Most docs around here match their CL prices to 1-800 or Walmart. Really, only a fool would pay more at an ODs office for a box of contacts they can get down the street cheaper (unless it's just for convienence). Especially in this economy.
Is Anyone Actually Satisfied?
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Most docs around here match their CL prices to 1-800 or Walmart. Really, only a fool would pay more at an ODs office for a box of contacts they can get down the street cheaper (unless it's just for convienence). Especially in this economy.
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Before responding to this, I think it's necessary for me to be transparent. Up until about a year ago I owned a private practice, and for the last 6 years I traveled around the country lecturing on how to be profitable selling contact lenses. I now work for Bausch + Lomb where I interact directly or indirectly with 1,000s of ODs. Very few are matching their prices to 1800/Wal-Mart since they don't have to. If you look at the price of lenses at 1800/Wal-Mart, with the possible exception of some 2-week lenses, the OD office is on par after mail-in rebate with about a $100 profit on an annual supply. For example, right now you can buy PureVision lenses on 1800 for $49.99 a box, or $179.96 for 4 boxes ($44.99 per box). The last wholesale price I saw for PureVision was about $31 a box with most practices charging $55 ($220 per year) with a $40 rebate on top of that. That brings the price down to $180 for 4 boxes. Air Optix and Night & Day work out similar. If you are really selling your lenses for $1-$3 about wholesale, you should stop selling lenses in your office. When you factor in the time it takes your staff to deal with contact lenses, including insertion and removal training, ordering lenses, patient notification and pick-up if sent to the office, etc you are actually losing money.
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Exactly. At this point it is just a convenience to your patients with you taking a loss. You should charge slightly more because you are giving your patients expert guidance. Are you no better than Walmart? Nobody can beat their prices but there is a reason all other types of stores are not out of business. Some people value quality over price.
I think you are missing the point, $3 or $9 makes no difference, either way there is very little profit to be had in selling off the shelf cl's. Not like the glory days when ODs could sell cls for several hundred dollars profit.
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You can try pushing RGPs and ortho-k.
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I didn't miss the point, but what I caught was a fundamental issue with optometrists that won't get solved on this site.
I dont like orthok, but I do some other specialty fits, and those can be rewarding, but I think this discussion was more about boxed cls like you see at wallyworld
True. The issue with a few dollars profit on a box of CLs in irrelevent really. Standing in front of the door and trying to 'sucker' the patient into buying boxes of contact lenses with rebate coupons or whatever is pathetic and reeks of desperation.
The lack of patients is by FAR the # 1 problem in most parts of the country followed not too far behind with insurance company unfair play.
I and we have no control over either. Thus, the profession is doomed as I have been saying, as both are predicted to get worse, not better in the future by most everyone with an IQ about 90 that is actually involved in the practice of optometry.
I just referred two patients out (consults really). One to a cornea OMD. First opening in 4 months. The other was to a dermatologist. First opening is in 7 months. If optometry was in this boat, there would be little bitching.
But every OD I know will happily get a routine patient in TODAY. Are we just nicer? Or are we just more desperate? Feel free to decide amongst yourself.
The lack of patients is by FAR the # 1 problem in most parts of the country followed not too far behind with insurance company unfair play.
I and we have no control over either. Thus, the profession is doomed as I have been saying, as both are predicted to get worse, not better in the future by most everyone with an IQ about 90 that is actually involved in the practice of optometry.
I just referred two patients out (consults really). One to a cornea OMD. First opening in 4 months. The other was to a dermatologist. First opening is in 7 months. If optometry was in this boat, there would be little bitching.
But every OD I know will happily get a routine patient in TODAY. Are we just nicer? Or are we just more desperate? Feel free to decide amongst yourself.
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I was a pharmacist and worked for a year.. didn't like it personally and was very bored. I went into optometry a year after and now as an optometrist it is more satisfying.
Yes, optometry is definately above pharmacy and chiropractor. But below every other health care field probably.
I couldn't imagine standing behind a Walgreens counter counting pills all day long listening to ignorant people whine about their copay or why they can't have 16 bottles of percocet at a time.
Chiropractors are complete quacks. I have no idea how they managed to bribe enough people to get covered by Medicare and Medicaid and even the military I think.
So there's some good news. There are 2 health profession worse off than optometry (although financially pharmacy is better off initially).
