Is it impossible to score an A on a Bio I class?

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Guise. Maybe people have different opinions on types of testing methods--and that's not a big deal.
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J Senpai said:
Guise. Maybe people have different opinions on types of testing methods--and that's not a big deal.
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Sorry, I just don't like somebody telling me over and over again that she thinks my own assessment of test that I took and she didn't must be wrong.
 
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Cotterpin said:
Here's a metaphor for what's happening. You're saying "I don't believe that zebras exist. It's just a horse standing in weird shadows." And then I'm like, "No, I have definitely seen a bunch of zebras in person and they are real." And then you're like, "Ehhhhhhhh, I'm very skeptical." WTF.
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this metaphor made me cry from laughing haha.
 
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Cotterpin said:
Sorry, I just don't like somebody telling me over and over again that she thinks my own assessment of test that I took and she didn't must be wrong.
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Again, the word 'must' is very misleading here, as is 'wrong'.

I am saying that your assessment of a test you took 'could' be 'different than mine would have been.'

Cotterpin said:
Here's a metaphor for what's happening. You're saying "I don't believe that zebras exist. It's just a horse standing in weird shadows." And then I'm like, "No, I have definitely seen a bunch of zebras in person and they are real." And then you're like, "Ehhhhhhhh, I'm very skeptical." WTF.
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Right, when you set up your example using something that clearly exists, I seem unreasonable.
Now try the same conversation, only set it up using something that clearly doesn't exist:

"I don't believe that unicorns exist. I've had people try to point unicorns out to me before and it was always an optical illusion"
And then you're like "No, I have definitely seen a bunch of unicorns in person and they are real."
And then I'm like, "Ehhhhhhh, I'm skeptical."

In this version, you seem unreasonable.

This discussion is about something that is neither as widely accepted as a zebra nor disbelieved as a unicorn, so we're both stuck looking at it from our own perspectives based on what we individually think is real. I'm still willing to accept that it could be either of the above, whereas you're insistent that your framing is the accurate one and therefore I'm either stupid or just a dick.
 
Cotterpin said:
Here's a metaphor for what's happening. You're saying "I don't believe that zebras exist. It's just a horse standing in weird shadows." And then I'm like, "No, I have definitely seen a bunch of zebras in person and they are real." And then you're like, "Ehhhhhhhh, I'm very skeptical." WTF.
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as if me telling you I saw a real unicorn would be met by something other than skepticism? You've clearly just had different educational experiences. My n=1 is that I've never had a MC test with below an 80 raw median, and my default assumption if I heard a MC test proctored to good students had a 50 median would be that it was a badly written test or somehow caught the students off guard (eg was totally different style than practice exams).
 
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But unicorns do exist I saw one on the internet.
 
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mehc012 said:
Again, the word 'must' is very misleading here, as is 'wrong'.

I am saying that your assessment of a test you took 'could' be 'different than mine would have been.'


Right, when you set up your example using something that clearly exists, I seem unreasonable.
Now try the same conversation, only set it up using something that clearly doesn't exist:

"I don't believe that unicorns exist. I've had people try to point unicorns out to me before and it was always an optical illusion"
And then you're like "No, I have definitely seen a bunch of unicorns in person and they are real."
And then I'm like, "Ehhhhhhh, I'm skeptical."

In this version, you seem unreasonable.

This discussion is about something that is neither as widely accepted as a zebra nor disbelieved as a unicorn, so we're both stuck looking at it from our own perspectives based on what we individually think is real. I'm still willing to accept that it could be either of the above, whereas you're insistent that your framing is the accurate one and therefore I'm either stupid or just a dick.
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If you think a difficult multiple choice test is as unbelievable as a unicorn, then I'm leaning towards you being stupid. All I'm trying to get you to admit here is that multiple choice tests can be legitimately hard. And you can't even say, "Yeah, maybe. If you say so" without qualifying it. You just keep going, "Nahhhhhhh, I think it's more likely that it's actually an effed up test and you just can't see that." You have no basis for that.
 
FWIW I went to a state school and for the "hard" MC bio exams, the mean was usually in the low 70's. So, if you adjust for a school with a higher caliber student, like WUSTL, then it makes perfect sense for efle never to have seen a mean on a multiple choice exam below 80.

@Cotterpin Whether or not MC exams are difficult is relative to the person you ask. What is difficult for you may not be difficult for others and what you do effortlessly may be grueling for everyone else. There really is no way to say that MC are objectively as difficult as free-response exams and visa-versa. For some reason I have a problem with linear algebra. Don't ask me why, I just do.

