International vet school questions

[meeper]

Hi everyone,
First of all I apologize if threads like this have been posted before! Please feel free to point me in that direction if they have been. I've lurked here for a while but haven't actively joined the community yet so I could have missed them!
Anyway, I have a few questions about applying to vet schools abroad (specifically Australia/Murdoch). I'm really interested in this option as I won't have a chance to study abroad in undergrad and I am really interested in being able to practice either in Australia or in the US after graduation.
I'm sure some of you attend schools abroad (and Murdoch specifically) so I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me about your experience and vet school life. My primary interest is in working with wildlife but I am well aware that the opportunities to work in this field are few and far between in the US - is it any different abroad? For example, is wildlife medicine a more open field in Australia? Also, how does the job market post-graduation compare to the market in the US (if anyone is abroad at a non-Australian school please feel free to answer this about your country as well)? Going abroad would definitely be more expensive than staying in the US, and I am wondering if the job market in other regions could justify the extra expense.
I also know that most Australian students go straight from high school to vet school. Does this mean that I would be unable to get credit for the 3 years of undergrad I will have already completed by the time I apply? I already have done all the usual pre-reqs as well as cell bio, micro, and some other upper level bio credits.
For (a very brief) reference, I have about the average college grades and vet experience hours of an admitted applicant in the US, in addition to > 1000 hours of wildlife animal experience. Not sure how much any of that factors into admissions abroad since most students are coming out of high school, but any insight would be helpful!
Thanks so much for any answers you guys might have and I look forward to stressing with you all in the next year

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[that redhead]

There aren't a lot of Australian vet students around here (sunshinevet is the only one that comes to mind - you could PM her), but there have been a couple of posts on the subject, just use the search function. You might also email admissions with some of your questions re: credit for previous coursework. Good luck!

 

[devyn]

Your best bet is to search in this forum for threads with "australian" or "murdoch" in them for more information. And as TRH said you can also try PMing sunshinevet!

 

[sunshinevet]

Hey, I thought I would answer here in case there are any people looking for similar answers.

I am a currently deferred final year student at Murdoch. I am a local student so I can't help with too many international specifics, but obviously I have close friends who are. I'm pretty sure I'm the only Australian student on this board now.

Firstly, working with wildlife. It is a bit different here as to the US as all vet clinics in Australia are duty bound to provide first aid/humane euthanasia to injured/sick wildlife. We don't have the issues with rabies that the US does so all vet clinics handle wildlife to some extent - some euthanase everything that comes through their door, some go above and beyond to treat and rehabilitate - just depends on the vets and the clinics policy - because its all pro bono - we don't recieve money from the government to do it, the clinic has to eat the cost. So if you work as a vet in Australia, you will deal with SOME wildlife no matter what - but how far you deal with it depends where you live and your bosses view on it. Actual positions working exclusively with wildlife are extremely few and far between and very sought after. Due to the obligation for all vets in Australia to deal with wildlife, we recieve a pretty alright education in wildlife medicine.

I would say approximately a third of my class wants to specifically do wildlife and exotic animal medicine. Crazy.

Job market in Australia is pretty poor for new grads - not as bad as the US I believe though. I know some grads last year who still don't have jobs. The other problem is that a lot of the areas that say they are short of vets are the absolute boonies with no other vets for miles, doing millions of hours for terrible pay and very little backup. Makes it hard.

The pay situation is pretty poor here too - many of my friends took jobs around the 45K mark, and the average salary is only around 65K. This brings me to my next point.

Doing vet school in Australia as an international student is expensive. Really, really, really really freaking expensive. Tuition went up to 42k/year here - that is tuition ALONE, not including the approx 15-20k/year you're going to need for living expenses - Perth is VERY expensive. So think very, very hard about exactly how much an abroad experience is worth to you - because its going to cost you the better part of 300k. Plus interest.

