Intern at top IM program jumps off a roof

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NOsquid

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That's really sad :(

And doesn't NYU have somewhat of a history of several students committing suicide by jumping from the dorms and/or library over the years?
 
That's really sad :(

And doesn't NYU have somewhat of a history of several students committing suicide by jumping from the dorms and/or library over the years?
Yeah they do. Bobst (the library) recently had floor to ceiling metal grating put up on every floor which overlooks the central atrium because of the number of students that jumped every year.
 
Seriously. Columbia is tough. Poor, poor guy.

I know in med school there were a clutch of suicides-- some before, during, and after my time there. Our dorm is on a cliff overlooking the westside highway and people would jump off the roof. And the GW bridge is within easy walking distance.
 
This is awful-we had a student during my 1st year of med school commit suicide. Is it both Columbia P&S and the residency program(s) that tend to be tough? I had no idea that people take their own lives at P&S.
 
Awful.
And this is why I cringe every time I read a thread in pre-allo asking about whether someone should disclose their history of depression when applying to med school. For whatever reason, medicine attracts a lot of depressed people, like moths to a flame, but it's an intense and isolating path and ends up being a very bad place for some.
 
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With all due respect, Medicine does not necessarily attract depressed ppl. The environment is depressing with everyone starting from the janitor to some attendings treating you like **** and isolation from friends and family. Your coping techniques such as friendships and exercise or even your ability to pray are taken away. You are stuck in residency because there is no other alternative. What else would happen? I am so sad to hear these news items.
 
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This is awful-we had a student during my 1st year of med school commit suicide. Is it both Columbia P&S and the residency program(s) that tend to be tough? I had no idea that people take their own lives at P&S.

Both are tough, demanding places. I am very happy with my education but there were many others with quite different personality types who felt quite literally beaten down. I think medical student suicides happen anywhere-- nearly always related to the first academic failure the student in question has ever experienced, which leads their entire self-image and identity to come crashing down around them. In the case of the interns... many of us remember those first few months of internship, with the incredible workload (higher in NYC) and the millions of seemingly trivial things you have to make happen, and the overwhelming sense of "this isn't what I thought it would be." If that's coupled with a poor performance, or a few mistakes, and some public criticism (again, more freely dispensed in NYC)... you can see what can happen. And if the tunnel narrows down to the point that you lose all sense of a future-- a sense that things *will* get better and you will get to move on to the good stuff eventually... that's when it gets dangerous.
 
With all due respect, Medicine does not necessarily attract depressed ppl....

Do a search on the topic in pre-allo and you will see that based on the frequency of threads each cycle, yes it kind of seems to. I don't know if it's that much worse than in other fields but it's not exactly a rare event for someone to be posting on SDN that they have a history of depression and want application advice relating to it.
 
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Do a search on the topic in pre-allo and you will see that based on the frequency of threads each cycle, yes it kind of seems to. I don't know if it's that much worse than in other fields but it's not exactly a rare event for someone to be posting on SDN that they have a history of depression and want application advice relating to it.

I'm surprised this is coming from you, not exactly evidence based. Probably a lot of selection bias. People with depression might be more likely to post with advice questions, but it doesn't mean there are more of them or that they are drawn like moths to a flame.


But yes, this is sad. Be there for your friends and classmates and never look down on someone who asks for help.
 
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I'm surprised this is coming from you, not exactly evidence based. Probably a lot of selection bias. People with depression might be more likely to post with advice questions, but it doesn't mean there are more of them or that they are drawn like moths to a flame...

Maybe. I have weighed in on more threads like that than I can remember, and usually my suggestion that medicine is a tough road for someone in that situation gets shouted down by the "you can do it" cheerleaders. I've been on here a pretty long time now and this really isn't an uncommon post we see, without fail multiple times every cycle. Maybe that says something. Maybe it's just SDN and not medicine that attracts this crowd. I don't know. It's just an observation I've made multiple times on here.
 
