Inpatient psychiatry Salary Question - Midwest

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psychresident14

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Hey all,

Just wanted to get your input. I got an offer for a small midwestern town inpatient position ~12-14 beds filled at a time depending on staffing. It includes a less than average bonus, receive bonus if meet quality metrics, etc. Besides that, the salary is only $250,000. My issue is that the they are requiring 10 weeknights for call coverage per month, which seems excessive. I think weekend rounding is extra pay. I'm from a small town, but this place is even smaller, ridden with crime and drugs, overall pretty run down, and has no psychiatrists as they use tele-psych. Wondering what your guys' thoughts are about how much you would counter? Also, wondering how much is more should be the premium be for working in a place that is not really desired.

The other places I've interviewed are more hip, definitely a lot more upscale, safer, and more activities to do around gave offers around $275,000 base for a similar inpatient with a large $100,000 sign on bonus. Thanks in advance for your response!

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You can't really name one thing about this job that makes it as attractive as your other offers. What do you like about this position that makes you seriously consider it?

It's hard to conceive they could go enough over 275k to overcome their disadvantages in location, call, sign on bonus, etc.
 
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I'm currently moonlighting there, so what I currently like about it so that I can probably make changes to the system to make it better. Also, the nurses seem to be more independent compared to the University setting I'm in now and other private hospital I'm moonlighting.

When I interviewed at other states (West Coast), there was a pretty undesirable place that was offering a sizable salary with 100,000 sign on bonus, and $50,000 bonus yearly after that up to 10 years, for total of $600,000 in retention bonuses.

So wondering if countering $300,000 would be reasonable since they require 10 week nights of call a month and undesirability of location. The hospital is owned by a large corporation that manages many other hospitals.
 
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Man (or woman), I'd counter with $400k. That job sounds like a steaming pile of crap.
 
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Thanks for your input. Never negotiated before, so just wasn't sure if asking for significantly more makes it seem like I'm too greedy. Then again, I feel that they will never really ever find an actual physical psychiatrist willing to work there.
 
Thanks for your input. Never negotiated before, so just wasn't sure if asking for significantly more makes it seem like I'm too greedy. Then again, I feel that they will never really ever find an actual physical psychiatrist willing to work there.

So it sounds like you'd consider it because you have familiarity with it. What do you think the other places would look like hypothetically if you were moonlighting there now? Would it put them on equal/unequal ground compared to the others purely on work? If you had the same kind of familiarity and comfort at other places as you do there, would you still consider this place?
 
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Who cares if you look greedy? Worst case scenario, they reject your counter offer and keep the status quo. Thats a lot better than settling for a garbage job for less than you're worth. All that matters is that you get compensated for what the job is worth to you. It would take ridiculous amounts of money to compensate for 10 week nights of call a month (that's basically every other night) and living in a Midwest armpit.

Also dealing with all the administrative BS of running a rural psych unit sounds miserable enough. Good luck with vacation/sick coverage, staffing, etc.
 
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I think familiarity with the system makes me more inclined to work there. I'm not sure what I think hypothetically but possibly I'd do okay at those places as well. Just worried that I may not end up liking the system, since I really dislike the other hospital I'm moonlighting at, with 30% less pay. I think if the hospital were definitely in a much better location and not 99% Trump supporters, I would take the job but for least $280k maybe but then again, I would hate being on call coverage for two 5-day weeks. It would feel like I'm working 2 weeks off the month nonstop without a break from work. I expected them to provide me with a huge offer since the moonlighting offer they gave me was pretty substantial.
 
Do you actually want to work there? You are crazy. Here's the thing about negotiations. You can ask for whatever you want. But no one cares about that unless 1) they are convinced you will actually take the job given the right offer and 2) you can justify what you are asking for

How do you justify it?