I don't think a public forum is the place to be discussing pricing strategies, especially as a B&L rep.
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Why not?
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I think I understand your concern however, I did not discuss pricing strategies. I simply used non-confidential information from when I was practicing to make a point. If you believe it would sound better to be more specific and state that those numbers, with the exception of the current 1800 price I found on the internet, were based on my former private practice, I am happy to.
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B&L still make lenses? Hehehehe
You could but I highly doubt you convince that many people.
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Very tough positions to get, especially since they pay nice benefits etc.
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Businesses do this all the time.
If it works for them, it's not pathetic. It's actually pretty smart.
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Businesses do this all the time.
I think the point is, it doesn't "work" for them since they're losing money. It's a desperate attempt to hang onto a meager profit and/or not to lose a few bucks when the patient runs to Sam's Club to fill their Rx. In my area, Sam's sells many premium CL brands to customers well below my cost. Trying to beg and plead with a patient to fill their CLRx in my office when they could go down the street and buy the same product for a 40% discount is, in my opinion, pathetic. I totally agree with Tippytoe on this one. We've been reduced to used car salesman status when it comes to competing with Walmart/Sam's/Costco pricing schedules. There's just no way to compete when they're paying half of what we're paying for their wholesale price by buying 43 million boxes of AirOptix N&D at a time.
Businesses do this all the time.
Sure, it works for Walmart and Sears and grocery stores and the like. They are retail places. That's what people expect of them. BIG 50% OFF signs.
Doctors are supposed to be professionals. So when you merge the two either the store gets more professional or the doctor gets less professional. Can't work both ways.
How would you feel if your pedatrician starting hawking 'special' vitamins that you can only buy from his office? Or your dentists starting a sales pitch about buying one cavity filling and getting the next one half price? This is what ODs are having to get into just to pay the bills. Gimmicks. Cons. Half-truths. +0.25 sph glassses. Some are probably getting on their knees and begging for a sale (or on their knees doing something else
). (OMDs are certainly not immune to this stuff (25% off Lasik if scheduled by Valentines day or "give me $6,000 more and you might not need reading glasses after this super multifocal cataract surgery but if you do my optical will be happy to sell you some readers") but ODs are more pathetic at it overall......out of desperation.Other doctors have a little more wiggle room.
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glad to hear it worked out for you! that is great. were you an RPh or a PharmD?
what made you decide upon optometry? seems it is vastly different than pharmacy.
I have a local guy who when from pharm to optometry and currently works both (commercially). Really doesn't like either one he tells me. Spends his down time trading stocks on e-trade in between exams.
But seriously if the choice was between pharmacy vs. optometry, it would be a tough call. Optometry is a better work environment but pharmacy might be around longer and currently has more jobs available (until robots replace both---probably pharmacy first).
Probably more people bitching at you at the pharmacy counter.
But seriously if the choice was between pharmacy vs. optometry, it would be a tough call. Optometry is a better work environment but pharmacy might be around longer and currently has more jobs available (until robots replace both---probably pharmacy first).
Probably more people bitching at you at the pharmacy counter.
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There are about 150 pharmacy schools out there. Not sure if the demand can keep up with it.
Wow, is he working 7 days a week? How did he keep up with it? Most chain pharmacies like CVS require you to work a minimum of 4-5 days/week. I don't think they have fill-in. They just rotate them around.
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hey, i think this depends on your personality and where you practice. personally, i think this is a great profession. you get the "doctor" status (although some ppl in the general public still don't view optometrists as doctors), you're making a difference in people's lives, and most of the patients you see aren't that sick, although eye care does involve ocular diseases. in terms of money, that depends on your drive, your location, and your luck. i'm from Toronto, ON, Canada. and i don't know the following figures for sure (haven't done much research lately), but i believe you can range from $60K to over a mil. a yr. so the range is so big in our field it's hard to comment on that, unlike the medical field where most GPs make a certain amount. hope this helps.
Welcome to the optometry forums Dr. Chan! Great to see a new OD here, could use few more slightly optimistic ODs around here. Would love to hear how your practice is doing and great job with the twitter integration.
Hey, I was as motivated and positive as Dr. Chan during my first few years out of school. All of us are or we wouldn't even have bothered busting our butt getting through school and borrowing so much money.
