Is a formal post-bac worth it over a self-structured one?

[Razra]

Hey everyone,

I'm entering my senior year of university and I'm planning to apply to premedical post-bac programs.. I was not able to take my prerequisites during earlier years of undergrad because I realized too late I wanted to go to into the medical field, and my university has a limit on units that prevents me from taking any classes that do not count towards my major (they'd essentially force me to graduate before I could finish my honors thesis project).

So now comes the decision of whether I should do a formal post-bac, or a DIY one. Initially, I was strongly inclined towards doing a formal one (still am), but a few people have told me it is not necessary.. I can just enroll as a non-degree seeking student and take the required courses.

It would probably be cheaper than spending $25-45k on a formal post-bac program. However, I am not guaranteed to have a seat in the classes I need (low priority registration), and I would like to finish as soon as possible. Additionally, I am doubting I can get into any of the more reputable post-bac programs because of my low standardized test scores. I am planning to take the GRE on the 17th of September, which may be a little late for the programs whose application acceptances begin on September 1st and admit students on a rolling basis. I may apply for these formal programs when my scores are ready to be sent out, but still..

Is it a better idea to do a formal post bac? Would it provide an edge in being a more competitive applicant for medical school?

I've included the following information, if it helps in determining the best course of action:

Psychology major, currently have a 3.78 cGPA as of Spring 2014

• Research experience working on a behavioral neuroscience project, and developing and completing my own honors thesis project in behavioral neuroscience.
• Just completed a summer internship in molecular neuroscience.
• I've been shadowing a cardiovascular surgeon and helping a bit with his clinical research for only about 70 hours. We're also working on writing a review; I am helping him conduct the literature review and will be helping to develop the actual paper for publication.
• I'll be working as a Supplemental Instruction leader for a neuroscience class (Fall and Spring semester).
• I've worked as a Krav Maga assistant instructor, helped lead a few self-defense seminars for women in collaboration with a professor from my university. Still training, but I don't teach anymore unless they're short-staffed and need me to step in.
• Worked as an intern for an FBI program. Mostly it was just for young college-aged kids who wanted to know what careers in the field were like, but I did do some writing/editing for some of their smaller-branch programs' websites.

If there's anything else I should mention, please let me know. Thank you!

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[kraskadva]

Alternately you could add a second major that requires all the pre-req courses and finish everything where you are.
If they won't let you do that (then you go to a strange school) you can apply to do a DIY post-bacc in the form of a second bachelor's. This gives you the priority registration and decreased tuition. You do not have to finish a 2nd bacc, but it's a way to game the system.
Formal post-baccs/SMPs are mostly a last resort kinda thing.

 

[QuentinT88]

dude, there are hundreds of past threads on sdn of pple asking this question. just do a quick search and you'll get all the info you need

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Formal post-baccs/SMPs are mostly a last resort kinda thing.

Although I agree with your post generally, I think calling it a "last resort" paints the wrong picture. These can actually be the first resort for people in a particular setting. Meaning if you are done with college and either don't have the prereqs or need to otherwise prove to med schools that you would thrive there. In that setting formal post-bac would be the ideal, and DIY would be the fallback. The fact that these programs sometimes have linkage, strong advising, a reputation with med schools and/or that the administrators are even sometimes extremely active in meeting with med school deans to pitch their graduates, often elevates them above the DIY option. But I agree the OP isn't necessarily in that situation if they are still in college. It's certainly cheaper to wrap this into college and extend graduation by a year, but cheap and strategic aren't always equal.

I've kind of come to the conclusion over the years that there's actually probably some strategic benefit in terms of med school admission to take no sciences in college, take nothing but easy fun courses in college, and graduate with an A average. Then do a Postbac, take the prereqs at a slower pace without other college course distractions and do well at them as well. You will be applying with a higher GPA and the endorsement of a postbac which will be more personalized than the committee letter of a college with hundreds of premeds. Just saying.