You won't get credit for your undergrad courses because you're taking vet school courses, if that makes sense? Some internationals get credits for a few things - ie if you have done a degree in biochem, you might get biochem off, or a degree in microbiology, you might get that off, but its pretty few and far between and they're pretty stringent on meeting the exact course objectives. The undergrad local students do one year of basic sciences/statistics etc and then go straight into the vet course with the international students - the equilivant of the DVM. There aren't many "undergrad" classes in it - we just don't have a very defined undergrad/post grad uni system like you guys do. Vet school at Murdoch will take you 5 years no matter what credits you get.

The class at murdoch is split into 3 "groups" - local students who came straight from highschool, local students who came after completing all/some of a university degree, international students. Each group has their own admissions requirements and accounts for approximately 30% of the class. For the international student requirements, I recommend contacting the uni I came straight from highschool

I hope that answered most of your questions, feel free to ask more, Murdoch is a great school and I love perth!!!

 

[meeper]

Thank you so much for your insight sunshinevet! That definitely helped!
I think the wildlife policy there is actually really interesting. Is it more common for clinics to euthanize everything? Or are there are fair amount of places willing to do the rehabilitation work?
How do your international friends justify the debt? Obviously since about a third of a class is from other countries, there must be a large percentage of the class graduating with those insane loans - are these people generally supporting themselves or do they have help from parents, etc? I'm just looking for some hope that it's doable! I know here that most of our universities don't give any scholarships or financial aid to international students - is it the same in Australia as well?
Also, and I'm not sure if you will be able to answer this, how do your international friends like the school/area? I grew up in an area of the midwestern US that had pretty much cows, cornfields, and nothing else, so it would definitely be a culture shock for me (which I think that I want). Would you say from your observations that most of your international colleagues are happy with their decision to go to Murdoch, even with the debt?

 

[BlackDog17]

Doing vet school in Australia as an international student is expensive. Really, really, really really freaking expensive. Tuition went up to 42k/year here - that is tuition ALONE, not including the approx 15-20k/year you're going to need for living expenses - Perth is VERY expensive. So think very, very hard about exactly how much an abroad experience is worth to you - because its going to cost you the better part of 300k. Plus interest.

I want to quote this for emphasis, because it's absolutely 100% correct for pretty much all international students, and it's something that many applicants fail to consider.

I'm an American attending a Canadian vet school, and the "international student fee" makes up about half of my tuition. It's WAY more expensive to be an international student, whether you're looking at Murdoch, AVC, Ross, Edinburgh, or any other school outside the U.S. And as sunshinevet already pointed out, it's not just tuition you have to worry about. Cost of living will be higher in many places, and your travel expenses to and from school during breaks will also amount to a huge chunk of money that you probably wouldn't have otherwise. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the Australian schools all have five year programs as well, so that's another whole year of extremely expensive tuition to be paying.

I highly recommend taking a look at some of the loan repayment calculators that are out there. You can find them easily with a quick Google search. Come up with a solid estimate of what your expenses as an international student will be, how much of that will need to come from loans, and how much of a starting salary you can expect after graduation, and then just play with the numbers. Remember that things like starting a family, buying a house, opening your own practice, etc are also very costly and are going to be hugely affected by those student loans.

Keep in mind too that it is totally possible to do an external rotation, internship, or residency in Australia. If you're dead set on studying abroad for the whole 4-5 years, that's fine, but if you think your wanderlust can be cured by a single semester or year in Australia, then you're probably better off saving yourself the extra hundred thousand plus and going to vet school in the U.S. instead.

Not trying to discourage anyone here. Just wanted to encourage anyone considering going international to really think about the financial aspect of that choice. I've noticed quite a few of my international classmates have an "Oh well, I'll figure it out when I graduate" attitude toward student loans, and that's how people get themselves into serious trouble!

 

[DVMDream]

I want to quote this for emphasis, because it's absolutely 100% correct for pretty much all international students, and it's something that many applicants fail to consider.