1. you show them what you are worth by showing them your others offers. Because this is so geographically dependent, they may only be interested in other local offers because you are going to find higher paying gigs in somewhere like california (though probably in the less desirable areas). If others places in the area are paying lower (often academic centers drive down salaries across town for example) they might think the offer is reasonable
2. you need to know what you are worth. This means calculating the wRVUs for 12-14 patients, and also factoring in that they need a psychiatrist to function and generate revenue from facility fees, and possible lab testing, referrals to other specialties etc.
3. You need to find out how much roughly they are paying for telepsych. Remember they will be paying the telepsych company quite a bit more than what the psychiatrist makes. If you are asking for alot more than what they are putting on telepsych, and they have had no negative consequences from using this, they may not be disposed to pay much more for an in-person psychiatrist
4. you need to understand what barriers there might be to a higher salary, and create "pockets" for additional revenue and benefits (for example vacation time, sick leave, paid maternity/paternity leave, productivity bonuses, relocation allowance, CME funds) or negotiating ramps (for example will your salary be fixed, or can you negotiate a ramp so over 3 years your salary goes up by x%
5. in terms of undesirability - that in itself does not transform into a considerable salary bump. Things to consider are the cost of placing job adverts, paying recruiters, interviewing people, going through the whole expensive process, and then the potential of not being able to retain and go through the whole process. You need to be mindful of this and use this as a justification for a pay bump. The issue is the fact that you already moonlight there hurts you, as they are thinking "well he doesn't think it's undesirable if he works here already" so you need to shift from undesirability to thinking in terms of cost savings from recruitment and retention. the other thing is moonlighters get paid more because you are not salaried so no benefits, you pay both contributions of taxes, they are more desperate for coverage. salaried employers will get paid significantly less (though should be in part offset by other things).
6. negotiations are a collaborative process. It's best not to think of it as just a salary thing, as there are often things just as (if not more) important. you need to sketch out your vision of what it is you want. Rather than saying "I want 400k or whatever" (which you can do, but is not going to get you what you want), it is better to not lock yourself in. Present them with your other offers, and the above arguments based on the data you have about how much you are worth and how much better it would be for them to have someone who is going to stay and is a known entity, and have them see what they can do. At that point you can make a counter offer. Now it might be reasonable to make a counter offer at this point but the person with the most power is always the person who is not committing to any particular offer.
7. If you face resistance, ask "help me to understand what the barriers are to this, and what I can do to persuade you of why what I'm asking for makes good financial and practical sense"

As psychiatrists we are lucky in that the job market is pretty good (insofar as there lots of job, most of the actual jobs aren't all that great) so we have more negotiating power than many other specialties. However most physicians are terrible at negotiating, and many of the "rules" of negotiations don't apply to psychiatrists. For example, doctors are often told not to ask for things until later in the negotiation, but for psychiatry I woudn't waste your time with a job you wouldn't be interested if the work wasn't x or the salary isn't y. You can and should absolutely clarify what is important up front (but always be ever so polite about it, especially if it is an person/organization you may wish to work for at some point in the future). Don't be a douchebag just because you can (and for many jobs you probably can).
 
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I am making well over 250K for taking one night of pager call a month. One night, not 10! No way in hell I'd take this job unless they agree to pay substantially more or cut the call expectations. I think I probably would ask for 400k and walk away if they counter with less than 350K (unless this was a job in a great location or some other factor made up for the distinct downsides)

Don't worry about seeming greedy. If they don't think you're worth it they can always say no. Any given job needs you more than you need them so don't settle for something crappy. That's the beauty of doing a job that nobody (relatively) else wants to do.
 
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Thanks for all your input everyone. I do wonder how much hospitals typically pay telepsychiatry companies to run inpatient psych units.

They didn't really give me a contract but more so a draft term sheet offer, so they didn't even specify how much vacation, sick, paternity leave I get. They did give me the amounts for relocation which I don't really need since I'd rather drive there (although takes 1+ hour) and stay in a hotel when I don't feel like making the drive home. Also, they gave me the CME funds and days which is typical of other places.

They did specify the bonus for quality process metrics, which is something I can believe I can achieve.

They did also indicate a yearly wRVU bonus but ONLY if I meet "incentive potentials" which I'm not fond about -- having to attend and participate most staff meetings, presenting multiple educational sessions throughout the year that must last at least an hour long, playing active roles with providers and communities at least twice a month. I feel that this is sort of ridiculous. Am I right or is this pretty typical that in order to get wRVU bonus, I must meet these other standards? What do you guys think?
 
They did also indicate a yearly wRVU bonus but ONLY if I meet "incentive potentials" which I'm not fond about -- having to attend and participate most staff meetings, presenting multiple educational sessions throughout the year that must last at least an hour long, playing active roles with providers and communities at least twice a month. I feel that this is sort of ridiculous. Am I right or is this pretty typical that in order to get wRVU bonus, I must meet these other standards? What do you guys think?
well attending staff meetings is probably part o your job description. the other stuff should not be part of a productivity bonus as its not productive. if they want to you to do that stuff that is additional leverage vs. telepsych (what telepsychiatrist is going to do it) but it goes into your contract as part of your duties and they will have to pay you for it.
 
I am making well over 250K for taking one night of pager call a month. One night, not 10! No way in hell I'd take this job unless they agree to pay substantially more or cut the call expectations. I think I probably would ask for 400k and walk away if they counter with less than 350K (unless this was a job in a great location or some other factor made up for the distinct downsides)

Don't worry about seeming greedy. If they don't think you're worth it they can always say no. Any given job needs you more than you need them so don't settle for something crappy. That's the beauty of doing a job that nobody (relatively) else wants to do.
In what approximate geographical region is that job offered in?