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I don't think that medicine attracts more than its fair share of people struggling with depression but I think it does attract that group of depressed people who are actually aware of and trying to deal with it. This is kind of a lead time bias.

But med school and residency absolutely will push that group of people with sub - clinical and unrecognized symptoms over the edge at some point. I've seen it time and again. In the best of circumstances, it's recognized early (by the person or, more likely a friend or relative) and managed with minimal impact on their future in medicine. Worst case scenario is seen above.

It happens in law school, B school and grad school too. Anywhere that smart, potentially unstable people are pushed beyond their abilities. These don't cause the pathology, they unmask it. Sometimes with fatal consequences.
 
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The problem with medicine is that by the time you've hit third year and see what you've really gotten yourself into, you're likely to be about one hundred thousand or more in debt with a pre-med degree that's essentially useless. Then onto residency. Now two hundred thousand in debt, working on the order of 80 hours a week and making only enough to live on, you can watch your debt expand with essentially no job prospects outside of completing residency. It's easy to feel trapped and hopeless if you turn out not to like medicine.

So let's say you're in residency and matched into a program. You have no negotiating power whatsoever. It's very difficult to leave if you don't like the program, don't like the specialty, if they're abusive towards you, or for any other reason. Many programs take advantage of these facts. You've signed a one year contract, and if you violate that you may never get a new residency again. These conditions should be illegal under anti-trust rules (a rider was written into an unrelated bill to make the match exempt from anti-trust), and would not be tolerated in any other industry. I mean imagine it...You sign up one year at a time, and if you quit you will never work again in that industry, especially if you're labelled a "match violator", you evil anti-trust dodger you. Only in the military do we expect that sort of commitment otherwise. But, for some reason in medicine we tolerate low paying work for years under the threat of otherwise unrepayable debt. Thus, I call the medical training pathway indentured servitude. Sure, I'm in the thick of it myself, but I'm not going to say that the current medical training pathway is right or fair either.

Meanwhile, the overseeing organization (the ACGME) really doesn't care much if you're violating work hour rules, not getting much of an education, or whatever gripes you might have. If you report abuses towards you, you're very likely just to be kicked out, and you face the very real possibility of never working again in medicine with a useless degree and over $200k of debt. You might be able to switch specialties or to another program if you suffer through whatever conditions you're in for the months to years required. Most residents just put their heads down on the pathway to becoming attendings. I'm not sure if there are very many people at all who are actually content through it all.

So while nobody should ever commit suicide due to the pressures of the medical training pathway, I empathize with those who are depressed in medicine. What if you either can't bear the thought of several more years of abuse and misery or can't imagine life as an attending will be any better? It's very easy then to feel depressed and hopeless. What most do on SDN, as in real life, is to simply portray the few outliers as being mentally ill without examining the ridiculous conditions of our medical training. We bury our heads in the sand and think that we're so much stronger or that it could never happen at my medical school/residency program. So the depressed and hopeless simply isolate themselves from everyone else, making everything that much worse.

This is awful-we had a student during my 1st year of med school commit suicide. Is it both Columbia P&S and the residency program(s) that tend to be tough? I had no idea that people take their own lives at P&S.

We had a fourth year in my graduating class commit suicide as well. This was at the med school that pre-allo seems to think only produces butterflies and rainbows. The reality is so much different once you're in the thick of it. But by then, you're committed and really can't escape.
 
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Maybe. I have weighed in on more threads like that than I can remember, and usually my suggestion that medicine is a tough road for someone in that situation gets shouted down by the "you can do it" cheerleaders. I've been on here a pretty long time now and this really isn't an uncommon post we see, without fail multiple times every cycle. Maybe that says something. Maybe it's just SDN and not medicine that attracts this crowd. I don't know. It's just an observation I've made multiple times on here.