I'm an American attending a Canadian vet school, and the "international student fee" makes up about half of my tuition. It's WAY more expensive to be an international student, whether you're looking at Murdoch, AVC, Ross, Edinburgh, or any other school outside the U.S. And as sunshinevet already pointed out, it's not just tuition you have to worry about. Cost of living will be higher in many places, and your travel expenses to and from school during breaks will also amount to a huge chunk of money that you probably wouldn't have otherwise. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the Australian schools all have five year programs as well, so that's another whole year of extremely expensive tuition to be paying.

I did some calculating out to see if this really was the case back when I was applying. I was an OOS student everywhere in the US and when it came down to the nitty gritty... Edinburgh was rather equal in costs to the other US schools as an OOS student. Compared with some schools, Edinburgh was even cheaper. It was a bit more expensive than a few and about the same price as others... overall when I say more expensive... maybe $500-1000/year... a small drop in the bucket when you have a 350K loan.

I don't know about the other international schools, but if you are an IS student somewhere in the US, then yes going to an international school will be more expensive (most likely), but as an OOS applicant across the board... it didn't make any difference whatsoever.

 

[BlackDog17]

I did some calculating out to see if this really was the case back when I was applying. I was an OOS student everywhere in the US and when it came down to the nitty gritty... Edinburgh was rather equal in costs to the other US schools as an OOS student. Compared with some schools, Edinburgh was even cheaper. It was a bit more expensive than a few and about the same price as others... overall when I say more expensive... maybe $500-1000/year... a small drop in the bucket when you have a 350K loan.

I don't know about the other international schools, but if you are an IS student somewhere in the US, then yes going to an international school will be more expensive (most likely), but as an OOS applicant across the board... it didn't make any difference whatsoever.

That's interesting, your tuition must be a lot cheaper than ours then. My in-state was Tufts, which has a very high in-state tuition rate compared to many schools, and coming to Canada was still significantly more expensive. I remember Ross and St. George's working out to be higher as well. I never really looked into the UK programs though, but I've heard from others that they were rather costly - guess those people must have come from states with cheaper programs.

 

[sunshinevet]

Thank you so much for your insight sunshinevet! That definitely helped!
I think the wildlife policy there is actually really interesting. Is it more common for clinics to euthanize everything? Or are there are fair amount of places willing to do the rehabilitation work?
How do your international friends justify the debt? Obviously since about a third of a class is from other countries, there must be a large percentage of the class graduating with those insane loans - are these people generally supporting themselves or do they have help from parents, etc? I'm just looking for some hope that it's doable! I know here that most of our universities don't give any scholarships or financial aid to international students - is it the same in Australia as well?
Also, and I'm not sure if you will be able to answer this, how do your international friends like the school/area? I grew up in an area of the midwestern US that had pretty much cows, cornfields, and nothing else, so it would definitely be a culture shock for me (which I think that I want). Would you say from your observations that most of your international colleagues are happy with their decision to go to Murdoch, even with the debt?

Hmmm I would say in my experience its approximately 50/50. That also said, I would say that 99% of wildlife brought into vet clinics is FUBAH'd and euth'd anyway - you've got to remember there is a difference between what you can save and what you can save to release and the latter is what we're aiming for. Also, the vast majority of wildlife in Australia is either birds or small mammals - if they're showing they're sick they are usually screwed. And most bosses won't be down with you performing expensive interventions - surgery etc as they have to eat the cost.
I actually think our wildlife policy is one of the most efficient ways of going about it - I had no idea that regular vet clinics in the US didn't handle wildlife until I was on here.

Most of the international students here either have parents helping them OR are in the "more mature" category and got rejected multiple times from their own country, decided they would do anything to be a vet and came here. Some have partners who have moved here on a working visa and helped support them - your partner has to be part of an approved skills shortage to be eligible though. I would say for the internationals paying their own way, debt is a HUGE stressor for them - they are more stressed about exams as repeating a year is such a bigger deal, they feel guilty about doing it when they have kids, guilty about doing anything that costs more money.
And let me reiterate this - perth is a FREAKING EXPENSIVE CITY. A beer costs you $10, you are lucky to get change when you go out to dinner for $100. The rental prices are some of the most expensive in the country due to the mining boom.

