Institute for Clinical Social Work

[BSWdavid]

Anyone here of this degree program at the Institute for Clinical Social Work? They have a Ph.D program, that is also offered online, in clinical social work. It is heavily psychodynamic focused, and most of the courses are therapy related, not research related. They don't require the GRE. I am thinking this might be a good degree for me. For admission they require an MSW plus two years of clinial experience. Also, they require the applicant to be licensed in the state. Any thoughts about the program?

http://www.icsw.edu/

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[apumic]

Why do you want a Ph.D. in Social Work? How would that benefit you? Additionally, while I am not going into social work, your description raised a number of red flags.
First, an online CLINICAL Ph.D. program?! Are you kidding me??? Sounds like a whole new degree of diploma mill!
Second, it doesn't require the GRE and it's a doctoral program? That sounds to me like the selectiveness of the program is extremely low, which means your respect as a professional would be quite low as a grad from that school (additionally, it also may indicate the education value is quite poor -- even for an online program).
Third, it's a Ph.D. that doesn't emphasize research -- I'm all for balanced Ph.D.s, but seeing as being an LCSW only requires an MSW, the only real value I can see in a Ph.D. in that field would be the research -- an additional 2 yrs of theory w/o practicum feedback (since it's an online course) seems like a total waste of time and money.
Fourth, you say it's "heavily psychodynamic." Most psychodynamic therapies take an enormous period of time to "help" a client, which means that insurance generally will not pay for the period of time "needed." Additionally, if you only know psychodynamic therapies, you will be unable to treat a large number of patients optimally.
Finally, getting a doctorate in social work in order to do clinical work is just plain ridiculous to begin with! Social work is a generalist field. MSWs are great for a lot of things and some basic therapy is certainly within their field; however, if you're wanting to be a clinician at the top of your game, why not simply follow one of the established tracks toward that profession (i.e., Psy.D., balanced Ph.D., MD w/ residency in Psychiatry). Doing 2 years generalist education in a loosely related subject area as an MSW student, then 2 years "clinical experience" and, finally, an "online Ph.D. in clinical social work" would hardly prepare you as a specialist in providing psychological therapies to the most difficult cases. I really don't think an online Ph.D. in anything would prepare you significantly better than would the initial clinically-oriented MSW you had earned in a traditional setting with regular feedback.
If anything, I could see the Ph.D. hurting your job prospects simply because while it is from a dubious school, employers might suspect you expect to be paid more b/c of your additional education but doubt you would be any more useful to them, therefore they might simply pass up on your application in the first place! Basically, you'd be a doctor with none of the rights and privileges that go along with that designation in other professions to offer! (I.e., prescriptive as an MD or MP; assessment as a Psy.D./Ph.D. in Clin Psych)

 

[2BeAProfessor]

I second this post and would also add something else,
If you want a strong clinical focus, try getting a DSW, they are offered in Californai at a couple of universities..
PhDs are usually meant strongly for teaching/research..

 

[MSWUT]

I, too, have been looking into ICSW's PhD program. ICSW is a 4-6 year Distance Ed program that is regionally accredited, not an online self-study program. It is identical to their residential program but is offered via video conferencing in an interactive real-time virtual classroom. While it has a clinical psychodynamic focus, it also has a strong research component and requires completion of a dissertation. In addition, as part of the program you receive long term supervision from different faculty members on current cases in your employment setting in order to integrate the theories into your practice.

Why would someone want a PhD in Clinical Social Work? I graduated 14 years ago with my MSW and I own a private psychotherapy clinic that is free from managed care. I've been looking for additional personal and professional growth opportunities, teaching opportunities, publishing and writing opportunities, advanced clinical training, improved supervision skills, mastery of psychodyamic theories, and other leadership opportunities in the field. ICSW is one of schools I am seriously considering.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Full disclosure: I think online training is not suitable at the graduate level....for any degree in healthcare, mental health, or the social sciences.

I think it boils down to what you want to do with a Ph.D. in Social Work. From what I have seen, people with those degrees tend to be in academia and/or are primarily research focused.....which would make the "online" aspect of the above program a problem. Academia is not very accepting of online training, particularly at the doctoral level. If you want to work in academia, I'd strongly suggest going the traditional route, as it is already a competitive market at the undergraduate and graduate levels of academia.

In your position I'd want to know how the mentoring and research aspects would be addressed, since those are two aspects should account for a great deal of your training. Classes at the doctoral level are typically secondary to the mentorship and research, since the application of the knowledge is really where the training differentiates from just taking "more" classes. There also seems to be a great deal of academic inbreeding there (people graduating from the program, and then teaching in the program).