I agree with wholeheartedly; I think that people who are depressed may be attracted to SDN by the promise of relative anonymity. Anytime anyone complained out loud during med school, especially during MS1, people would jump down their throats. "You shouldn't complain! Do you know how many people would love to be in your spot?" "If you're such a whiner now, wait until you become a resident!" etc. So I feel like people turn to SDN, hoping to find a place where people might actually be able to empathize.
 
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Since when was NYU a "top" IM program?
 
Plus the two people in question were interns at Columbia and Cornell, respectively.
 
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I don't think that medicine attracts more than its fair share of people struggling with depression but I think it does attract that group of depressed people who are actually aware of and trying to deal with it. This is kind of a lead time bias.

But med school and residency absolutely will push that group of people with sub - clinical and unrecognized symptoms over the edge at some point. I've seen it time and again. In the best of circumstances, it's recognized early (by the person or, more likely a friend or relative) and managed with minimal impact on their future in medicine. Worst case scenario is seen above.

It happens in law school, B school and grad school too. Anywhere that smart, potentially unstable people are pushed beyond their abilities. These don't cause the pathology, they unmask it. Sometimes with fatal consequences.

It doesn't even have to be beyond their abilities. There are high functioning people with mild/moderate Axis I disorders that have figured out coping mechanisms that have allowed them to stay functional without having to interact with mental health professionals. It's rare to be able to attend professional school and keep all the coping mechanisms intact especially if you didn't know beforehand how much you needed them. Or there is progression of disease (M1/M2 years tend to correlate with the tail end of the age distribution of newly diagnosed bipolar/schizophrenia).
 
I came across this thread during my search of the NYU graduate, whose name sounded familiar until I finally realized I had met him on two of my medicine interviews last fall/winter. He was the kind of person who you can quickly learn to trust and he made everyone, including the program directors, laugh as we went around the room introducing ourselves as applicants. In the few minutes I had to talk to him, he was someone who I could easily see being friends with if he were one of my colleagues. It's absolutely sad to hear of this tragedy and I offer my deepest condolences to his family and friends. The moderators touched on all the contributing factors that can lead to this scary and lonely point in one's life. And to reiterate, we need to reach out to our family, friends, and especially our co-residents before it is too late. We all can walk into residency with issues and ongoing problems that can easily be fueled by the rigors and pressure we are all experiencing. I agree that we are brought up to think that we need to be strong and keep going, but something as simple as asking for help can save your life, so that you can continue to save others.
 
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It doesn't even have to be beyond their abilities. There are high functioning people with mild/moderate Axis I disorders that have figured out coping mechanisms that have allowed them to stay functional without having to interact with mental health professionals. It's rare to be able to attend professional school and keep all the coping mechanisms intact especially if you didn't know beforehand how much you needed them. Or there is progression of disease (M1/M2 years tend to correlate with the tail end of the age distribution of newly diagnosed bipolar/schizophrenia).
Why?
 
Awful.
And this is why I cringe every time I read a thread in pre-allo asking about whether someone should disclose their history of depression when applying to med school. For whatever reason, medicine attracts a lot of depressed people, like moths to a flame, but it's an intense and isolating path and ends up being a very bad place for some.
Cringe bc you feel they shouldn't apply and possibly exacerbate their condition?
 
No, it was not obvious.

If it was a joke, it was also in poor taste.

You're right, and it's out of character for me to make jokes while we're discussing things like suicide, but the intent was to mock the mentality that pervades SDN and academic medicine, a mentality that I was embracing until not too long ago. It's this obsession with excellence and success and recognition in their career that has completely displaced all other important pieces of a person's life - including empathy. I've done this to myself in a way - moved to a residency program far away from friends and family because of the program's name and reputation. Now that I'm in the thick of things, I realize that I've sacrificed too much in the name of career and am regretting it because I don't even think the training is any better than what I had back at home. But enough of that.