What seems clear is that you might be in the minority opinion in this thread, which is fine. If she, personally, has never experienced a difficult MC exam, then of course she is going to be skeptical when you claim otherwise. I don't know why you are getting so heated over someone else holding a different opinion.

And c'mon, I seriously doubt mehc is "stupid" considering that she has a 40+ MCAT score:laugh:
 
You guys have never had a multiple choice test with an average at 60 or below? What the hell were your physics classes then? I'm pretty sure our class average on physics exams (MC tests) was always around 55-60%. Some questions were just insanely hard and our professors told us to save them for the end because most of the class wouldn't have time for them. It wasn't a poorly written exam...just a lot of hard questions that took a lot of thinking to figure out where to even start.

Idk, personally I prefer free-response exams because I could always BS an answer for some credit. With MC you're just flat out wrong lol. Personal preference though.
 
ZedsDed said:
FWIW I went to a state school and for the "hard" MC bio exams, the mean was usually in the low 70's. So, if you adjust for a school with a higher caliber student, like WUSTL, then it makes perfect sense for efle never to have seen a mean on a multiple choice exam below 80.

@Cotterpin Whether or not MC exams are difficult is relative to the person you ask. What is difficult for you may not be difficult for others and what you do effortlessly may be grueling for everyone else. There really is no way to say that MC are objectively as difficult as free-response exams and visa-versa. For some reason, I have a problem with linear algebra. Don't ask me why, I just do.

What seems clear is that you might be in the minority opinion in this thread, which is fine. If she, personally, has never experienced a difficult MC exam, then of course she is going to be skeptical when you claim otherwise. I don't know why you are getting so heated over someone else holding a different opinion.
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Tbh I think it's relative to the exam, not the person you ask. There were plenty of exams at my school, which is competitive, where no one broke 80%.

This is a dumb argument though and I just popped in to complain about physucks ;)
 
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ZedsDed said:
FWIW I went to a state school and for the "hard" MC bio exams, the mean was usually in the low 70's. So, if you adjust for a school with a higher caliber student, like WUSTL, then it makes perfect sense for efle never to have seen a mean on a multiple choice exam below 80.

@Cotterpin Whether or not MC exams are difficult is relative to the person you ask. What is difficult for you may not be difficult for others and what you do effortlessly may be grueling for everyone else. There really is no way to say that MC are objectively as difficult as free-response exams and visa-versa. For some reason, I have a problem with linear algebra. Don't ask me why, I just do.

What seems clear is that you might be in the minority opinion in this thread, which is fine. If she, personally, has never experienced a difficult MC exam, then of course she is going to be skeptical when you claim otherwise. I don't know why you are getting so heated over someone else holding a different opinion.

And c'mon, I seriously doubt mehc is "stupid" considering that she has a 40+ MCAT score:laugh:
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Because saying, "I have been in classes where the average was 50 - 60 on multiple choice tests and it wasn't because they were written in this screwed up way you're assuming" isn't an opinion. It's what happened.

Also, if multiple choice tests can't be difficult, then I don't see why I should respect mehc's 40+ score. Right? According to her logic, she could still be quite dumb and get that score.
 
Affiche said:
You guys have never had a multiple choice test with an average at 60 or below? What the hell were your physics classes then? I'm pretty sure our class average on physics exams (MC tests) was always around 55-60%. Some questions were just insanely hard and our professors told us to save them for the end because most of the class wouldn't have time for them. It wasn't a poorly written exam...just a lot of hard questions that took a lot of thinking to figure out where to even start.

Idk, personally I prefer free-response exams because I could always BS an answer for some credit. With MC you're just flat out wrong lol. Personal preference though.
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1.) All my physics exams were free response. In most of my classes, excess information or "BS answers" as you put it, were grounds for deducting points. One time the class average was 30% for that very reason :eek: :laugh:

2) Where did you get accepted?! Congrats!

3) Your new username means "poster" in French:laugh:
 
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Cotterpin said:
Because saying, "I have been in classes where the average was 50 - 60 on multiple choice tests and it wasn't because they were written in this screwed up way you're assuming" isn't an opinion. It's what happened.
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Whether or not the exam is "screwed up" is an opinion though. I agree that it's a bit silly to speculate on an exam one has never taken in a class one was never in.
 
ZedsDed said:
Whether or not the exam is "screwed up" is an opinion though. I agree that it's a bit silly to speculate on an exam one has never taken in a class one was never in.
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This is what I'm saying. Why on earth does she think that she knows anything at all about tests she never took? It just gets under my skin.