I took a quick look around and saw the following:

A student is eligible for graduation when he or she has:

Earned a minimum of 35 course credit hours with a grade point average of at least 3.0 on a 4.0 scale

Uhm....that isn't even half of a MA/MS worth of credits. Even if the dissertation was 12 credits and the practicum another 12, that is barely enough for a MA/MS. I would definitely take pause about that.

The psychodynamic training would also give me pause.....not because of the methods, but because of the delivery. As someone who has received dynamic training at the doctoral level, I find it hard to believe that a person could feel comfortable really learning the in's and out's while sitting in front of their computer. For instance, how would a person do tape review with their mentor?

In regard to the classes, how can a person possibly receive the breadth and depth of training expected at the doctoral level without having an intensive experience? I know I put in 60+ hours a week during the first 3-4 years of my training, and I *still* felt like I cut corners (not presenting as much at conferences, not TA'ing enough, etc). I can't imagine an online program coming close to approximating a "traditional" doctoral experience.

While online training has improved over the years, I don't see it as a viable option at the graduate level, particularly in regard to higher level thinking. I'd be very wary of any programs that pushes this route.

If your goal is to teach, research, supervise, etc.....look into traditional Ph.D. programs. You will be better prepared, will be more competitive in the market, and you will have completed similar training to the doctorally trained people with which you aspire to work with.

 

[BSWdavid]

A student is eligible for graduation when he or she has:

Earned a minimum of 35 course credit hours with a grade point average of at least 3.0 on a 4.0 scale

I thought this was strange too, however, their courses are either 1 or .5 credit hours versus 3 credit hours.

 

[KayJay85]

Why would someone want a PhD in Clinical Social Work? I graduated 14 years ago with my MSW and I own a private psychotherapy clinic that is free from managed care. I've been looking for additional personal and professional growth opportunities, teaching opportunities, publishing and writing opportunities, advanced clinical training, improved supervision skills, mastery of psychodyamic theories, and other leadership opportunities in the field. ICSW is one of schools I am seriously considering.

I agree with the points of concerns already raised about ICSW. But why the emphasis on psychodynamic theories only? Also, given your goals, why not pursue a PhD in clinical psychology?

 

[BSWdavid]

I am actually not doing the online program. As far as research is concerned, there is a fair amount of research involved in the program. The training model is similar to that of psychoanalytic institutes.

I would have to disagree on the notion that psychodynamic therapy isn't evidence based.

 

[BSWdavid]

Also, it is important to note that the program developed out of the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute, hence, the strong psychodynamic influence. The goal of the program is to train clinical practitioners in the practice of psychodynamic psychotherapy, thus, it is designed for clinicians with an interest in psychodynamic therapy.

 

[BSWdavid]

It is not evidence-based for most disorders. Psychodynamic therapy (broadly defined) has only exhibited adequate research to qualify as an EST for depression and borderline personality disorder, although it has more modest research support than other types of treatment and is not a front-line treatment for anything based on the overall research literature. See: http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/eklonsky-/division12/index.html, which breaks down the supported treatments by disorder and by individual treatment (with citations for relevant research).

Interesting that EMDR is listed as an EBP although I have read much disdain on SDN about it.

 

[BSWdavid]

Interesting that EMDR is listed as an EBP although I have read much disdain on SDN about it.

Abbass A.A., Hancock J.T., Henderson J., Kisely, S. (2006). Short-term psychodynamic psychotherapies for
common mental disorders. The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, 4:CD004687.

Leichsenring, F. (2001). Comparative effects of short-term psychodynamic psychotherapy and cognitive-behavioral
therapy in depression: A meta-analytic approach. Clinical Psychology Review, 21, 401-419.

Abbass, A., Kisely, S. & Kroenke, K (2009). Short-Term Psychodynamic Psychotherapy for Somatic Disorders:
Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Clinical Trials. Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics, 78, 265-
274.

Hilsenroth, M., Ackerman, S., Blagys, M., Baity, M., & Mooney, M. (2003). Short-term psychodynamic
psychotherapy for depression: An evaluation of statistical, clinically significant, and technique specific
change. Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 191, 349–357.

Chambless, D.L., Sanderson W.C., Shoham V., Bennett Johnson S., Pope K.S., et al. (1996). An update on
empirically validated therapies. The Clinical Psychologist, 49, 5-18.