Of course I'm saddened by this suicide. But I would feel that way regardless of whether it was a resident or an attending or whether they're at a top IM program or whatever. Death is horrifying, suicide being one of the worse ways to go. And there isn't much point expressing condolences on this forum when there's no one here (that we know of) who knew the man and who would appreciate them. And the systemic problems in academic medicine have been discussed to no end, with no changes made whatsoever from the discussion. We all know the 80 hr week was pushed forward by people outside of medicine who were concerned that overwork was making physicians make mistakes that hurt patients. The concern was always the patients, not the physicians. Outsiders don't care how much we work or what our work conditions are like - many of them think we're greedy soon to be filthy rich types. And within medicine there are constant attacks on work hour limitations, violations of the limitations, turfing off simpler cases to midlevels and intensifying the acuity and intensity of what physicians have to deal with, inventing new responsibilities (like mountains of EMR documentation), etc.

Suicides by physicians will change none of this. The administrators will just say "you need to take care of yourselves, seek help if you need it, blablabla, etc." even while they schedule you for 12 consecutive days of 12-14 hr shifts in an ICU, where the weekend ICU attending ridicules you just because you're following through on the plans set out by the weekday attending, where the urology consultant literally laughs at you and accuses you of entering false information into the record because you called a duplicated collecting system a duplicated collecting duct, where the nurses refuse to let you examine the patients and say "I'm not gonna take this crap" to your face and march off to complain to the attending when you told them the patient doesn't need IV morphine for an LP, etc. And when you're on an outpatient elective, they'll just make things more fun by filling your weekends with wonderfully disorienting stints on random wards/ICUs where you know nothing about the patients or the issues.

And that's nothing to what many residents on SDN have described. Did you not see the thread a short while ago where the pregnant female surgery resident explained how given her status and responsibilities she thinks she should just get an abortion?

One thing I will say is that it is wrong to call this depression, which is the running theme here. This is not psychopathology. Suicide ≄ depression. These people are having normal psychological reactions to very stressful work conditions that have eroded their personal lives to a shadow of what once was. Most of us go into "survival mode" and just try to take things one day at a time, anticipating the next day off when we can shop for groceries and wash the bathtub. Some of us are not able to do that, we find the future in medicine so bleak, the trials thus far so isolating and daunting, that we end up taking our own lives.
 
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Imagine how less stressed out people would be if they didn't have to pay back 500K+ of loans.

Imagine if the MARKET set the costs of higher education such that it were kept in line with the CPI.

Imagine paying a more reasonable inflation-/CPI-adjusted value of ~70K for the whole shebang, instead of feeling the weight of 20 years of loans caving in on you, reminding you every day--and, of course, sucking all the supposed 'joy' of caring for patients right out from underneath you--that if you aren't perfect all the time, that if you fail in any way, the rest of your financial and personal life will be ruined.

ImaginIFF.

All of this could be yours if the price is right--or if the federal government got out of higher education.

The stress of professional education would be far more bearable in the absence of the absolutely disgusting, predatory and abusive lending system that was FORCED on the American population by the federal gubb'mint. I say this out of personal experience and from watching others suffer the stress of paying back the absolutely crushing weight of so much non-dischargable debt.

Suicide in higher education is nothing new, of course, (Cornell University, anyone?) but the stress that so often causes it is compounded exponentially IMO by the weight of unprecedented academic debt. What other country does this to its citizenry? Never in the history of the U.S. have so many individuals owed so much money relative to what they expect to earn.
 
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Cringe bc you feel they shouldn't apply and possibly exacerbate their condition?

Exactly. In medicine you are incredibly isolated and in a pressure cooker and suffering from lack of sleep and sometimes having malignant personalities berating you for many years, and on top of that you have the emotional stories of death and dying patients all around you. Those who have thick skins and can compartmentalize do fine, but it's not really a path you should start if you are "sort of okay". I'm not saying any of that had to do with this case, but we do see a LOT of threads of struggling people who want in on med school. And yes there is a correlation between depression and suicide.
 
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Imagine how less stressed out people would be if they didn't have to pay back 500K+ of loans.

Imagine if the MARKET set the costs of higher education such that it were kept in line with the CPI.

