Interesting dilemma: Do inmates have this right?

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Another problem with hormonal treatment is mixed with smoking it can kill the patient. I'm talking about a pet-peeve here, so bear with my rant, but I see plenty of patients on birth control that smoke and apparently their PCPs prescribing the hormones didn't even ask if the person smoked. Unexcusable.

Prisoners do have a right to complain. It must go through bureaucratic channels. Again, it is possible they could get their hormonal treatments. But a prisoner not being allowed them, just like one not being allowed to have access to paints, tools, their choice of movies, it's not considered a legal violation of their rights.

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Another problem with hormonal treatment is mixed with smoking it can kill the patient. I'm talking about a pet-peeve here, so bear with my rant, but I see plenty of patients on birth control that smoke and apparently their PCPs prescribing the hormones didn't even ask if the person smoked. Unexcusable.

Prisoners do have a right to complain. It must go through bureaucratic channels. Again, it is possible they could get their hormonal treatments. But a prisoner not being allowed them, just like one not being allowed to have access to paints, tools, their choice of movies, it's not considered a legal violation of their rights.

I would definitely prescribe OCs to smokers under 35. Now I may do progesterone only, but I think it would be overly cautious for many younger female smokers to not give them hormone based contraception because they smoke.

Being a Young female smoker with no other issues is not an absolute contraindication to prescribing hormone based contraception, and especially progesterone only contraception.

I think pcps know what they are doing here....we had a few months a long time ago as an intern doing medicine. They had years and years....I'll trust years and years over my(and other psychs) few months.
 
I would definitely prescribe OCs to smokers under 35. Now I may do progesterone only, but I think it would be overly cautious for many younger female smokers to not give them hormone based contraception because they smoke.
Risks of pregnancy far outweighs risk of OCPs. Just need to do good informed consent.

I occasionally prescribe monophasics to teenage girls with worsening mood symptoms correlated with their menstrual cycle. Even easier when they're already taking a tri-phasic and we just switch to the monophasic of the same hormones.
 
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But a prisoner not being allowed them, just like one not being allowed to have access to paints, tools, their choice of movies, it's not considered a legal violation of their rights.
I've beat this point to death probably, but the fact that you would equate paints and tools and choice of movies with hormone therapy really just throws me off.

Imagine that you (personally) had a condition where if you didn't take a certain pill, you would actually turn into a woman. What level of priority would you put on that pill? Would it be the same as not getting paints or getting to pick the Expendables 2? Would it be the same priority as supplementing low T?

Basically, I'm challenging all of you to think of continuing hormone therapy for a trans prisoner to effectively be the same as you taking a pill so that you could stay your current gender. Are there some differences in that analogy? Sure. But again, I challenge you to see those differences as unimportant, because they are mostly unimportant.

The court hasn't recognized any sort of "right to be your correct cis- or trans-gender/sex," but it's not crazy to think that they will do so in our lifetime, and that those issues trump the issues about appropriate medical care.
 
I mentioned this with each post. It's a legal thing, not ethical thing.

The law is where it becomes reality in a societal sense. One could debate the philosophical aspects of "rights," but when the law gets involved that's where we have to act in terms of applying treatments.

The Supreme Court set the bar very low as to what is a right concerning healthcare for inmates. I did not make the decision. They also allowed for Japanese Americans to be placed in internment camps and people with an intellectual disability to be sterilized. The latter case was Buck v. Bell where the usually highly-respected Oliver Wendell Holmes a Supreme Court Justice notoriously stated, "Three generations of imbeciles are enough, " and allowed for people to be sterilized against their will, and they accepted that eugenics was an acceptable science despite that what was then known has now been proven to be bogus. Only one Justice dissented with the decision. No later generation of the Supreme Court ever apologized or retracted for that prior court's ruling, and in fact it has even been used as a precedent in later major cases further bolstering the vulgarity of what was a terrible decision without attempting to rectify a dark chapter of it's own history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

One could argue the ethics of allowing an inmate to acquire hormonal therapy. I, for one, would actually be for someone getting the hormonal therapy. But is is a legal right? No.