 

[meander]

Additionally, I am doubting I can get into any of the more reputable post-bac programs because of my low standardized test scores. I am planning to take the GRE on the 17th of September, which may be a little late for the programs whose application acceptances begin on September 1st and admit students on a rolling basis. I may apply for these formal programs when my scores are ready to be sent out, but still.

The importance of applying early to the formal career changer postbacs is greatly overblown -- many of my classmates applied/interviewed late in the cycle. It is NOT like the MD process where so much depends on getting your app complete early. It would absolutely be better to wait for your GRE score to come back than to apply early.

That said, to get into a career changer postbac that isn't a waste of money straight out of college, you have to have a very strong application. Are you at an elite school? Do you have a great answer to "Why medicine, why now?" or just an OK one? Do you have any volunteer work/community service? Would you add to the diversity of a program?

If you can get into one of the top formal postbacs (the list is debatable but most would agree on Bryn Mawr, Goucher, JHU, and perhaps Scripps/Mills on the west coast) then it is probably worth doing. If not, save your money and go DIY. Do not throw your money away on Columbia or NYU.

Lastly, in case it isn't clear, you're not talking about doing an SMP or "record enhancer" post bac so don't get confused by advice that is geared toward that.

 

[kraskadva]

Although I agree with your post generally, I think calling it a "last resort" paints the wrong picture. These can actually be the first resort for people in a particular setting. Meaning if you are done with college and either don't have the prereqs or need to otherwise prove to med schools that you would thrive there. In that setting formal post-bac would be the ideal, and DIY would be the fallback. The fact that these programs sometimes have linkage, strong advising, a reputation with med schools and/or that the administrators are even sometimes extremely active in meeting with med school deans to pitch their graduates, often elevates them above the DIY option. But I agree the OP isn't necessarily in that situation if they are still in college. It's certainly cheaper to wrap this into college and extend graduation by a year, but cheap and strategic aren't always equal.

I've kind of come to the conclusion over the years that there's actually probably some strategic benefit in terms of med school admission to take no sciences in college, take nothing but easy fun courses in college, and graduate with an A average. Then do a Postbac, take the prereqs at a slower pace without other college course distractions and do well at them as well. You will be applying with a higher GPA and the endorsement of a postbac which will be more personalized than the committee letter of a college with hundreds of premeds. Just saying.

Good points for the general case, but I think we both agree that it's not what's needed for this specific person.

 

[BSN2014]

I didn't want to start a new topic, since this seems to be a relevant one...

The school I'm considering for pre-med courses is willing to cover 1 year of pre-reqs (as a special non-degree seeking student) with federal loans and work-study, but they will not provide federal aid for "courses that are taken to improve GPA" (repeats). I have taken a few of the pre-reqs (biology 1, a&p 1 & 2, general chem 1 & 2, microbiology) since they were my pre-reqs for nursing school. Essentially I would have to pay for the repeated courses out-of-pocket. I don't really have the funds for that at the moment. I'm not sure how much work-study would help with those costs, and I'm fairly certain that my pre-reqs will require more than 1 year to complete.

The idea to start a second bachelor's degree and then "not finish" is looking more appealing, since I would qualify for more financial aid, priority registration, premed advising, etc. I would also be able to take the repeated courses without paying for them out-of-pocket. The only problem I have with this option is that I dropped out of high school when I was 16. Would "not finishing" a college degree potentially shed some negative light on my history of not completing education? I have acquired an associate's and bachelor's degree since then, and I'm guilty of maybe 2-3 C's, zero D's and zero failing grades during my entire post-secondary education. It may sound like a pointless concern, but I just don't want to ruin my chances of getting in med school.

 

[GreenDuck12]

This is a pretty common strategy that others have used to access all of the things you mention (financial aid, higher priority for registration, medical school advising, etc). As for your concerns:
-Will your enrollment as a degree seeking student appear on your transcript? My guess is that it won't (a major may appear). If this is the case, medical schools will not know your enrollment status and will already see that you have earned one bachelors degree. You really do not need a second unless you are recovering from a low GPA the first time around.
-Are there any other red flags that indicate a lack of ability to follow through on your commitments? Medical schools will not see that you dropped out of high school at 16 (unless you discuss it in your personal statement, in which case highlight your upward climb) without a significant background check.
-How is your overall GPA/sGPA?