What I'm saying about "screwed up" is that she gave me (multiple times) a specific explanation of the way these tests she hasn't taken were probably poorly written. And she's wrong. She doesn't even know what subject I'm talking about.
 
Cotterpin said:
This is what I'm saying. Why on earth does she think that she knows anything at all about tests she never took? It just gets under my skin.
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Clearly. I doubt she meant it to come across that way though.
 
ZedsDed said:
Clearly. I doubt she meant it to come across that way though.
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Well, it does. She consistently argues with me in a way that annoys the **** out of me.
 
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Is it bad I read my bio text book for fun.. lol
 
If I told you I had an intro writing class in which nobody earned above a C, it would not be outlandish for you to assume the professor had unreasonable expectations for novice writers just because you didn't personally experience it. Similarly if you tell me a bunch of smart tryhard students took an MC test and the majority failed, it is plenty reasonable for us to be skeptical that it was a clearly written and valid test.

This is certainly one of those arguments for the sake of argument though (just the way I like it)
 
ZedsDed said:
1.) All my physics exams were free response. In most of my classes, excess information or "BS answers" as you put it, were grounds for deducting points. One time the class average was 30% for that very reason :eek: :laugh:

2) Where did you get accepted?! Congrats!

3) Your new username means "poster" in French:laugh:
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1. I think I'm just better at free-response than MC. Like I said, personal preference
2. I'll PM you! And thanks!
3. I know! It's a pun, get it? I'm a post-er on this forum lolz. But it's my favorite french word too from an inside joke in college :)
 
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Affiche said:
I know! It's a pun, get it? I'm a post-er on this forum lolz. But it's my favorite french word too from an inside joke in college :)
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I love puns! They do get a lot of hate though...
images

Personally I think they're just jealous of our badass sense of humor:p
 
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Wouldn't say it's impossible. Just put in the time, focus, and get help when you need it. I'd check out the Khan academy videos if you're having trouble with the concepts.
 
Turkishking said:
:wideyed:
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Dude, you're a freshman in college. You are literally surrounded by sexy people and alcohol.

Live a little!

(Not that I condone underage drinking...)
 
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Cotterpin said:
If you think a difficult multiple choice test is as unbelievable as a unicorn, then I'm leaning towards you being stupid. All I'm trying to get you to admit here is that multiple choice tests can be legitimately hard. And you can't even say, "Yeah, maybe. If you say so" without qualifying it. You just keep going, "Nahhhhhhh, I think it's more likely that it's actually an effed up test and you just can't see that." You have no basis for that.
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Dude, I have repeatedly said "maybe you're right".
I'm sorry that that is not enough for you and that I must change my own opinion to boot.

The unicorn thing is a rhetorical device meant to illustrate how the same conversation can come across drastically differently depending on the assumptions you have going into it. I already said that this case was clearly middle-ground, neither a zebra nor a unicorn (aka it is neither a given fact that it exists nor a clear impossibility).

Please stop taking my unwillingness to form a firm opinion on something I have never seen as evidence that I have already formed a firm opinion on it.

ZedsDed said:
Whether or not the exam is "screwed up" is an opinion though. I agree that it's a bit silly to speculate on an exam one has never taken in a class one was never in.
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Right, only that's the premise of this entire thread. OP asked a bunch of people who have never seen their exam whether the exam is impossibly hard. We began having discussions on the subject, bringing up various exams we've taken, etc. Is this a silly/pointless thread? Youbetcha. But such speculation is entirely reasonable in this context.

Cotterpin said:
This is what I'm saying. Why on earth does she think that she knows anything at all about tests she never took? It just gets under my skin.

What I'm saying about "screwed up" is that she gave me (multiple times) a specific explanation of the way these tests she hasn't taken were probably poorly written. And she's wrong. She doesn't even know what subject I'm talking about.
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Look, I'm simply trying to explain why you coming in and anecdotally saying "nah man, these insanely difficult MC exams exist" is not by itself sufficient for me to completely reverse the opinion I've built up from my own cumulative experiences.

- I've had discussions with classmates, where we both took the same test, where we had different opinions on whether the test was hard, or poorly written, etc. It's hardly unusual for people to have different assessments of the same exam.
- I've had exams where the average was 50-60.
- I have never yet seen an exam with an average that low that was well written and difficult, rather than poorly written or poorly correlated to the course.

So, while I admit that my experience is not all-encompassing and therefore it is certainly possible that insanely difficult MC exams exist, an explanation exists for your anecdote that better fits my own observations up to this point. Being human, I tend to consider the explanation that fits with my own cumulative experiences to be the more likely one, though I am willing to consider other possibilities.