I took a huge chance and borrowed $150,000 (on top of the $100,000 tuition) with no collateral except a 10 year old Isuzu truck. I opened cold and went at it full blast. I wrote for optometric journals. Did radio shows. Jumped through the hoops to become a fellow of the Academy of Optometry. I visited nursing homes to fill up my free time. I literally went door-to-door seeking patients. I felt like an Amway drone striking up conversations with people in the fast food line to let them know I was an OD and had an office near by. I opened branch offices. I shadowed OMDs to learn more about surgery (which I recommend to every new ODs because it's lacking in OD school).
My practice built up fairly quickly and after about 4-5 years, I realized it was all a farce. I was beating my head against a brick wall. I had reached my highest earning potential. Then things, beyond my control starting to take over. Medicare and all insurances started cutting their fees. Internet sales, commercial stores on every corner, beauty salons and flea markets selling contact lenses without penalty, eyeglasses available all over the city for less than I can buy them from the manufacturer, 2-3 new ODs coming to my already over populated city every year. Now 4-5 more OD schools are opening.
I realized (I'm a little slow) that my practice wasn't going to get much farther than it had gotten. 2 private practice closed in my city since I've been open over the last 14 years (guess I stole their patients because there are only so many to go around). 5-6 new commercial eyecare places have opened. I am in a run-of-the-mill mid-size normal American city. Not urban and not rural. I looked all over the state for a "rural" place to open and found there was no town or unincorporated area with a minimum population of 5,000 that didn't have at least one and usually more ODs already. And this was over 10 years ago. The 'rural' solution to our oversupply is B.S. put out my the American Optometry Association and the Association of Schools and Colleges of Optometry.
We are like used car lots. OMDs are the new car lots and ODs are the used ones. Some used car lots do okay but will never be a new Lexus dealership. Many small car lots go out of business.
So just don't think all of us ODs that are not satisfied came out of school that way. Quite the opposite.
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so what do you plan to do about this now?
Me? I'll ride it out since I'm already in the boat and closer to my destination than my point of depart. I will be retiring from optometry in the next 5 years due to real estate investments and other non-optometry endeavors (at age 50--mostly thanks to an in-law inheritance). I restore and sell classic/vintage cars and own a storage center.
It's sorta like asking a typewriter manufacture what he plans to do now that the computer has come out and is getting popular.
It is what it is. You are all going to build a business building wagons for horse carriages in 1910 as Henry Ford starts mass producing Model T's and everyone begins to buy cars and getting rid of their horses.
"Use of Optical Scan Machines" H.B. 409 Utah State Legislature 2012..................
SpecBox Coming Soon?
Remember, 1-800 has a lot of money and congressmen are easily bought. It's not about common sense or what is good for the public.
SpecBox Coming Soon?The Utah Optometric Association is very worried
The Utah Optometric Association is very worried about H.B. 408 which is being introduced for the 2012 legislative session. I know they must be worried because a volunteer optometrist from the association called me, and I'm not even a member of the UOA.It turns out they are rightfully worried because while the title, "Use of Optical Scan Machines," might seem innocuous, what is really behind the curtain is pernicious.
While there is currently no text on the le.utah.gov website for H.B. 409, sources say that the bill's sponsor, Greg Hughes, from Draper, UT (home of 1800Contacts) intends to allow the current prescription law to be changed to allow a person to buy glasses based on the reading of an autorefractor.
Apparently, the plan is for a company, like 1800Contacts, to set up a Glasses Kiosk in a popular store, like Walmart. (By the way, 1800Contacts has been selling glasses for a while.) The person puts their head in the machine, the autorefractor spits out some glasses numbers, a pupilometer measures a p.d., the person selects their frame and lens options, then they slide their credit card and wait for their glasses to arrive in the mail. (Maybe a nicer kiosk would measure the Rx in your current glasses and have you look at an eye chart, and factor those measurements into the numbers the kiosk "prescribes" you.)
While there is currently no text on the le.utah.gov website for H.B. 409, sources say that the bill's sponsor, Greg Hughes, from Draper, UT (home of 1800Contacts) intends to allow the current prescription law to be changed to allow a person to buy glasses based on the reading of an autorefractor.