Imagine paying a more reasonable inflation-/CPI-adjusted value of ~70K for the whole shebang, instead of feeling the weight of 20 years of loans caving in on you, reminding you every day--and, of course, sucking all the supposed 'joy' of caring for patients right out from underneath you--that if you aren't perfect all the time, that if you fail in any way, the rest of your financial and personal life will be ruined.

ImaginIFF.

All of this could be yours if the price is right--or if the federal government got out of higher education.

The stress of professional education would be far more bearable in the absence of the absolutely disgusting, predatory and abusive lending system that was FORCED on the American population by the federal gubb'mint. I say this out of personal experience and from watching others suffer the stress of paying back the absolutely crushing weight of so much non-dischargable debt.

Suicide in higher education is nothing new, of course, (Cornell University, anyone?) but the stress that so often causes it is compounded exponentially IMO by the weight of unprecedented academic debt. What other country does this to its citizenry? Never in the history of the U.S. have so many individuals owed so much money relative to what they expect to earn.

I really don't think high tuition debt had much to do with this. That's not a pressure people feel day to day during intern year. To be honest most money issues really don't come into play in residency for most until you get to the point when you need to line up a job. Or if they do it involves an unexpected debt, like a family health expense, not a tuition you are going to be paying off for decades. I think you are trying to stretch this kind of event to fit an agenda.
 
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Exactly. In medicine you are incredibly isolated and in a pressure cooker and suffering from lack of sleep and sometimes having malignant personalities berating you for many years, and on top of that you have the emotional stories of death and dying patients all around you. Those who have thick skins and can compartmentalize do fine, but it's not really a path you should start if you are "sort of okay". I'm not saying any of that had to do with this case, but we do see a LOT of threads of struggling people who want in on med school. And yes there is a correlation between depression and suicide.
I think part of the rationalization is that you see "everyone else can do it, why not you?" or "I'll just choose a specialty that isn't like that". And you talk to doctors who will say it was no big deal (community doctors, of course). And you figure so far you've done great academically so why not? I also think it's hard to know if you are really just "sort of okay" or it's just anxious jitters.

According to the obituary, the Columbia intern was AOA, so even then his performance in medical school was quite exceptional even with likely depression.

What do you think premeds can do to "test" to see if they can handle the above that you mention?
 
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I really don't think high tuition debt had much to do with this. That's not a pressure people feel day to day during intern year. To be honest most money issues really don't come into play in residency for most until you get to the point when you need to line up a job. Or if they do it involves an unexpected debt, like a family health expense, not a tuition you are going to be paying off for decades. I think you are trying to stretch this kind of event to fit an agenda.

I actually think it may be the primary reason for some of these suicides, but not for the reasons he stated. For most of us, our medical debt is not the kind of problem that we might kill ourselves over, because we believe in medicine as a career and probably enjoy it to some extent.

But not everyone enjoys medicine. There are going to be people who end up not liking medicine, some who hate it. There's no way to leave medicine unless you're independently wealthy or med school was free. These people are forced to work 80-100 hours per week, for years, in a job they hate, with the alternative being a lifetime of debt. Living like that would drive even perfectly normal people to suicidal ideation. They see no way out, because there is no way out, except suicide.

I think there will always be suicides among residents as long as society traps them like this.
 
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I actually think it may be the primary reason for some of these suicides, but not for the reasons he stated. For most of us, our medical debt is not the kind of problem that we might kill ourselves over, because we believe in medicine as a career and probably enjoy it to some extent.

But not everyone enjoys medicine. There are going to be people who end up not liking medicine, some who hate it. There's no way to leave medicine unless you're independently wealthy or med school was free. These people are forced to work 80-100 hours per week, for years, in a job they hate, with the alternative being a lifetime of debt. Living like that would drive even perfectly normal people to suicidal ideation. They see no way out, because there is no way out, except suicide.

I think there will always be suicides among residents as long as society traps them like this.