I didn't want to start a new topic, since this seems to be a relevant one...

The school I'm considering for pre-med courses is willing to cover 1 year of pre-reqs (as a special non-degree seeking student) with federal loans and work-study, but they will not provide federal aid for "courses that are taken to improve GPA" (repeats). I have taken a few of the pre-reqs (biology 1, a&p 1 & 2, general chem 1 & 2, microbiology) since they were my pre-reqs for nursing school. Essentially I would have to pay for the repeated courses out-of-pocket. I don't really have the funds for that at the moment. I'm not sure how much work-study would help with those costs, and I'm fairly certain that my pre-reqs will require more than 1 year to complete.

The idea to start a second bachelor's degree and then "not finish" is looking more appealing, since I would qualify for more financial aid, priority registration, premed advising, etc. I would also be able to take the repeated courses without paying for them out-of-pocket. The only problem I have with this option is that I dropped out of high school when I was 16. Would "not finishing" a college degree potentially shed some negative light on my history of not completing education? I have acquired an associate's and bachelor's degree since then, and I'm guilty of maybe 2-3 C's, zero D's and zero failing grades during my entire post-secondary education. It may sound like a pointless concern, but I just don't want to ruin my chances of getting in med school.

 

[BSN2014]

This is a pretty common strategy that others have used to access all of the things you mention (financial aid, higher priority for registration, medical school advising, etc). As for your concerns:
-Will your enrollment as a degree seeking student appear on your transcript? My guess is that it won't (a major may appear). If this is the case, medical schools will not know your enrollment status and will already see that you have earned one bachelors degree. You really do not need a second unless you are recovering from a low GPA the first time around.
-Are there any other red flags that indicate a lack of ability to follow through on your commitments? Medical schools will not see that you dropped out of high school at 16 (unless you discuss it in your personal statement, in which case highlight your upward climb) without a significant background check.
-How is your overall GPA/sGPA?

Would there be any potential benefit to discussing it?

I left for several reasons: dealing with a chronic illness (inflammatory arthritis), a simultaneous death in the family, and also because it was an acceptable "norm" in my family/background. (Poor, rural upbringing.)

I attempted to redeem myself quickly after that. I acquired my GED a couple of months later and started taking college courses at the CC level, a few at a time, during that same year. I slowly worked myself up to a full-time course load, and acquired my associate's. Then I decided that I wanted to be a BSN-prepared RN, so I transferred to a four-year state university.

My cGPA for my associate's is 3.6. For my bachelor's, it is 3.4. My undergrad major was nursing. My sGPA is 2.95 - I made mostly B's and some A's but I did make a couple of C's in an introductory algebra and biology course. I also had one C+ in a nursing pathophysiology class I took in the summer before starting nursing school. The algebra and biology course were at the CC level before I entered nursing school. Once I entered nursing school, I didn't make anything below a B.

The non-nursing science courses I have taken are:

Principles of Biology 1 - C
Survey of Chem 1 - B
Human A&P 1 - B+
Survey of Chem 2 - B
Human A&P 2 - B
Etiology of Infectious Diseases (the equivalent of microbiology at my school) - A-
Etiology lab - B+

I've also had courses in normal/therapeutic nutrition (A), women's health (A), medical terminology (A), and General Psych (B). Of those, only General Psych was at the CC level.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Make sure you calculate your sGPA using the AAMC guidelines. As of now, your cGPA is a little low for allopathic but not terribly. Your sGPA is going to pose the biggest challenge. You are going to have to finish the pre-req classes and if you do well, it will help a bit. You are going to need to either take more BCPM classes to raise your sGPA to a more competitive level. Likely, you are looking at 3 to 4 semesters of coursework (which may end up being enough for a second degree).