We don't have a scholarship/financial aid system like the US (as our tertiary education is government subsidised) so you are on your own for the lot.

TBH the last question is impossible for me to answer. Some hate it here, can't wait to get back to the states. Some love it here and are staying. Most go back. Australia is a very different country but not different in the ways most people imagine.

 

[pulseczar]

Australian vet student here. Getting into wildlife medicine is COMPLETELY about who you know. Job openings are almost non-existent, and you basically need to volunteer like crazy, NETWORK extensively, target all your clinical electives towards wildlife and exotics, and even after that, you may still only end up doing companion animals, albeit exotic ones.

If you want to come to Australia, I'd suggest the Uni of Queensland. It just got AVMA accreditation last year. Being a semi-rural campus, rent is cheap and cost of living is relatively cheaper than going to the other AVMA accredited vet schools in Australia.

 

[meeper]

Sunshinevet - I promise I have zero romanticized notions about working with wildlife! I completely understand there's only so much one can do when it comes to wild animals and I 100% support humane euthanasia if the animal couldn't be rereleased to the wild. That being said, I really like the idea that vet clinics are required to do something, even if some euthanize only. I really wish we had a similar policy like that here, as I've worked in multiple wildlife rehab facilities and there are never enough people willing to help (especially vets because most clinics can't afford them and few have the time to volunteer) and very few who have the slightest idea what they're doing/rehab legally.
I was not too terribly concerned with the cost of living as I had planned to travel with a significant other (most likely will be spouse at the time of the move) whose career field is very big in Perth, but your post about working visas made me do some additional research and now I'm pretty worried he wouldn't be able to get into the country. I genuinely think I would love coming to Murdoch but upwards of 60k in loans for 5 years including the cost of living on my own just doesn't seem like a terribly responsible choice in this job market. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of going back to my home state (Illinois) but it would probably be half the cost or cheaper...

 

[sunshinevet]

Sunshinevet - I promise I have zero romanticized notions about working with wildlife! I completely understand there's only so much one can do when it comes to wild animals and I 100% support humane euthanasia if the animal couldn't be rereleased to the wild. That being said, I really like the idea that vet clinics are required to do something, even if some euthanize only. I really wish we had a similar policy like that here, as I've worked in multiple wildlife rehab facilities and there are never enough people willing to help (especially vets because most clinics can't afford them and few have the time to volunteer) and very few who have the slightest idea what they're doing/rehab legally.
I was not too terribly concerned with the cost of living as I had planned to travel with a significant other (most likely will be spouse at the time of the move) whose career field is very big in Perth, but your post about working visas made me do some additional research and now I'm pretty worried he wouldn't be able to get into the country. I genuinely think I would love coming to Murdoch but upwards of 60k in loans for 5 years including the cost of living on my own just doesn't seem like a terribly responsible choice in this job market. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of going back to my home state (Illinois) but it would probably be half the cost or cheaper...

Haha does your SO have anything to do with mining?!?! Apparently laws are meant to be changing that allows mining companies to take suitably qualified candidates from overseas... don't know if that comes into affect yet. So if he is maybe look up laws specifically pertaining to mining work visas.

If your SO does come as a "partner" he can work up to 25hrs a week, which could help significantly with the living expenses.

It must be such a tough decision. Perth is amazing. I love it. The beaches are unreal. The professors are great and the students on campus are close knit. I feel like I've spent this entire thread trying to dissuade you from coming lol. Totally not my intention, I do love Murdoch vet school.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I think the wildlife policy there is actually really interesting. Is it more common for clinics to euthanize everything? Or are there are fair amount of places willing to do the rehabilitation work?

If you're really interested in wildlife medicine, don't really look towards "regular" vet clinics to really practice in that direction..........wildlife medicine is really about work in conservation, rehabilitation, ecology, pathology, and epidemiology. It's really not about having someone bring in an injured bird or reptile to your regular (consumer) clinic for you to fix and release.

