Is DO competitive for MD EM residency?

[deleted614224]

Hey guys,

First year DO here in a respectable DO school. I am hoping for your opinions regarding EM competitiveness. From the grapevine, I heard that EM is getting more competitive (as a matter of fact, residencies are getting more competitive on the whole) and I would like to prepare for my battles. So, what do you say for a reasonably good applicant with hopefully > 230 for USMLE step 1 and all the paraphernalia? Be as honest as you can please, I want to see the reality as it is rather than what I want to it to be. I am trying to calibrate my perspective; while I am shooting for what I want, I don't want to be emotionally crash and treating whatever that I get at the end of days as second choice.

For your information, why I am so set for MD programs is my visa concern. I am Canadian and would love to live permanently in US (i.e. H1b visa), preferably somewhere warm.

Thanks

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[QualityProcess]

are you pre-med and shooting for MD, or are you a 1st year DO?

It doesn't really make much sense to say residencies are getting more competitive as a whole, because the number of students applying hasn't really changed an enormous amount and the number of residency positions hasn't really changed much either. This is an SDN-driven narrative. Just do your best and ask your questions again in your third year when, hopefully, the dust has settled regarding the single accreditation system. Don't worry about that, either. Just do your best.

 

[Elevencents]

Way too early to be prognosticating what your step score will be. Focus on classes and worry about this in two years.

 

[deleted614224]

are you pre-med and shooting for MD, or are you a 1st year DO?

It doesn't really make much sense to say residencies are getting more competitive as a whole, because the number of students applying hasn't really changed an enormous amount and the number of residency positions hasn't really changed much either. This is an SDN-driven narrative. Just do your best and ask your questions again in your third year when, hopefully, the dust has settled regarding the single accreditation system. Don't worry about that, either. Just do your best.

Oh, no, I am 1st year DO. I am only quoting USMLE since this is a must for a guy like me who is in need for visa sponsorship in the future. I am only asking because people keeps telling me to play my cards right and I want so much to do just that. I don't want to find myself with my pants down in the future. As well, I want inoculate myself to the realities right now for whatever may come. We are forewarned, therefore we are forearmed. But you, guys, are correct that I must really work my butts off right now.

 

[Thought Crime Spree]

Yes, you will be competitive if you do well on the boards and in your auditions 4th year, even at some place warm. In the mean time pass all of your classes, don't get in trouble, get involved in EM related stuff (EMIG, AAEM/RSA, EMRA, etc) and listen to some EM podcasts to absorb some knowledge about the field.

 

[Mad Jack]

Also, MAKE SURE YOU ROTATE AT A PROGRAM WITH A RESIDENCY, and do it as early as possible (late third year/early fourth year)! Many DO schools will have you do your rotation at programs that don't have residencies, which cannot fill out the SLOE that is required by most allo EM programs for your application to be considered.

 

[user3]

someone here received 20 allo EM interviews last year with 212/227 on steps. don't know if that is typical though.

 

[Bones 2020]

The DO doc I shadowed from Touro-CA did his residency at OHSU, along with some students from Brown and Yale. His advice: do well on your boards, learn as much as possible in your rotations, and impress during your audition

 

[Goro]

About 7% of my recent grads have gotten into ACGME residency programs.

Hey guys,

First year DO here in a respectable DO school. I am hoping for your opinions regarding EM competitiveness. From the grapevine, I heard that EM is getting more competitive (as a matter of fact, residencies are getting more competitive on the whole) and I would like to prepare for my battles. So, what do you say for a reasonably good applicant with hopefully > 230 for USMLE step 1 and all the paraphernalia? Be as honest as you can please, I want to see the reality as it is rather than what I want to it to be. I am trying to calibrate my perspective; while I am shooting for what I want, I don't want to be emotionally crash and treating whatever that I get at the end of days as second choice.

For your information, why I am so set for MD programs is my visa concern. I am Canadian and would love to live permanently in US (i.e. H1b visa), preferably somewhere warm.