Cuijpers, P., van Straten, A., Andersson, G., van Oppen, P. (2008). Psychotherapy for depression in adults: a metaanalysis
of comparative outcome studies. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 76, 909-922.

Anderson, E.M., & Lambert, M.J. (1995). Short-term dynamically oriented psychotherapy: a review and metaanalysis.
Clinical Psychology Review, 15, 503-514.

 

[SNR]

I am interested in the MSW program at this Institute. Does anyone have experience with the school, is it legitimate? Thanks.

 

[PhDClinSW]

SNR, I am in the PhD program at ICSW and have heard a little about the new masters program. Interestingly, it is an MA in Counseling Psychology, I believe. (To be an MSW, there has to be a lot of courses that they weren't interested in including, I think). The curriculum is on their website. If you want to do counseling/therapy and with a psychodynamic foundation, it looks to be excellent. You would be eligible for LCPC licensure down the road with enough practice and passing the test.

 

[PhDstudent1982]

I am a first year doctoral student at ICSW and must say that the education and training have surpassed my expectations. Great school. I did have some concerns about the "academic incest" that is apparent at my institute, however, this is an issue with this type of program because there are very few clinical psychodynamic PhD programs in social work. However, our new dean comes to us from Loyola University, is a graduate of Columbia University, and I believe will bring in a fresh perspective.

In regards to the masters program, it is not an MSW program but a masters in clinical counseling and psychotherapy. Graduates are eligible to become LPC's in Illinois.

We truly have a unique, small program, that isn't for everyone. If you are interested in psychodynamic psychotherapy, this is the program for you. Many of our faculty members are also on faculty at the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute (Constance Goldberg, who is Arnold Goldberg's wife, R. Dennis Shelby, our director, etc.). If you are considering this program, feel free to message me. Don't pay any attention to the negative comments on this board. Most here assume you have to be a psychologist to be a good therapist, which isn't the case.

 

[ICSW PhD Student]

I just completed my 3rd year (out of 4) of coursework at ICSW's PhD program. I am in the distance learning program and it has been amazing. All the students travel to Chicago for classroom classes 2x/semester and the rest of the classes are through WebEx. Once you get used to WebEx, the classes run great. There are interesting clinical discussions about theory and psychotherapy that occur, even online through WebEx. The coursework is challenging, but rewarding. I had been a practicing psychotherapist for many years and I believe my practice has improved and my patients are better served through my application of what I have learned at ICSW. And there is a heavy concentration on research as well. You may choose a dissertation that would be quantitative, qualitative or mixed. There are several research courses and research independent studies as part of the cirriculum. A research dissertation is required for graduation with a complete IRB process. You must be a practicing psychotherapist to be accepted into the program. Using your existing patients, you are required to be involved in several intense case consultations with faculty (that are really clinical supervision sessions). These consultations are part of the tuition and are very useful. There is also a focus on clinical writing in these consultations. ICSW has a very strong cirriculum and I am glad I have put in the time, money and effort to be a part of this institution. The learning experience has been amazing. I went to a well ranked social work masters program, but what I am learing at ICSW is far more valuable than anything I learned at the masters level. I highly recommend this school.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm always skeptical when someone creates an account to stand up for an online program, and only posts about that.

That being said, what does this program incrementally do? What can you do with it that you can't do without it? Also, I would be wary of a program that only teaches psychodynamic as many larger institutions are recruiting those with experience in EBT's.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also…."MD/PhD Student"?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Also…."MD/PhD Student"?

At least in my experience, I've seen what I think might just be general confusion with this particular label, with folks reading it as, "MD or PhD student" rather than as indicating enrollment in an actual joint MD/PhD program. Sort of like how there's some ambiguity regarding "Psychology Student" vs. "Pre-Psychology"

 

[ICSW PhD Student]

I am already a practicing psychotherapist, as my masters level degree allows me a license to do this. I entered the program as one might enter a psychoanalytic or psychodymanic institute, so that I may learn more and improve my ability to practice psychotherapy. I have been well trained in CBT and have seen a lot of research on EBT. While I find value in those modalities, it is not where my interest lies. I really like what I am learning from the psychodynamic literature. The PhD will not "do anything for me" that my LCSW would not, except allow me to better understand and treat my patients. With that, I can have more confidence in my professional ability to serve patients as well as supervise other clinicians. The research piece is also a componet that I would not find at a psychodynamic institute, so I consider that a plus.

Judge the program if you must, but I have found it very valuable. But I do realize it is not the school for everyone. Good luck to you all with your pursuit of education!