Internships for International Students

[evan9]

Just wondering if anyone knows if there are many international students missing out on internships this year?

Are many international students getting Commonwealth internships?

Thanks so much.

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[pitman]

There won't be anything but anecdotes for a couple of months, but anecdotally, yes, close to 100 would have gotten CMI spots. AMSA and the AMA will hopefully report on survey results later in the year that may shed light on how many of those who didn't get a state or CMI spot got a job back home.

 

[qldking]

There won't be anything but anecdotes for a couple of months, but anecdotally, yes, close to 100 would have gotten CMI spots. AMSA and the AMA will hopefully report on survey results later in the year that may shed light on how many of those who didn't get a state or CMI spot got a job back home.

What we need is a report detailing the number of internationals who wanted a spot here but weren't given one and had to resort to going back home.

 

[REDHAWK2]

If I'm not mistaken qldking your still a student? Do you mind commentating on the atmosphere in Queensland with regards to this topic. Are people confident they can get back home? Are they all scared they could end up with nothing?

 

[qldking]

If I'm not mistaken qldking your still a student? Do you mind commentating on the atmosphere in Queensland with regards to this topic. Are people confident they can get back home? Are they all scared they could end up with nothing?

I graduated a few years ago (between 2 and 3 years ago).

I think in terms of applying for internship with QLD Health there are essentially only 3 places for internationals--Rockhampton, Townsville, and Mackay. Apparently Townsville has like 80 interns and many late vacancies but I cannot imagine what sort of work there would be out there for so many interns.

Newest rumor is that CMI may be ceasing within the next couple of years for a variety of financial and political reasons that are extraneous to the actual success of the initiative.

I can't comment on current students' confidence but I will say to avoid Qld Health like the plague if you can.

 

[pitman]

Newest rumour? No, there is no plan to get rid of the CMI program "within the next couple of years", and rumour-milling is not how policies like this work or change.

Int'ls are generally placed in Brisbane every year before the CMI campaign, so I don't know where you've come up with just three hospitals -- knowing such would require knowing where all int'ls went, which you don't.

There isn't much meaning in a survey asking grads where they wanted to do internship. That sort of self-reporting is notoriously unreliable (conditional and revisionist), and in particular, enough have left Australia midway through each year after committing to Qld (promising that they'd prefer to stay) once they've gotten a spot in N. America, that one can't rely on the answers. Simply knowing where grads went, how many applied vs. got jobs via state ballot, CMI, and back home, is more helpful. It's also what ultimately matters for Policy (that int'l grads get jobs, not that they get their most preferred jobs). The most telling stat will IMO be what percentage/how many of those who applied for a CMI spot (i.e., after not getting one via state ballot) but didn't get offered one, ended up with a job back home.

 

[qldking]

Newest rumour? No, there is no plan to get rid of the CMI program "within the next couple of years", and rumour-milling is not how policies like this work or change.

Int'ls are generally placed in Brisbane every year before the CMI campaign, so I don't know where you've come up with just three hospitals -- knowing such would require knowing where all int'ls went, which you don't.

There isn't much meaning in a survey asking grads where they wanted to do internship. That sort of self-reporting is notoriously unreliable (conditional and revisionist), and in particular, enough have left Australia midway through each year after committing to Qld (promising that they'd prefer to stay) once they've gotten a spot in N. America, that one can't rely on the answers. Simply knowing where grads went, how many applied vs. got jobs via state ballot, CMI, and back home, is more helpful. It's also what ultimately matters for Policy (that int'l grads get jobs, not that they get their most preferred jobs). The most telling stat will IMO be what percentage/how many of those who applied for a CMI spot (i.e., after not getting one via state ballot) but didn't get offered one, ended up with a job back home.

1. CMI was for 3 years, and set to expire. There's a very possible chance the program does not get renewed.

2. Notice how I said 'QLD HEALTH.' It's very easy to chart where UQ internationals are allocated by the Qld Health campaign.

3. There is a great deal of meaning in where they wanted to go for internship. The reason they go back to North America is because they find it a better option to whatever they are allocated to here, Wanting to know about someone's preferences is sort of the point of why humans do anything in life.