My cGPA for my associate's is 3.6. For my bachelor's, it is 3.4. My undergrad major was nursing. My sGPA is 2.95 - I made mostly B's and some A's but I did make a couple of C's in an introductory algebra and biology course. I also had one C+ in a nursing patho class I took in the summer before starting nursing school. The algebra and biology course were at the CC level before I entered nursing school. Once I entered nursing school, I didn't make anything below a B.

The non-nursing science courses I have taken are:

Principles of Biology 1 - C
Survey of Chem 1 - B
Human A & P 1 - B+
Survey of Chem 2 - B
Human A&P 2 - B
Etiology of Infectious Diseases - A-
Etiology lab - B+

I've also had courses in normal/therapeutic nutrition (A), women's health (A), medical terminology (A), and General Psych (B). Of those, only General Psych was at the CC level.

 

[BSN2014]

Make sure you calculate your sGPA using the AAMC guidelines. As of now, your cGPA is a little low for allopathic but not terribly. Your sGPA is going to pose the biggest challenge. You are going to have to finish the pre-req classes and if you do well, it will help a bit. You are going to need to either take more BCPM classes to raise your sGPA to a more competitive level. Likely, you are looking at 3 to 4 semesters of coursework (which may end up being enough for a second degree).

Should I retake some of the pre-reqs I already have? Or should my focus be primarily on doing as well as possible on the rest of my pre-reqs, and picking up some more BCPM courses?

At the very least, I'm thinking that retaking biology 1 wouldn't be a bad idea, though I'm not sure how much it would benefit me to retake all of the "B" courses.

 

[Promethean]

Re-takes help you much more if you are applying for DO schools, since they allow grade replacement. They may help your allopathic application if you get As on the retake, since it will demonstrate eventual mastery of the topic and will help bring up your sGPA, but less so that in the osteopathic application system.

I used to be 100% DIY as the best way to go. I still feel that DIY via community college on the cheap is way better than a formal post bacc if it isn't associated with a med school. But if you can do your post bacc at a med school, with a guarantee or at least higher chance of acceptance at that school, I now think that is the preferable route to take. Knowing you have a seat is darn near priceless, and I know the post baccs at LECOM are fantastically well prepared to be first years here. They rock, and generally help the rest of us cope.

 

[BSN2014]

Re-takes help you much more if you are applying for DO schools, since they allow grade replacement. They may help your allopathic application if you get As on the retake, since it will demonstrate eventual mastery of the topic and will help bring up your sGPA, but less so that in the osteopathic application system.

I used to be 100% DIY as the best way to go. I still feel that DIY via community college on the cheap is way better than a formal post bacc if it isn't associated with a med school. But if you can do your post bacc at a med school, with a guarantee or at least higher chance of acceptance at that school, I now think that is the preferable route to take. Knowing you have a seat is darn near priceless, and I know the post baccs at LECOM are fantastically well prepared to be first years here. They rock, and generally help the rest of us cope.

I probably should have specified. I'm interested in MD/allopathic programs.

I'm not sure a post bacc program is the best option for me. I already have $30,000 worth of student loans. A post bacc program would potentially add on another $20,000 - probably more. I live within an hour of a state university with its own medical school. I was planning to take my pre-med courses there, and apply to, among other schools, that medical school.

Then again, if I end up having to get a 2nd bachelors (or come close to getting one) I may end up taking out that much in loans, anyway. A post bacc (one that doesn't mind that I have taken some pre-reqs already and need to re-take them + take more BCPM courses) is tempting. I guess I'm just concerned about the time constraints placed on courses (taking courses in the summer, for example) in addition to the cost. I also don't have the "stats" that a lot of post baccs seem to be looking for - many of them want (presumably good) SAT/ACT scores. Mine are from eons ago and not a good reflection of my abilities.

Edit: Also, ideally, I would like to stay in my state (NC). I don't know of any good post bacc programs in my state.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Formal programs are beneficial for students that are career changers and haven't taken any of the pre-req classes. The programs that tend to have things like high med acceptance percentages and linkages typically only accept applicants with a record of high academic achievement. These programs do a lot more hand holding, which can be beneficial, but they come a significant premium. It is a personal choice. Personally, I didn't see the value in playing an additional $25k for it.