There will be suicides among residents as long as residency exists. A more rigorous mental health assessment prior to med school or residency would probably drop the rate but at the cost of excluding people that would have made it through just fine.
 
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I think part of the rationalization is that you see "everyone else can do it, why not you?" or "I'll just choose a specialty that isn't like that". And you talk to doctors who will say it was no big deal (community doctors, of course). And you figure so far you've done great academically so why not? I also think it's hard to know if you are really just "sort of okay" or it's just anxious jitters.

According to the obituary, the Columbia intern was AOA, so even then his performance in medical school was quite exceptional even with likely depression.

What do you think premeds can do to "test" to see if they can handle the above that you mention?

As a pre-med it's tough because med schools screen for success which may or may not be a useful marker of someone's resiliency. Someone may be successful because they've been constantly learning from set-backs and keep going or someone may be successful because they've been on a path they are naturally suited to and have never had to face serious challenges about how they perceive themselves. That's not to say that the second person isn't resilient, just that their resiliency is an unknown. If you can't take criticism without having your world cave in then medical training isn't for you. After that, things get more gray. I guess one way you could test yourself would be to do something to which you're completely unsuited and see if you can stick with it.
 
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As a pre-med it's tough because med schools screen for success which may or may not be a useful marker of someone's resiliency. Someone may be successful because they've been constantly learning from set-backs and keep going or someone may be successful because they've been on a path they are naturally suited to and have never had to face serious challenges about how they perceive themselves. That's not to say that the second person isn't resilient, just that their resiliency is an unknown. If you can't take criticism without having your world cave in then medical training isn't for you. After that, thinks get more gray. I guess one way you could test yourself would be to do something to which you're completely unsuited and see if you can stick with it.
There are no objective metrics for resiliency, ability to take constructive criticism, ability to work in teams, etc. GPA and MCAT aren't the best markers for MS-3 performance and have never been claimed to be. The problem is we have no other real metrics, as of now, and the only things those metrics do help with is in predicting being able to get thru the first 2 years. That being said, as said about by @Law2Doc and @Neuronix have said, you also have to be able to deal with people who may be malignant themselves - an upper level resident, an attending, etc. There is a real dark underbelly to medicine, that many don't wish to talk about.
 
We had a fourth year in my graduating class commit suicide as well. This was at the med school that pre-allo seems to think only produces butterflies and rainbows. The reality is so much different once you're in the thick of it. But by then, you're committed and really can't escape.
That school in question probably produces butterflies and rainbows as far as opportunities. The overall student body culture isn't as wonderful. They still do H/P/F in the basic science years and clinical rotations to get H is cutthroat.
 
There are no objective metrics for resiliency, ability to take constructive criticism, ability to work in teams, etc. GPA and MCAT aren't the best markers for MS-3 performance and have never been claimed to be. The problem is we have no other real metrics, as of now, and the only things those metrics do help with is in predicting being able to get thru the first 2 years. That being said, as said about by @Law2Doc and @Neuronix have said, you also have to be able to deal with people who may be malignant themselves - an upper level resident, an attending, etc. There is a real dark underbelly to medicine, that many don't wish to talk about.

There is a resilience scale but it's also quite easy to game so I don't see it being useful to schools trying to weed out applicants. It may be of some use to the self-aware applicant though. In terms of the dark underbelly, I'm not sure that it's that people don't want to talk about it so much as the people that would benefit from hearing it don't want to listen. Anything that has as lucrative a salary while being viewed as good for society and is as difficult to get into as medicine must be worth it. Pre-meds hear us complain and think it's some version of Tyler Durden making them stand outside the house for 3 days without encouragement.
 