That's it. I am not insisting that you are wrong, I am merely not convinced that you are right. I am not claiming to know more about your exam than you do, only saying that it is entirely possible that I would not agree with your assessment were I in a position to actually make one on the same material. I do not think that you are an idiot, only that we may have different opinions on what constitutes a hard or well-written exam. I am not even asking you to change your opinion on the potential difficulty of MC exams, or arguing that you should, simply stating that mine is different.

The only one insisting that there even be a black/white or right/wrong is you, and yet you keep ascribing such opinions to me.
You have both called me an idiot and gotten upset at me for calling you an idiot when I did no such thing, which hardly seems fair.
 
mehc012 said:
Dude, I have repeatedly said "maybe you're right".
I'm sorry that that is not enough for you and that I must change my own opinion to boot.

The unicorn thing is a rhetorical device meant to illustrate how the same conversation can come across drastically differently depending on the assumptions you have going into it. I already said that this case was clearly middle-ground, neither a zebra nor a unicorn (aka it is neither a given fact that it exists nor a clear impossibility).

Please stop taking my unwillingness to form a firm opinion on something I have never seen as evidence that I have already formed a firm opinion on it.


Right, only that's the premise of this entire thread. OP asked a bunch of people who have never seen their exam whether the exam is impossibly hard. We began having discussions on the subject, bringing up various exams we've taken, etc. Is this a silly/pointless thread? Youbetcha. But such speculation is entirely reasonable in this context.


Look, I'm simply trying to explain why you coming in and anecdotally saying "nah man, these insanely difficult MC exams exist" is not by itself sufficient for me to completely reverse the opinion I've built up from my own cumulative experiences.

- I've had discussions with classmates, where we both took the same test, where we had different opinions on whether the test was hard, or poorly written, etc. It's hardly unusual for people to have different assessments of the same exam.
- I've had exams where the average was 50-60.
- I have never yet seen an exam with an average that low that was well written and difficult, rather than poorly written or poorly correlated to the course.

So, while I admit that my experience is not all-encompassing and therefore it is certainly possible that insanely difficult MC exams exist, an explanation exists for your anecdote that better fits my own observations up to this point. Being human, I tend to consider the explanation that fits with my own cumulative experiences to be the more likely one, though I am willing to consider other possibilities.

That's it. I am not insisting that you are wrong, I am merely not convinced that you are right. I am not claiming to know more about your exam than you do, only saying that it is entirely possible that I would not agree with your assessment were I in a position to actually make one on the same material. I do not think that you are an idiot, only that we may have different opinions on what constitutes a hard or well-written exam. I am not even asking you to change your opinion on the potential difficulty of MC exams, or arguing that you should, simply stating that mine is different.

The only one insisting that there even be a black/white or right/wrong is you, and yet you keep ascribing such opinions to me.
You have both called me an idiot and gotten upset at me for calling you an idiot when I did no such thing, which hardly seems fair.
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I didn't read all of this because I cannot muster the effort to care. You came into the thread with a strong stance on the ability of multiple choice test to be difficult. And then you have, for pages and pages, argued against the possibility that other people might have valid experiences with difficult MC tests. Days later, throwing in a couple "you might be right, but I seriously doubt you are right because it's more likely that blah, blah, blah, [talking at length about things you haven't experienced]. . . " is not my idea of being flexible in your opinions. If you're so open to the possibility that MC tests can be hard, why didn't you drop it last week?

Calling you dumb was a joke, by the way. I don't think you're dumb. I just don't like you.
 
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ZedsDed said:
Dude, you're a freshman in college. You are literally surrounded by sexy people and alcohol.

Live a little!

(Not that I condone underage drinking...)
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I'm always busy with something. Either I have to volunteer or work on something else.
 
Idk if my advice will be useful because surely it is generic. For hard classes I just read the chapters or power points, and if it's a class involving problems (organic chem, genetics, etc.) then I do every problem I can possibly do until I can work like 75% of it in my mind. Just remember man, time and pressure build a pearl. They key is to not give up.
 
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Turkishking said:
Saturday and Sunday. 4 hours each morning, plus I applied to work as a Scribe...
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Perhaps your study methods are not the most efficient. You should have plenty of free time.
 