Thanks

 

[JustPlainBill]

Ummm, no, D.O.'s are not competitive anywhere allopathic -- just ask 4 of my classmates -- 2 of which went to Parkland (with one being Chief resident -- and a good looking Chief at that) and another who went to Memorial Herman in Houston, with another going to Corpus -- and forget the new EM residency that opened at JPS where a majority of TCOM students rotate through --- so, yeah, just give up now and go into Family medicine -- or heck, save yourself some cash and go to a 2 year RN degree and go FNP === you can work in Minute Clinic ---

Go read the post in General Surgery for D.O.'s ---

 

[QueenJames]

^^ This..

 

[Jinxapotato]

Hey there OP, I am in pretty much the same situation as you, 1st year DO, Canadian, wanting EM.
From what I understand, EM alone is reachable if you do well. What MIGHT cripple us is the whole H1B thing, a lot of hospitals don't offer that, and when they do, they tend to be either super good (east coast big name hospitals) or super bad (who just want to fill their roster). But this is just unconfirmed rumor.
For now though, I would agree with the above posts: do your best in class, learn as much as you can, do well on boards, then shine your rotation, and worry about matching later. **** might still hit the fan but you will always keep more doors open by having worked hard.

 

[NurWollen]

Hey there OP, I am in pretty much the same situation as you, 1st year DO, Canadian, wanting EM.
From what I understand, EM alone is reachable if you do well. What MIGHT cripple us is the whole H1B thing, a lot of hospitals don't offer that, and when they do, they tend to be either super good (east coast big name hospitals) or super bad (who just want to fill their roster). But this is just unconfirmed rumor.
For now though, I would agree with the above posts: do your best in class, learn as much as you can, do well on boards, then shine your rotation, and worry about matching later. **** might still hit the fan but you will always keep more doors open by having worked hard.

Do you plan on returning to Canada to practice? Because it's my understanding that the vast majority of EDs in Canada are staffed by family doctors. Don't do a 2 year FM residency followed by a 1 year EM fellowship? I've read that since FM is three years in the US, you don't need the fellowship.

 

[Jinxapotato]

Do you plan on returning to Canada to practice? Because it's my understanding that the vast majority of EDs in Canada are staffed by family doctors. Don't do a 2 year FM residency followed by a 1 year EM fellowship? I've read that since FM is three years in the US, you don't need the fellowship.

I have been told about that pathway as well. In addition, family physicians certified in the US don't even need to take the liscencing exam again in some provinces. However, "officially" you are still a family medicine doc, was wondering if that will make you earn less (despite doing similar if not same jobs)?

In addition I would still prefer to practice in the US...the tax rate in Canada is just ridiculous (hefty 40% off your income, in my province at least...), and they are still planning to raise the tax rate for anyone making more than 200k per year

 

[68PGunner]

Nope, you're not competitive. As a DO, you are second class citizen relative to your MD counterpart. Just save yourself the trouble and prepare your fate as a Family Practice Physician years from now.

 

[jw3600]

Ummm, no, D.O.'s are not competitive anywhere allopathic -- just ask 4 of my classmates -- 2 of which went to Parkland (with one being Chief resident -- and a good looking Chief at that) and another who went to Memorial Herman in Houston, with another going to Corpus -- and forget the new EM residency that opened at JPS where a majority of TCOM students rotate through --- so, yeah, just give up now and go into Family medicine -- or heck, save yourself some cash and go to a 2 year RN degree and go FNP === you can work in Minute Clinic ---

Go read the post in General Surgery for D.O.'s ---

Nope, you're not competitive. As a DO, you are second class citizen relative to your MD counterpart. Just save yourself the trouble and prepare your fate as a Family Practice Physician years from now.

Is anyone else sick of this trope? Being hyperbolic in the OTHER direction doesn't change the fact DO students do face some challenges in the ACGME match.

 

[68PGunner]

Is anyone else sick of this trope? Being hyperbolic in the OTHER direction doesn't change the fact DO students do face some challenges in the ACGME match.