There is a resilience scale but it's also quite easy to game so I don't see it being useful to schools trying to weed out applicants. It may be of some use to the self-aware applicant though. In terms of the dark underbelly, I'm not sure that it's that people don't want to talk about it so much as the people that would benefit from hearing it don't want to listen. Anything that has as lucrative a salary while being viewed as good for society and is as difficult to get into as medicine must be worth it. Pre-meds hear us complain and think it's some version of Tyler Durden making them stand outside the house for 3 days without encouragement.
If you're talking about this survey: https://www.resiliencescale.com/en/rstest/rstest_14_en.html, then yes, it can be gamed.

It's not at all shocking. I think it's a lot of pie in sky dreams and it's just a millenial trait not to listen. Ask them why medicine, and not PA, NP, Dentistry, etc. they go into superfluous characteristics - I want to know everything (impossible), I don't want to be under someone (PAs/NPs don't have someone looking over their shoulder as they're doing the H&P), I want to be the leader (when actually healthcare is moving towards team-based care, not an individual physician and thus med schools are changing their clerkships accordingly) --- as a side note, I think this will make specialties in which you are relatively autonomous even more competitive.

They make the novice mistake of thinking that the hard part of medicine is the first 2 years of medical school, which is ridiculous. Yes, you aren't sitting at a desk, flipping pages, highlighting, taking notes, and committing things to memory, but those years are the relatively easy years with respect to it's toll on our mind, body, etc.
 
There will be suicides among residents as long as residency exists. A more rigorous mental health assessment prior to med school or residency would probably drop the rate but at the cost of excluding people that would have made it through just fine.

I question whether mental health screenings will accomplish anything. Yes, they might drop the rate of resident suicides, but you're not reducing the total number of suicides (in society). Those people who were screened out will go into a different field (law, finance) and will be nearly as likely to kill themselves there. Because these people have mental health issues, the issue is not necessarily medicine pushing them over the edge.

In contrast, the resident suicides that are caused by pursuing a career in medicine are not necessarily a mental health issue. Even someone with marginal mental health, coping skills, etc. can make it through residency as long as they see a light at the end of the tunnel and are able to derive some satisfaction from the job.

The residents that kill themselves because they pursued a career in medicine are be doing it because they don't like the job, don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, derive no satisfaction from the job, and because the job necessarily becomes your entire life for several years. Many of these are likely people who had perfectly normal mental health going in, but are now placed in a situation where any ordinary person would be driven to SI. This is not a mental health issue, it is a problem-with-the-way-medical-education-is-set-up issue (namely, it renders you indebted so that you can't leave once you're in).

I feel like a lot of posts in here are missing the point. To re-iterate, I see two types of resident suicides. The first is in those who have mental health issues and are at high risk for suicide in any life path, and the second is in those who are driven to suicide by being trapped in medicine. Suicide in the latter is not a mental health issue, nor is it primarily a resilience issue. Neuronix explains the second group in his post.
 
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It's rare to be able to attend professional school and keep all the coping mechanisms intact especially if you didn't know beforehand how much you needed them.

Around the world the most common coping mechanism seems to be family. But medicine typically robs you of any location choice you may have after applying to at least a dozen med schools. So you move away from your family members so you have nobody to help you. Then you can repeat this again for residency. It's quite hard to make new close interpersonal relationships with anyone. Who wants to go out with someone who always works and is broke?
 
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...Who wants to go out with someone who always works and is broke?


Agree with the isolation and always working aspects. As for "Always broke", I'd say plenty of people in this country earn far less than interns and they all have girlfriends, wives, baby mommas etc. So not buying that so much. It's a time and "work is your mistress" thing. As poor a you are there's always someone out there willing to hitch to your wagon if you know how to play the game.
 
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Agree with the isolation and always working aspects. As for "Always broke", I'd say plenty of people in this country earn far less than interns and they all have girlfriends, wives, baby mommas etc. So not buying that so much. It's a time and "work is your mistress" thing. As poor a you are there's always someone out there willing to hitch to your wagon if you know how to play the game.

Most of them don't have 6-figure debt they're trying to pay off on these salaries. And yes, I know plenty of residents choose to defer during residency (whether that's smart is a whole different discussion), but at the very least someone making $50k/year with 2-8x that much debt looming over them probably shouldn't be/isn't spending a lot.
 