ZedsDed said:
Perhaps your study methods are not the most efficient. You should have plenty of free time.
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Probably, either way I'm sure there will be a curve in the end to get me to an A or A-, considering this exam average was a 58... I'm surprised, I thought this one was one of the easier ones
 
Turkishking said:
Probably, either way I'm sure there will be a curve in the end to get me to an A or A-, considering this exam average was a 58... I'm surprised, I thought this one was one of the easier ones
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Assuming a normal distribution...if you are comfortably 1.3+ SD over the mean then you are probably fine.
 
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ZedsDed said:
Assuming a normal distribution...if you are comfortably 1.3+ SD over the mean then you are probably fine.
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Exactly. OP, figure out your z score. It's all about where you are on the curve. If the class average was 58 and you got an 80, I'm sure you're somewhere in the A range.
 
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Cotterpin said:
I didn't read all of this because I cannot muster the effort to care. You came into the thread with a strong stance on the ability of multiple choice test to be difficult. And then you have, for pages and pages, argued against the possibility that other people might have valid experiences with difficult MC tests.
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Again, I haven't argued against the possibility. It is possible; it's just not what I think is going on.
Cotterpin said:
Days later, throwing in a couple "you might be right, but I seriously doubt you are right
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Just because I admit the possibility that my opinion is wrong doesn't mean I am obligated to change my opinion.
Cotterpin said:
[talking at length about things you haven't experienced]
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I have never talked at length about your experience. I have described my own experiences and explained how they affect my reaction to your anecdote.
Cotterpin said:
If you're so open to the possibility that MC tests can be hard, why didn't you drop it last week?
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Because again, being open to the idea that I am wrong doesn't mean that I think I am wrong. To me, leaving it as "Hmm...you might be right, but you haven't convinced me" is dropping it. There's nowhere to go from there. I wasn't trying to change your mind further. You were the one who was unsatisfied with that as an ending and continued hounding the issue, trying to get me to unequivocally change my opinion.
Cotterpin said:
Calling you dumb was a joke, by the way. I don't think you're dumb. I just don't like you.
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Ohhh, a joke that's insulting if misunderstood and only funny if you think I'm a dick (which makes it insulting that way too). That's much better. Come on, man...uncalled for. I have tried really hard to avoid insulting you...apparently I have failed because you are reading insults and "you're wrong!"s into everything, but at least I tried. Please extend me the same courtesy.
 
Cotterpin said:
Exactly. OP, figure out your z score. It's all about where you are on the curve. If the class average was 58 and you got an 80, I'm sure you're somewhere in the A range.
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I got a 90.. I thought it was extremely simple. I guess not. Most people bombed it yet again.. I really don't understand how. I might have ruined the curve though :p
 
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Turkishking said:
I got a 90.. I thought it was extremely simple. I guess not. Most people bombed it yet again.. I really don't understand how. I might have ruined the curve though :p
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I would avoid telling your friends that you were at the top of the curve. You might be surprised how people react.
 
mehc012 said:
Again, I haven't argued against the possibility. It is possible; it's just not what I think is going on. Just because I admit the possibility that my opinion is wrong doesn't mean I am obligated to change my opinion.I have never talked at length about your experience. I have described my own experiences and explained how they affect my reaction to your anecdote.
Because again, being open to the idea that I am wrong doesn't mean that I think I am wrong. To me, leaving it as "Hmm...you might be right, but you haven't convinced me" is dropping it. There's nowhere to go from there. I wasn't trying to change your mind further. You were the one who was unsatisfied with that as an ending and continued hounding the issue, trying to get me to unequivocally change my opinion.
Ohhh, a joke that's insulting if misunderstood and only funny if you think I'm a dick (which makes it insulting that way too). That's much better. Come on, man...uncalled for. I have tried really hard to avoid insulting you...apparently I have failed because you are reading insults and "you're wrong!"s into everything, but at least I tried. Please extend me the same courtesy.
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You have a way of phrasing things that, I think, comes off as invalidating others' experiences and opinions. Please just extend me the courtesy of not stubbornly arguing with me for days on end about bull****. This isn't the first time you've done it to me, but it's gonna be the last.
 
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Cotterpin said:
You have a way of phrasing things that, I think, comes off as invalidating others' experiences and opinions. Please just extend me the courtesy of not stubbornly arguing with me for days on end about bull****. This isn't the first time you've done it to me, but it's gonna be the last.
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Takes 2 to argue. If it's bothering you, you could...not. That's something that is as much your choice as my own. This isn't some action that I have done to you, it is something we both took part in. Hell, I tried to leave it neutral so we could both agree to disagree; it was you who was unwilling to accept that outcome.

The first statement, however, is true and very helpful. I am/will be working on it. Thanks!
 
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