 

[meeper]

If you're really interested in wildlife medicine, don't really look towards "regular" vet clinics to really practice in that direction..........wildlife medicine is really about work in conservation, rehabilitation, ecology, pathology, and epidemiology. It's really not about having someone bring in an injured bird or reptile to your regular (consumer) clinic for you to fix and release.

I definitely know it's that way in North America as I've worked/volunteered for a few different rehab clinics and "regular" vet clinics over the years, I was just wondering about Australia specifically since I hadn't heard about their wildlife policy before sunshinevet mentioned it. I've considered doing rehabilitation as a profession since I am really passionate about it, but the job stability/pay is even scarier than vet med so I'm hoping to just volunteer my services on the side when I can if I do stay in the US.
And sunshinevet, no worries! I completely understand you love your school and Perth! I am positive I would too if there was a way to overcome the money situation. I will definitely keep looking into the visa situation though and I'm extremely thankful for all your help so far!

 

[GeekOut4Animals]

Hey there! I just wanted to say that I am in my very first year at murdoch's vet school and I am from Wisconsin. I absolutely love it here! LOVE IT! I am looking forward to my next 4 years here and possibly staying after graduation. I definitely recommend navigating the Murdoch website for some time because you do get a lot of questions answered that way. Also I have a blog you can read which has my specific experience: http://cheeseheadvetstudentinoz.blogspot.com/
You can always PM as well but I don't check this sight as much as I used to

My significant other has come to perth with me, but under my student visa as a defacto partner. The downside to that is that he is limited to 40hours of work in a two week time period because he is on my student visa work restrictions, but nothing beats having him here.

I know everyone is different but to me the money that I am paying to be here isn't as stressful now that I am here in this beautiful country and learning vet medicine.
I DID NOT APPLY TO ANY US SCHOOLS! I attend US uni for 4 years with a biology/prevet/vet tech degree emphasis and I was one semester away from graduating before making the decision to come to Australia. I applied for the march deadline, found out by the end of april 2012 that I was accepted, I dropped out of US uni, moved home to my parents with my SO of 6years, and saved some money. My parents helped me SIGNIFICANTLY with the start up costs of getting here because it is a LOT out of pocket right away, but now both my boyfriend and I have jobs here in Australia.
I applied to Murdoch just to practice my CV and personal statement out, if I did not get accepted which I was expecting then I was going to continue my studies and apply for US schools by Oct. 2012. However I am here and I am not looking back!
Also about the tuition money... my instate would have been INSANELY cheap to go to, and as much as I love cows and Wisconsin I was over it and needed to fill my travel bug.. my 6 hour from home college experience just wasn't far away enough anymore! hahaha HOWEVER, if I wanted to attend on OOS I would have been paying EXACTLY what I am paying now to be in Australia.. SO YES it does appear expensive to Australian's because they are paying undergraduate fees like the ones I paid for the last 4 years before coming here. Australian's don't realise that Vet School/Dental School/Medical School are all professional schools in the US and they are ALLL ridiculously expensive! I still love all my aussie friends dearly!

If this is a dream of yours follow it, but it is a big decision about financials and only YOU can truly weigh the cost:benefit analysis!

Always remember the veterinary medicine degree will open a LOT of doors to you in many fields of work that you probably never thought of before and even if you have one idea of what kind of vet you want to be, you better have your eyes and mind open to opportunities because you have no idea where that opportunity will take you or the contacts you will meet that will help bring you back to your ultimate goal!

I hope this all made sense and I definitely do not mind chatting more privately about certain things!

 

[ckurtzzz]

Does getting your vet degree at an international school (albeit AAVMC accredited) affect job prospects in the US? If you are American and want to practice in the US, should you study here?

 

[shortnsweet]

Does getting your vet degree at an international school (albeit AAVMC accredited) affect job prospects in the US? If you are American and want to practice in the US, should you study here?

AVMA accredited is AVMA accredited.
I didn't have a problem...and most of my friends have gotten jobs since moving back.

 

[NeonMountaineer]

I'm thinking about applying to international schools too. Does anyone know how the costs of attending an Australian school compare to the costs of Ross or SGU?