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Most of them don't have 6-figure debt they're trying to pay off on these salaries. And yes, I know plenty of residents choose to defer during residency (whether that's smart is a whole different discussion), but at the very least someone making $50k/year with 2-8x that much debt looming over them probably shouldn't be/isn't spending a lot.

Even so, that's not prohibiting the typical resident from being in a "close interpersonal relationship". A single person making $47k a year and minimally servicing his tuition debt still has enough to take someone out to a burger and a movie.

But I think we are off on a tangent.
 
It's a time and "work is your mistress" thing. As poor a you are there's always someone out there willing to hitch to your wagon if you know how to play the game.

Assuming you had time to play that game in the first place. My point isn't that poor people can't mate. It's that when you're broke AND have no time to meet people, the combination is a pretty tough obstacle to overcome. Who exactly is going to agree to a burger and a movie with you in the first place? Maybe a nurse in the hospital, because who else do you actually have a chance to meet.
 
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Assuming you had time to play that game in the first place. My point isn't that poor people can't mate. It's that when you're broke AND have no time to meet people, the combination is a pretty tough obstacle to overcome. Who exactly is going to agree to a burger and a movie with you in the first place? Maybe a nurse in the hospital, because who else do you actually have a chance to meet.

Assuming that interns/residents are working 70-80 hr weeks, on average, they have plenty of time to meet someone. It's not like the days when 100+ hr weeks were common.
 
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Come now. People don't jump off of roofs 6 weeks into internship because they have existential angst over a lack of dating opportunities. And given that student loan repayment doesn't kick in until 6 months after graduation, I highly doubt it was crushing financial pressure, either.

People jump off of roofs 6 weeks into internship because they think their lives have become a black horror and are unable to imagine a future where things could be better. I suppose it is up to the psychiatrists to decide if they meet criteria for major depression or if it can only be an adjustment disorder due to the extraordinary set of life circumstances intership/residency entails.
 
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Come now. People don't jump off of roofs 6 weeks into internship because they have existential angst over a lack of dating opportunities. And given that student loan repayment doesn't kick in until 6 months after graduation, I highly doubt it was crushing financial pressure, either.

People jump off of roofs 6 weeks into internship because they think their lives have become a black horror and are unable to imagine a future where things could be better. I suppose it is up to the psychiatrists to decide if they meet criteria for major depression or if it can only be an adjustment disorder due to the extraordinary set of life circumstances intership/residency entails.

I agreed. I don't think it's the dating or the debt repayment. I think it's basically a combo of dislocation from family/friends + a sense of desperation when one ponders his career prospects. As I've said before, residency is very socially dislocating. In 3 months I've been able to make it to church just 4 times - so I've gotten to know really no one. I come home to an empty apartment and fill my free time with the sound of the human voice by watching TV or calling family (when I should be reading uptodate or papers). When my parents have visited, we couldn't really enjoy our time together because I would get up at 4 AM (and wake them up and disturb them) and come home at 7 PM so there were just 2-3 hrs over dinner we had together. Now, regarding my work, as hard as it is, I still have hope that once I get experienced and proficient I'll enjoy it more and feel more comfortable.

Now imagine you're someone who have come to realize in intern year you absolutely despise medicine, you hate patients, they bore you, you hate the mindless paperwork and "guidelines" and protocols, the sense of pervading incompetence, etc. Even with the greatest social supports, its hard to cope. Imagine if you're also feeling isolated and alone? No wonder these residents killed themselves. It's very inaccurate to call this major depression.
 
. I suppose it is up to the psychiatrists to decide if they meet criteria for major depression or if it can only be an adjustment disorder due to the extraordinary set of life circumstances intership/residency entails.

you are right that these would be common etiologies in an intern- looking at the broader population suicide is common in a wide variety of psych disorders. Substance use is often a contributing factor in both physicians and the general population.
 
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