are lol. We have the same problem with low-ball salaries etc.

Remember most of your midlevels aren't even technically part of the field of psychology. CACREP, COMAFTE, and ASWB oversee the majority of "your" midlevels. As psychology PhDs you are really going to have to make solid arguments on how separate professions (though they overlap in scope) are bringing down your practice and profession.

As a last bomb to throw out there as I leave, insurance companies are the real evil. As someone who worked in the industry, this really is a source of the problem.

I don't think anybody was arguing that midlevel professions are bringing down psych practice and profession. Psych is just doing a bad job of differentiating roles, responsibilities, and strengths.
 
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