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Besides that, the salary is only $250,000. My issue is that the they are requiring 10 weeknights for call coverage per month, which seems excessive. I think weekend rounding is extra pay.
The other places I've interviewed are more hip, definitely a lot more upscale, safer, and more activities to do around gave offers around $275,000 base for a similar inpatient with a large $100,000 sign on bonus. Thanks in advance for your response!

This is a crappy offer that you should not take. 10 weeknights+weekend call + driving 1hr in middle of nowhere and its $250k?
What is it about this place compared to other jobs that you are attracted to?
Is this is southern Ohio?
If you are willing to bust your back doing all this call you should keep looking and find at least $300k job (with $20-4ok/yr student loan repayment).
What was your call like in residency? I would guess it was not 10weeknights/month. Do you think you can last in a job like this?

--Also, keep in mind that even if you accept an offer things sometimes do not go well in contract negotiations and don't be afraid to walk away.

--I want to ask folks out there what they think about accepting 2 job offers at one time and see how contract negotiations work out (just so you are not stuck if something doesn't work out).
 
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--I want to ask folks out there what they think about accepting 2 job offers at one time and see how contract negotiations work out (just so you are not stuck if something doesn't work out).
This is bad. When you accept an offer you are promising to enter negotiations in good faith, and having accepted another offer certainly doesn't meet that criteria. It's not as big of a world as you may think, so you don't want to go around breaking promises.
 
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This is bad. When you accept an offer you are promising to enter negotiations in good faith, and having accepted another offer certainly doesn't meet that criteria. It's not as big of a world as you may think, so you don't want to go around breaking promises.

I agree, but...if the jobs are in different parts of the country, maybe? What is the likelihood that 2 different jobs would be offered simultaneously anyway? There is usually some give and take on these things, and until the contract is satisfactory to both parties, there is no obligation. If you can walk away at any point, you have no firm offer and acceptance.

You might be upfront and tell them you have multiple offers on the table, too.
 
--I want to ask folks out there what they think about accepting 2 job offers at one time and see how contract negotiations work out (just so you are not stuck if something doesn't work out).
you work out the contract negotiations BEFORE you accept an offer. There is nothing wrong with entering into multiple negotiations at the same time, but once you have accepted an offer it's too late to negotiate, you've already played your hand.
 
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My job is located in a medium-sized city in the midwest. It may not be a "hot" destination, but it is decent.

Yeah, there is no reason to accept two jobs since you should have done all the negotiation before accepting the job. If you did try to back out after accepting the job, then I do think there is a risk it could get back to the wrong people. Many psychiatrists will have friends in the biz from all over the country - friends who moved elsewhere after residency, friends they've met at conferences, friends who used to work in one location and then relocated. Don't burn bridges!
 
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The productivity bonuses based on you being a good monkey and jumping through hoops is a new one for me. I always recommend that people consider the job with the assumption that they won't get any bonuses since there are a hundred ways to avoid paying them, and no real downside for the administration once you've already signed a contract and are locked it.
 
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you work out the contract negotiations BEFORE you accept an offer. There is nothing wrong with entering into multiple negotiations at the same time, but once you have accepted an offer it's too late to negotiate, you've already played your hand.

What about in situations where there are multiple interviews (example 4-5) (and the interviews happen weeks apart, first phone/skype interview followed by in-person invite 3-4 weeks out). Then offers are received at different times. Also these offers have deadline to respond. Say you accepted one offer but a much better offer comes in later due to the way interviewing process worked out? There are situations where hoping to get a better offer is just not an option (I experienced this as a graduating resident, as I needed to have a job to support my family and pay off loans).
 
What about in situations where there are multiple interviews (example 4-5) (and the interviews happen weeks apart, first phone/skype interview followed by in-person invite 3-4 weeks out). Then offers are received at different times. Also these offers have deadline to respond. Say you accepted one offer but a much better offer comes in later due to the way interviewing process worked out? There are situations where hoping to get a better offer is just not an option (I experienced this as a graduating resident, as I needed to have a job to support my family and pay off loans).
I'm not sure what you are asking. It is totally fine to negotiate multiple job offers at the same time. The issue is you cannot ACCEPT multiple offers. The negotiations should be happening before (you can't negotiate once you've accepted the job usually and shouldn't expect to). In terms of responding, here's the thing - you should only say you are interested in jobs that you would be willing to accept. However clearly you need to discuss the terms of the jobs and salary/benefits etc before accepting. So you can commit to accepting a job you are interested in provisionally, based on how negotiations go. In fact you kind of have to do this as no one is going to be interested in negotiating with you if they don't think you're gonna take the job. But don't commit to accepting anything (either orally or in writing) until you are satisfied with what is being negotiated.