 

[pitman]

1. CMI was for 3 years, and set to expire. There's a very possible chance the program does not get renewed.

Four years of funding. And you referred to rumours of a plan, as though you've heard something meaningful. You also said before that there was a very real chance there wouldn't be CMI spots this year. Obviously, for any year, the program can be ceased. You think you know any more than this? Then cough up your sources, because with your track record, it would appear you simply made this crap up again.

2. Notice how I said 'QLD HEALTH.' It's very easy to chart where UQ internationals are allocated by the Qld Health campaign.

Go ahead then, and chart the final tally of where those int'ls went. Sources included.

3. There is a great deal of meaning in where they wanted to go for internship. The reason they go back to North America is because they find it a better option to whatever they are allocated to here, Wanting to know about someone's preferences is sort of the point of why humans do anything in life.

You really don't pay attention to detail. I said -- and elaborated on why -- there isn't much meaning in *asking* them. The stats give more reliable indicators. Int'ls will surely be asked incredibly uninsightful questions about what they 'wanted' so that their answers could be used by the likes of AMSA for political purposes, but that doesn't get around the many problems with self-reporting of desire. Even if you could trust the answers, take, for example, some of the problems with the "simple" question of where one wanted to do internship -- at a particular hospital, anywhere in Qld by state ballot, anywhere in Australia by state ballot, Qld by CMI (with the restrictive contract terms but different locale options), or other states by CMI, versus going back to, say, Canada, but where in Canada -- Toronto over Mackay but Brisbane over Toronto but Mackay over The Yukon? And how much *weight* do they put on each of these preferences?

People don't think as black-and-white as you portray yourself here, qldking. There are so many conditions and nuances to people's desires that in the event those surveyed *can* give an honest answer (student preferences for colleges are known to be affected by their application results), the results would be nearly meaningless, and yet endlessly debated. And yet many will try to use the results to lobby to change (or not change) policy. And prospective students will have no better idea of their chances at staying. It is far more meaningful to stick to the least of ambiguous stats, e.g., of how many applied for which spots, how many bailed months later after getting accepted back home (allowing others who didn't, to remain), and where those ultimately rejected ended up. Behaviorists redefined psychology by looking at behavior, or choice, for a reason.

 

[TaksuHim]

I agree that for the international student perspectives, those who know they want to specialise especially in surgical speciaties perceive CMI as not very optimal.

Already, in terms of the medical training situation, Australia has high influx of IMG doctors, and with some that are pretty well-trained and experienced, some are even Heads of Departments and Professors in their specialties.

If you are talking about surgical specialties, even General Surgery is considered competitive, and you will be doing a few years of Principal House Officer work (without getting into a specialty college training) before you can get on the training programme. Even if they solve the problem of getting internship for the large number of graduating medical student, the problem is the bottleneck down the road when you are talking about specialising.

I spoke to some colleagues from US, Singapore and Malaysia. Those aiming for surgical specialties are likely to go home, more so for Singaporeans and Malaysians. Singapore is a destination for Malaysians, given the geographical proximity, where the route to specialty is faster provided you prove yourself.

Because the terms of the CMI are such that you have to do a return of service one year in a rural location, that is considered a year lost in terms of getting contacts or consultants who could write you good letters in order for you to get into a training programme of your choice.

That is the other reason why people do not find CMI that optimal. The part about Canadians and Americans leaving the programme halfway is true. Ironic part was that they closed their doors to International Medical Uni students, though some manage to land spots on Mackay. I always thought that the Malaysian IMU students are more likely to stay. They are likely to encounter widespread discrimination if they went home to Malaysia, though Singapore is another popular destination due to cultural similarity.

But in all, actually, it's not even a good time to be a post PGY-1 trainee in Australia with the bottleneck. Number of specialty training spots have not increased in tandem with graduating numbers...and number of specialist jobs have not increased too.

1. CMI was for 3 years, and set to expire. There's a very possible chance the program does not get renewed.

2. Notice how I said 'QLD HEALTH.' It's very easy to chart where UQ internationals are allocated by the Qld Health campaign.

3. There is a great deal of meaning in where they wanted to go for internship. The reason they go back to North America is because they find it a better option to whatever they are allocated to here, Wanting to know about someone's preferences is sort of the point of why humans do anything in life.

 

[qldking]

That's a serious flaw in the process if International Medical School graduates are getting spots over internationals who have spent the entire duration of medical school here.