Apparently, the plan is for a company, like 1800Contacts, to set up a Glasses Kiosk in a popular store, like Walmart. (By the way, 1800Contacts has been selling glasses for a while.) The person puts their head in the machine, the autorefractor spits out some glasses numbers, a pupilometer measures a p.d., the person selects their frame and lens options, then they slide their credit card and wait for their glasses to arrive in the mail. (Maybe a nicer kiosk would measure the Rx in your current glasses and have you look at an eye chart, and factor those measurements into the numbers the kiosk "prescribes" you.)
Remember, 1-800 has a lot of money and congressmen are easily bought. It's not about common sense or what is good for the public.
"Use of Optical Scan Machines" H.B. 409 Utah State Legislature 2012..................
The Utah Optometric Association is very worried
The Utah Optometric Association is very worried about H.B. 408 which is being introduced for the 2012 legislative session. I know they must be worried because a volunteer optometrist from the association called me, and I'm not even a member of the UOA.It turns out they are rightfully worried because while the title, "Use of Optical Scan Machines," might seem innocuous, what is really behind the curtain is pernicious.
While there is currently no text on the le.utah.gov website for H.B. 409, sources say that the bill's sponsor, Greg Hughes, from Draper, UT (home of 1800Contacts) intends to allow the current prescription law to be changed to allow a person to buy glasses based on the reading of an autorefractor.
Apparently, the plan is for a company, like 1800Contacts, to set up a Glasses Kiosk in a popular store, like Walmart. (By the way, 1800Contacts has been selling glasses for a while.) The person puts their head in the machine, the autorefractor spits out some glasses numbers, a pupilometer measures a p.d., the person selects their frame and lens options, then they slide their credit card and wait for their glasses to arrive in the mail. (Maybe a nicer kiosk would measure the Rx in your current glasses and have you look at an eye chart, and factor those measurements into the numbers the kiosk "prescribes" you.)
Remember, 1-800 has a lot of money and congressmen are easily bought. It's not about common sense or what is good for the public.
These types of bills show what little value is put on what Optometrist do for people. Seems like everyone is trying to kill this profession, I just hope it will last another 15-20 years.
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Gotta be honest, I've had a very similar idea.
Write a program and people will be able to essentially guide themselves through a refraction right in their own photo booth next to the claw game.
You know, as soon as a robot box starts doing refractions opticians will be throwing a fit.
Write a program and people will be able to essentially guide themselves through a refraction right in their own photo booth next to the claw game.
You know, as soon as a robot box starts doing refractions opticians will be throwing a fit.
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Is that any different than a machine asking a patient questions and through an algorithm, diagnose their problem with a prescription to follow? It could be placed inside a retail pharmacy, right next to the Maybelline make up.
Good point. I don't know why medicine will be any better off than optometry, especially now that we are getting closer to socialized medicine.
so why do people build up more and more schools if there's an oversupply of ODs?
Why does newspapers say that the optometry job outlook is looking bright?
Is optometry profession really that negative?
Perhaps all the ODs who are experiencing it positvively are less likely to come on forum to complain.
So obvious the forum will tend to be negative towards the profession, is it not?
Why does newspapers say that the optometry job outlook is looking bright?
Is optometry profession really that negative?
Perhaps all the ODs who are experiencing it positvively are less likely to come on forum to complain.
So obvious the forum will tend to be negative towards the profession, is it not?
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Because optometry IS a good profession for some people that are established especially those in more rural settings where there is more of a demand. The problem nowadays is that many students will come out with $200,000 in unsubsidized 6.8% government loans that they will have to carry for decades. This really limits your opportunities when you graduate. Also, many students are from cities and want to stay in cities. So many of the future ODs in school now will not have the same situation as previous generations of ODs that only payed like $3,000 a year for school before the huge tuition bubble.
Also, like CL Doc says medicine is becoming more socialized and optometry is gravitating to be more like medicine. So when the MDs suffer, so do the ODs. The future is not as bright as it was for ODs say 30 or 20 years ago but for me it was the right fit. In general, all professions are getting squeezed by the recession so we just have to suffer through until it is over.
Also, like CL Doc says medicine is becoming more socialized and optometry is gravitating to be more like medicine. So when the MDs suffer, so do the ODs. The future is not as bright as it was for ODs say 30 or 20 years ago but for me it was the right fit. In general, all professions are getting squeezed by the recession so we just have to suffer through until it is over.