But, agreeing with you that the court could make a more enlightened decision in the future, based on previous cases, they'll likely have to answer the following before they ever backed up hormonal treatment. 1) Is there a recognized disorder here?-Yes, that's black and white.
2) Is there a generally accepted treatment that has strong evidence to back it's use for treatment? No, but let's say it's the future, more data comes out and accepted treatments do become available...this leads us to 3) Does the prisoner have the right to acquire hormonal treatment? Under the previous case I mentioned-no.

One possible legal avenue of attack to allow prisoners to acquire such a treatment is under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), that does protect inmates, the law states that to withhold someone something available to others based on a "major life function" be a violation. If the court was convinced that feeling appropriate as to your gender was a "major life function," then there is room for legally allowing treatment as a right. Either that or they would have to overturn the previous legal decision. It's been done before, but only when a new case comes out that forces them to challenge a previously answered question.
 
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I've beat this point to death probably, but the fact that you would equate paints and tools and choice of movies with hormone therapy really just throws me off.

Imagine that you (personally) had a condition where if you didn't take a certain pill, you would actually turn into a woman. What level of priority would you put on that pill? Would it be the same as not getting paints or getting to pick the Expendables 2? Would it be the same priority as supplementing low T?

Basically, I'm challenging all of you to think of continuing hormone therapy for a trans prisoner to effectively be the same as you taking a pill so that you could stay your current gender. Are there some differences in that analogy? Sure. But again, I challenge you to see those differences as unimportant, because they are mostly unimportant.

The court hasn't recognized any sort of "right to be your correct cis- or trans-gender/sex," but it's not crazy to think that they will do so in our lifetime, and that those issues trump the issues about appropriate medical care.

why would I imagine that though.....why not imagine I was born with wings? There are a lot of things I don't like about the way my parents chromosomes sorted themselves out. But the reality is they did sort themselves out that way.

As for the court, I don't see them moving in that direction at all. What I see a push towards(or hope at least) is more freedom of choice, more liberty, less restrictions/regulations.......I think we see that in the gay marriage success over the last two decades. I've always supported gay marriage(not that it matters of course) because whether two guys want to sleep with each other and get married doesn't impact me in the least. My overriding theme of everything is for people to do whatever the heck they want to do. If someone born a man wants to get a surgery to cut off the penis and take hormones to look more like a women(or vice versa), more power to them as long as they have capacity and whatnot. I probably wouldn't have a lot in common with them and wouldn't likely hang out with them, but hey they probably feel the same way about me:)....that's beauty of america.

So imo that is the ultimate position of choice on this matter.....to allow people to do what they want to do. When you start telling people and institutions what services and products they HAVE TO provide AGAINST THEIR WILL, well then you're moving to a position less consistent with freedom, choice, etc.....

It goes back to the hobby lobby contraceptive ruling(and i know it's more complicated than this)- of course you should have a right to birth control. duh. But you shouldn't have a right to reach into my wallet and forcibly confiscate the funds for your birth control.
 
Because maybe, just maybe, you could empathize with these folks.

Well I do of course...that's why I support their right to do whatever it is with their bodies they want. As I said that's my principle for everything. God knows I do some things in my own personal life many people find objectionable, but I don't make them do It with me. Or force other people to support my choices....when I slide a 10 spot to a lovely lady dancing, I'm completely aware that many people find that objectionable/wrong/whatever....and I'm ok with that. I'm not bothering them, so the hell with them if they feel that way.

But taking it back to the context of the original post here- you mention empathy. Well, what about empathy for the person robbed, killed, assaulted, raped, etc....
 