I'm perfectly fine with being a Family Practice doc. Maybe you should quit now and reapply to a MD school because you won't ever get the specialty of your choice as a DO.

 

[jw3600]

I'm perfectly fine with being a Family Practice doc. Maybe you should quit now and reapply to a MD school because you won't ever get the specialty of your choice as a DO.

The quality of posting in the Osteo forum is just so much worse.

 

[Rekt]

Is anyone else sick of this trope? Being hyperbolic in the OTHER direction doesn't change the fact DO students do face some challenges in the ACGME match.

Probably because everyone already knows that we do. All you can do is do your best on boards. Set up your audition rotations at places that matter. Get some good SLOEs (for EM).

But, I'm guessing about three-to-four years from now, EM will be a reach specialty for DO students.

 

[68PGunner]

The quality of posting in the Osteo forum is just so much worse.

Yup, we're inferior in every way, including the quality of posts on our forum.

 

[68PGunner]

Probably because everyone already knows that we do. All you can do is do your best on boards. Set up your audition rotations at places that matter. Get some good SLOEs (for EM).

But, I'm guessing about three-to-four years from now, EM will be a reach specialty for DO students.

You're giving us too much credits. I think 3-4 years from now, family practice will also be a reach for DO students. It doesn't matter though. I'm will happy regardless knowing that I will donate about one year worth of salary from my current side gig ($250-300K) just to pursue my dream of being a doctor.

 

[jw3600]

You're giving us too much credits. I think 3-4 years from now, family practice will also be a reach for DO students. It doesn't matter though. I'm will happy regardless knowing that I will donate about one year worth of salary from my current side gig ($250-300K) just to pursue my dream of being a doctor.

Wut.

This feels like dialogue with a chimpanzee.

 

[68PGunner]

Wut.

This feels like dialogue with a chimpanzee.

I think it's a reflection of my personal opinion of you. You certainly don't deserve better.

 

[Jinxapotato]

aaaaand how did this thread become a war zone...?

 

[user3]

Probably because everyone already knows that we do. All you can do is do your best on boards. Set up your audition rotations at places that matter. Get some good SLOEs (for EM).

But, I'm guessing about three-to-four years from now, EM will be a reach specialty for DO students.

EM seems really hot right now, especially among DO students. wonder when the bubble will burst...

 

[KP2AZ]

aaaaand how did this thread become a war zone...?

I believe the answer is "what is Sarcasm?" We medical students can be a sassy bunch. I read the first few post and then scrolled down...I agree with you @Jinxapotato , this escalated quickly.

 

[MattSmith45]

I assume you'd have to be above average for EM, and well above average especially for MD EM.

I've heard that being average or below average at a DO school is likely going to lead to being a primary care doctor. Now a lot of people want that but for anyone that doesn't, it's a pretty shocking realization. So that's why I think a DO applicant is definitely competitive for an MD EM residency, but he/she better be above average.

 

[Jinxapotato]

I assume you'd have to be above average for EM, and well above average especially for MD EM.

I've heard that being average or below average at a DO school is likely going to lead to being a primary care doctor. Now a lot of people want that but for anyone that doesn't, it's a pretty shocking realization. So that's why I think a DO applicant is definitely competitive for an MD EM residency, but he/she better be above average.

Do you refer to above avg as in "above avg in class (ie.how you do compared to people in your class)" or "above EM avg in term of board score (MD need a 230 and you need a 240 type of thing)"?

 

[cryhavoc]

Isn't every DO residency going to be a allopathic residency now, as in open to them? Thus I'm assuming we'll need the scores to get into a MD residency to get into a DO one soon, what with competition. Am I incorrect?

