Internship imbalances strike again!

[psyman]

No, the VA does not hire Psychologists with unaccredited internships.

John Q bricklayer means less to politicians than john Q veteran.

But yes I agree. You are now arguing many of our points. Presenting unknown training quality to the public is bad...AND it would look bad of written into a headline such as that.

My internship was approved by my APA program. I'm sure the public will have no issue. I met state criteria to get licensed.

You guys honestly don't find it at all ironic that the VA will hire a masters level clinician, but not a psychologist TO DO CLINICAL WORK without an APA internship?

Also, so considering the value you put on an APA internship, do you think psychologists without APA internships should be licensed? I can't understand why you would. Why lower the bar right?

(I'm promising myself to exit this thread for good soon)

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[WisNeuro]

You guys honestly don't find it at all ironic that the VA will hire a masters level clinician, but not a psychologist TO DO CLINICAL WORK without an APA internship?

Also, so considering the value you put on an APA internship, do you think psychologists without APA internships should be licensed? I can't understand why you would. Why lower the bar right?

All clinical work is not equal, so no, I don't find in ironic at all. That is an extremely naive supposition to equate all clinical work as the same in complexity. And no, I don't think psychologists without APA internships should be licensed.

 

[erg923]

Did your program visit the site, interview faculty, past interns, review curriculum and training goals, review supervision documentation and records? No? What did they do to "approve" it?

No, as stated prior, many of us advocate that states require completion of an APA internship for licensure.

 

[erg923]

I am also confused by your focus on this issue. MFT to do some marital counseling for those that are champ qualified? Sure. MFT for general mental health clinic? No. MFT for primary care mental health? No. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

APA-acred. is far from perfect, but it at least pushed for standards and formal peer review. I'm rooting for states to go APA-acred. only…and soon. Is it fair to current students…absolutely not. However, it isn't fair to the field to have a glut of providers who do not come from the same training standards.

When I attend conferences I cringe at some of the conversations I hear in passing. My favorite involve when two or more people get together and discuss the awesomeness of [insert moonbeam and rainbow therapy]. How the heck did they go through all of that training and still believe in all of that junk science?! Oh wait…they didn't….and that is the problem. Those providers are not only out there, but they use the title of psychologist and the general public gets subjected to that junk science. Every. Single. Day. You/We can hide in our private practices and towers of academia…but those people are ruining our field with their fairy dust and snake oil sales. Science left their training long ago and I doubt it comes back without being forced….like is required by APA-acred. standards. Again, they aren't perfect, but they are at least they provide a minimum standard.

As for those students who are coming from programs that are less than forthcoming about the law changes, the challenges of securing an APA-acred. internship….I hope they sue their programs. It is still a "buyer beware" scenario….but programs still hold some accountability to those students and also the field; too bad they don't care.

 

[psyman]

Did your program visit the site, interview faculty, past interns, review curriculum and training goals, review supervision documentation and records? No? What did they do to "approve" it?

No, as stated prior, many of us advocate that states require completion of an APA internship for licensure.

Since the APA chose to allow non APA internships, that ship has sailed. It's simply not fair to loosen the screw on the standard, let people through, then tighten it again. Even if I were "grandfathered in" I still don't have an APA internship, even though I may be licensed. And yes, I think internships should be reviewed and such.

All clinical work is not equal, so no, I don't find in ironic at all. That is an extremely naive supposition to equate all clinical work as the same in complexity. And no, I don't think psychologists without APA internships should be licensed.

Show me where I said that please.


So, me personally, if I am licensed, should I be able to get a job, since I didn't do an APA internship? What should become of me?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

So, me personally, if I am licensed, should I be able to get a job, since I didn't do an APA internship? What should become of me?

It is still a free market, so if you meet the licensure requirements and attain a license…yes.

*edit to add*

In regard to hiring…I believe board eligibility (ABPP, ABN) to be the minimum level of competency for speciality practice. Again…peer reviewed and with enough rigor to ensure a level of competency more than just passing a licensure exam.

I'm sure this sounds very ivory tower-y…but I think the farther I get from training, the more I realize how different the actual field of psychology is from what I thought in training. There are MANY hacks out there and more on the way, so we need to protect the field if we want it to survive.

 

[erg923]

It's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair...

Fair to whom? You? Patients? The larger profession? If you are referring to "you," I will tell you what I tell my son-The world ain't fair. Get used to it.

I think those in training now and those finishing, like yourself, should be grandfathered in. But this fairness you speak of should really be reconceptualized to be about fairness to patients and the larger health of this field. I don't want my profession to become an irrelevant/marginalized allied service on the fringes of the healthcare system in the sake of being "fair" to a bunch people who didn't want to fall in line with a training practice (accreditation) that is standard and unquestioned in every other health service profession.

 

[WisNeuro]

You implied it here

"You guys honestly don't find it at all ironic that the VA will hire a masters level clinician, but not a psychologist TO DO CLINICAL WORK without an APA internship?"

They are different types of work, requiring different training. Not equal.