But taking it back to the context of the original post here- you mention empathy. Well, what about empathy for the person robbed, killed, assaulted, raped, etc....
You're going to have to take it one step further and explain exactly what you mean here, because otherwise the way I'm reading this is crazy and illogical and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.
 
You're going to have to take it one step further and explain exactly what you mean here, because otherwise the way I'm reading this is crazy and illogical and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.

well many/most(depending on whether it is a prison or a jail and what prison) inmates have done pretty bad things to other people to land themselves in such a facility. If I had a loved one seriously harmed or killed by the violent actions of another, I'd imagine it would be pretty difficult to see the state bending over backwards(and essentially using my resources in doing so) to provide resources beyond the bare neccessities for the person who did that. My point was it's important to recognize their feelings as well(the victims and the victims families/loved ones)
 
Wow- In a daze here - I never thought I'd be agreeing with Vistaril on any given topic. I think most on here would agree that people should be able to live their lives as they see fit, and be allowed a variety of treatments meant to treat their underlying problems. Prison is a different story, and resources must be rationed carefully. Also, keep in mind that many of these prisoners are violent felons. The therapy or counseling ordinarily needed for their gender reassignment takes a backseat to the necessary counseling needed for their prison rehabilitation programs. If violence got them in to prison, that's what they need to work on first.
 
Wow- In a daze here - I never thought I'd be agreeing with Vistaril on any given topic. I think most on here would agree that people should be able to live their lives as they see fit, and be allowed a variety of treatments meant to treat their underlying problems. Prison is a different story, and resources must be rationed carefully. Also, keep in mind that many of these prisoners are violent felons. The therapy or counseling ordinarily needed for their gender reassignment takes a backseat to the necessary counseling needed for their prison rehabilitation programs. If violence got them in to prison, that's what they need to work on first.

Some of them may be Violent Femmes.
 
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But taking it back to the context of the original post here- you mention empathy. Well, what about empathy for the person robbed, killed, assaulted, raped, etc....
I'm not sure how depriving a trans person of hormone therapy validates the needs of victims. My argument continues to be that hormone therapy is not a luxury, that gender is something fundamentally more important than folks on here are acknowledging, and that it qualifies as a bare necessity. And my position remains that considering ongoing hormone replacement as an optional thing is ignorant at best, transphobic at worst.

I think this has wound up being a very civil argument, and I really appreciate that, but I think I'll duck out, as I'm pretty sure I've made my positions clear. It's okay to disagree, even if that disagreement is vehement.
 
If violence got them in to prison, that's what they need to work on first.

Careful. Some people in prison are innocent. By the law's very definition courts shoot for a 95% level of accuracy. Over 2 million are incarcerated in prisons though the number of people in the community under supervision is far higher. That leaves tens of thousands of people that could be innocent even if the courts met the standards they hope to achieve.

Further it's outside our professional ethics to deny or give lesser care based on a person being a prisoner. Yes I said prisoners do not have a legal right to hormonal therapy, but the doctors inside a prison are still supposed to provide good care if they can. If they cannot, they must do what is reasonably allowed. A prison can deny care, but if you're a doctor in the prison, you are not the prison, nor are you supposed to use the low standard of care as an excuse for poor care. You can request a prisoner receive a type of care, but the prison can deny your request.

Further, some people in there are in there for non-violent crimes, crimes without a definitive victim, or even violent crimes where a reasonable person would've done the same. A guy with no criminal record, finding his wife in the middle of coitus with his boss, then clocking the guy in the head, and then being charged and convicted isn't what most people would consider an evil person. In some states even if you shoot in self defense you can be arrested and found guilty of a crime with the wrong prosecutor on your back.

As for rehabilitation, there is data suggesting that inhumane treatment could lead to the opposite effect although it's murky. For example, Joe Arpaio, sheriff in Maricopa County, Arizona started placing inmates in living conditions that were considered some of the worst for inmates in the nation, and the recidivism rates didn't go down. (There is data that sometimes this approach works but there is contradicting data).
 
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