 

[Adamb83]

Yes, DO students can be competitive for Allo EM residencies. However, you have to be better than your allopathic counterparts. I'm a DO student applying EM right now, 250+ on both Steps, and currently have 15 interview invites out of 75 applications. Almost all of these programs are traditionally DO friendly. I have MD friends with lower board scores with more invites from more competitive programs. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that there isn't a DO bias- there definitely is at some of the academic institutions. That being said, if you study hard, do well throughout your clerkships, score well on Steps, there is absolutely no reason you can't get a large number of invites. The most important thing is to do EM rotations as early as humanly possible to get your SLOES. PD's take a long time to get them in, and if your application is incomplete it will put you at a tremendous disadvantage. Try to do rotation at the end of your third year if your school allows you. Also try to do well on your away rotations. People will go to bat for you if you're likable and hard working. Feel free to PM as you approach third year if you have any questions. EM applicants have unique challenges that people going into other specialities don't necessarily face.

 

[JustPlainBill]

Is anyone else sick of this trope? Being hyperbolic in the OTHER direction doesn't change the fact DO students do face some challenges in the ACGME match.

I believe you mean "tripe"? And no, I'm not sick of it yet...in fact, I'm just getting warmed up ----

My point is that this has been debated for aeons in the med student forums by a bunch of people who's life experience is generally high school -- college-- medical school --- who think they have a clue as to what it takes to get a job where you don't have to ask,"Would you like fries with that?" ----

I'm just trying to say that if you go in with the attitude that the door is closed, you're doomed already --- if you're in medical school, especially if you're the average age of a medical student (20s), you've been given a ticket to wide open possibilities -- don't screw it up by limiting yourself based on what you think ---

 

[user3]

Yes, DO students can be competitive for Allo EM residencies. However, you have to be better than your allopathic counterparts. I'm a DO student applying EM right now, 250+ on both Steps, and currently have 15 interview invites out of 75 applications. Almost all of these programs are traditionally DO friendly. I have MD friends with lower board scores with more invites from more competitive programs. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that there isn't a DO bias- there definitely is at some of the academic institutions. That being said, if you study hard, do well throughout your clerkships, score well on Steps, there is absolutely no reason you can't get a large number of invites. The most important thing is to do EM rotations as early as humanly possible to get your SLOES. PD's take a long time to get them in, and if your application is incomplete it will put you at a tremendous disadvantage. Try to do rotation at the end of your third year if your school allows you. Also try to do well on your away rotations. People will go to bat for you if you're likable and hard working. Feel free to PM as you approach third year if you have any questions. EM applicants have unique challenges that people going into other specialities don't necessarily face.

Its funny how people will call some specialties "DO friendly" but then later qualify that with "if you do well on boards"...

The term "DO friendly" phrase is misleading and implies being essentially viewed as equal with USMD students. This is simply not the case in any ACGME specialty.

 

[Jinxapotato]

Its funny how people will call some specialties "DO friendly" but then later qualify that with "if you do well on boards"...

The term "DO friendly" phrase is misleading and implies being essentially viewed as equal with USMD students. This is simply not the case in any ACGME specialty.

I think DO are viewed equal if not better in PM&R

 

[iwillnevergiveup]

I think DO are viewed equal if not better in PM&R

Yes. Thanks to our OMM training I guess.

 

[jw3600]

I believe you mean "tripe"? And no, I'm not sick of it yet...in fact, I'm just getting warmed up ----

My point is that this has been debated for aeons in the med student forums by a bunch of people who's life experience is generally high school -- college-- medical school --- who think they have a clue as to what it takes to get a job where you don't have to ask,"Would you like fries with that?" ----

I'm just trying to say that if you go in with the attitude that the door is closed, you're doomed already --- if you're in medical school, especially if you're the average age of a medical student (20s), you've been given a ticket to wide open possibilities -- don't screw it up by limiting yourself based on what you think ---

No. I do not.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)

You are literally putting words in my mouth. I said I don't think it's unreasonable to speak of challenges DOs might face. You are acting like I said the end is near. If I am training for a marathon I think it's ok to know I'm not going to place in the top 1%. Acknowledging that fact does not mean I will not put forth my best effort. A little perspective is not a bad thing in this case.