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Already happening in BC Canada.
http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/nrm_news_releases/2004HSER0014-000190.htm
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Are you kidding me? I'd like for that machine to do what I do on a daily basis.
Oh wait... it can't place a central line, defibrillate, call consults to cardiology or neurosurgery. It can't make clinically sound decisions like trying to rule out a PE vs ACS, it can't order a CT scan or a CXR. There's no one to place a peripheral IV or administer meds.
It can't examine the patient, it can't do a pelvic or rectal exam.
That machine would base its diagnostics on subjective patient data... not going to work.
NO way.
Plus, who's going to pick up the malpractice bill? Hah.
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The idea that and MD could be replaced by a machine is ludicrous.
This is precisely the problem - MDs have a profession that is broadly based in diagnostics and management of medical problems. Optometrists have a profession that is based on determining the refractive state of our patients. You can dress it up however you'd like, but at the end of the day, ODs refract. When you remove the refraction portion, we're left with peanuts. Yes, I'm aware that there are some ODs out there who rarely refract. Yes, I'm aware that there are many ODs out there who treat medical conditions. It's irrelevant - the basis of the profession is, and always will be, refraction. When you have a machine that can do that almost as well as a trained professional, you're in big trouble. Are there some patients who would insist on a Dr's glasses prescription? Of course, but there will always be a large portion of the population that wants a pair of glasses (or two, or three) at the cheapest price they can get. If WallyWorld or Target is offering a free "exam" in a machine that will spit out an Rx, they're gonna be thrilled.
As I've said too many times to count on this site, if you sign up for optometry, you're signing up for a field with a limited shelf-life. It's being attacked from every conceivable angle and eventually, it will just give up. The optometry of the future will be refracting opticians, automated refractors spitting out Rxs, and many, many out-of-work ODs who are forced to repay loans they don't want to pay.
What it all boils down to is the above quoted text - you can't replace an MD with an automated anything - at least not in the next 100 years. You can easily replace a large part of what an OD does with both a machine and/or a far less-trained professional who charges $10-12/hr instead of $45-60/hr. If you can't see where that is going, well, you'll find out soon enough.
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Why do you see online universities spreading up faster than chlamydia at warped tour? Its all about the $.
SDN is not the best place to form your opinions. How many ODs and for how long have you shadowed?
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I agree with most of what you say except for this part. The opticians will become refracting opticians that oversee the auto-refractors while the ODs will become more medical/surgical even, in the future. 35,000 doctors won't just disappear.
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I agree with Jason... though I wonder what kind of robot will be my grandson's doctor in 100 years. I'm trying to picture it in my head - that'd be crazy.
But where are these 35,000 ODs going to find enough medical/surgical cases to pay the bills. There just isn't that much that OMDs don't/can't handle easily already. We scrape some left over red-eyes and a few glaucoma scraps up but not enough to make a living. It's the 'icing on the cake" for ODs whereas the cake is optical. Vice- Versa for OMDs which is why they are in much better shape than we are (and decided to add opticals years ago just for vacation income and to get 'even' with ODs......they (OMDs) will have the last laugh in the end as we begin to eat our young).
Fact is, most people have good eyes throughout their life. Worse thing that will happen to most people is that they will need cataract surgery if they live to be 70. Not that much money is cataract post-op care. Not a whole lot of money is monitoring diabetic patients either.
I suppose a few enterprising ODs could set up mobile shops at construction sites and wait for the eye injuries.
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Jason K, I applaud your statements. Alot of OD's out there know pathology-ocular disease extremely well- retina-glaucoma- anteriro segment- neuro. At the end of the day, we are the eye care specialist-vision. Refraction and CL's.....and vision therapy for those who do it. Be proud of our profession for providing and safeguarding people's vision. Utilize to the best of our abilites our expanded therapeutic lwas allowing us to treat medical problems and co manage anything else w/ OMD's that come our way.
Not to beat the issuew to the ground but anyone concerned about saturation of OD's look to the AOA who no interest in stopping additional OD schools of opening up. 3 opened up past 3 yrs and 1 more ready to open doors in 08-2012. That should piss off many!
Not to beat the issuew to the ground but anyone concerned about saturation of OD's look to the AOA who no interest in stopping additional OD schools of opening up. 3 opened up past 3 yrs and 1 more ready to open doors in 08-2012. That should piss off many!