 

[erg923]

And I agree with t4c, if you have a license, by all means practice. It's your right and privilege. Employers don't have to agree to hire you though.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Since the APA chose to allow non APA internships, that ship has sailed. It's simply not fair to loosen the screw on the standard, let people through, then tighten it again. Even if I were "grandfathered in" I still don't have an APA internship, even though I may be licensed. And yes, I think internships should be reviewed and such.

It's my understanding that the APA didn't allow these. Rather, the APA can't (as far as I know) prohibit them from being offered, particularly as licensing standards are up to state governments, not the APA.

However, the APA now trying to push for national standards is one way of potentially prohibiting these in the future, as establishing that standard will provide an easy reference for politicians who know little about the topic themselves.

 

[psyman]

It's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair...

Fair to whom? You? Patients? The larger profession? If you are referring to "you," I will tell you what I tell my son-The world ain't fair. Get used to it.

I think those in training now and those finishing, like yourself, should be grandfathered in. But this fairness you speak of should really be reconceptualized to be about fairness to patients and the larger health of this field. I don't want my profession to become an irrelevant/marginalized allied service on the fringes of the healthcare system in the sake of being "fair" to a bunch people who didn't want to fall in line with a training practice (accreditation) that is standard and unquestioned in every other health service profession.

As usual, I don't love your tone, but I agree with you.

You implied it here

"You guys honestly don't find it at all ironic that the VA will hire a masters level clinician, but not a psychologist TO DO CLINICAL WORK without an APA internship?"

They are different types of work, requiring different training. Not equal.

Can a psychologist not specialize in marriage and family and want that position? I don't see why not. (you referenced an MFT position I think)

 

[erg923]

You'd have to pay them psychologist pay grade..

 

[WisNeuro]

They can, but they would probably get a general mental health position and see couples within that position rather than apply for a MFT position at lower grade. They would probably have to do general mental health primarily and marriage work secondarily.

 

[WisNeuro]

The thing you'd have to understand is clinical privileges afforded to certain positions. They are vastly different between psychologists, MFT's, social workers, etc.

 

[psyman]

It's my understanding that the APA didn't allow these. Rather, the APA can't (as far as I know) prohibit them from being offered, particularly as licensing standards are up to state governments, not the APA.

However, the APA now trying to push for national standards is one way of potentially prohibiting these in the future, as establishing that standard will provide an easy reference for politicians who know little about the topic themselves.

Hmm. At what point did an APA internship not become an absolute requirement of an APA program?

You'd have to pay them psychologist pay grade..

They can, but they would probably get a general mental health position and see couples within that position rather than apply for a MFT position at lower grade. They would probably have to do general mental health primarily and marriage work secondarily.

The thing you'd have to understand is clinical privileges afforded to certain positions. They are vastly different between psychologists, MFT's, social workers, etc.

Got it.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Hmm. At what point did an APA internship not become an absolute requirement of an APA program.

Good question; I honestly don't know if it's ever been an explicit requirement. It's just that non-accredited internships are a "newer" thing, and the APA has done a poor job of keeping up with the times (particularly on this topic).

 

[psyman]

Good question; I honestly don't know if it's ever been an explicit requirement. It's just that non-accredited internships are a "newer" thing, and the APA has done a poor job of keeping up with the times (particularly on this topic).

"APA has done a poor job."

Something we can all agree on!

 

[psychtalk1274]

Certain APA accredited programs, such as the one I come from, require an APA internship otherwise no dice.

 

[WisNeuro]

Certain APA accredited programs, such as the one I come from, require an APA internship otherwise no dice.

Mine did as well.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Certain APA accredited programs, such as the one I come from, require an APA internship otherwise no dice.

That would help keep the match rate up! My program highly recommends APA but didn't mandate it. In my cohort the students that didn't match to an APA site were those who weren't geographically flexible. One of our top students failed to match to APA and chose Appic unpaid slot for that precise reason.

 

[cara susanna]

It's my understanding that the APA didn't allow these. Rather, the APA can't (as far as I know) prohibit them from being offered, particularly as licensing standards are up to state governments, not the APA.

However, the APA now trying to push for national standards is one way of potentially prohibiting these in the future, as establishing that standard will provide an easy reference for politicians who know little about the topic themselves.

I think that in a way APA did allow it by accrediting programs with poor APA match rates.

My program requires APA on your first shot, but if you don't match you can go non-APA with a faculty vote.

 

[Ollie123]

Its quite common for programs to require APA internships. My program didn't go quite that far, but you had to request special permission to apply to an APPIC internship. I haven't heard of anyone actually doing so...the attitude is generally "APA or bust." This is likely one of the reasons that as discrepant as the match rate may be across programs...it is WILDLY discrepant when you look at APA internships.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Certain APA accredited programs, such as the one I come from, require an APA internship otherwise no dice.

Mine did as well, I just don't think it's ever actually been mandated by APA themselves in order for grad programs to attain/retain accreditation. They just have to get their students into some kind of acceptable internship.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Its quite common for programs to require APA internships. My program didn't go quite that far, but you had to request special permission to apply to an APPIC internship. I haven't heard of anyone actually doing so...the attitude is generally "APA or bust."

Same here: Every cohort before and after me goes through the process with the "APA or bust" attitude. I've heard of some programs creating consortium internships, but even if those are new sites, the plan is for APA accreditation as soon as possible.