Also in terms of exploding offers - you need to know how much leverage you have. Usually if you are given a narrow time limit to accept, it's to a manipulative trick to lock you down rather than because they can easily fill it. So if you know the job has been vacant for a while you can certainly call their bluff. Its always a risk of course. Remember also, part of the negotiations include negotiating how much time you have to accept the offer. Also, not giving into taking an offer under pressure puts the ball in their court to sweeten the deal. Now there are certainly desireable psych jobs that others will pounce on particularly in saturated markets, but overall psychiatrists have it quite good compared to others and don't have to feel pressured into accepting something out of fear.
 
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I'm not sure what you are asking. It is totally fine to negotiate multiple job offers at the same time. The issue is you cannot ACCEPT multiple offers. The negotiations should be happening before (you can't negotiate once you've accepted the job usually and shouldn't expect to). In terms of responding, here's the thing - you should only say you are interested in jobs that you would be willing to accept. However clearly you need to discuss the terms of the jobs and salary/benefits etc before accepting. So you can commit to accepting a job you are interested in provisionally, based on how negotiations go. In fact you kind of have to do this as no one is going to be interested in negotiating with you if they don't think you're gonna take the job. But don't commit to accepting anything (either orally or in writing) until you are satisfied with what is being negotiated.

Also in terms of exploding offers - you need to know how much leverage you have. Usually if you are given a narrow time limit to accept, it's to a manipulative trick to lock you down rather than because they can easily fill it. So if you know the job has been vacant for a while you can certainly call their bluff. Its always a risk of course. Remember also, part of the negotiations include negotiating how much time you have to accept the offer. Also, not giving into taking an offer under pressure puts the ball in their court to sweeten the deal. Now there are certainly desireable psych jobs that others will pounce on particularly in saturated markets, but overall psychiatrists have it quite good compared to others and don't have to feel pressured into accepting something out of fear.

I can't like this enough! Perhaps make it a sticky? That so many are clueless about negotiations when there is this level of commitment and amount of money on the line is unfortunate. Contract negotiations really should be incorporated in school curriculum.
 
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If an employer tries to demand an answer on an offer before you're ready to commit then you tell them "no". I actually did do that to one place. They're still looking for a psychiatrist now 2 years later (I still get recruiter emails). I don't think they expected me to call their bluff. Oh well.

Psychiatrists are in high demand almost everywhere. We hold the power here. I think many new grads forget this because our last experiences were of trying to convince med schools and (to a lesser degree) residencies that they should want us. The attending job search is all about finding an employer you like.

In most cases though these places understand you're looking at multiple offers and will be ok with it if you explain you need a little time.
 
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I can't like this enough! Perhaps make it a sticky? That so many are clueless about negotiations when there is this level of commitment and amount of money on the line is unfortunate. Contract negotiations really should be incorporated in school curriculum.
thanks! I think any residency program worth its salt does provide training in contract negotiations, private practice, the business of medicine etc. However academic programs are sort of incentivized to keep their residents ignorant so they accept the (often) crappy offers to join the faculty at below market rates, with little in the way of negotiation. also docs in academic medicine are not best placed to offer advice on negotiations as if they knew how to negotiate they wouldn't have ended up in academics (i kid, i kid) ;)
 
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Just got this...which is similar to the kinds of things I'm getting these days in E-mail:


Copperstown, New York needs you!

Full Time (40 hours per week) M-F 8-5

Inpatient treating Adults/ Hospital Setting

Epic EMR system

Start date: Mid December (12th)

Willing to look at 3 months to a year length of availability

$182 per hour (375,000 annually on a locums basis)

Housing, Travel, and Malpractice covered by [RECRUITER]
 
I would like to speak with you regarding the job outlined below. Let me know if you are interested in talking about the specifics.
The Practice:
  • Get to know your patients with 1 hour new patients visits and 20 minute med checks
  • Quality of life position: Ramp up quickly – Draw area of 300,000+
  • Call rotation of 1:8 taken one week at a time
  • Over 15 specialties represented hospital-wide = REFERRALS
Financials:
  • 90th percentile income potential - $275,000 Guarantee plus wRVU
  • $50,000 sign-on
  • Full relocation
  • $5000 CME
  • Strong vacation package
  • $100,000 in student loan assistance
  • Employee child center located across the street from the hospital with accommodating hours
Prominent Midwest River City: Population 50,000+
  • Historic Districts and an extensive parks system offer abundant recreational activities
  • Idyllic University town with excellent public and parochial schools and waterfront views
  • Live the good life on one of the areas beautiful golf courses
  • Cited by Forbes as One of the Top 10 Places to Raise a Family
  • Easy access to St. Louis offering museums, professional sporting events and an extended cultural community
 
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