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True. A machine can not perform emergency care. Every field or medicine has its own issues. ER docs face turf war battles with nurses, who can perform many of those procedures.
But overall, I'd rather be fighting nurses than fighting the machine!
Coastal Contacts Inc. (TSX:COA) (Stockholm:COA), the planet's biggest online eyewear company, announced today that during the month of January, 2012 it set a new service record for made-to-order prescription eyeglasses. Coastal reduced the average time from order placement by the customer to shipment to 0.7 days.
"We believe that making and shipping prescription eyeglasses in less than one day is a standard that defines the category and places Coastal in a unique position," stated
Roger Hardy, Coastal's Founder and CEO."
Steve Bochen, COO commented, "Customers are telling us that speed matters. By shipping eyeglasses in less than a day we experienced a significant drop in status calls to our Customer Care Center. We have built a virtuous cycle of performance and will strive to keep raising the bar in order to enhance the customer experience."
Coastal also reports that its North American hub shipped 83,066 prescription eyeglasses during the month of January, 2012, compared with 38,207 eyeglasses during the same period in 2011, an increase of 117%.
"We believe that making and shipping prescription eyeglasses in less than one day is a standard that defines the category and places Coastal in a unique position," stated
Roger Hardy, Coastal's Founder and CEO."
Steve Bochen, COO commented, "Customers are telling us that speed matters. By shipping eyeglasses in less than a day we experienced a significant drop in status calls to our Customer Care Center. We have built a virtuous cycle of performance and will strive to keep raising the bar in order to enhance the customer experience."
Coastal also reports that its North American hub shipped 83,066 prescription eyeglasses during the month of January, 2012, compared with 38,207 eyeglasses during the same period in 2011, an increase of 117%.
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If this doesn't solidify every "negative" post made about the future of optometry for those who are entering the profession right now, then I truly don't know what would....
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Damn, you beat me to it! I was going to say if these students and young ODs (myself included) still think that you all are just the ODs who "didn't make it" and this profession is worth the $150-$200K debt load, then they clearly can not analyze anything at all.
Time never turns back either...
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Damn, you beat me to it! I was going to say if these students and young ODs (myself included) still think that you all are just the ODs who "didn't make it" and this profession is worth the $150-$200K debt load, then they clearly can not analyze anything at all.
Time never turns back either...
I agree, people should have both sides of the story before picking the profession.
Of course many students will say, "I am not going to be a eyeglass salesman anyway so it doesn't matter to me".
They probably figure they will be in a commercial setting and not selling glasses. But of course, they are selling glasses indirectly. They write the Rx to take over to the optical. (If they don't, they will be out in short order).
What is starting to happen now is that more and more people are by-passing the inconvienent step of seeing an eye doctor and just ordering their contact lenses and now their eyeglasses on-line (and drugs for that matter). We all know that this generation was brought up on computers and the internet so ordering stuff off the net is not foreign to them like it is our current 50-90 year olds we see.
So this will be a futher reduction of patients in an increasingly oversupplied occupational field.
There will be a few positions in the military and the VA where you won't have to worry about glasses too much. That's probably less than 1% though of the OD population though.
I wish it wasn't so.
They probably figure they will be in a commercial setting and not selling glasses. But of course, they are selling glasses indirectly. They write the Rx to take over to the optical. (If they don't, they will be out in short order).
What is starting to happen now is that more and more people are by-passing the inconvienent step of seeing an eye doctor and just ordering their contact lenses and now their eyeglasses on-line (and drugs for that matter). We all know that this generation was brought up on computers and the internet so ordering stuff off the net is not foreign to them like it is our current 50-90 year olds we see.
So this will be a futher reduction of patients in an increasingly oversupplied occupational field.
There will be a few positions in the military and the VA where you won't have to worry about glasses too much. That's probably less than 1% though of the OD population though.
I wish it wasn't so.
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- Jun 10, 2011
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- 1,137
- Reaction score
- 12
You're right, 35K doctors won't disappear, but their employment/work potential will do just that.....disappear. All of the changes taking place will lead to fewer ODs needed and wanted, all the while doubling the number of practicing optometrists. You don't have to be Richard Feynman to do the math on this one. Where will they all go?? The same place they're going now - the nearest big box retailer.
Bye, private practice optometry, it was nice knowing you.