As for your interest in allopathic schools, as the poster above noted, retaking classes will have a limited impact on your GPA. However, for osteopathic schools, retaking classes for higher grades will have a significant impact. For allopathic schools, you are going to need to have a cGPA and sGPA above a 3.5 combined with a strong MCAT score. Looking at your current sGPA, you are going to need to double the amount of science credits (BCPM) with a 4.0 GPA in order to raise your sGPA to a 3.5. Now, depending on the number of credits you have earned, this may be relatively quick/easy or unrealistic due to financial and/or time constraints. I would not write off osteopathic schools entirely, nor would I recommend only applying to osteopathic schools. I would recommend researching the options that you have to increase your chances at earning an admission to medical school. Check out the low GPA recovery thread to learn about how others have gone about improving their stats.

As for your classes, the good news is that you still need to take:
- 2nd semester of Bio
- Organic chem 1 and 2
- Physics 1 and 2
- Biochemistry.
Optional but helpful: molecular bio, genetics, cell bio, statistics, maybe pre-calc/calc

This should give you a good chance to increase your GPA

I probably should have specified. I'm interested in MD/allopathic programs.

I'm not sure a post bacc program is the best option for me. I already have $30,000 worth of student loans. A post bacc program would potentially add on another $20,000 - probably more. I live within an hour of a state university with its own medical school. I was planning to take my pre-med courses there, and apply to, among other schools, that medical school.

Then again, if I end up having to get a 2nd bachelors (or come close to getting one) I may end up taking out that much in loans, anyway. A post bacc (one that doesn't mind that I have taken some pre-reqs already and need to re-take them + take more BCPM courses) is tempting. I guess I'm just concerned about the time constraints placed on courses (taking courses in the summer, for example) in addition to the cost. I also don't have the "stats" that a lot of post baccs seem to be looking for - many of them want (presumably good) SAT/ACT scores. Mine are from eons ago and not a good reflection of my abilities.

Edit: Also, ideally, I would like to stay in my state (NC). I don't know of any good post bacc programs in my state.

 

[BSN2014]

Formal programs are beneficial for students that are career changers and haven't taken any of the pre-req classes. The programs that tend to have things like high med acceptance percentages and linkages typically only accept applicants with a record of high academic achievement. These programs do a lot more hand holding, which can be beneficial, but they come a significant premium. It is a personal choice. Personally, I didn't see the value in playing an additional $25k for it.

As for your interest in allopathic schools, as the poster above noted, retaking classes will have a limited impact on your GPA. However, for osteopathic schools, retaking classes for higher grades will have a significant impact. For allopathic schools, you are going to need to have a cGPA and sGPA above a 3.5 combined with a strong MCAT score. Looking at your current sGPA, you are going to need to double the amount of science credits (BCPM) with a 4.0 GPA in order to raise your sGPA to a 3.5. Now, depending on the number of credits you have earned, this may be relatively quick/easy or unrealistic due to financial and/or time constraints. I would not write off osteopathic schools entirely, nor would I recommend only applying to osteopathic schools. I would recommend researching the options that you have to increase your chances at earning an admission to medical school. Check out the low GPA recovery thread to learn about how others have gone about improving their stats.

As for your classes, the good news is that you still need to take:
- 2nd semester of Bio
- Organic chem 1 and 2
- Physics 1 and 2
- Biochemistry.
Optional but helpful: molecular bio, genetics, cell bio, statistics, maybe pre-calc/calc

This should give you a good chance to increase your GPA

I agree with you about post bacc. For me, it seems like the cons outweigh the pros (for my personal situation). There's really no reason to spend $25,000 unless I have to...I would much rather reserve those funds for med school.

Thank you for writing such a detailed reply. It seemed overwhelming at first, but after looking at that list, it is totally do-able.